View Full Version : Initiative and surprise round situations
ffone
2010-09-19, 06:14 AM
- The PCs all have Blink in effect and use it to (successfully) 'phase' through a thin door/wall into a room full of baddies. Do they get a surprise round?
- One PC uses Dimension Door to bring the rest of the party face to face with enemies (whom the PCs saw from a far distance; the enemies weren't aware of them.) Do the other PCs get a surprise round?
- the DMG tries to give 'surprise' example situations where the PCs open a door into a room full of baddies, and suggests the PCs get surprise if they did this knowing the baddies were inside (but not vice versa) and planning to go in an attack them (but the door-opening PC consumes his surprise action opening it); the baddies get surprise if they knew the PCs were going to come in (but not vice versa), such as using peepholes; no one gets a surprise round if meeting the other group is mutually unexpected.
But this last one makes me wonder - what's to stop PCs from simply constantly declaring, 'okay, let's assume that baddies are in the next room, now let's have one guy open the door and the rest rush in with surprise'? Is there some specific, crunchy sense of 'awareness' of the baddies? Like is having seen them already via Listen/Spot or line of sight or effect necessary (the DMG example gives the impression of opaque door and walls), or is having indirect knowledge of what's waiting (say, a detailed map that notes all the golem guards' positions) sufficient?
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 06:23 AM
- The PCs all have Blink in effect and use it to (successfully) 'phase' through a thin door/wall into a room full of baddies. Do they get a surprise round?
- One PC uses Dimension Door to bring the rest of the party face to face with enemies (whom the PCs saw from a far distance; the enemies weren't aware of them.) Do the other PCs get a surprise round?
- the DMG tries to give 'surprise' example situations where the PCs open a door into a room full of baddies, and suggests the PCs get surprise if they did this knowing the baddies were inside (but not vice versa) and planning to go in an attack them (but the door-opening PC consumes his surprise action opening it); the baddies get surprise if they knew the PCs were going to come in (but not vice versa), such as using peepholes; no one gets a surprise round if meeting the other group is mutually unexpected.
But this last one makes me wonder - what's to stop PCs from simply constantly declaring, 'okay, let's assume that baddies are in the next room, now let's have one guy open the door and the rest rush in with surprise'? Is there some specific, crunchy sense of 'awareness' of the baddies? Like is having seen them already via Listen/Spot or line of sight or effect necessary (the DMG example gives the impression of opaque door and walls), or is having indirect knowledge of what's waiting (say, a detailed map that notes all the golem guards' positions) sufficient?
No, there isn't any "crunchy sense of awareness of the baddies". If you are concerned about it, just assume that they can't declare to assume there are enemies on the other side, limiting their pre-combat preparations to guesswork.
Personally I'd say yes, that is what happens. If you specifically go into a room in attack mode (kick down the door weapon's raised) they get a suprised round. Or they could just use readied actions for the same result.
No, there isn't any "crunchy sense of awareness of the baddies". If you are concerned about it, just assume that they can't declare to assume there are enemies on the other side, limiting their pre-combat preparations to guesswork.
PC: Bob opens the door and I raise my crossbow to fire at any creature I see behind it.
What would happen then?
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 07:40 AM
PC: Bob opens the door and I raise my crossbow to fire at any creature I see behind it.
What would happen then?
He still enters surprised if whatever creature on the other side isn't. He has the advantage of not having to load nor draw his weapon.
This is an abstraction, just like the number of attacks in a round or the fact that things happen at the same time within a single round, even if people act in order.
If you want a reason, here's one:
He still doesn't know whether there is a creature there or not. He's going to waste time locating such a creature before aiming and firing.
It's as valid as any and even "none" since it fits the rule that the character has to know there is an enemy to avoid being surprised when engaging it.
He still doesn't know whether there is a creature there or not. He's going to waste time locating such a creature before aiming and firing.
Which he would likely need to do even if he knew there was a creature on the other side of the door.
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 07:55 AM
Which he would likely need to do even if he knew there was a creature on the other side of the door.
Again, abstraction. What if he heard or saw the creature on the other side? He'd have a better idea of where the blasted thing was, saving precious time.
Again, abstraction. What if he heard or saw the creature on the other side? He'd have a better idea of where the blasted thing was, saving precious time.
