3.5 Base Class: The Evolved v1.1

[ArcanistSupreme]

The Evolved
http://th09.deviantart.net/fs19/PRE/i/2007/284/e/2/Sabertooth_by_Frizzelle.jpg
They wish to cure us. But I say to you, we are the cure!
-Eric Lensherr, an evolved.

Alignment: Any
Starting Gold: 2d4*10 (50)
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: The evolved’s class skills (and key ability score for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge(nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int Modifier
THE EVOLVED
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Aspect Size

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Heightened Sense, Aspect of the Evolved|+0

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|Evolved Defenses, Powerful Build|+0

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Darkvision, Evasion|+0

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Heightened Sense, Evolved Defenses, Evolved Mobility|+0

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Improved Aspect|+1

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2|Supernatural Aspect, Evolved Defenses|+1

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2|Heightened Sense|+1

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+2|Improved Evasion, Evolved Defenses|+1

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+3|Enhanced Musculature, Evolved Mobility|+1

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+3|Heightened Sense, Evolved Defenses, Continued Evolution|+2

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+3|Bigger and Better|+2

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|Evolved Defenses|+2

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|Heightened Sense|+2

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+4|Hide in Plain Sight, Evolved Defenses, Evolved Mobility|+2

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+5|Greater Evolution|+3

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Heightened Sense, Evolved Defenses|+3

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5||+3

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Evolved Defenses|+3

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Heightened Sense, Evolved Mobility|+3

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Pinnacle of Evolution, Evolved Defenses|+4[/table]

Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the evolved.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An evolved is proficient with the following weapons: greatclub, scythe, longbow, composite longbow, as well as all simple weapons. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) they gain through their chosen aspects.

An evolved is proficient with light and medium armor but not shields.

Aspect of the Evolved (Ex): An evolved is more than a mere member of his own race. At first level an evolved chooses one of the following three aspects, which improves and develops as he grows in strength.

Claws of the Evolved
The hands of the evolved grow into claws, and he gains two claw attacks (1d4 damage for medium creatures and 1d3 for small creatures). He can attack with a claw as a light off-hand weapon while wielding a weapon in her primary hand, but all his attacks in that round take a –2 penalty.

Fangs of the Evolved
The teeth of the evolved elongate and sharpen. He gains a bite attack (1d6 damage for medium creatures and 1d4 for small creatures). He can use his bite as a secondary attack (taking a –5 penalty on his attack roll) while wielding a weapon.

Tail of the Evolved
The tail-bone of the evolved elongates and forms into a long, muscular tail. He gains a tail slap attack (1d6 damage for medium creatures and 1d4 for small creatures). He also gains a +2 bonus on trip attempts.
Heightened Senses: An evolved has senses far superior to a normal member of his race. He gains low-light vision and can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. If the evolved already has low-light vision, increase the distance of his low-light vision by a factor of one (two times becomes three times, three times becomes four times, etc.). In addition, at first level and every three levels thereafter, an evolved gains a new sense of his choice from among the following options. He must meet the prerequisites of each sense.

Ultradark Vision (Su)
Prerequisite: Darkvision
An evolved may see in any type of darkness, including magical darkness, out to the limit of his darkvision.

Scent (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level 4th
An evolved gains scent out to 30 feet. If the smell is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet.

Keen Scent (Su)
Prerequisite: Scent
An evolved doubles the range of his scent. He is also treated as continuously being under the effect of detect animals or plants, but the area is the same as the scent ability of the evolved.

Poison Sniffer (Su)
Prerequisite: Scent, keen scent ability
The scent ability of the evolved has been heightened to the point that he can smell poison and detect deception. An evolved is now treated as being under the continuous effects of detect poison and discern lies, as the spells.

Blindsense (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level 7th
An evolved gains blindsense out to a range of sixty feet. If the evolved is in contact with the ground, the range of his blindsense extends to the range of his tremorsense for purposes of detecting other creatures in contact with the ground.

Tremorsense (Ex)
Prerequisite: Blindsense, evolved level 13th
An evolved gains tremorsense out to 60 feet.

Blindsight (Ex)
Prerequisite: Tremorsense, evolved level 16th
An evolved replaces gains blindsight out to the range of his blindsense.

See Invisibility (Su)
Prerequisite: Evolved level 4th
An evolved is treated as being continuously under the effect of see invisibility, as the spell.

Steadfast Perception (Su)
Prerequisite: Access to see invisibility, either as a spell, spell-like ability, or as a similar ability
An evolved is treated as being continuously under the effect of steadfast perception, as the power, whenever he would otherwise be treated as under the effects of see invisibility.

True Seeing (Su)
Prerequisite: Access to steadfast perception, either as a power, spell-like ability, or as a similar ability, evolved level 19th
An evolved is treated as being continuously under the effect of true seeing, as the spell whenever he would otherwise be treated as under the effects of steadfast perception.

Detect Undead (Su)
An evolved is treated as being continuously under the effect of detect undead, as the spell.

Shadow Sight (Su)
Prerequisite: Access to detect undead, either as a spell, spell-like ability, or as a similar ability
An evolved may use any of its senses to detect creatures and objects on the plane of shadow while the evolved is on the material plane or any other plane that is coterminous with the plane of shadow whenever he is under the effect of detect undead. This ability does not allow further interaction with the creatures or objects on the plane of shadow, it simply allows them to be detected. Creatures and objects sensed this way appear shadowy and indistinct. The evolved is also treated as being continuously under the effect of detect secret doors, as the spell.

Magical Sight (Su)
An evolved is treated as being under the continuous effects of detect magic, as the spell.

Arcane Sight (Su)
Prerequisite: Access to detect magic, either as a spell, spell-like ability, or as a similar ability, evolved level 10th
An evolved is treated as being under the continuous effects of arcane sight, as the spell whenever he is under the effect of detect magic.

