Question about Paladins (4th edition)

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, I'm making a Paladin for my fourth edition game. Most of the build is set in stone but there's one question I'd like to ask. Are there any feats that are particularly good for a Paladin that require a decent dexterity bonus? I want to put a 13 into intelligence since we've been running into quite a few skill challenges in the game and wanted to take Jack of all trades. I'm a half elf Chaladin if that affects anything.

EDIT: Gah! can't believe I forgot to mention this. He'll be tenth level.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm pretty sure Dexterity doesn't even rate being a paladin's third most important skill, off the top of my head, so frankly I'd be very suprised if there were any feats for the paladin that required it.

I'm sure that having a 13 in int isn't going to hamstring your Paladin much, but if you want to make sure, best have a look on the WotC forums and see if you can find a Paladin Handbook. Should be one or two.

I find that the ranking of feats is very helpful (even when I then ignore the advice and build what I want, because at least I'm doing it with my eyes open).

[truekender]

leave skills to the bard or rogue. Focus on your role; defender (sub leader). Either balance out your sub-role or focus on your primary role.

[cupkeyk]

If you are a cha-based, instead of strength based, you probably took Melee training(charisma). At paragon level, you should swap this out, if you can, for heavy blade opportunity (unless you have party mates that enable MBA's). If you can MC into bard, bard of all trades is better than jack of all trades.

[Kurald Galain]

Neither intelligence nor dexterity are particularly valuable to a paladin.

Note that for a skill challenge, it is much more effective to boost the skils you're already good at than to improve skills you haven't even trained. A multiclass feat (with free skill training) would be a better investment than JOAT.

[Mystic Muse]

If you are a cha-based, instead of strength based, you probably took Melee training(charisma). At paragon level, you should swap this out, if you can, for heavy blade opportunity (unless you have party mates that enable MBA's). If you can MC into bard, bard of all trades is better than jack of all trades.

I didn't see any reason to take melee training since I have a charisma based at will that can be used for melee basic attacks. I've also already taken the multiclass feat for bard and trained perception.

[Urpriest]

In general Dex is nice for paladins because of the heavy blade feats, but those are really only accessible to Straladins. The other thing to consider is Agile Godplate at Epic Levels, which will give you one of the highest defender ACs barring Swordmage shenanigans. However, in a normal heroic/paragon campaign with a Chaladin, Dex isn't very important. It gives Init, and Int doesn't, but if you're making Religion checks or the like regularly then you can get just as much out of Int as you would out of Dex.

[Mystic Muse]

well, this game will be going to level 30 (Scales of war)and you have a good point with the agile godplate. Guess I'll do Dexterity then if neither are particularly important.

EDIT: Didn't even notice the bard of all trades feat. Thanks for the tip!

[cupkeyk]

I was assuming you have an at-will combo. Virtuous strike isn't very combo-able.

[Mystic Muse]

I was assuming you have an at-will combo. Virtuous strike isn't very combo-able.

What do you mean exactly by at-will combo?

[cupkeyk]

Well, since you mc'ed bard, I thought you were going for a super vicious mocker. With a Githyanki Silver heavy blade, your enfeebling strike with psychic lock will stack with your vicious mockery (assuming this is your half-elf dilletante power with versatile master) and mark penalty. Assuming you hit with both powers within the same turn, the marked mob has a -8 to hit you and -10 to hit anyone else.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, since you mc'ed bard, I thought you were going for a super vicious mocker. With a Githyanki Silver heavy blade, your enfeebling strike with psychic lock will stack with your vicious mockery (assuming this is your half-elf dilletante power with versatile master) and mark penalty. Assuming you hit with both powers within the same turn, the marked mob has a -8 to hit you and -10 to hit anyone else.

Don't know what book Githyanki silver, Psychic lock, or Versatile master are in and versatile master didn't show up in the character builder last time I looked so that'd be pretty hard. Plus, can't I only make two attacks in the same turn if I have an action point? Seems like a lot of investment for something I can't use very often. I'll check again to make sure the feat isn't there but I don't remember seeing it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Don't know what book Githyanki silver, Psychic lock, or Versatile master are in and versatile master didn't show up in the character builder last time I looked so that'd be pretty hard. Plus, can't I only make two attacks in the same turn if I have an action point? Seems like a lot of investment for something I can't use very often. I'll check again to make sure the feat isn't there but I don't remember seeing it.
The Githyanki Silver Sword is in the Manual of the Planes, Psychic Lock should be in the Player's Handbook as a paragon tier feat, if I remember correctly, and Versatile Master is a paragon feat in the Player's Handbook 2 that only half-elves can take (as opposed to getting a racial paragon path like the other races) that upgrades some of their multiclassing prowess, including changing their Dilettante power from an encounter to an at-will.