I know realism doesn't automatically = good, but I believe this is a case where it does. If you burst through a door, even if you do not know whats behind it, you have an advantage over whoever is on the other side of the door, unless they have readied themselves for some unknown enermy kicking it down.
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 08:02 AM
There are numerous reasons not to bust doors if you don't know what's on the other side :p
I'm not saying I agree with the specifics for surprise rounds, but I find the rule fine as it is.
The big thing is that the character must detect the enemy to avoid being surprised. Just assuming there is an enemy shouldn't give him an advantage towards action availability other than the usual preparation (unsheathe weapons, cast appropriate spells, enter formation).
Largely this is done because otherwise ambushes lose a lot of power and players can handwave their character's situation (never tired lulz), effectively metagaming an immunity to surprise rounds.
There are numerous reasons not to bust doors if you don't know what's on the other side :p
I'm not saying I agree with the specifics for surprise rounds, but I find the rule fine as it is.
The big thing is that the character must detect the enemy to avoid being surprised. Just assuming there is an enemy shouldn't give him an advantage towards action availability other than the usual preparation (unsheathe weapons, cast appropriate spells, enter formation).
Do you really want characters jumping through loop holes to gain a suprise round?
Casters hands secret note to DM: Using my metamagic rod of silence I cast ghost sounds origionating from the door, imitating brief footsteps.
Party: Oh, theres something behind the door!
Largely this is done because otherwise ambushes lose a lot of power and players can handwave their character's situation (never tired lulz), effectively metagaming an immunity to surprise rounds.
This is completly different. You cannot gain immunity to suprise rounds by just assuming there are monster near by. Now if the player tells me he is assuming a monster is going to appear from exactly where it is hiding then yes, the suprtise round is negated, but only with that level of specificy.
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 08:11 AM
Do you really want characters jumping through loop holes to gain a suprise round?
Casters hands secret note to DM: Using my metamagic rod of silence I cast ghost sounds origionating from the door, imitating brief footsteps.
Party: Oh, theres something behind the door!
This is completly different. You cannot gain immunity to suprise rounds by just assuming there are monster near by. Now if the player tells me he is assuming a monster is going to appear from exactly where it is hiding then yes, the suprtise round is negated, but only with that level of specificy.
That's your houserule.
That's your houserule.
As your "immunity to suprise rounds" was a houserule.
Would you mind clarifying how you would handle the silent ghost sound trick?
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 08:27 AM
They are aware of the ghost sound, not the relevant creatures.
And nothing says the enemies aren't aware of their ghost sound.
They are ready to act against an enemy that doesn't exist, and waste their first round on that.
Pick one.
They are aware of the ghost sound, not the relevant creatures.
Which changes what exactly? They hear a noise and believe there is a creature on the other side. Assuming there is actually a creature on the otherside, how is that any different than actually hearing the creature move?
And nothing says the enemies aren't aware of their ghost sound.
They are ready to act against an enemy that doesn't exist, and waste their first round on that.
Only if they wear the ghost sound through the door.
Reis Tahlen
2010-09-19, 08:54 AM
I would say it's not houserule, it's common sense.
Who in his right mind would enter a room in a dungeon, where the last 15 rooms were filled with ennemies, and would not be the least prepared to an attack?
If you want your baddies surprise the group, don't put them in the middle of the room. They, too, can hear the players crashing trough the doors and slaughtering the monsters; they can hide into the room, when the players enter, they find no one, collective sighing, anf then BAM! MONSTER SMASH!
WarKitty
2010-09-19, 10:01 AM
That actually doesn't sound unreasonable. If the PC's are prepared to attack when they open the door, and the baddies aren't, the PC's get a surprise round. However the baddies have to be in plain sight and unaware of the PC's for this to work. If they are not in plain sight, the PC's may spend their surprise round on spot/listen checks to try to find them and negate the surprise round. If they fail, they get the surprise round against them.
I actually pulled a fun one on my DM the other day (after much arguing). We were talking to the guardian of the artifact we were supposed to be rescuing. I figured that we were going to be attacked soon. I told my DM "I ready an entangle for whenever any of those creatures moves." Worked beautifully, otherwise I'd have ended up going dead last in battle. :smallbiggrin:
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 10:53 AM
For the first few rooms of the dungeon, the "ghost sound - gatecrash - surprise!" might work. But even at the beginning, you're alerting the monsters by making ghost sound that something's up, and while they won't specifically be prepared for the party, they will be prepared for trouble.