Greater Arcane Sight (Su)
Prerequisite: Access to arcane sight, either as a spell, spell-like ability, or as a similar ability, evolved level 16th
An evolved is treated as being under the continuous effects of greater arcane sight, as the spell whenever he is under the effect of arcane sight.
Powerful Build (Ex): At second level, the muscles of the evolved become denser and stronger. The improved physical stature of the evolved lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger.

Whenever an evolved is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the evolved is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

An evolved is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. An evolved can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. If the evolved has powerful build from another source (such as a from a racial ability) it does not stack with this ability.

Evolved Defenses: An evolved is nowhere near as fragile as other members of it's race. At every even numbered level, an evolved may select two defenses from the list below. Each defense may only be selected once unless otherwise noted. The evolved must meet the prerequisites of each defense.

Armored Skin (Ex)
Upon taking this defense, the skin of the evolved thickens and toughens. An evolved gains his class level/2 as a bonus to his natural armor.

Cellular Regeneration (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level 14th
When choosing this ability, select one energy type (fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic). An evolved gains regeneration 1/all energy types except the type chosen. For example, if fire is chosen, the evolved gains regeneration 1/cold or acid or electricity or sonic. This ability may be chosen multiple times. Each additional time this ability is selected, the evolved gains an additional point of regeneration and removes one energy type from his vulnerabilities.
NOTE: An evolved with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies, with the exception of the head. He can also reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached within ten minutes.

Chameleon Skin (Ex)
The skin of the evolved gains the ability to take on the appearance of the environment. This effectively grants the evolved concealment, as well as a competence bonus to hide checks equal to his class level.

Energy Resistant (Ex)
Upon selecting this defense, select one type of energy (fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic). An evolved gains resistance equal to twice his class level to this type of energy. Each time this defense is selected, the evolved gains resistance to a new type of energy.

Enhanced Physique (Ex)
An evolved gains an enhancement bonus to any two physical stats equal to half of his class level.

Fast Healer (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level 6th
Broken bones and damaged tissue can now knit itself back together. An evolved gains fast healing equal to his class level. Unlike normal fast healing, this will only heal the evolved to half of his maximum health. By concentrating and spending a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, he may heal an amount equal to his fast healing beyond this limit. Each additional full-round action spent in concentration will continue heal the same amount, up to his maximum health.

Feral Soul (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level ?th
The evolved needs no longer fear his soul being ripped from his body. He gains immunity to death effects.

Fortified Resistance (Ex)
When selecting this ability, choose one saving throw. The evolved gains a resistance bonus equal to his class level/3. This ability may be selected multiple times. Each time, the evolved gains a resistance bonus to a different saving throw.

Ignore Damage (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level 4th
An evolved gains Damage Reduction. Subtract the evolved's class level/2 from the damage the evolved takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

Rejuvenation (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level 4th
The evolved gains the ability to heal ability damage at the rate of 1/hour.

Robust Immunity (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level ?th
Accustomed to eating whatever is available, the immune system of the evolved builds a resistance to harmful bacteria and poisons. He gains immunity to disease and poison, including supernatural diseases.

Sixth Sense (Ex)
An evolved gains a precognitive sense that allows him to avoid incoming attacks. He adds his evolved class level/6 as a dodge bonus to his AC.

Supernatural Resistance (Ex)
The skin of the evolved gains the ability to shrug off spells. He gains sell resistance equal to his class level+5. This spell resistance, unlike spell resistance gained from other sources, may be voluntarily lowered at any time as a free action, even if it is not your turn (this is not an immediate action), though an evolved must be conscious in order to do so. It may only be raised or lowered once per turn.

Uncontrollable Mind (Ex)
Prerequisite: Evolved level ?th
The mind of the evolved becomes wild and difficult to enchant. He gains immunity to charm and compulsion effects.
Darkvision (Ex): An evolved gains darkvision out to 60 feet at 3rd level. If an evolved already has darkvision from another source, increase the distance of his darkvision by 60 feet.

Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level or higher if an evolved makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if an evolved is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless evolved does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Evolved Mobility: An evolved has adapted beyond the need to rely solely on the normal methods of locomotion for his race. At level 4 and every fifth level afterward, an evolved gains a new movement from the list below.

Spiderwalker (Ex)
The hands and feet of an evolved are capable of finding purchase in any surface. This is an extraordinary ability, but he is otherwise treated as continuously being under the effect of spider climb, as the spell.

Wings (Ex)
Prerequisite: Access to spider climb, either as a spell or similar ability.
An evolved grows great, feathery wings and he gains a fly speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability).

Tireless Wings
Prerequisite: Fly speed
A flying evolved now exerts himself no more than if he were running or walking. His flight speed is doubled, and his mobility improves by one step (to a maximum of perfect).

Fast Movement
An evolved's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +20 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the evolved’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. He also gains Run as a bonus feat.

Sprinter
Prerequisite: Run
Once per hour, an evolved may put on a burst of speed and move up to five times his speed when making a charge. In addition, he gains Mobility as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Peerless Speed
Prerequisites: Run, Mobility
An evolved is now so sure of his footing and so swift that his movement is no longer restricted by terrain. As part of a charge, the evolved may ignore difficult terrain that would otherwise restrict his movement. In addition, he no longer needs to charge only in a straight line, though he may still move up to twice his speed (or five times his speed if using the sprinter ability). He also gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Webbed Feet (Ex)
The hands and feet of the evolved become webbed, and he gains a swim speed of 30 feet. In addition, his lungs adapt to long periods underwater, and he gains the Hold Breath special quality as an extraordinary ability. This allows him to hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Streamlined Swimming (Ex)
Prerequisite: Swim speed
The body of the evolved becomes further adapted to life underwater. His swim speed doubles, and he is now able to breathe in water as freely as he can breathe air. In addition, he is treated as continuously being under the effect of freedom of movement while underwater. This effect is extraordinary rather than a continuous spell effect, and therefore cannot be dispelled by any means.

Tunneler (Ex)
An evolved is not limited to moving above the ground. He gains a burrow speed of 20 ft.