[Mystic Muse]

The Githyanki Silver Sword is in the Manual of the Planes, Psychic Lock should be in the Player's Handbook as a paragon tier feat, if I remember correctly, and Versatile Master is a paragon feat in the Player's Handbook 2 that only half-elves can take (as opposed to getting a racial paragon path like the other races) that upgrades some of their multiclassing prowess, including changing their Dilettante power from an encounter to an at-will.

Ah. Looking at it, I it still doesn't seem worth the investment for a (usually) once per day ability that requires two different attacks to hit and only affects one creature.

[Urpriest]

Ah. Looking at it, I it still doesn't seem worth the investment for a (usually) once per day ability that requires two different attacks to hit and only affects one creature.

But look above: he's basing this suggestion on the idea that you'd be getting Heavy Blade Opportunity. Broadly speaking, this means that the full -8/-10 penalty comes up in any round that you get an attack of opportunity against an enemy, which might be frequently or not at all. Polearm feats would make it more frequent, but that would lead to further stat requirements.

In any case, I wouldn't worry about it. Psychic Lock is good, but you don't have a huge reason to optimize around it via Enfeebling Strike.

[cupkeyk]

The Githyanki Silver Sword is in the Manual of the Planes, Psychic Lock should be in the Player's Handbook as a paragon tier feat, if I remember correctly, and Versatile Master is a paragon feat in the Player's Handbook 2 that only half-elves can take (as opposed to getting a racial paragon path like the other races) that upgrades some of their multiclassing prowess, including changing their Dilettante power from an encounter to an at-will.


You only need to drop the Paragon path if you want the multiclass paragon path feature. Otherwise the only thing it does is make your half-elf delitante power at will.

So your round will look like this:
Your turn.
Standard action: vicious mockery mob.
Minor action: Divine Challenge Mob
Move action: stand adjacent to mob.
Mob's turn. (So far has a -4 against you and a -6 against your allies)
Does something silly like move away from you without shifting, gets hit with enfeebling strike. No0w has -8 against you and -10 against your allies.)

This works really well with Agile opportunist and a warlord/bard that can slide you around to trigger the opportunity action from agile opportunist.

[Tiki Snakes]

If you already have bard multiclass, then bard of all trades becomes a pretty reasonable option, (being that it's jack of all trades+1). If you really want to go that route, there's also a paragon path that gives, if I recall, a flat +2 to all skills, trained or otherwise.

By that point, you are basically trained in everything.

It really depends what you actually want to acheive with your character, however.

[cupkeyk]

The flat +2 to all skills is lifesinger. I think. A good bard mc but not one for a defender, since they don't attack will very often.

[Mystic Muse]

You only need to drop the Paragon path if you want the multiclass paragon path feature. Otherwise the only thing it does is make your half-elf delitante power at will.

So your round will look like this:
Your turn.
Standard action: vicious mockery mob.
Minor action: Divine Challenge Mob
Move action: stand adjacent to mob.
Mob's turn. (So far has a -4 against you and a -6 against your allies)
Does something silly like move away from you without shifting, gets hit with enfeebling strike. Now has -8 against you and -10 against your allies.)


two problems with this.
1. I don't see how I'm subjecting multiple enemies to this. Is there something I missed? Because AFAIK there's no way to make divine challenge affect multiple enemies short of powers. Even then, vicious mockery only targets a single opponent.
2. I'm not going to have the strength to take heavy blade opportunity anyway.

However, combining psychic lock with vicious mockery isn't a bad idea. I'll probably do that once I have the choice.

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, the PRC I was thinking of is Jack of all Trades, and is apparently Martial Power 2. Unfortunately, the PRC's attack powers are dex based, so not particularly paladin friendly. More importantly, it does require rogue, apparently.

Lifesinger seems to be a PRC for buffing your Allies skill checks, bit different. Might still be worth looking at if you're going for a non-violent leaning type of paladin, it would give a reasonably leaderish slice I suppose, and with buffing all your nearby allies skills, would still help with all those skill-checks.

[cupkeyk]

two problems with this.
1. I don't see how I'm subjecting multiple enemies to this. Is there something I missed? Because AFAIK there's no way to make divine challenge affect multiple enemies short of powers. Even then, vicious mockery only targets a single opponent.
2. I'm not going to have the strength to take heavy blade opportunity anyway.

However, combining psychic lock with vicious mockery isn't a bad idea. I'll probably do that once I have the choice.

Spreading punishment around is more of a fighter thing and a paladin is more of a single target lockdown with some leader-ish stuff thrown in. So yeah, this build is intended to make a single opponent useless. Like sequester.

If your looking at subjecting more than two mobs to your challenge, then fighter is the way to go.