As noted, dungeon encounters should never be run in isolation. A fight makes a pretty large noise in a dungeon, and monsters will hear the fighting, get ready for whatever's coming, and, if they're things like Bugbears, will plan accordingly.
Surprise is a very finicky mechanic when people try to abuse it, as it is worded in such a way that one or both parties have to be previously unaware of the other for it to apply. In the case of dungeons, I would generally rule that, unless they're darned careful, nearby creatures know damn well something's nearby, and it's up to them. In the case of kicking down a door, that's a wonderfully situational thing.
For example, you're assuming they successfully open the door on the first try, a dangerous assumption in any dungeon. If they fail the first time, the monster group are, by definition, unsurprised. If they manage it, they still get to check for surprise, but considering the noise your average party makes (CLANK CLANK CLANK... WhisperwhisperwhisperOkay... BAM!)... it's not often the party gets the drop on the monsters.
For the first few rooms of the dungeon, the "ghost sound - gatecrash - surprise!" might work.
So the party mage has to trick his party members into a granting themselves a suprise round?
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 11:04 AM
What is actually going on in that specific situation, Boci, is essentially metagaming (okay, we know there's a monster behind the door when we shouldn't, how can we, for a certain definition of "reasonably", reasonably get the drop on them... secret notes+ghost sound=monster behind door=WIN!)
However, what actually happens is that the GM generally spots such a dirty low-down piece of filthy metagaming, and suddenly changes his encounter to something suitably punishing (A grudge monster) to teach them a lesson (DON'T METAGAME), or, even worse, makes sure that every room that doesn't contain a grudge monster in fact contains nothing. This ends up in hurt feelings on both sides, and the game eventually dissolves.
And the moral? metagaming ruins games.
EDIT: The other moral being - DMs visit this forum as much as the players. Keep this in mind.
What is actually going on in that specific situation, Boci, is essentially metagaming (okay, we know there's a monster behind the door when we shouldn't, how can we, for a certain definition of "reasonably", reasonably get the drop on them... secret notes+ghost sound=monster behind door=WIN!)
Huh? What knowledge is the player using that their mage wouldn't have access to? In a dungeon, there are frequently monsters behind doors?
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 11:19 AM
Yes, but the point is, that this is used regardless of whether a monster is heard or not. That's my only problem with it as a DM, in that I can definitely see a bit of metagaming going on when somebody ghost sounds behind every door so as to get a surprise round they do not, in fact, deserve.
Yes, but the point is, that this is used regardless of whether a monster is heard or not. That's my only problem with it as a DM, in that I can definitely see a bit of metagaming going on when somebody ghost sounds behind every door so as to get a surprise round they do not, in fact, deserve.
Explain to me how a mage trying tricking his party members into believing there is an enemy behind a door to make them better prepared incase there actually is one is metagaming.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 11:36 AM
Because of a)The assumption that every door has a monster behind it, as opposed to, say, a trap, and b) The party can much more easily, y'know, listen at the door. If they fail to hear anything, then they have no IC reason to believe there is a monster behind the door, and no IC rationale for constantly doing this.
The problem with it is that while monsters are frequent, there is not always (in fact, bally rarely) any call, IC, for such a trick. It is purely something to gain a benefit in case there are and you didn't hear them.
Besides, as I noted earlier, what also generally happens is that the monsters are aware something's up, and any moderately sane GM will say "right, they get a bonus to their checks"
Because of a)The assumption that every door has a monster behind it, as opposed to, say, a trap,
Thats an incorrect assumption that both the player and the character are making, not metagaming.
and b) The party can much more easily, y'know, listen at the door. If they fail to hear anything, then they have no IC reason to believe there is a monster behind the door, and no IC rationale for constantly doing this.
Yes, clearly in D&D if you cannot hear anything behind a door there is nothing there. I am sure SWAP also listens at a door and if they hear nothing stroll calmly in. They would certainly not kick the door down and storm in guns at the ready just to be on the safe side.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 11:46 AM
Thats an incorrect assumption that both the player and the character are making, not metagaming.
Yes, clearly in D&D if you cannot hear anything behind a door there is nothing there. I am sure SWAP also listens at a door and if they hear nothing stroll calmly in. They would certainly not kick the door down and storm in guns at the ready just to be on the safe side.