Underground Adaptation (Ex)
Prerequisite: Burrow speed
Stone is no longer an obstacle to the evolved. He can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water and his burrow speed doubles. His burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence.

Dimension Walker (Su)
The evolved has learned how to move through space without the actual physical exertion required by lesser beings. He gains dimension step (PHB II) as a spell-like ability usable 5/day.


Teleportation (Su)
Prerequisite: Dimension step (PHB II) as a spell or spell-like ability
The evolved can now travel even greater distances with little more than a thought. He gains teleport as a spell-like ability usable 3/day. In addition, any use of dimension step as a spell or spell-like ability is treated instead as dimension door.

Planar Traveler (Su)
Prerequisite: Teleport as a spell or spell-like ability
Even planar boundaries are no longer an obstacle to the evolved. He can now use plane shift as a spell-like ability 2/day. In addition, any use of teleport as a spell or spell-like ability is treated instead as greater teleport.
Improved Aspect (Ex): At 5th level, the aspect of the evolved improves, and the damage for his natural weapons increase by one step, as if his size had increased by one category.

If he chose the claws of the evolved aspect, he grows an extra pair of arms, each ending in a claw. These arms function exactly as his original arms do, though only one hand is treated as a primary hand and all others are treated as off hands. He is now eligible for both the Multiweapon Fighting and Multiattack feats (these are not bonus feats).

If he chose the fangs of the evolved aspect, he gains the attach special ability. If the evolved hits with a bite attack, he uses his powerful jaws to latch onto the opponent’s body and automatically deals bite damage each round it remains attached. Other effects, such as poison or disease, that would also be applied to the bite damage are also applied each round. An attached evolved loses his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. An attached evolved can be struck with a weapon or grappled himself. To remove an attached evolved through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the evolved.

If he chose the tail of the evolved aspect, his tail is now treated as a reach weapon. In addition, the tail becomes covered with spikes, and it now deals piercing and bludgeoning or piercing and slashing damage (chosen at the time that this ability is gained).
Supernatural Aspect (Su): At 6th level, the evolved gains the ability to tap into the magical forces within himself and in the world around him. Natural attacks that are a part of his aspect are treated as being continuously under the effect of greater magic fang with a caster level equal to his class level.

Improved Evasion: At 8th level, an evolved’s evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless evolved does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Enhanced Musculature (Ex): At 9th level, the body of an evolved undergoes an excruciating transformation. His bones lengthen, his muscles thicken, and his organs expand. This incredibly painful process can last anywhere from minutes to days, and when it is done, his height is doubled, his weight is multiplied by eight, and his size category is changed to the next larger one. This replaces the powerful build ability.

Continued Evolution (Ex): The aspect of the evolved continues to improve and change. At 10th level, the damage for his natural weapons increase by one step, as if his size had increased by one category, for a total of two size category increases.

If he chose the claws of the evolved aspect, he gains the pounce special ability. If the evolved charges, he may make a full attack. In addition, the evolved gains Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) even if he does not meet the prerequisites, and if he uses his claws to activate the feat he gains a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each claw that hits.

If he chose the fangs of the evolved aspect, his saliva becomes a host for several dangerous diseases. Any creature damaged by the bite attack of the evolved must make a fortitude save or contract blinding sickness, demon fever, and shakes (a separate save is made for each disease). Unlike normal versions of these diseases, these are particularly virulent strains and have an incubation period of 2 rounds, and all have an infection method of injury.

If he chose the tail of the evolved aspect, he gains the ability to launch his tail spikes at foes. With a snap of his tail, an evolved can loose a volley of six spikes as a standard action (make an attack roll for each spike). This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other. The evolved can launch only twenty-four spikes in any 24-hour period, which regrow each night. In addition, any area threatened by the tail slap of the evolved is now treated as difficult terrain for opponents.
Bigger and Better (Su): The evolved gains giant size (CAr) as a spell-like ability usable 3/day at 11th level.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): An evolved of 14th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Greater Aspect (Ex): The evolution of the evolved continues. At 15th level, the damage for his natural weapons increase by one step, as if his size had increased by one category, for a total of three size category increases.

If he chose the claws of the evolved aspect, he gains a rend attack. If the evolved hits with two or more claw attacks, he latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional (claw damage*number of claws that hit+1.5*Str) points of damage.

If he chose the fangs of the evolved aspect, his fangs now drain the blood of those he bites. An evolved deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage each round he remains attached, and it gains temporary hitpoints equal to 5*Con damage inflicted.

If he chose the tail of the evolved aspect, his tail spikes begin to secrete a poison that slows the reflexes and dulls the senses of his prey. This is an injury poison with a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the evolved’s class level + the evolved’s Con modifier), initial and secondary damage 2d6 Dex. This poison applies to both his tail slap and tail spike natural attacks.
Pinnacle of Evolution (Ex): At 20th level, an evolved has reached the peak of his transformation. The damage for his natural weapons increase by one step, as if his size had increased by one category, for a total of four size category increases.

If he chose the claws of the evolved aspect, another pair of fully functional arms sprout from his body, for a total of six arms and claws. These new arms follow all of the same rules and restrictions as those gained from his improved aspect.

If he chose the fangs of the evolved aspect, the wounds inflicted by his fangs are now so toxic that all damage dealt by his bite attack is treated as vile damage, and may only be healed by magic cast within the area of a consecrate or hallow spell. This also applies to ability damage and drain inflicted by diseases and blood drain from the bite attack of the evolved.

If he chose the tail of the evolved aspect, he now gains even further control of the battle field with his tail. Any time the evolved hits a creature with his tail slap, he may initiate a special grapple check that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If he succeeds, the opponent is consider grappled, but the evolved is not. He does not lose his Dex bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can make attacks other than his tail slap (he may still use his tail spikes). In the round that this grapple is initiated, any opponent grappled in this fashion may be moved into any square threatened by your tail slap. In each subsequent round, the evolved may deal tail slap damage to the grappled opponent with a successful grapple check.

