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Cheesy74
2010-09-19, 04:42 PM
So several of my players have adamantine weapons. Because of adamantine's purported "cut through anything" property, their immediate reaction to a barrier is to cut it apart. This strikes me as ridiculous. I mean, diamonds are harder than stone, that doesn't mean they glide through stone without slowing. How do I dissuade my players from using adamantine as a universal knife?

blackjack217
2010-09-19, 04:44 PM
DM fiat? House rule? Make them actually look it up because it can cut through hardness or Dr less than 20 it is not an auto cut

Heliomance
2010-09-19, 04:44 PM
Sadly, adamantine weapons ignore hardness, meaning they go through everything really easily. Yes, adamantine is just that good at cutting.

Emperor Ing
2010-09-19, 04:46 PM
Unfortunately, Adamantine weapons ignore hardness 20 and under, so I recommend just trapping it.

"Oh, what's that? You think you can disable the gynormous pit that'll open beneath you if you attack door? Bad news, that's impossible on this side of the door. :smallwink: "

Ilmryn
2010-09-19, 04:49 PM
When cutting through something, you are doing damage to it. Even though adamantium will ignore the hardness of rock, rock tends to have quite a bit of hit points. So yes, adamantium can cut through rock, but it takes a while.

Drogorn
2010-09-19, 04:50 PM
Remember that material hit points is generally per inch. While they might be able to cut through a barrier, it will take a while, and it will be noisy unless they want it to take even longer.

Zaydos
2010-09-19, 04:51 PM
Adamantine ignores hardness of 20 or less. Items still get hp, though. Using a character with 18 strength and a longsword they could probably cut through !" of leather easily (5 hp), could cut through 1" of wood in one hit (10 hp, so they could do it but it would be difficult), and couldn't cut through 1" of stone in a single blow (15 hp). They'd be likely to leave a noticeable notch but not destroy it.

Now looking at if they were using a greatsword they could reliably cut through 1" of wood (11 in 12 chance), have a chance of cutting through an inch of stone (need to roll a 9 or higher) but couldn't take out 2 full inches of wood in a single blow.

If they have Power Attack and are using a greatsword... assuming Lv 5... they could cut through 2 inches of wood reliably but still not cut through a single inch of steel.

Edit: Also remember the DMG lists increased hardness for magically treated walls.

mostlyharmful
2010-09-19, 04:54 PM
the hardness spell is your friend. Adamantine ignores hardness below 20 but hardness 21+ applys in full according to a strict interpretation of the relivant passages. Taking important locations to a relivant hardness in a world where adamantine exists is only reasonable.

Ernir
2010-09-19, 04:55 PM
So several of my players have adamantine weapons. Because of adamantine's purported "cut through anything" property, their immediate reaction to a barrier is to cut it apart. This strikes me as ridiculous. I mean, diamonds are harder than stone, that doesn't mean they glide through stone without slowing. How do I dissuade my players from using adamantine as a universal knife?

Adamantine is ridiculous. You are the DM, so you can change the rules text on adamantine, but as is, it is the ultimate can opener.

Anyway, to say something more useful - I'd imagine that even if they can hack through iron and stone without denting their weapon or it even taking very long, they aren't going to do it without everyone within half a mile knowing it. Crushing metal against stone means white-hot sparks, fragments of superheated debris flying everywhere, and a noise that sounds a bit like a plane crash. The Rogue shouldn't sell his lockpick just yet.

dgnslyr
2010-09-19, 04:58 PM
A bit more silliness: A warforged with Adamantine Body's slam attack. Would it be considered adamantine? Could he body-slam his way through a wall? Or does adamantine's hardness-bypassing quality only apply to edged weapons?

Mr.Moron
2010-09-19, 04:59 PM
It's not instant, but given a decent amount of time it can get through just about anything with hardness less than 20. Standard barriers are still going to present a real problem outside of combat, but when you aren't tracking things round-by-round even thick walls won't stay up for long.

Assuming modest stats a 20ft-thick stone wall might keep a team of characters on the lower end of mid levels armed with adamantine tools at bay for about 10,15 minutes or so of in-game time. Much less if they've got an optimized Power Attacker on board.

You're not going stop them totally short of a house rule changing what adamatine does or some home brew about items breaking from the stress of overuse.

Zaydos
2010-09-19, 05:03 PM
Magically treated iron walls have hardness 20. So those can be used when thematically appropriate (Illithids and drow? Yes. Ogres? Probably not).

Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 05:04 PM
A bit more silliness: A warforged with Adamantine Body's slam attack. Would it be considered adamantine? Could he body-slam his way through a wall? Or does adamantine's hardness-bypassing quality only apply to edged weapons?

The hardness bypassing applies to any item made of adamantine, not only edged weapons. You can adamantine hammer your way through rock.

