Eldritch Knight

[Lateral]

Should I go with ten levels of that, or Battle Sorcerer?

How good is Eldritch Knight and what would make it better?

[Fax Celestis]

EK is better than BSorc in almost every fashion.

I personally prefer the Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) to the Eldritch Knight, but it's setting specific and requires more than the EK does.

[Lateral]

M'kay. Knight phantom has the wrong flavor. Is EK actually good though, or just better than Battle Sorcerer?

Not going for gish, just something to let this sorcerer fight in between spells. Mostly for flavor, but I want something simple as a prestige- hence, EK.

[Fouredged Sword]

I wouldn't shake a stick at it if you really want to be a gish. There are better options, but sometimes they are hard to get into. Ardent Savant and Abjurent champion are good options that up the defences of a wizard. Savant segways into champion as well. You can get the shield spell granting 10+ AC and free extended. Things get more crazy when you bring in sacred spells from BoED as there is a better armor spell there that is both force and abjuration. Just finishing both class progressions will net you 30-40 AC with 2 or 3 spells that last all day. Warweaver makes those spells effect the whole party so the fighter doesn't turn blue holding his breathe while the mage is untouchable.

As an arcane spellcaster there are just better options than physical armor for you to look at.

[Knaight]

The Eldritch Knight remains a competent caster throughout, and a competent warrior throughout, sure if it gets in a swordfight with a ToB class and doesn't use magic its going to die quickly, and if it gets in a magic duel with a full Wizard the same applies, but it makes a competent gish, or adds a decent combat ability to a caster. That said, if you really want a high powered Gish, the Abjurant Champion is a step up.

[lsfreak]

If you just want something for in between spells, I'd say grab one of the Reserve feats from Complete Mage. The damaging ones do 1d4 or 1d6 points of damage per level of a certain kind of spell (i.e. if you had Fireball, you'd do 3d6 damage; arguably a sorcerer with Heighten would just have his maximum spell level). There's different kinds; the acid and force ones are ranged touch attacks, fire is a one-square burst, lightning is a line, sonic is a touch, cold is a cone. EK means you're losing 2 levels (one for fighter, one from EK), and Abjurant Champion makes you use up a feat slot.

[Mando Knight]

M'kay. Knight phantom has the wrong flavor. Is EK actually good though, or just better than Battle Sorcerer?

Not going for gish, just something to let this sorcerer fight in between spells. Mostly for flavor, but I want something simple as a prestige- hence, EK.

Battle Sorcerer has more problems than plain Sorcerer without its benefits, in exchange for only being as competent a melee combatant as an unbuffed Cleric in light armor. Which is horrible for any gish, even more so a fullcaster who wants to occasionally fight without spells.

...Actually, melee is weak enough on its own that even just taking a single level of something to get the weapon proficiencies you want and then knowing the right buff spells means that you can make a workable not-quite-a-gish. If you want more than that, go all the way or you'll only weaken both parts of the build.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

M'kay. Knight phantom has the wrong flavor. Is EK actually good though, or just better than Battle Sorcerer?

Not going for gish, just something to let this sorcerer fight in between spells. Mostly for flavor, but I want something simple as a prestige- hence, EK.

What is this 'between spells' you speak of? There is no between spells. There is only 'full blast' and 'hide in rope trick'. :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, EK is pretty darn lousy. Better than Battle Sorcerer, but that isn't saying much, considering BS hurts your Spells Known list.

If you want something (slightly) more complicated, may I humbly suggest:

Paladin (there's variants for every alignment option)2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1 (from Complete Warrior)/Abjurant Champion5

There's a Variant for every alignment flavor of Paladin, so choose the one that is right for you. Paladin2 nets you Charisma (your casting stat) to ALL saving throws. As you will likely be pumping your Cha score as high as you possibly can... this is pretty good.

Sorcerer... well... yea. You want to be a caster, right?

Spellsword. Okay, it's a one-level dip. I know you don't want to get into anything complicated, but this is simple. It nets you BAB and Spellcasting, so you can get into Abjurant Champion next level. It also nets you a 10% reduction on Arcane Spell Failure. So you can wear Mithral Chain Shirt without worrying about spells fizzling.

Abjurant Champion. Full casting and full BAB, what's not to love? What's more, auto-extend Abjuration spells, and auto-quicken any abjuration spell equal to 1/2 AbChamp level (round up). So yea, auto-quicken on Dispel Magic? Yes, please.

[Lateral]

Okay, perfect. Eldritch Knight 10 it is!

[Haarkla]

Battle sorcerer is better than Eldritch Knight in almost every fashion except spells known.