VERSION HISTORY:
Version 1.1: Changed defenses from flat bonuses to scaling bonuses. New defenses added and all defenses alphabetized. Powerful build is now replaced with powerful musculature and explicitly does not stack with other instances of powerful build. Powerful musculature moved to level 9. Removed invisibility related SLAs and added evasion, improved evasion, and hide in plain sight. Instances of "character level" replaced with "evolved level." Spell-like abilities now qualify for evolved senses. All instances of "Evolved Power" finally removed from table.

[Morph Bark]

Looking like a fine start so far. I'd put level requirements on some though. Getting DR 4/- at level 2 is... woah.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Looking like a fine start so far. I'd put level requirements on some though. Getting DR 4/- at level 2 is... woah.

Right-o. What level would you suggest?

[Morph Bark]

Right-o. What level would you suggest?

For that particular one 14th at least. But then you can still get it three times for DR 12/-, which is still a lot. Perhaps limit some of the options you've made (or are going to make) to being allowed to being taken only once or twice?

[ArcanistSupreme]

What if I drop it to 2/- and don't permit until level 4?

Oh, and any ideas for powers, movement modes, defenses, or actual class abilities that aren't selected from the menu would be welcome. I also think that the names for a lot of the abilities are pretty flat, and names with more pizazz would be awesome.

[Zaydos]

Just started checking over things, specifically the Evolved Defenses (because of your thread in Roleplaying Games) and I saw something in the natural armor evolution.


Armored Skin (Ex)
An evolved gains a +2 enhancement bonus to his natural armor. If he does not have natural armor, he gains natural armor +2.


If you look into Barkskin and Amulets of Natural Armor they make it clear that for enhancement bonus purposes you are assumed to have a +0 natural armor if not listed as having more. So as written right now the first time you take this if you are a human or other Natural Armor +0 creature you gain +4 natural armor (+2 and +2 enhancement), I doubted this was intentional but wanted to point it out. If it is intentional you should probably up natural armor +1 to +2 as well.

Edit:
Looking over the available abilities I'd probably take:
Low-Light Vision at 1st, See Invisibility at 4th, Darkvision at 7th, Utterdark Vision at 10th, Steadfast Perception at 13th, Magical Sense at 16th, and then True Seeing at 19th. A bunch of really neat, but not broken abilities (See Invisibility + Utterdark Vision = 2 least invocations).

Evolved Defenses:
2nd: Enhanced Physique, Heightened Reflexes
4th: Energy Resistance (1 type), Ignore Damage
6th: Enhanced Physique, Heightened Reflexes
8th: Energy Resistance (same type), Fast Healing
10th: Enhanced Physique, Heightened Reflexes
12th: Energy Resistance (same type), Ignore Damage.
14th: Enhanced Physique, Regeneration
16th: Energy Resistance (same type), Heightened Reflexes.
18th: Enhanced Physique, Ignore Damage.
20th: Energy Resistance (same type), Heightened Reflexes.

If Natural Armor improves base natural armor might take that once.
+5 to AC, +5 to Dex and Str, DR 6/-, Fast Healing 5, and Regen, plus energy resistance 25 to one of the types that bypass regen.

Hope there's a druid in the party to beg one or more castings of Energy Immunity and Barkskin from. Invest in rings of energy resistance. If the druid is selfish invest in Pearls of Power and give them to him in exchange for the daily spell (40,000 GP for +5 enhancement bonus to Nat Armor for 3 hours a day and immunity to energy type of choice for 24 hours).

[ArcanistSupreme]

If you look into Barkskin and Amulets of Natural Armor they make it clear that for enhancement bonus purposes you are assumed to have a +0 natural armor if not listed as having more. So as written right now the first time you take this if you are a human or other Natural Armor +0 creature you gain +4 natural armor (+2 and +2 enhancement), I doubted this was intentional but wanted to point it out. If it is intentional you should probably up natural armor +1 to +2 as well.

Whoops, I forgot the word "instead". Fixed.


Build.

Is this the only build you can see anyone taking? If yes, what should I do to make other builds more interesting? And is it balanced as it is? Does the requirement of having to bum spells off a druid make the regen ability okay?

[Zaydos]

Whoops, I forgot the word "instead". Fixed.



Is this the only build you can see anyone taking? If yes, what should I do to make other builds more interesting? And is it balanced as it is? Does the requirement of having to bum spells off a druid make the regen ability okay?

Oh no not the only build I can see anyone taking; it's the one I'd take but I'd really have to look over the abilities more before deciding. Natural Armor is replaceable with a magic item until it's higher than +5 (bumming Barkskin off the druid is just a way of cutting down cost from 50,000 to 4000 since you rarely need it for more than a few hours a day). As for Energy Immunity that would be an effective strategy assuming there is a full caster in the party but regeneration is still worth it without that especially combined with Fast Healing and Energy Resistance. Again it is a way to save money on a Ring of Greater X Resistance as well as improve upon the ring.

Actually Fast Healing 5 would be worth taking multiple times, possibly changing Lv 4 to Natural Armor, and Lv 12 and 18 to more Fast Healing. That would mean 6 less DR but 10 more healing per turn (works on all damage) and 2 more AC and probably a better combination.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I've been thinking about the regen a lot since yesterday, and I was wondering what I should do to a)make it so it isn't a given that everyone takes it and b)give incentive to take it more than once. Maybe start it out so that when you first take it, you are vulnerable to all energy types, and each subsequent instance of the defense removes vulnerability to one energy type?

I'm thinking of increasing the fast healing value to 5. How much fast healing is needed to be relevant in combat? Would fast healing 20 be broken at level 19?

[Zaydos]

Well the current version lists Fast Healing as 5 so I thought it was already 5 each time you take it. Also why are the level minimums odd levels as you get the ability every even level?