We're not arguing about the case of "we can't hear anything, let's kick down the door to be safe"... that's perfectly normal, and may or may not give surprise to the players (see "not kicking it down on the first try"). We're arguing about the idea that a player will deliberately trick his own party for no IC reason, but for the OOC reason that they want to get a surprise round in, regardless of the encounter.
EDIT: Which wouldn't work after the first few times anyway, because somebody's going to figure out it's the wizard doing it, and get IC annoyed for all the times that didn't have any result.
I really would like to meet some of these "hyper paranoid" adventurers people talk about, because it would give me great pleasure to make them even more paranoid with an empty dungeon.
We're not arguing about the case of "we can't hear anything, let's kick down the door to be safe"... that's perfectly normal, and may or may not give surprise to the players (see "not kicking it down on the first try"). We're arguing about the idea that a player will deliberately trick his own party for no IC reason, but for the OOC reason that they want to get a surprise round in, regardless of the encounter.
The reason I brought up the ghost sound tactics was because Snake-Aes was unwilling to grant PCs a suprise round if they went in expecting an enemy even though they weren't 100% sure there was one.
I really would like to meet some of these "hyper paranoid" adventurers people talk about, because it would give me great pleasure to make them even more paranoid with an empty dungeon.
And? I'm sure there are some DMs who would love to meet some laid back adventurers to traumatize with one of his dungeons.
lsfreak
2010-09-19, 11:52 AM
We're arguing about the idea that a player will deliberately trick his own party for no IC reason, but for the OOC reason that they want to get a surprise round in, regardless of the encounter.
I'd agree with this, and why I allow surprise rounds when the PC's are specifically expecting trouble and catch off-guard someone who's not. If the PC's are expecting trouble (they're in a dungeon) and the enemies are (they heard lots of commotion from the PC's direction), it does straight to initiative.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 11:56 AM
The whole point a surprise round generally isn't granted simply by "expecting an enemy" is that that's not the whole thing. First off, surprise needs one or both parties not to be expecting an enemy, and, judging by the playstyle mentioned, Boci, the chances of that happening are slim to none. You make a lot of noise, bashing down doors, even the thick monsters will see the pattern, and nobody will get a surprise roll.
The point I was trying to make, Boci, is that trying to get a surprise round is a pointless endeavour, and says more about the encounter levels you've got than how you roleplay. If somebody's actively looking to get a surprise round as you are, then something's up. Specifically, the encounters are toned a bit high. And that worries me. I may be an "evil" GM (in that I like the players to have fun through adversity as opposed to Monty Haul), but I can only see this being used in a group where the party is going through a dungeon expecting to get hammered every time they open a door.
EDIT: Basically, Isfreak summed it up a lot better than I did. Ninja'd.
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 11:57 AM
The surprise round represents that extra split-second given to the attacker because the victim didn't notice it coming, even if the victim already expected to find trouble.
Expecting trouble is knowing generally where it comes from, being armed beforehand and so on.
Noticing it when it comes is something else entirely. That's the differentiation i'm trying to bring to this thread.
Expecting trouble is knowing generally where it comes from, being armed beforehand and so on.
I'm armed and prepared and I expect trouble from the other side of this door we are about to enter.
BTW, I expect the reverse to be true as well. IF no one in my party hears the elite guards apropaching, then when they kick down the door they should get a suprise round.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 12:02 PM
Yeah, that's one of those fine points that can sometimes bog down the game, SA, but when it's done well, it adds fun. Good example is the aforementioned bugbear dungeon. At first, they'll lure you in with openly attacking, then... as you start kicking in doors, they'll start flanking you. That's where surprise definitely kicks in.
EDIT: Boci, this example I gave is a fine example of how you kick in the door and still get surprised. If you genuinely did something that they weren't expecting, I, as a DM, would say, okay, you might get a surprise round. But if you just kick in the door and barge in, you generally don't. Because you did it the last twelve times, and the telltale BAM! gives monsters that clue.
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 12:08 PM
I'm armed and prepared and I expect trouble from the other side of this door we are about to enter.
Right, and this means you will be armed and prepared and will still have to spend time detecting the creatures you expect to find in order to know what exactly you have to react against. The fact you know the enemy is there doesn't mean you already see it.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 12:09 PM
pree-cisely!