Heliomance
2010-09-19, 05:06 PM
Are there any rules for slicing your way through, applying constant pressure and maybe sawing, instead of hacking at it?

lord_khaine
2010-09-19, 05:08 PM
A bit more silliness: A warforged with Adamantine Body's slam attack. Would it be considered adamantine? Could he body-slam his way through a wall? Or does adamantine's hardness-bypassing quality only apply to edged weapons?

But a Warforget with Adamantine body does not count as possesing a Adamantine weapon, so it wont work.

Read the description of the feat, it only gives an armor reinforced with an adamantine alloy.

Ernir
2010-09-19, 05:09 PM
Are there any rules for slicing your way through, applying constant pressure and maybe sawing, instead of hacking at it?

Hacksaws are described in Dungeonscape. It's still a matter of damage vs. object HP, though.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-19, 05:10 PM
Magically treated iron walls have hardness 20. So those can be used when thematically appropriate (Illithids and drow? Yes. Ogres? Probably not).

Adamantine cares not about your magically treated iron walls!

(It ignores hardness 20 and under. That includes hardness 20. You want hardness 21+.)


Are there any rules for slicing your way through, applying constant pressure and maybe sawing, instead of hacking at it?

Nope, and if there were it would work out to about the same anyway - slicing and sawing takes time.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 05:22 PM
Adamantine cares not about your magically treated iron walls!

(It ignores hardness 20 and under. That includes hardness 20. You want hardness 21+.)

This ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20.

Hardness 20 isn't ignored.

Zeful
2010-09-19, 05:31 PM
So several of my players have adamantine weapons. Because of adamantine's purported "cut through anything" property, their immediate reaction to a barrier is to cut it apart. This strikes me as ridiculous. I mean, diamonds are harder than stone, that doesn't mean they glide through stone without slowing. How do I dissuade my players from using adamantine as a universal knife?

Point out the HP totals of walls. A 1ft thick wall has 180 hp per 5ft section. Unless your players are only uberchargers that should take 3-4 rounds to cut a five foot hole through a wall.

Zaydos
2010-09-19, 05:32 PM
Adamantine cares not about your magically treated iron walls!

(It ignores hardness 20 and under. That includes hardness 20. You want hardness 21+.)



Nope, and if there were it would work out to about the same anyway - slicing and sawing takes time.

Adamantine is hardness 20; it only ignores those with hardness less than its.

Prime32
2010-09-19, 05:34 PM
Note that you cannot sunder with a piercing weapon, and ranged attacks deal half damage.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering

Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-09-19, 05:41 PM
Note that you cannot sunder with a piercing weapon...

You meant like picks? :smalltongue:

Heliomance
2010-09-19, 05:44 PM
Nope, and if there were it would work out to about the same anyway - slicing and sawing takes time.

But it's less noisy.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-19, 05:46 PM
Yeah, try not to think about that too hard.

My favorite solution is traps. If your default reaction to a door is "hit it a lot", you pretty much guaranteed setting off most types of traps that may be involved with it.

And, obviously, you announce your presence to monsters on the other side. Unless you LIKE opponents getting readied actions or surprise rounds, a little common sense is in order.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-19, 05:47 PM
Adamantine is ridiculous. You are the DM, so you can change the rules text on adamantine, but as is, it is the ultimate can opener.

Anyway, to say something more useful - I'd imagine that even if they can hack through iron and stone without denting their weapon or it even taking very long, they aren't going to do it without everyone within half a mile knowing it. Crushing metal against stone means white-hot sparks, fragments of superheated debris flying everywhere, and a noise that sounds a bit like a plane crash. The Rogue shouldn't sell his lockpick just yet.
There's a 2nd level spell that would like to contradict you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm)

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-19, 05:47 PM
That is, of course, unless the party uses Silence regularly...

AslanCross
2010-09-19, 08:29 PM
Repeating what everyone has said:

1. Adamatine weapons DON'T glide through barriers; they're just better at breaking them down than anything that doesn't have epic hardness. It will still take a while to open a door.

2. Breaking down a door can have consequences. Noise is one that is dealt with; of course, there's also trapping it and even having the destruction of the door or wall cause structural failure in the building (you don't have to do rocks fall, everyone dies, of course, but falling debris is likely to deal damage and block passages).

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-09-19, 09:45 PM
Are there any rules for slicing your way through, applying constant pressure and maybe sawing, instead of hacking at it?
Remember that a damage roll is abstract. A single damage roll can represent 6 seconds of constant pressure or sawing just as much as it can represent a single hack. Heck, a single damage roll could also represent multiple hacks, depending on the item and technique being used.

Erom
2010-09-19, 09:58 PM
Summary: your mistake was not letting the adamantine cut through stone - a diamond saw, after all, will go through nearly any stone - but to let it cut through stone *instantly*. Even a diamond blade takes some time to get through stone - multiple hits to wear down the HP, in game terms.

balistafreak
2010-09-19, 10:19 PM
There's a similiar problem with the Mountain Hammer strike out of the Tome of Battle, out of the discipline that ALL of the ToB classes have access too.