[Mystic Muse]

Spreading punishment around is more of a fighter thing and a paladin is more of a single target lockdown with some leader-ish stuff thrown in. So yeah, this build is intended to make a single opponent useless. Like sequester.
.

:smallconfused: then why did you refer to the enemy as a mob? A mob is a group of people, not a single enemy. Unless it's some form of slang that I'm unaware of.

[Mando Knight]

:smallconfused: then why did you refer to the enemy as a mob? A mob is a group of people, not a single enemy. Unless it's some form of slang that I'm unaware of.

It's slang, most commonly used now in MMOs. It came from old MUDs and such, apparently being a shortened form of "mobile," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_%28computer_gaming%29) since monsters were some of the few computer-controlled mobile objects.

[Mystic Muse]

It's slang, most commonly used now in MMOs. It came from old MUDs and such, apparently being a shortened form of "mobile," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_%28computer_gaming%29) since monsters were some of the few computer-controlled mobile objects.

Ah. That would have been nice to know earlier. Although I doubt it would have changed anything. I'm betting I'd still be confused.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

However, combining psychic lock with vicious mockery isn't a bad idea. I'll probably do that once I have the choice.
This is why the Githyanki Silver Sword is a good idea. One of its properties is that it converts all damage to psychic, allowing you to use this trick with ALL your powers, not just Vicious Mockery.

[Mystic Muse]

This is why the Githyanki Silver Sword is a good idea. One of its properties is that it converts all damage to psychic, allowing you to use this trick with ALL your powers, not just Vicious Mockery.

Yeah. Unfortunately, I can't use implement powers through the thing and there are a few implement powers I have that I particularly like. Is there any other way to make my powers deal psychic damage?

EDIT: If not, I guess I could just get that sword too and take the quickdraw feat. What's the action to put a weapon back?

[Kurald Galain]

EDIT: If not, I guess I could just get that sword too and take the quickdraw feat. What's the action to put a weapon back?
A minor. But if you're an arcane character (bard) anyway, you can use an arcane familiar (disembodied hand) instead of quickdraw, which stows weapons for free too.

[mobdrazhar]

Yeah. Unfortunately, I can't use implement powers through the thing and there are a few implement powers I have that I particularly like. Is there any other way to make my powers deal psychic damage?

EDIT: If not, I guess I could just get that sword too and take the quickdraw feat. What's the action to put a weapon back?

Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blade)

[Mystic Muse]

Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blade)

Doesn't help AFAIK. I need it to work for divine powers.


A minor. But if you're an arcane character (bard) anyway, you can use an arcane familiar (disembodied hand) instead of quickdraw, which stows weapons for free too.

where do I find familiars? Can't remember what book they're in.

[Blackfang108]

Doesn't help AFAIK. I need it to work for divine powers.



where do I find familiars? Can't remember what book they're in.

Arcane Power. I believe there are some specific familiars in other sources, but the initial feats are in AP.

[Mystic Muse]

Arcane Power. I believe there are some specific familiars in other sources, but the initial feats are in AP.

Thank you.

[cupkeyk]

But the ones Kurald is referring to are the disembodied hand, the rakshasa claw and the something-or-another attendant (coure?). They hand you stuff and stow. You can also choose the battle harness armor enhancement which does the same thing, only you look silly, as I imagine you will be dressed like a BDSM slave in a battle harness.

Also, you can use any implement you are proficient with for any power with the power with the implement keyword. They will probably rephrase Arcane implement proficiency to reflect this update; as simply implement proficiency by september 27 with the new CB update.

[Mystic Muse]

Also, you can use any implement you are proficient with for any power with the implement keyword.

really? Because according to the character builder I can only use divine powers through holy symbols. At least, those are the only ones that seem to get the enhancement bonus. (It's a sword that acts as a holy symbol and I'm using a shield in the other hand.)

[cupkeyk]

Yup, but it won't reflect in CB until the 27th of September. You can just manually change it.

[Mystic Muse]

So, if I took arcane implement proficiency (Longsword) I would be able to channel Paladin powers through that too?

[Ravens_cry]

[off topic] I'll say this for 4th edition paladins, their threads DO NOT turn into decuple plus length discussions on alignment. Peace! [/off topic]

[cupkeyk]

So, if I took arcane implement proficiency (Longsword) I would be able to channel Paladin powers through that too?
Yes, I am wondering if they will change the name of the feat by sept 27. Hmmmn

[Mystic Muse]

looks like I'll be taking the arcane familiar feat. There's currently a feat I want to try out this level so I'll wait until level 11 to take the feat and look at the paragon level familiars.

EDIT: At about what level do monsters consistently get concealment, total concealment or invisibility?