On Regeneration it would be enough to make me take it twice (because that's the max) so I'm only vulnerable to lethal damage from fire and cold (acid is less common but if the DM wants to get you he can create/find enemies that use it; at least most of the fire and/or cold enemies have energy vulnerability) and drop my total fast healing to 10, but combined with regen I'd still be regaining 6 temp hp and 10 more real or temp hp which ought to be sufficient.

As for fast healing 20. I'm tempted to get fast healing two more times at the cost of 2 dodge bonus to AC but I'm not sure it is worth it.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I forgot that I changed the fast healing from 2 to 5. Do you think that PCs gaining fast healing 5 at level 6 will cause some DMs to freak out?

I've tweaked the regeneration ability. How does it look now? Is the wording clear?

The prerequisites have been fixed. I was in "Heightened Senses" mode and wrote the prereqs in that mindset.

The evolved powers concept has also been changed. It will now grant abilities such as invisibility and powerful build, while the new aspects feature will grant a progression of either claw, bite, or tail attacks.

[Milskidasith]

I do not know why anybody would ever get the low-light vision/darkvision abilities; I'd tack them on or give them automatically, because they are far worse than constant detect magic or detect undead, and there are far better things to get later on when you can start piercing magical darkness.

Also, enhanced physique is just... really, really bad, for completely obvious reasons. The other abilities aren't great, but offer something, but enhanced physique is... actually, it will *never* benefit a character taking it, since enhancement bonuses don't stack (meaning you could just buy items). Same with the deflection ability; deflection doesn't stack, so it's essentially worthless, while the dodge and NA do stack, so woo!

Of course, it would be neat if they could get some defensive options that are a bit more than fast healing (a good bit of fast healing, granted) or AC boosts, but I suppose stuff like invis, immediate action teleports, miss chances, etc. would probably fall under powers or movement.

[Zaydos]

Oops I missed the enhancement bonus on Enhanced Physique, that does make it worthless. This is what happens when I stay up till 7 AM the night before.

Regeneration is worse now, bad enough it's almost not an automatic must (combined with fast healing it is still a way to say "no" to melee).

With enhanced physique being worthless it would change the defensive powers I choose; starting energy resistance earlier and focusing more on DR.

Also note See Invisibility already allows you to see the Ethereal so why would you ever choose ethereal vision?

[ArcanistSupreme]

I do not know why anybody would ever get the low-light vision/darkvision abilities; I'd tack them on or give them automatically, because they are far worse than constant detect magic or detect undead, and there are far better things to get later on when you can start piercing magical darkness.

Duly noted. I was just going for a tree and wasn't really thinking. I'll think about it for a while and then fix it somehow.


Also, enhanced physique is just... really, really bad, for completely obvious reasons. The other abilities aren't great, but offer something, but enhanced physique is... actually, it will *never* benefit a character taking it, since enhancement bonuses don't stack (meaning you could just buy items). Same with the deflection ability; deflection doesn't stack, so it's essentially worthless, while the dodge and NA do stack, so woo!

I did make a note that multiple instances of the same ability stack, if that makes a difference. What would you recommend doing to make the other abilities worth taking?


Of course, it would be neat if they could get some defensive options that are a bit more than fast healing (a good bit of fast healing, granted) or AC boosts, but I suppose stuff like invis, immediate action teleports, miss chances, etc. would probably fall under powers or movement.

Yup, that stuff is all coming under powers.


Regeneration is worse now, bad enough it's almost not an automatic must (combined with fast healing it is still a way to say "no" to melee).

What would you suggest to put it on equal footing with everything else?


Also note See Invisibility already allows you to see the Ethereal so why would you ever choose ethereal vision?

You would if you were like me and didn't read see invisibility very closely. :smalltongue: Yeah, I'll fix that, and maybe tack the detect secret doors thing onto the see onto the plane of shadow ability.

NOTE: I've added some movement abilities. Obviously, flight speed is awesome, and I'm trying to think of ways to balance burrow, swim, and land speeds against that. Suggestions would be wonderful.

Aspects and Powers are under construction while I try to figure out a way to create a nice, neat progression without creating dead levels.

[Zaydos]

With Regeneration I was forgetting you can chop off their head and they can't regrow it so never mind, I'd still pick it and I'd say it's still one of the better abilities just for turning so many types of damage into subdual (which is easier to get rid of) but that still means melee can knock you out and coup de grace.

As for flight it is currently in a form that's the equivalent of 2 feats at Level 9 (Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings) or an LA +0 ability for Lv 1 characters (Raptorans). The third step is required to copy the level 5 version of raptorans and improved dragon wings' level 12 ability (tireless flight), but it also improves your maneuverability and speed. I'd actually say make the flight ability give you flight with no maximum duration limit (you're already 9th level and it is the equivalent of Overland Flight in power; and worse than a Lesser Invocation that warlocks can have as early as 6th level) and have the 14th level ability simply double the speed and increase maneuverability. Still a good enough ability to snatch up in a heartbeat but makes it less of a tax on the character (as is at Lv 14 you'll have Spider Climb, Flight, and Tireless Flight; this way at Lv 14 you'll have Spider Climb, Flight, and a debate between better aerial maneuverability and the ability to burrow or swim).

Edit: The enhancement bonus to physical ability scores is useless because you'll just buy magic items to do the same thing. Note that the abilities I picked out were either to bolster Regen or things that money can't/has difficulty buying.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Okay, I'm sold on the flight stuff, and I'll go fix that now. Does the fast movement tree look okay?

And what do you recommend I do with the ability score stuff to make it a more attractive option? Do I just give them an additional point in the abilities? Do I increase the bonus so it will be larger than pre-epic items? Do I make it an inherent bonus? I have the same questions about the armor bonuses as well.

[Zaydos]

+5 to Str and Dex translates to either +2 or +3 to: AC, Initiative, Reflex saves, attacks, damage (+50% if using a 2-handed weapon), and Str and Dex based skill checks.

+10 enhancement bonus equals out to +2 to all those things and 72,000 GP.

If you make them inherent then they don't stack with Wish spells.