But it isn't nearly as ridiculous as it seems. Again, to reiterate, time, noise, effort involved, and structural failure.

The failure of one beam in our school caused the entire gym to collapse shortly afterward. Think about that. Perhaps some Knowledge (architecture and engineering) checks to only cut through non-loadbearing areas, and that would be invalidated with many cases of more primitive engineering (i.e. solid stone wall). You can't just cut a man-sized hole in something like that and expect it to not collapse, after all.

Oh yeah, also: the STUFF. In cramped quarters, you have to have somewhere to put your excavated barrier. Remember that the next time the party suggests "Screw it let's burrow out of our cell".

Greenish
2010-09-19, 10:23 PM
solid stone wall). You can't just cut a man-sized hole in something like that and expect it to not collapse, after all.That doesn't sound very "solid" to me. :smallamused:

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-20, 12:46 AM
Also, rock dust? Not fun to breathe.

Speaking as someone with a good deal of practical experience with breaking things and some with tunneling, you could have the best tool for slamming into and ripping walls or doors down, and end up even more trapped.

Also, if they knock down a door, they can't close it behind them, it's obvious they came through, and if they want to camp, they can't relock it for a measure of security.

Mikeavelli
2010-09-20, 01:00 AM
That doesn't sound very "solid" to me. :smallamused:

I know you're just snarking, but it's so very true. Takes a lot of Engineering talent to cut through "solid" rock without it collapsing.

Even with it, we still have mines collapsing pretty often in the real world. You hear about them on the news every once in a while.

[hr]

Honestly though, once you get to mid-levels, bashing your way through obstacles is to be expected. If they're not hacking through obstacles with Adamant picks, they're disintegrating stuff with disintegrate or flying over it with mass fly or Dimension Dooring or whatever.

I remember one adventure where the DM put an Adamintine door in our way.

After searching for traps, I said, "Hang up guys. We're taking this thing with us. Do you have any idea how much this stuff is WORTH?"

Keep this in mind when using any exotic materials to try and thwart your players, as chances are someone in your group will think of it.

ericgrau
2010-09-20, 01:08 AM
That's usually dirt not rock. I'm not a fan of adding in questionably accurate "realism" to solve D&D problems in general for that matter.

Yeah, adamantine doing things that diamond cannot is silly. Yeah, stone does still have a lot of hitpoints so it takes a while anyway. You can house rule it or you can live with it. I mean anything the players can get through in 5 minutes they can get through in 50 minutes, so it won't make the greatest difference either way. Barriers are never barriers, they are only delays. Which is perfectly fine as long as the dungeon also contains monsters who won't give the PCs 50 minutes to dig. And yeah, making uber barriers is not only futile and handing money to the PCs, it makes no sense for the dungeon builders to have so much money to make a door more valuable than the thing behind it.

Beorn080
2010-09-20, 01:17 AM
Remember though, as soon as they can reliably and easily cast stone shape, don't give them valuable doors, since they will just walk off with them.

Also, be glad they decided to go through the door, which can be several inches thick, and not, say, the hinges, which tend to be significantly thinner then an inch.

If your an evil DM, cover doors with paper, and put explosive runes under the paper. Now they can't bypass doors by smashing anymore.

Chrono22
2010-09-20, 01:41 AM
I just houserule that any object with hardness automatically overcomes the hardness of substances with a lower hardness.
So, using a steel hammer to break down a wooden door is more effective than using your a whiffle bat.

Drogorn
2010-09-20, 11:32 AM
That's usually dirt not rock. I'm not a fan of adding in questionably accurate "realism" to solve D&D problems in general for that matter.
Was this in reference to mine collapses? Because you're completely and utterly wrong if it is. Mines are in rock, not dirt, and mines collapse because that "solid" rock has hundreds of thousands of tons of rock bearing down on it.

ka_bna
2010-09-20, 12:06 PM
A bit more silliness: A warforged with Adamantine Body's slam attack. Would it be considered adamantine? Could he body-slam his way through a wall? Or does adamantine's hardness-bypassing quality only apply to edged weapons?
You're a warforged with an adamantine body? Thread very carefully, as you stomp/walk on the ground... Stomp hard enough, and you'll get a tunnel to the other side of the world/plane...

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-09-20, 12:40 PM
Yeah, adamantine doing things that diamond cannot is silly.
Why? What makes it so silly? Adamantine is not diamond. It has different strengths and weaknesses. And it is explicitly fantastic.

Ormagoden
2010-09-20, 01:12 PM
Was this in reference to mine collapses? Because you're completely and utterly wrong if it is. Mines are in rock, not dirt, and mines collapse because that "solid" rock has hundreds of thousands of tons of rock bearing down on it.

