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View Full Version : What's Reasonable and What's Gamebreaking?



ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-19, 10:03 AM
Consider the following special abilities/qualities:

Damage Reduction
Fast Healing
Regeneration/fire or cold or acid (vulnerable to all three)
Natural Armor
Deflection Bonus
Dodge Bonus
Spell Resistance
Energy Resistance
+X to Str, Dex, or Con


What are reasonable values for each of these at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20?

How much is too much? For example, War Hulk adding +2 Str at each level is the reason that this is considered one of the more broken PrCs out there, and using alter self into a trogdolyte for +6 NA at low levels is ridiculously good.

Finally, what values are irrelevant at these levels? SR 14 at level 15 might as well be SR 0, for instance, and the Barbarian's rage doesn't do much at higher levels.

EDIT: I would prefer answers as flat numbers if possible.

Yora
2010-09-19, 10:31 AM
It depends entirely on the power level of the campaign, the optimization of the characters, and the level the characters have.

akma
2010-09-19, 10:36 AM
I think it would more depend on the party as a whole.
As long as the power level of each player in the group is roughly equal, there shouldn`t be much problam for the DM - he could just put stronger monsters. If however one will be much stronger/weaker then the rest, then it would become a problam.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-19, 10:41 AM
I'm asking because I'm developing a homebrew class, and it will have the ability to gain these features as class abilities. So consider a moderately optimized party and go from there. I want the features to be significant, but I don't want to make the character invincible. I know what isn't going to make a difference (fast healing 1 at level 20 is way lame), but I'm not sure how much the class should grant without pumping the power level over 9000.

Sewercop
2010-09-19, 10:43 AM
I think it would more depend on the party as a whole.
As long as the power level of each player in the group is roughly equal, there shouldn`t be much problam for the DM - he could just put stronger monsters. If however one will be much stronger/weaker then the rest, then it would become a problam.

Quoted for truth.

akma
2010-09-19, 10:49 AM
I'm asking because I'm developing a homebrew class, and it will have the ability to gain these features as class abilities. So consider a moderately optimized party and go from there. I want the features to be significant, but I don't want to make the character invincible. I know what isn't going to make a difference (fast healing 1 at level 20 is way lame), but I'm not sure how much the class should grant without pumping the power level over 9000.

Base class or prestige class?
If prestige class, then feel free to create anything, and if it`s unbalanced just raise the minimum level required to take it.
If base, then I suggest comparing it to a class that you want to have it as roughly the same power.
Anyways, when you start making something, go to the homebrow forum, and people who understand more on balance then me will help you.

vp21ct
2010-09-19, 11:11 AM
Also consider how well the team works together.

If they keep diving off of catwalks, ditching eachother in the middle of a fight, etc. Then characters that would normally be 'game breaking' kinda don't have a chance.

true_shinken
2010-09-19, 11:16 AM
That's a lot of defensive features for a single class...

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-19, 11:18 AM
It's a base class, but I asked here first to find the expected/reasonable values at various levels of play. I would also prefer an answer other than "it depends on the party" so I create a class that is viable in all parties.

EDIT:
That's a lot of defensive features for a single class...

It doesn't necessarily get all of them. It will choose which it wants from a menu.

Boci
2010-09-19, 11:28 AM
Assuming you want everything on the list:


Damage Reduction

Assuming its DR: X/-, half the clases level would be reasonable.


Fast Healing

Once you got 1 the rest doesns't matter as much. I'd give it 1 every 4 levels. Anyway, its gona add a lot of paper work.


Regeneration

This would need some serious drawback(s), like becoming fatigued in day light and being overcome by common energy types.


Natural Armor

Every other level when they do not gain DR.


Deflection Bonus

1 every 6 levels.


Dodge Bonus

1 every 6 levels.


Spell Resistance

Level + 15 is a decent class feature IIRC, and actually worth having if you allow them to volentarily drop it as a free action that can be taken out of turn.


Energy Resistance

Level +10 for the first one, -5 for each one after that.


+X to Str, Dex, or Con

1 every 4 levels.

There, now you have an NPC tank class and some room for a bit more offensive class features.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-19, 11:37 AM
Excellent suggested breakdown stuff.

This is all good, but the way the class is designed is it will be giving the option to add flat amounts to any one from the list. So perhaps I should have been more clear and asked what flat numbers are reasonable or gamebreaking at those levels (assuming CR appropriate stuff and standard WBL). The idea is that the character will be able to either really focus on a single aspect and have a Con score in the stratosphere or they will can spread the focus between a few different aspects.

And a clarification on regeneration: It will be Regeneration X/fire or acid or cold, possibly with feats to narrow it down to one or two types.

Boci
2010-09-19, 11:48 AM
This is all good, but the way the class is designed is it will be giving the option to add flat amounts to any one from the list. So perhaps I should have been more clear and asked what flat numbers are reasonable or gamebreaking at those levels (assuming CR appropriate stuff and standard WBL). The idea is that the character will be able to either really focus on a single aspect and have a Con score in the stratosphere or they will can spread the focus between a few different aspects.

