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Boci
2010-09-18, 09:19 PM
For my game set in a Trippyverse fallout, there are no tier 1 or 2 classes, so no cleric or favoured souls (or Deities, sorcerers and wizards, but that’s another story).
Now I know it is possible to have a game without divine casters, but I thought it would be nice to have the option. I was thinking of adapting the shugenja from Complete Divine, changing the name to Shamen and re-fluffing the clans to different learning techniques.
That should be relatively easy, but according to Kuroimaken here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=11qpgop77bno5a3dk3oa35geh7&topic=1002.20 the water and fire shugenja are tier 3, but earth and air is 4, so I need to tweak the latter two. Any suggestions on how to do this?

Starbuck_II
2010-09-18, 09:25 PM
Don't forget Adept (Tier 4), and Spirit Shaman (Tier 3).

FMArthur
2010-09-18, 09:26 PM
Hold on, have you considered Ardent and Divine Mind?


Don't forget Adept (Tier 4), and Spirit Shaman (Tier 3).

There's no way Spirit Shaman is Tier 3 with the Druid's spell list and its 'best of both worlds' blend of spontaneous and prepared casting. It's a solid T2.

Boci
2010-09-19, 08:16 AM
Ardent is an option, but I planned on using psionics differently, and I heard divine mind is pretty aweful. I have never been too fond of the Spirit Shaman and the prepared/spontenous aspect of their casting can make them quite complicated. Adept is an option but I would like something tier 3.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-19, 08:18 AM
There's no way Spirit Shaman is Tier 3 with the Druid's spell list and its 'best of both worlds' blend of spontaneous and prepared casting. It's a solid T2.

Actually, it's sub-Big 6. It actually can outshine the rest of Tier 2, warranting BG to put it either at the top of that Tier or the bottom of the Big 6.

Ernir
2010-09-19, 08:22 AM
Divine Bard?

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-19, 08:50 AM
Hold on, have you considered Ardent and Divine Mind?



There's no way Spirit Shaman is Tier 3 with the Druid's spell list and its 'best of both worlds' blend of spontaneous and prepared casting. It's a solid T2.

Errrr... I would disagree with that. That's not really "best of both world", as, yes, you can choose your spell list each day, but you're limited to three spells max per spell level. THREE! Depending on the composition of your group, it could be very difficult which spell to choose from.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-19, 10:38 AM
Exactly, it fits Tier 3 perfectly for those reasons.
Remember if it is possible for a Tier 3 to beat a Tier 2 than that is okay.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.


Tier 3 must specialize and will occassionally can solve encounter, but Spirit Shaman must plan spells out carefully.

Tier 2's are predictable: Spirit Shamans erratic casting known isn't. I mean, if you fight Spirits I guess it might be Tier 2.5 but that isn't common or campaign specific.

So I rate it solidly Tier 3: top Tier 3 but still Tier 3.

FMArthur
2010-09-19, 12:45 PM
The fact that it gets some of the most brokenly overpowered spells available through the Druid spell list means that it can't be tier 3. The fact that it only gets a small handful of them and the spells are often geared towards similar tasks keeps them tier 2.

This is essentially a player's handbook caster that gets player's handbook 9th level spells. We're talking Shapechange, Tsunami, the SNA line, and a large number of powerful combat buffs and several "lolno" save and lose battlefield control spells.

Don't tell me that a Deathstar that only shoots world-ending lasers is balanced because it only does one thing. That's what more or less defines Tier 2.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-19, 03:10 PM
Honestly, Binder makes for a good replacement for both/either divine and/or arcane casters in a world without tier 1s

Pechvarry
2010-09-19, 08:07 PM
Without going back and reading Shugenja very carefully, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with any variety of them pulling off tier 3 very well. I imagine they're closer to tier 4. Fire Shugenja seems like a weaker warmage offset by some utility. A Warmage with Trapfinding would probably help a party just as much. Likewise, Water Shuggies can heal but remember this part about the Tier 5 description: "In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed." Ergo, Healer. But I don't know how much crowd control they have. Probably enough to be reasonably competent without truly shining which, when mixed with situational healing, sounds 4-ish.

Thurbane
2010-09-19, 09:21 PM
Not sure what Tier the OA Shaman sits on...quite possibly 2. It has a decent spell list - it also depends how you interpret it's animal companion (if it is the same as the 3.5 Druid's AC, no way the class is tier 3)...

Divine Bard?
Another good idea.

Greenish
2010-09-19, 10:38 PM
Healer from Miniatures Handbook is divine, if my memory serves. Atrocious class for a PC though.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-19, 10:43 PM
Healer from Miniatures Handbook is divine, if my memory serves. Atrocious class for a PC though.

Every single spell it has is on the Cleric's list. It's class features largely suck, and can be outdone by a level-dip into Prestige Paladin.

Thurbane
2010-09-19, 10:57 PM
Marginally better than the Adept...:smallbiggrin:

Boci
2010-09-20, 08:28 PM
Okay, divine bards and healers it is. Thanks everyone.