Also utterly wrong, but I'm being snarky as opposed to confrontational...Some mines are in salt. But hell if there was a peanut butter deposit with gold in it somewhere there would be a peanutbutter mine. It's all a matter of where you're diggin!

true_shinken
2010-09-20, 01:13 PM
I mean anything the players can get through in 5 minutes they can get through in 50 minutes, so it won't make the greatest difference either way.

Sure, unless you have an active buff. How about a few angry, hungry, feral werebadger ogre mages chasing you?!

Drogorn
2010-09-20, 01:26 PM
Also utterly wrong, but I'm being snarky as opposed to confrontational...Some mines are in salt. But hell if there was a peanut butter deposit with gold in it somewhere there would be a peanutbutter mine. It's all a matter of where you're diggin!
Eh, salt is still rock, that's why it's called "rock salt." But now I'm just being pedantic when your main point is correct.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-20, 02:49 PM
If your an evil DM, cover doors with paper, and put explosive runes under the paper. Now they can't bypass doors by smashing anymore.

That is genius. :smalleek:

Cogidubnus
2010-09-20, 03:34 PM
It's not instant, but given a decent amount of time it can get through just about anything with hardness less than 20. Standard barriers are still going to present a real problem outside of combat, but when you aren't tracking things round-by-round even thick walls won't stay up for long.

Assuming modest stats a 20ft-thick stone wall might keep a team of characters on the lower end of mid levels armed with adamantine tools at bay for about 10,15 minutes or so of in-game time. Much less if they've got an optimized Power Attacker on board.

You're not going stop them totally short of a house rule changing what adamatine does or some home brew about items breaking from the stress of overuse.

You know, I actually quite like the idea of the PCs cutting their way through a stone wall in 10-15 minutes. I think it's cool. But yeah, if they do it every time, make it impossible. Traps that cast 3 walls of frost a round so they can't cut through it fast enough, walls with adamantine ore running through them (cave systems), traps, or simply having that much noise attract 5-6 encounters worth of attention will do it. If they have to take 3 rests to cut through the wall cos monsters keep hearing them, they'll get bored.

Beorn080
2010-09-20, 03:49 PM
I'd be careful with putting adamantine ore in the walls to stop tunneling. Your already having problems with it. Did you really want them to start making adamantine ballista bolts and storing a ballista in their portable hole?

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-20, 03:53 PM
I'd be careful with putting adamantine ore in the walls to stop tunneling. Your already having problems with it. Did you really want them to start making adamantine ballista bolts and storing a ballista in their portable hole?

Look up some of the CHEAPEST ways to get iron up to 21 hardness, and use that! not as pricey as adamantine, since it's just hardened iron...

Heliomance
2010-09-20, 03:53 PM
If your an evil DM, cover doors with paper, and put explosive runes under the paper. Now they can't bypass doors by smashing anymore.

The Barbarian can.

Zaydos
2010-09-20, 04:10 PM
You know, I actually quite like the idea of the PCs cutting their way through a stone wall in 10-15 minutes. I think it's cool. But yeah, if they do it every time, make it impossible. Traps that cast 3 walls of frost a round so they can't cut through it fast enough, walls with adamantine ore running through them (cave systems), traps, or simply having that much noise attract 5-6 encounters worth of attention will do it. If they have to take 3 rests to cut through the wall cos monsters keep hearing them, they'll get bored.

Power Attack + Leap Attack + 2-handed weapon + Pounce. 20-ft thick? By level 11 that's not going to last but 3 or so minutes. I've seen (2) characters who could cut down a 5-ft thick wall in 1 round.

Hawriel
2010-09-20, 04:23 PM
I was talking about this with my DM just this morning. It started with talking about DR and golems. We know why adamantine is used game wise. its just not done right. 3rd ed writers have been reading to many comic books with wolverine.

I would just take away that ability of adamantine across the board. However keep any properites that adjusts hardness to items made from it.

ryuteki
2010-09-20, 04:30 PM
Just start having it attract level-inappropriate encounters if they are at it for more than a few rounds. Alternately, all that noise in stone can attract xorns, purple worms, elementals... whatever burrows through stone. Remember the thumpers and sandworms of Dune? Borrow from that. :)

Coidzor
2010-09-20, 04:40 PM
Just start having it attract level-inappropriate encounters if they are at it for more than a few rounds. Alternately, all that noise in stone can attract xorns, purple worms, elementals... whatever burrows through stone. Remember the thumpers and sandworms of Dune? Borrow from that. :)

This would cause fridge logic about how anyone manages to do any mining and how the dwarves are still alive if that's the case. As regular tools are much slower and more rhythmic.

Also, be careful with having monsters spawn to attack them. They'll eventually treat it as an XP sink to expect and set up ambushes and bog down the campaign even further than a time-skip to 20 minutes later when they bust through the wall and meet a readied action volley of arrows from a couple of roomfulls of encounters who figured out what was going on and decided to wait around for 'em together.