Okay well then the most important question is how do you change your focus and how many can you have at the same time? Do you choose them at the beginning of each day only or can you change them? If so, how often and what does it cost? HP, time, ability damage, fatigue ect?


And a clarification on regeneration: It will be Regeneration X/fire or ice or cold, possibly with feats to narrow it down to one or two types.

Ice and cold? Do you mean acid and cold?

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-19, 12:34 PM
Okay well then the most important question is how do you change your focus and how many can you have at the same time? Do you choose them at the beginning of each day only or can you change them? If so, how often and what does it cost? HP, time, ability damage, fatigue ect?

You pick it once and then it's set in stone, but you can pick each one multiple times and the effects stack. I was thinking of having about 20 "slots" to work with.


Ice and cold? Do you mean acid and cold?

I don't know what you're talking about. :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-09-19, 01:24 PM
Consider the following special abilities/qualities:

Damage Reduction
Fast Healing
Regeneration/fire or cold or acid (vulnerable to all three)
Natural Armor
Deflection Bonus
Dodge Bonus
Spell Resistance
Energy Resistance
+X to Str, Dex, or Con


What are reasonable values for each of these at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20?

How much is too much? For example, War Hulk adding +2 Str at each level is the reason that this is considered one of the more broken PrCs out there, and using alter self into a trogdolyte for +6 NA at low levels is ridiculously good.

Finally, what values are irrelevant at these levels? SR 14 at level 15 might as well be SR 0, for instance, and the Barbarian's rage doesn't do much at higher levels.

EDIT: I would prefer answers as flat numbers if possible.
Yeah, it does depend on the group but vague answers like that aren't helping the OPs particular situation.

DR: See Barbarian
Fast Healing: I'd guestimate fast healing 1 at level 7, +10 per 3 levels would be very high fast healing. Anything not focused on it would get less. Remember not to give even fast healing 1 too soon b/c it gives unlimited out of combat healing.
Regeneration: Since limbs aren't often severed, in practice it's worse than fast healing due to the weaknesses to energy types. But remember for a PC class, most monsters it faces won't have those energy types. So it's only a hair worse.
AC bonuses: Are generally expected to come from equipment not class levels. If equipment is well optimized, it only takes +5 AC from class levels or feats to make a character virtually un-hittable. Be very sparing with AC bonuses. I'd say +1 per 4 levels is very high for this category, again unless you restrict equipment. Again, any class not focused on AC would get less.
Spell Resistance: 10 + class levels is typical for a major SR class, 5 + class levels is typical for a minor SR class.
Energy Resistance: I'm bad at this one, don't even want to try to guess.
+X to Str, Dex, Con: +2 str is worth a little more than 1 BAB, con almost as much as str, and dex is a distant 3rd. About 5 levels of full BAB class class features is worth another +2 strength. But ya as you've figured out a BAB is not as good as +2 strength and replacing them 1 for 1 too many times can add up the minor brokennesses into major brokenness.

As noted multiple times above if your class has all of these at the same time then each one should be weaker.

A note on stacking: Often you'll want to look at the total bonus rather than any additional bonus the class gives. Hence the reason why AC and AB (including AB from barbarian rage strength) don't often scale much; because they already scale from other sources and any additional +1 means you have to roll 1 lower at all levels. Those classes that do scale do so because they lose the scaling from other sources. E.g., a less than full BAB class might give scaling stat boosts and an unarmored class might give scaling AC boosts.

Flickerdart
2010-09-19, 01:51 PM
An easy way to balance the stat gains is to make them enhancement bonuses, and then give them out at the rate that items would grant them. Same goes for the deflection and natural armour bonuses. Dodge is a bit harder, since it stacks, but following the item scale minus 1 should be fine - high AC isn't exceptionally broken.
SR of 5+HD is worthless, while SR of 15+HD is too high (equivalent level casters will have less than 50% chance of affecting the target even if they invest into caster level boosts, and 25% without).

Sewercop
2010-09-19, 02:12 PM
The same rate as items?
Hehe, would love to play such a class.
You just doubled my wbl.
I think that`s a bad idea.

Fast healing... and regen? Why?
Energy immunity and regen... Combine those two and i smell cheese.
And spell resistance?
And you get to choose.. And it stacks?

You know what... It really depends on what the other guys play.
You said we should not mention it.. But if i played a fighter in the game and you threw this guy into the game...?

Eldariel
2010-09-19, 02:31 PM
War Hulk isn't really broken or even very good. The only way to break it is by using Hulking Hurler, where the problem is Hurler; otherwise no BAB melee is frankly mediocre since he misses out on iteratives losing far more damage than he gains with the Str increases, and the Str increases merely cancel out the BAB loss.