I'd either make them +2 enhancement each time, or inherent.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm making them +2 for now. Any thoughts on making NA and deflection more appealing?

EDIT: deflection=/=displacement. Fixed.

[Zaydos]

Maybe make the natural armor one just add 1 to your natural armor each time and not be an enhancement bonus; just increase your pre-existing natural armor (+0 for most humanoids). Doesn't add to your touch AC like the dodge bonus but isn't replaced with a magic item/2nd level spell. That gives you a +10 total to AC over 20 levels if you take it and dodge every time. +12 if you also increase Dex.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Class finalized other than fluff. Final questions:

Does it appear balanced as it stands?
Are some paths obviously better than others?
What are suggestions for toning these choices down and/or increasing the incentive of the others?
Are there any broken mechanics (obvious or otherwise) introduced by this class?
Are there any ambiguously worded abilities?
Are there any grammar, spelling, or consistency issues (obviously not a big deal, but if you see them don't hesitate to point them out)?

[DragoonWraith]

The Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight abilities need level requirements so you aren't getting a permanent 7th level spell at 7th level.

The Heightened Senses abilities use character level instead of class level. That seems inconsistent and probably not a great idea. You might use something like Tome of Battle's rules for multiclassing (i.e. non-class levels count half), but it should be consistent for all of the abilities.

Does Enhanced Musculature replace Powerful Build or do you retain Powerful Build?

Enhanced Physique is ridiculous. You can get +10 to two different ability scores with very little in the way of opportunity cost (after all, you get 20 different Evolved Defenses, and you'd have to use only a quarter of them for that crazy +10. I think you should only get one Enhanced Defense on even levels, not two. And Enhanced Physique should just be gone.

Having a Burrow speed (Tunneler) at level 4 is sort-of terrifying. Burrow speeds are very good for circumventing entire encounters. Possibly add a requirement that they must remain adjacent to an open square with the Burrowing, a la Incorporeal creatures' ability to go through walls?

The Fangs aspect seems a bit underpowered. Poison and disease immunity's not that uncommon, for one thing, and for another that's a lot of delayed damage which may not really be that helpful.

The invisibility features seem out of place with the rest of the class. Where do those come from?


Overall, it seems pretty powerful, but not overly-so. A high Tier-3 would be my guess, which is not a bad place to be. It also looks like a pretty fun class. So kudos on that.

[ArcanistSupreme]

The Arcane Sight and Greater Arcane Sight abilities need level requirements so you aren't getting a permanent 7th level spell at 7th level.

Egads. Yeah, that got fixed. Do levels 10 and 16 (respectively) sound appropriate?


The Heightened Senses abilities use character level instead of class level. That seems inconsistent and probably not a great idea. You might use something like Tome of Battle's rules for multiclassing (i.e. non-class levels count half), but it should be consistent for all of the abilities.

What I was trying to do here was to make the class a bit more dip friendly. So if say, a warlock, wanted in, he could pick up some of the abilities that would actually be relevant at higher levels. I can't think of another way to do this that isn't an awkward monstrosity. Suggestions would be wonderful.


Does Enhanced Musculature replace Powerful Build or do you retain Powerful Build?

No. Should it? Should I add a note to make this more clear?


Enhanced Physique is ridiculous. You can get +10 to two different ability scores with very little in the way of opportunity cost (after all, you get 20 different Evolved Defenses, and you'd have to use only a quarter of them for that crazy +10. I think you should only get one Enhanced Defense on even levels, not two. And Enhanced Physique should just be gone.

Keep in mind that it's an enhancement bonus. That means no stat boosting items, so you only end up with +4 on somebody who just went with the stock items. Is this still ridiculous?


Having a Burrow speed (Tunneler) at level 4 is sort-of terrifying. Burrow speeds are very good for circumventing entire encounters. Possibly add a requirement that they must remain adjacent to an open square with the Burrowing, a la Incorporeal creatures' ability to go through walls?

Wow, I can't believe I never thought of that. Should I add this restriction and then perhaps a third option that removes it?


The Fangs aspect seems a bit underpowered. Poison and disease immunity's not that uncommon, for one thing, and for another that's a lot of delayed damage which may not really be that helpful.

The aspect part was the most difficult to come up with, and it kind of shows that I struggled to make stuff up that fits the themes. What would you recommend to keep it a unique tree but still relevant?


The invisibility features seem out of place with the rest of the class. Where do those come from?

That is a combination of me wanting this class to be capable of filling a skill-monkey/stealth role and a holdover from the original concept where the evolved would pick trees of SLAs from a menu similar to the mobility, senses, and defenses. It might work after the fluff is added, but looking over it now, they really don't seem to synergize with the other abilities much. Can you think of another spell/ability that might fit better? Perhaps hide in plain sight or evasion and improved evasion?


Overall, it seems pretty powerful, but not overly-so. A high Tier-3 would be my guess, which is not a bad place to be. It also looks like a pretty fun class. So kudos on that.

I was aiming for mid Tier-3, so I guess I came pretty close to my goal. Thanks!

[Debihuman]

I think you've heard this already but this class is definitely overpowered in comparison to other base classes.

Evolved Defenses is too power all-around. Gaining DR 2/- at level 4 is an unfair advantage. If this were a prestige class, it wouldn't be so bad but this is beyond 2/epic. Why not start at DR 2/magic?

Debby

[ArcanistSupreme]

I think you've heard this already but this class is definitely overpowered in comparison to other base classes.

Evolved Defenses is too power all-around. Gaining DR 2/- at level 4 is an unfair advantage. If this were a prestige class, it wouldn't be so bad but this is beyond 2/epic. Why not start at DR 2/magic?

Debby

I'm not sure it's really that much. Sure, the Barbarian only gets up to 5/- by level 20, but that's not really a significant amount of damage reduction. At this point, attacks had better be doing well over 50 damage, and staving off 5 damage won't make much of a difference. By level 20, if the Evolved takes this every time, he ends up with DR 10/-, which is double what the Barbarian gets, but this way the ability is actually relevant at higher levels of play. No amount of DR/magic is worth having when nearly all monsters/NPCs automatically overcome it.