Leon
2010-09-21, 10:24 AM
Ive used a Adamantine Longsword in one game as a impromptu lock pick - align over lock with point and give several sharp taps and the pommel and presto no more lock.

houlio
2010-09-21, 10:44 AM
On the problem of tunneling through walls of solid rock, the PC's may be able to cut through the rock, but what will they do with the very heavy slab of cut rock in front of them once they're done? If they can move it, where will they then put it (assuming a cramped space, this could block of escape routes and the like).

Remember, just because you can cut something doesn't mean it goes away, it just gets cut up.

Greenish
2010-09-21, 10:56 AM
I just houserule that any object with hardness automatically overcomes the hardness of substances with a lower hardness.
So, using a steel hammer to break down a wooden door is more effective than using your a whiffle bat.That kind of hurts characters using wooden weapons (say, a quarterstaff), since now every enemy can sunder them away like nothing.

The Barbarian can.I do love that ACF. :smallcool:

Optimator
2010-09-21, 02:51 PM
Remember, just because you can cut something doesn't mean it goes away, it just gets cut up.

Considering you deal combat damage to a 5x5 area I would imagine there would be many pieces and rubble, not a uniform slab they delicately cut out. That's silly.

Voshkod
2010-09-21, 02:58 PM
You guys missed the obvious solution.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iBDQOXCHTEU/S8Ep2VDifnI/AAAAAAAAAnE/VKsj_8VEYm4/s1600/rust+monster+dmg+will+mclean+cartoon.JPG

Just have them meet the one-of-a-kind adamantine-eating rust monster.

Heliomance
2010-09-21, 03:09 PM
That kind of hurts characters using wooden weapons (say, a quarterstaff), since now every enemy can sunder them away like nothing.
I do love that ACF. :smallcool:
ACF? Illiteracy comes as standard.

Zaydos
2010-09-21, 03:27 PM
Considering you deal combat damage to a 5x5 area I would imagine there would be many pieces and rubble, not a uniform slab they delicately cut out. That's silly.

Technically walls' hp and break DC is for a 10 x 10 square (5-ft thick) so you've got 4 times as much rubble. Also the Stronghold Builder's Guide does have rules for structural damage caused by destroying walls so you might just cause a cave-in (I'd have to re-read those rules to know for sure).

jiriku
2010-09-21, 03:42 PM
There's a similiar problem with the Mountain Hammer strike out of the Tome of Battle, out of the discipline that ALL of the ToB classes have access too.

But it isn't nearly as ridiculous as it seems. Again, to reiterate, time, noise, effort involved, and structural failure.

The failure of one beam in our school caused the entire gym to collapse shortly afterward. Think about that. Perhaps some Knowledge (architecture and engineering) checks to only cut through non-loadbearing areas, and that would be invalidated with many cases of more primitive engineering (i.e. solid stone wall). You can't just cut a man-sized hole in something like that and expect it to not collapse, after all.

Oh yeah, also: the STUFF. In cramped quarters, you have to have somewhere to put your excavated barrier. Remember that the next time the party suggests "Screw it let's burrow out of our cell".

+1

It isn't specifically addressed in the rules, but when the players attempt to use adamantine weapons to hack their way through solid stone in an underground dungeon, I tell them that producing a usable tunnel without collapsing the ceiling on their heads will require a very difficult Profession (mining) check, or a somewhat easier Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check if they intend to build and install supports (which of course will take hours).

If they're excavating in a hurry, I also assign a reasonable time cost for the task of clearing rubble out of the way. You may be able to hack your way through a 5x5x10 section of stone wall fairly quickly, but you'll have to clear out 250 cubic feet of rubble along the way!

Kantolin
2010-09-21, 03:59 PM
I am curiosu why it's such a bad thing that the PCs can tunnel well and this is effective.

Is it that they're able to make it to the dragon's lair without fighting the two orcs standing in the room in between? That doesn't strike me as a terrible thing either. If they do it really often, so much the better - they've come up with a reasonable tactic that works based on their new cool stuff. In most games, adamantine cutting through things literally never comes up.

If you must give them a drawback for using their new stuff, then I'd agree on the 'noise' aspect. But unless the point of the game was 'Specifically go into the room the PCs are bypassing', I'd tell them kudos for skipping, make it clear that this is a great idea and is being very successful sa further encouragement, and plan for when they enter the dragon's room to get the treasure.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 04:04 PM
I am curiosu why it's such a bad thing that the PCs can tunnel well and this is effective.

Is it that they're able to make it to the dragon's lair without fighting the two orcs standing in the room in between? That doesn't strike me as a terrible thing either. If they do it really often, so much the better - they've come up with a reasonable tactic that works based on their new cool stuff. In most games, adamantine cutting through things literally never comes up.