Boci
2010-09-19, 02:37 PM
Okay so 20 points, or 1 per level, choose what you can and it stacks? Could work, but will need 1 some limitations. Like a maximum amount you can spend on a single features that scales with your level, say 1 every 4 or 5 levels. Assuming its every 4 levels, 1 point is worth something along the lines of:

DR: 4 / -
Fast healing 2
3 points of regerneration
2 NA
1 deflection AC
1 dodge AC
6 points of spell resistence
6 points of energy resistence
+1 to any two physical stats

I must emphasize this is a blind stab and will need to be more carefully evaluated/play tested. If I have time latter I will make some sample characters and see how powerful they are. I also feel that this alone will not be enough. Even with the ability to pump strength, this class severly lacks offence and thus needs more class features to avoid being underpowered, a problem that won't be solved by raising the numbers presented above.

Edit: As far as base states go, I'm thinking d8, all good saves, full BAB, 4 skills / level. That would cut down on the need for extra class features. The class skills will depend on exactly how their abilities are fluffed.

Edit 2: Oops, forgot how spell resistence works. It will need to scale between 11 and 30, so 10 + 4 should work, although it will be a bit wonky.


War Hulk isn't really broken or even very good. The only way to break it is by using Hulking Hurler, where the problem is Hurler; otherwise no BAB melee is frankly mediocre since he misses out on iteratives losing far more damage than he gains with the Str increases, and the Str increases merely cancel out the BAB loss.

Works well with the skilled enchantment from Complete Arcane. Although my PCs threw a books at me after they discovered that they had been fighting an incarnate with just such a weapon.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-19, 03:22 PM
The same rate as items?
Hehe, would love to play such a class.
You just doubled my wbl.
I think that`s a bad idea.

Fast healing... and regen? Why?
Energy immunity and regen... Combine those two and i smell cheese.
And spell resistance?
And you get to choose.. And it stacks?

Keep in mind, you wouldn't get all of these, just those you chose.

Fast healing and regen would allow you to recover from lethal damage and subdual, rather than one or the other. There will be no energy immunity, only resistance. It would only stack with itself, not with items that grant the same bonuses. This helps free up WBL to buy things other than +X items, which to me is more interesting and not necessarily gamebreaking.

EDIT:
Okay so 20 points, or 1 per level, choose what you can and it stacks? Could work, but will need 1 some limitations. Like a maximum amount you can spend on a single features that scales with your level, say 1 every 4 or 5 levels. Assuming its every 4 levels, 1 point is worth something along the lines of:

DR: 4 / -
Fast healing 2
3 points of regerneration
2 NA
1 deflection AC
1 dodge AC
6 points of spell resistence
6 points of energy resistence
+1 to any two physical stats

I must emphasize this is a blind stab and will need to be more carefully evaluated/play tested. If I have time latter I will make some sample characters and see how powerful they are. I also feel that this alone will not be enough. Even with the ability to pump strength, this class severly lacks offence and thus needs more class features to avoid being underpowered, a problem that won't be solved by raising the numbers presented above.

This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. I will be adding other features that grant offensive options, so keep in mind the class won't just be having awesome defenses. I think I'll post what I have over in the homebrew forum and then build from there rather than trying to finish it all in advance.

Urpriest
2010-09-19, 03:42 PM
Fast healing could be accessible early if you're fine with unlimited out of combat healing, otherwise level 6 or 7 for the first point seems reasonable.

For regeneration, the level should be pretty high, as being unkillable by normal melee damage (and hence most monsters) is nothing to sneeze at by any means. Perhaps level 12 required to gain the first point of it.

And really, combining fast healing and regeneration feels wrong to me, even if it would have reasonably balanced mechanical effects. Perhaps the character trades fast healing for regeneration at higher levels?

Boci
2010-09-19, 03:46 PM
Fast healing could be accessible early if you're fine with unlimited out of combat healing, otherwise level 6 or 7 for the first point seems reasonable.

For regeneration, the level should be pretty high, as being unkillable by normal melee damage (and hence most monsters) is nothing to sneeze at by any means. Perhaps level 12 required to gain the first point of it.

And really, combining fast healing and regeneration feels wrong to me, even if it would have reasonably balanced mechanical effects. Perhaps the character trades fast healing for regeneration at higher levels?

Troll-blooded is considered balanced from what I've heard and it gives regeneration in return for fatigue in sunlight.

Sewercop
2010-09-19, 03:47 PM
What level are you guys playing with?

The thing is, you are not taking lethal damage. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Regeneration_(SRD_Creature_Ability)

Eldariel
2010-09-19, 03:54 PM
Works well with the skilled enchantment from Complete Arcane. Although my PCs threw a books at me after they discovered that they had been fighting an incarnate with just such a weapon.

Also works well with anything that breaks BAB, but such things really shouldn't exist in the game. They just break too fundamental an aspect of the game (this includes Divine Power, Transformation and other nonsense too...). But I digress. Point being, as long as you're just a warrior-type who takes War Hulk, it's not broken or even very good. If you break the BAB loss, or are a Hurler, **** hits the fan. Doesn't help Core Spells make breaking said BAB loss rule horribly easy turning Commoners into Warriors.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-19, 05:51 PM
For those interested, the class I'm working on is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9388075#post9388075).