This class also gets fast healing 5 by level 6, which is completely unheard of, but again not actually that powerful. By level 18, it can hit fast healing 20, which is impossible (as far as I know) for PCs to obtain otherwise, but this is again an attempt to keep the ability relevant at later levels.

If you can think of a way to make a progression of DR that becomes more powerful but stays consistent with the other defensive abilities, that would probably help to make this ability easier to swallow. Perhaps something like the regeneration ability where it starts out DR 2/x OR x OR x OR x with each application of the ability removing a weakness?

[Jallorn]

I feel I should point out that the Enhanced Physique defense is better than, at least, the Dodge bonus one. This is because you can effectively gain a dodge bonus and another advantage by improving Dex and another stat.

As for the DR, you could do 1+X where X is the number of times that ability has been previously taken.

So the progression would be 1,3,6,10,15

And start it off as DR/y or y and include another advantage that removes one way of bypassing the DR. I would advise Magic and some metal, like silver or cold iron. I believe this means that the most DR/- one could have would be 6.

[Morph Bark]

As was requested, here I am! Will try to mainly cover points that others haven't focused on, but I agree with their sentiments.

I like Aspect of the Evolved, but it doesn't really do what you said it does: "improves and develops as he grows in strength". Did you just mean it gets better with a higher Strength score? Because if so it is a little bit misleading, so the wording could be worked out better. Saw the other abilities, thought they would just have been under the initial Aspect of the Evolved. My bad.

Under Heightened Senses, I'd switch Tremorsense up with the others. Tremorsense is better than Blindsense since you can pinpoint creatures' locations with it as long as they are in contact with the ground. On the other hand, sure, you might run into a lot of flying opponents, but most creatures still are land-based and often can have something to attack from range (though this does not go for all creatures, obviously). Oh, or otherwise make Tremorsense a seperate ability that requires the Tunneler Evolved Mobility and make Blindsense just have a level requirement.

Is steadfast perception in the SRD/XPH? I'm not sure what it does as I've never come across it.

For Powerful Build, I'd have them choose between that and Slight Build (which can make one count as smaller rather than larger), just because not every mutant Evolved is going to be a hulking strongman. Of course, it might still not be the better option and Powerful Build might be more attractive, but it gives a little extra chance in bodily customization, which is the point of the class, no?

Evolved Defenses has without a doubt the strongest stuff in there. I'd limit the amount of times some of the things can be chosen. Damage Reduction no more than 5 times for instance, or lower it to DR 1/- or as others suggested make it DR 2/something.

Fast Healing 5 is just too much at level 6, it's even better than an Epic Feat. Fast Healing 2 perhaps? And no taking it more than 4 times (so it caps at FH 8, which is the highest I've seen of monsters that aren't Hydras)?

I'm a little unclear on Cellular Regeneration... is the energy type chosen the only one that inflicts lethal damage or the only one that inflicts nonlethal damage?

I'd have Enhanced Physique work for only one ability score. Even an enhancement bonus of +20 at level 20 is something to be envious of, and they can always just buy items that work for other ability scores they need instead.

The SLAs under Evolved Mobility might work more nicely and balanced if their uses scaled by class level. Dimension step 1/4 class levels, Teleport 1/6 class levels, Plane shift 1/10 levels?

The "latch" special ability under Improved Aspect sounds like Improved Grab. Was it intentional that it doesn't work quite exactly like Improved Grab (since it requires no grapple checks to remain latched on)?

Enhanced Musculature... see my comment on Powerful build. Letting it also allow becoming smaller = customizability. Also, does it stack with Powerful build? As in, if I was Medium before and now become Large... can I count as Huge due to Powerful build and wield Huge weapons?

Strike Unseen seems more like it should be part of one of those ability trees... I don't see a reason why ALL Evolved should get it. Exist Unseen as well. In fact, there is no point in the class where it gains just invisibility as an SLA, so it looks even more crazy as to why it gets the greater version all of a sudden.

Bigger and Better... see Powerful build and Enhanced Musculature comments. Minute size, perhaps?

As part of Pinnacle of Evolution, the bite attack: what if the Evolved is Good? Does it still deal vile damage, which is considered evil? Furthermore, it would likely fight against Evil creatures, which most likely won't be going inside a consecrated or hallowed area anytime soon... perhaps change your wording that it works like vile damage regardless of alignment, and that it can also be healed in a desecrated or unhallowed area?

[ArcanistSupreme]

Jallorn:

I feel I should point out that the Enhanced Physique defense is better than, at least, the Dodge bonus one. This is because you can effectively gain a dodge bonus and another advantage by improving Dex and another stat.

As for the DR, you could do 1+X where X is the number of times that ability has been previously taken.

So the progression would be 1,3,6,10,15

I like this. The only issue is that in the end you get DR 15/-, which might cause some "OMG TAHT IS TEH BORKEN!!!1!!1 reactions.


And start it off as DR/y or y and include another advantage that removes one way of bypassing the DR. I would advise Magic and some metal, like silver or cold iron. I believe this means that the most DR/- one could have would be 6.

I'm not quite sure how this works. Could you explain/clarify?

M-Bark:

As was requested, here I am! Will try to mainly cover points that others haven't focused on, but I agree with their sentiments.

Thanks for coming back! There are quite a few sentiments expressed; would you mind just quick mentioning which ones so I can kind of keep a tally?


Under Heightened Senses, I'd switch Tremorsense up with the others. Tremorsense is better than Blindsense since you can pinpoint creatures' locations with it as long as they are in contact with the ground. On the other hand, sure, you might run into a lot of flying opponents, but most creatures still are land-based and often can have something to attack from range (though this does not go for all creatures, obviously). Oh, or otherwise make Tremorsense a seperate ability that requires the Tunneler Evolved Mobility and make Blindsense just have a level requirement.