If you must give them a drawback for using their new stuff, then I'd agree on the 'noise' aspect. But unless the point of the game was 'Specifically go into the room the PCs are bypassing', I'd tell them kudos for skipping, make it clear that this is a great idea and is being very successful sa further encouragement, and plan for when they enter the dragon's room to get the treasure.

The problem is not the usage of the tactic, but ignoring its drawbacks. There are drawbacks because they are there in the game's mechanics.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-21, 06:15 PM
The problem is not the usage of the tactic, but ignoring its drawbacks. There are drawbacks because they are there in the game's mechanics.

What drawbacks would those be? There's nothing in the rules that says destroying walls causes buildings to collapse.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 06:20 PM
What drawbacks would those be? There's nothing in the rules that says destroying walls causes buildings to collapse.

The time it takes to cut through. The fact it's noisy (and don't "no rules on that" me. Hearing a battle is dc -10 and battles are less noisy than beating adamantine against rock). And if you go to a book that is actually focused on the structures in the game, there are rules for collapsing buildings.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-21, 06:37 PM
I invented a magical door that is immune to physical damage, dubbed the rubber door by my PC's if struck it sends the attacker back a number of feet equal to the damage they dealt.


A bit more silliness: A warforged with Adamantine Body's slam attack. Would it be considered adamantine? Could he body-slam his way through a wall?

No, adamantine body may grant a warforged DR but it doesn't make their attacks ignore hardness or even count as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming DR.
The feat doesn't grant anything beyond what it says.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-09-21, 06:54 PM
What drawbacks would those be? There's nothing in the rules that says destroying walls causes buildings to collapse.
Not sure if there’s anything like this in the DMG or SRD, but as Zaydos mentioned, there are rules in the Stronghold Builder’s Guidebook on collateral damage, where destroying a section of wall causes damage to adjacent sections—particularly sections above.

That said, a certain level of “We don’t need no rules, just common sense” applies here. Destroy all the walls on the first floor, what’s holding the second up?

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-21, 06:56 PM
That said, a certain level of “We don’t need no rules, just common sense” applies here. Destroy all the walls on the first floor, what’s holding the second up?

Hope, prayer and belief?

(Hint: in the Great Wheel Cosmology, that is literally enough. As long as it's a lot of belief.)

Ravens_cry
2010-09-21, 07:00 PM
I invented a magical door that is immune to physical damage, dubbed the rubber door by my PC's if struck it sends the attacker back a number of feet equal to the damage they dealt.

Now take it off it's hinges, (cutting around the door if necessary) sovereign glue some handles, and huzzah: best tower shield ever.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-21, 07:01 PM
That said, a certain level of “We don’t need no rules, just common sense” applies here. Destroy all the walls on the first floor, what’s holding the second up?

Spiral energy! Who the hell do I am! :smallbiggrin:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-21, 07:10 PM
Now take it off it's hinges, (cutting around the door if necessary) sovereign glue some handles, and huzzah: best tower shield ever.

Except when it sends both parties a distance equal to the damage dealt, one could also strap it to the bottom of a chair and hop of a cliff. But no the door would simply stop functioning once removed, no way I'd let that work.and cutting around it would take an ungodly amount of time.[hinges are part of the door and thus have the same magic] *and obviously the door could be bolted five feet into the rock if I so chose*

I could have just as easily designed a magic door with a wall of force protecting it, but the rubber door sounded funner and accomplished the exact same thing.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 07:13 PM
Except when it sends both parties a distance equal to the damage dealt, but no the door would simply stop functioning once removed, no way I'd let that work.and cutting around it would take an ungodly amount of time.[hinges are part of the door and thus have the same magic] *and obviously the door could be bolted five feet into the rock if I so chose*

XD Just dispel the magic if the door is displaced. For added giggles, let new doors built in there accept the magic effect a few rounds after it settles. I'd love to ready an action to close the door as the hobgoblin charges.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-21, 07:18 PM
Except when it sends both parties a distance equal to the damage dealt, one could also strap it to the bottom of a chair and hop of a cliff. But no the door would simply stop functioning once removed, no way I'd let that work.and cutting around it would take an ungodly amount of time.[hinges are part of the door and thus have the same magic] *and obviously the door could be bolted five feet into the rock if I so chose*
I could have just as easily designed a magic door with a wall of force protecting it, but the rubber door sounded funner and accomplished the exact same thing.
You sound like the kind of DM who makes doors that are enchanted to be hard like adamantine until taking out of a dungeon.:smallyuk:

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 07:19 PM
Now take it off it's hinges, (cutting around the door if necessary) sovereign glue some handles, and huzzah: best tower shield ever.

<3_<3
Wunderbar...

Ravens_cry
2010-09-21, 07:32 PM
<3_<3
Wunderbar...
:smallredface: I am glad you approve.:smallbiggrin:

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 07:42 PM
:smallredface: I am glad you approve.:smallbiggrin:

well, the rubber effect would only show up if someone tried to sunder it. Blocking with your shield causes no damage.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-21, 07:44 PM
well, the rubber effect would only show up if someone tried to sunder it. Blocking with your shield causes no damage.
Maybe, that one time will be worth it though.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 07:50 PM
Oh, it definitely will! Cast suggestion on the ubercharger "That shield is getting in your way, break it!"