Right, and this means you will be armed and prepared and will still have to spend time detecting the creatures you expect to find in order to know what exactly you have to react against. The fact you know the enemy is there doesn't mean you already see it.
Which you will still have to do even if you know they are on the other side of the door.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 12:17 PM
Snake, Isfreak, I don't think this one's getting it.
Right, Boci. Simply put.
1) You kick down the door and the monster (who has heard you coming, or, later on, knows damn well you always kick down the door from the periodic BAM BAM BAM that keeps going on) fires a crossbow, his readied action. He automatically gets surprise.
2) You kick down the door and the monster's mates are waiting at the sides of the door to fricasee the first in. They get surprise again.
3) You send your stealthy blokes to kick down the other door, while you kick in the first, and attack from two directions. You get surprise, because they didn't see it coming.
4) You make ghost sound in the room. The monsters immediately think "What? someone in the room?" and get ready. You kick the door down, they immediately put two and two together, and start laying the smackdown. No surprise either way.
These are just some examples of how surprise really works. It relies, not only on shock value, but also tactical surprise, the "Burger me, I wasn't expecting that!", and stealth. Not "I'm ready, therefore I don't get surprised."
After all, you hear a kobold, kick the door down, and are faced with an Illithid doing kobold impressions? You are soooooo surprised!
1) You kick down the door and the monster (who has heard you coming, or, later on, knows damn well you always kick down the door from the periodic BAM BAM BAM that keeps going on) fires a crossbow, his readied action. He automatically gets surprise.
I agree.
2) You kick down the door and the monster's mates are waiting at the sides of the door to fricasee the first in. They get surprise again.
I agree.
3) You send your stealthy blokes to kick down the other door, while you kick in the first, and attack from two directions. You get surprise, because they didn't see it coming.
I agree.
4) You make ghost sound in the room. The monsters immediately think "What? someone in the room?" and get ready. You kick the door down, they immediately put two and two together, and start laying the smackdown. No surprise either way.
I agree.
Now if the monsters didn't hear you coming, then you get the suprise round. Glad we agree on this.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 12:26 PM
That's a big "if", considering, Boci. Plus, remember a surprise round isn't automatic. They still get a chance to get over it quick enough to react.
As to why it's a big "if"? You've nearly always got one monkey in full plate. You've nearly always got at least one pitched battle. You've always got at least one FWOOOSH! of fireballness and the like. In short, adventurers are noisy. It's gotten to the point where, unless they are specifically telling me they're moving as stealthily as possible, monsters can make listen checks from within reasonable distance to hear them coming, which means they rarely get surprised (except tactically)
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 12:29 PM
My group weaponized our paladin's noise. While he and the wizard make things go "boom", "splortch" and "clang", the two sneaky bastards move around with relative freedom (often bringing puppy's #3 case).
That's a big "if", considering, Boci. Plus, remember a surprise round isn't automatic. They still get a chance to get over it quick enough to react.
Its not automatic, but if they haven't heard the adventurers coming (and I never claimed that would happen frequently), they will have a pretty decent chance to get a suprise round.
As to why it's a big "if"? You've nearly always got one monkey in full plate. You've nearly always got at least one pitched battle. You've always got at least one FWOOOSH! of fireballness and the like. In short, adventurers are noisy. It's gotten to the point where, unless they are specifically telling me they're moving as stealthily as possible, monsters can make listen checks from within reasonable distance to hear them coming, which means they rarely get surprised (except tactically)
Listen DC for battle is -10. Add 10 for every stone wall, 5 for every door, anmd 1 for every 10ft. So yeah, good chance they will hear you coming, but not guranteed.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 12:32 PM
Always remember that someone in full plate gets -stupid to their move silently. This minus, I personally find, also applies to listen rolls quite well when nobody's bothering to move silently. Anyways, glad to see we're all on common ground now!
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 12:36 PM
Speaking about battle awareness and surprises, is there any ruling for someone who wants to battle in a silent manner? My group just ruled that an appropriate move silently check ups the "hear a battle" dc to 0 for the round where you succeeded (and everyone else involved also did).