An Eldrich Knight cant wear armour, is a spell level behind 1/2 the time, dosn't become a decent melee combatant until high levels (when magic dominates) and has far fewer hit points.

Flavour wise a battle sorcerer can both fight and cast spells, an eldritch knight is a wizard who can also fight a bit.

[Duke of URL]

Here's the skinny on EK: It generally represents a loss of 2 caster levels (1 to pick up martial weapon proficiency and 1 at EK level 1). It grants full BAB, good HP, and spellcasting on all levels (except that first), so it looks like a good idea.

Except, well, it really isn't. If you're casting spells, why do you care about whacking things with a sword? I mean, yeah, you could buff yourself and go to town, but wouldn't you be better off simply using fewer spells to turn to opposition into smoking ruin? Action economy is key, and "I win" is usually a better use of actions than "I poke it with a pointed stick".

Because EK does squat for ASF, you can't wear armor (without getting into the whole mithril twilight, yada, yada, yada) or use a shield, so you either have to invest in a lot of ASF reduction or spend more of your spell resources to keep that AC up. Or be a DEX-based fighter, which comparatively sucks.

To a large degree, Duskblade does it better, as you get the ability to wear some armor (up to medium) and you can channel touch spells as part of your melee attacks, which offsets the action economy issue. But of course, its spells aren't as powerful. By a longshot.

The changes we made for Boundless Horizons would translate directly to 3.x/PF in this case. Short version:

Pre-req: Proficient in all martial melee weapons ("melee" added for the benefit of ToB classes)

1: Bonus feat
2: ASF -10%, +1 spellcasting
3: Channel touch spell (standard action), +1 spellcasting
4: Bonus feat, +1 spellcasting
5: ASF -10% (-20% total), +1 spellcasting
6: Channel touch spell (full attack), +1 spellcasting
7: Bonus feat, +1 spellcasting
8: ASF -10% (-30% total), +1 spellcasting
9: Channel touch spell (all attacks), +1 spellcasting
10: Bonus feat, +1 spellcasting

Bonus feats come from the Fighter or Wizard bonus feat lists.

Channel touch spell:

3rd - melee attack as a standard action; if it hits, free action (no AoO) to use any touch spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less

6th - as 3rd, except that you may use it as part of a full attack action; you can only channel once per round, however, no matter how many successful attacks you make

9th - As 6th, except that all successful attacks you make until the start of your next turn channel the same spell

[Fax Celestis]

Battle sorcerer is better than Eldritch Knight in almost every fashion except spells known.

An Eldrich Knight cant wear armour, is a caster level behind 1/2 the time, dosn't become a decent melee combatant until high levels (when magic dominates) and has far fewer hit points.

Flavour wise a battle sorcerer can both fight and cast spells, an eldritch knight is a wizard who can also fight a bit.

A battle sorcerer has pitiful spell access, is a spell level behind half the time, and has medium BAB and poor saves.

It's a matter of taste. I prefer martial-heavy gishes to caster-heavy ones, so I prefer the EK.

[Kobold-Bard]

If your DM allows homebrew then try Krimm Blackleaf's ToB Eldritch Knight.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794

Same concept but MANEOUVERS!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Tengu_temp]

Do note that if you're in FR, or if your DM allows regional feats for everyone, you can take Militia (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Militia) and classify for EK and Knight Phantom as wizard 5, without losing a caster level.

The problem with EK is that wizards have very few worthwhile long-term or area combat buffs, so it's not a very good "strengthten myself with spells and then proceed with slaughter" class - clerics, duskblades and PrCs like Quickblade or Abjurent Champion are much better at it. And playing a gish as a guy who sometimes fires a fireball, sometimes hits things with a sword is a terrible idea in DND - you're a subpar caster and a subpar fighter, and there's nothing you can do really well.

[Shenanigans]

If you just want something for in between spells, I'd say grab one of the Reserve feats from Complete Mage. The damaging ones do 1d4 or 1d6 points of damage per level of a certain kind of spell (i.e. if you had Fireball, you'd do 3d6 damage; arguably a sorcerer with Heighten would just have his maximum spell level). There's different kinds; the acid and force ones are ranged touch attacks, fire is a one-square burst, lightning is a line, sonic is a touch, cold is a cone. EK means you're losing 2 levels (one for fighter, one from EK), and Abjurant Champion makes you use up a feat slot.
I thought Invisible Needle was a simple ranged attack, not ranged touch?

In any case, I think Eldritch Knight is a decent, fun class, especially if the flavor of Abjurant Champion isn't up your alley. If you can play as an Illumian, your power sigils will allow for a number of neat tricks, such as keeping your caster level up.