Ravens_cry
2010-09-21, 08:02 PM
Oh, it definitely will! Cast suggestion on the ubercharger "That shield is getting in your way, break it!"
Oh indubitably, chum!:smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 08:08 PM
Oh indubitably, chum!:smalltongue:

The thought of mr shock trooper ubercharger frenzy berserker power attacking with his lance makes me giggle.
"Did he fly..."
"250 feet? yup"
"Actually, I think it was like 350"
"Either way he's out for now"

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 08:10 PM
Would it trigger with the first attack, or would pouncing be able to come into play too?

Heh... I'm imagining a character taking advantage of some steel cable and sovereign glue and feather fall to travel large distances...

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 08:13 PM
Would it trigger with the first attack, or would pouncing be able to come into play too?

Heh... I'm imagining a character taking advantage of some steel cable and sovereign glue and feather fall to travel large distances...

Alternatively, rule that it pushes on both directions (like half damage as feet to each side), and it becomes an escape mechanism XD uber charger? bye-beeeeeeeee

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-21, 08:17 PM
well, the rubber effect would only show up if someone tried to sunder it. Blocking with your shield causes no damage.

True but with shield bash you'd have a very effective means of making a vertical jump.


You sound like the kind of DM who makes doors that are enchanted to be hard like adamantine until taking out of a dungeon.:smallyuk:

Nah I just tend to have the doors do bad things when attacked, once put a crushing ceiling trap that triggered by the door being hit hard enough. Another fun trick is to have the room with a dozen iron doors they all lead to dead ends, water filled rooms or other nasty hazards. You can either find the key to to unlock the right door, or bash down everyone and suffer the consequences.

Edit: WOW I see people really like the idea of the rubber door, I may have to let my party find one off its hinges just to see what they do with it.

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 08:24 PM
True but with shield bash you'd have a very effective means of making a vertical jump.

Unfortunately or fortunately, I don't think one can shield bash with a tower shield.

Maybe use it as an improvised weapon though...?

Hague
2010-09-21, 08:31 PM
If the creature has DR/Adamantine, that means it's natural attacks count as adamantine. Slam attacks are natural weapons, if the natural weapon is adamantine, then it functions as a "weapon made of adamantine" and therefore ignores hardness below 20. An adamantine-bodied warforged would have DR 8/adamantine, and therefore have an adamantine slam attack.'

Edit: The solution is then, to make the door a "door golem" and therefore resists adamantine.

Zaydos
2010-09-21, 08:36 PM
If the creature has DR/Adamantine, that means it's natural attacks count as adamantine. Slam attacks are natural weapons, if the natural weapon is adamantine, then it functions as a "weapon made of adamantine" and therefore ignores hardness below 20. An adamantine-bodied warforged would have DR 8/adamantine, and therefore have an adamantine slam attack.'

Edit: The solution is then, to make the door a "door golem" and therefore resists adamantine.

Nope. That's how DR worked in 3.0 but in 3.5 only DR /magic and DR /epic make your natural weapons by-pass that type of DR (an alignment subtype bypasses aligned DR as if your natural weapons are that type). Special materials are still needed; a werewolf can't penetrate another werewolf's DR.

Ravens_cry
2010-09-21, 08:37 PM
Nah I just tend to have the doors do bad things when attacked, once put a crushing ceiling trap that triggered by the door being hit hard enough. Another fun trick is to have the room with a dozen iron doors they all lead to dead ends, water filled rooms or other nasty hazards. You can either find the key to to unlock the right door, or bash down everyone and suffer the consequences.

Exactly, you sound like a gygaxian dungeon master, in love with their ideas to the point that no other idea will work; the earlier comment was a reference to the ultimate, to my knowledge, gygaxian dungeon: the Tomb of Horrors. If players want to play a 'kick all doors in and take names' style of play, what's wrong with letting them? Not everyone wants to play 'Read-the-DM's-mind-or-die'. Yes, this is a criticism, not of you as a person, but of what I feel to be a rather arbitrary style of Dungeon Mastering.

Zaydos
2010-09-21, 08:39 PM
If doors are nasty when attacked that just means I attack the walls around them.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-21, 08:43 PM
Exactly, you sound like a gygaxian dungeon master, in love with their ideas to the point that no other idea will work; the earlier comment was a reference to the ultimate, to my knowledge, gygaxian dungeon: the Tomb of Horrors. If players want to play a 'kick all doors in and take names' style of play, what's wrong with letting them? Not everyone wants to play 'Read-the-DM's-mind-or-die'. Yes, this is a criticism, not of you as a person, but of what I feel to be a rather arbitrary style of Dungeon Mastering.