Getting both surprise and initiative (thus 2 actions before the enemy acts) is fairly common when we are in sneaky mode.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 12:40 PM
Hrm. That's a tough call due to the one broken cog in the plan... that the enemy, if they even have half a brain, won't play ball. If all parties are fighting quietly, then yeah, but I can't imagine many situations that would happen, and definitely not in the bugbear dungeon example. The bugbears would yell their heads off and attempt to deliberately warn any other bugbears within 5 miles of the group... And most other monsters would act similarly...
EDIT: ...However, that does give me a great dungeon idea... "Don't wake the Behir!"... :P
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 12:53 PM
Hrm. That's a tough call due to the one broken cog in the plan... that the enemy, if they even have half a brain, won't play ball. If all parties are fighting quietly, then yeah, but I can't imagine many situations that would happen, and definitely not in the bugbear dungeon example. The bugbears would yell their heads off and attempt to deliberately warn any other bugbears within 5 miles of the group... And most other monsters would act similarly...
EDIT: ...However, that does give me a great dungeon idea... "Don't wake the Behir!"... :P
It is a concern to us because, as we said, it's common for us to get 2 rounds before the enemy does (surprise + initiative) when we are being sneaky. It is also common for us to get rid of said enemies (generally with nonlethal damage or pinning them, <3 half dragon str). We like to pull those stunts when we sneak into places like castles or guarded mansions (not every relevant enemy is level-appropriate, you know!)
It is a concern to us because, as we said, it's common for us to get 2 rounds before the enemy does (surprise + initiative) when we are being sneaky. It is also common for us to get rid of said enemies (generally with nonlethal damage or pinning them, <3 half dragon str). We like to pull those stunts when we sneak into places like castles or guarded mansions (not every relevant enemy is level-appropriate, you know!)
I'd say if the enemy cannot act DC: 0 or 5 to hear the battle is reasonable.
darkpuppy
2010-09-19, 01:07 PM
Hrm, in those situations, it's a lot like playing later stealth-em-ups. One guy not knocked out is going to give the whole game away. Still, so long as you're taking them out quickly and specifying you're doing so as silently as possible lessens the chance of cockups, so it would be quite reasonable, in such situations, to assume that, so long as you're not going sword on sword, and the enemy doesn't have the chance to give the game away, you'd preserve the surprise. Just learn your lesson from games like Thief and Hitman: Hide the bodies, and gag the mofos.
Jack Zander
2010-09-19, 09:16 PM
That's too much effort. Just use your surprise round to toss a stone with silence cast on it into the middle of the group, or carry the thing on your person as you trudge through. Make everyone take sign language or use telepathic bonds.
Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 09:43 PM
That's too much effort. Just use your surprise round to toss a stone with silence cast on it into the middle of the group, or carry the thing on your person as you trudge through. Make everyone take sign language or use telepathic bonds.
Do your games have lots of professional stuntmen?
Jack Zander
2010-09-19, 10:52 PM
Do your games have lots of professional stuntmen?
I'm sorry. That went way over my head... :smallsigh:
Curmudgeon
2010-09-20, 01:42 AM
The Ghost Sound trick doesn't work. Essentially you're creating a new "group" consisting of phantom sound. When the PCs perceive the Ghost Sound, that does nothing to let them perceive any random other group(s), even if one such group happens to be near the location of the phantom sounds.You're probably all aware of this (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 23):
The Surprise Round
When only one side is aware of the other, the DM runs the first round of combat as a surprise round. In this round, each character gets only a standard action. Only those aware of the other side can take any action at all. ... but maybe you're not aware of this (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 24):
If, in the course of a battle between two sides, some third group enters the battle, they should come into the action in between rounds. The following rules apply to this situation, whether or not the new group is allied with one or more existing side involved in the encounter.
Newcomers Are Aware: If any (or all) of the newcomers are aware of one or both of the sides in a battle, they take their actions before anyone else. ...
Newcomers Not Aware: If any or all of the newcomers are not aware of the other sides when they enter the encounter (for example, the PCs stumble unaware into a fight between two monsters in a dungeon), the newcomers still come into play at the beginning of the round, but they roll initiative normally. The PCs hear the phantom sounds, and get a surprise advantage over them; that's good for nothing. Any monsters who happen to be nearby come under the "third group" rules, as outlined above.
What you've guaranteed with the Ghost Sound trick is that you will not have a surprise round advantage over any "third group" monsters, because the PCs have already entered "combat" against the phantom sounds. That's the way the RAW cookie crumbles. :amused:
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