Its not an every door thing, just the doors someone thought were for something very important and wanted to slow down or otherwise impede adventures. Whats wrong with having dungeon designers taking adventuring in mind?
And for players who don't want to kick all doors in and take names style of play, actually having an element that discourages that behavior is considered desirable as if you can bash down every door chances are you won't intentionally make things more difficult for yourself then you have to.

What I've described are all basically traps, plain and simple, if I have a door trapped with a lightning bolt or finger of death how different is it really then the rubber door? or the crushing ceiling door? Its simply additional obstacles put in the players path to make their lives more difficult which is part of being the dungeon master.

Whats wrong with making the dungeons themselves as interesting and dynamic places as the NPC's, monsters and other encounters instead of simply an organized structure to direct the PC's from one enemy to another.

ericgrau
2010-09-21, 08:48 PM
Was this in reference to mine collapses? Because you're completely and utterly wrong if it is. Mines are in rock, not dirt, and mines collapse because that "solid" rock has hundreds of thousands of tons of rock bearing down on it.
Mines are in dirt and rock.

Unfortunately for the quarrying industry most earth is dirt not stone and "unfortunately" for the mining industry valuable materials are not always in stone. Though actually I'd say "fortunately" because they'd prefer digging through dirt even with the support required.

A short 5'x5' tunnel through stone shouldn't need any supports.

Hague
2010-09-21, 08:48 PM
Huh, you're right. Seems silly to me, seeing as how if I punch with an adamantine gauntlet, it counts as an adamantine weapon, as a gauntlet is a weapon. RAW it isn't, but logically it should :P

Zaydos
2010-09-21, 08:57 PM
Partially it's because many creatures that have DR X/adamantine are actually just made from stone or iron (golems), most creatures that have DR X/cold iron or silver do so because it is anathema to them and completely different than their natures (fey).

Ravens_cry
2010-09-21, 09:24 PM
Its not an every door thing, just the doors someone thought were for something very important and wanted to slow down or otherwise impede adventures. Whats wrong with having dungeon designers taking adventuring in mind?
And for players who don't want to kick all doors in and take names style of play, actually having an element that discourages that behavior is considered desirable as if you can bash down every door chances are you won't intentionally make things more difficult for yourself then you have to.

What I've described are all basically traps, plain and simple, if I have a door trapped with a lightning bolt or finger of death how different is it really then the rubber door? or the crushing ceiling door? Its simply additional obstacles put in the players path to make their lives more difficult which is part of being the dungeon master.

Whats wrong with making the dungeons themselves as interesting and dynamic places as the NPC's, monsters and other encounters instead of simply an organized structure to direct the PC's from one enemy to another.
Actually, the traps you describe could also be defeated by tunnelling on either side of the door. A trap defeated is a trap defeated, whether by a rogue disabling the trap, the fighter hacking their way around, or a magic user casting shape stone. That is a dynamic dungeon, one where logical, if unusual choices work, rather then simply picking a solution and letting only that work. Ever play a video game where you have enough explosives on your person to demolish New York City, yet can't demolish a rickety wooden door? That they can give a much greater sense of agency and choice is why I play table top role playing games. Of course, logical consequences are also appropriate.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 09:29 PM
Actually, the traps you describe could also be defeated by tunnelling on either side of the door. A trap defeated is a trap defeated, whether by a rogue disabling the trap, the fighter hacking their way around, or a magic user casting shape stone. That is a dynamic dungeon, one where logical, if unusual choices work, rather then simply picking a solution and letting only that work. Ever play a video game where you have enough explosives on your person to demolish New York City, yet can't demolish a rickety wooden door? That they can give a much greater sense of agency and choice is why I play table top role playing games. Of course, logical consequences are also appropriate.

In my very first game ever I got to kill a monster with my arm after it was torn off. I never looked at videogames the same way after that.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-22, 02:10 AM
Actually, the traps you describe could also be defeated by tunnelling on either side of the door. A trap defeated is a trap defeated, whether by a rogue disabling the trap, the fighter hacking their way around, or a magic user casting shape stone. That is a dynamic dungeon, one where logical, if unusual choices work, rather then simply picking a solution and letting only that work. Ever play a video game where you have enough explosives on your person to demolish New York City, yet can't demolish a rickety wooden door? That they can give a much greater sense of agency and choice is why I play table top role playing games. Of course, logical consequences are also appropriate.

When did I ever describe only one solution worked far as I can tell I never did, I simply try to make a few doors a little harder to open then smashing them down. Sometimes you have to pick the right door, sometimes the door bites back and a few times the door contained an unspeakable evil the party unleashes upon the world. But most of the time its a door and it doesn't really matter if its locked or not, as mundane doors are only worth mentioning so the party doesn't know right away when a special one comes up.

When bashing down the door always works its more or less what you always do unless the rogue can open the lock by taking ten.