Even with some form of flight being a necessity at higher levels? I haven't done much higher level play, so I don't really know on this one. What about switching tremorsense to the middle of the tree?


Is steadfast perception in the SRD/XPH? I'm not sure what it does as I've never come across it. Yuppers. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/steadfastPerception.htm)


For Powerful Build, I'd have them choose between that and Slight Build (which can make one count as smaller rather than larger), just because not every mutant Evolved is going to be a hulking strongman. Of course, it might still not be the better option and Powerful Build might be more attractive, but it gives a little extra chance in bodily customization, which is the point of the class, no?

Enhanced Musculature... see my comment on Powerful build. Letting it also allow becoming smaller = customizability. Also, does it stack with Powerful build? As in, if I was Medium before and now become Large... can I count as Huge due to Powerful build and wield Huge weapons?

Bigger and Better... see Powerful build and Enhanced Musculature comments. Minute size, perhaps?

I thought about this, but being smaller is just suboptimal for every use of this class. The evolved wants to have tons of reach, ridiculous grapple modifiers, and do more damage with his natural attacks. If the choice was there, I'd just feel like it was a trap. With the last part, what would I even call the ability? "Smaller and worse"? That way they would have the choice, but at least they'd be warned. :smalltongue:


Evolved Defenses has without a doubt the strongest stuff in there. I'd limit the amount of times some of the things can be chosen. Damage Reduction no more than 5 times for instance, or lower it to DR 1/- or as others suggested make it DR 2/something.

Fast Healing 5 is just too much at level 6, it's even better than an Epic Feat. Fast Healing 2 perhaps? And no taking it more than 4 times (so it caps at FH 8, which is the highest I've seen of monsters that aren't Hydras)?

There already is a limitation, albeit an awkwardly worded one. You can only take each ability once every four levels. As for the claims that this is super overpowered, see my above comments. Is it unbalanced because nothing else has it, or because in actual game play it would be ridiculously broken? My goal was to keep these abilities relevant, and I'm not sure that limiting it back down to normal levels would do this.


I'm a little unclear on Cellular Regeneration... is the energy type chosen the only one that inflicts lethal damage or the only one that inflicts nonlethal damage?

Lethal. It's just standard regeneration with more vulnerabilities.


I'd have Enhanced Physique work for only one ability score. Even an enhancement bonus of +20 at level 20 is something to be envious of, and they can always just buy items that work for other ability scores they need instead.

Again, see the limitations. The most you can take it is 5 times, for a total of +10. Earlier in the development people thought that only giving this to one ability score was underwhelming.


The SLAs under Evolved Mobility might work more nicely and balanced if their uses scaled by class level. Dimension step 1/4 class levels, Teleport 1/6 class levels, Plane shift 1/10 levels?

How much of a difference does it make? The reason I just made it a flat number was that I wanted to keep the wording simple and having plane shift 1/day is lame.


The "latch" special ability under Improved Aspect sounds like Improved Grab. Was it intentional that it doesn't work quite exactly like Improved Grab (since it requires no grapple checks to remain latched on)?

That was intentional. See the Dire Weasel. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWeasel.htm)


Strike Unseen seems more like it should be part of one of those ability trees... I don't see a reason why ALL Evolved should get it. Exist Unseen as well. In fact, there is no point in the class where it gains just invisibility as an SLA, so it looks even more crazy as to why it gets the greater version all of a sudden.

Yeah, as I explained above this was a holdover from the earlier concept. I think I'll swap it out for evasion/improved evasion and hide in plain sight. Thoughts?


As part of Pinnacle of Evolution, the bite attack: what if the Evolved is Good? Does it still deal vile damage, which is considered evil? Furthermore, it would likely fight against Evil creatures, which most likely won't be going inside a consecrated or hallowed area anytime soon... perhaps change your wording that it works like vile damage regardless of alignment, and that it can also be healed in a desecrated or unhallowed area?

I agree that I should just say "like vile damage" and explain it. As for the consecrated/desecrated thing, I guess I'll add a line about those healed by negative energy need the evil versions. Otherwise they'll just have to kidnap a good/neutral cleric.

[Tael]

I really like the class so far, but my only concern is the automatic SLAs. I think you should give at least one other option istead of Invisibility for instance, as people may not want to go invisible with thier hulking massive brute, and probably another option instead of Giant Size. It just doesn't seem to make any sense flavor-wise, and more options is always good (also love how you gave many options for the sense and defense abilities).

[ArcanistSupreme]

I really like the class so far, but my only concern is the automatic SLAs. I think you should give at least one other option istead of Invisibility for instance, as people may not want to go invisible with thier hulking massive brute, and probably another option instead of Giant Size. It just doesn't seem to make any sense flavor-wise, and more options is always good (also love how you gave many options for the sense and defense abilities).

Yeah, several other people have had issues with the invisibility as well. I think the giant size will stay (it fits the whole "HULK SMASH!" theme pretty well), but options for the other SLAs would be good. Do you have any ideas? My preference is for self-only buffs so the Evolved doesn't have to worry about MAD so much.

[flabort]

This reminds me a lot of Draken's Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112349) base class, just very simplified. :smallannoyed:

It even has exactly similarly named abilities. His just offers a hundred times more freedom. :smallcool:

Tell me, Is this inspired by, ripping off, or completely unrelated to the Evolutionist?:smallconfused: Really. I'm serious.

I really can't help but see the parallels.

[ArcanistSupreme]

This reminds me a lot of Draken's Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112349) base class, just very simplified. :smallannoyed:

It even has exactly similarly named abilities. His just offers a hundred times more freedom. :smallcool:

Tell me, Is this inspired by, ripping off, or completely unrelated to the Evolutionist?:smallconfused: Really. I'm serious.

I really can't help but see the parallels.

I had never seen that class before I came up with this. I'll admit, the concepts are pretty dang close.Seeing it after I've put so much time into this is incredibly discouraging. Do you have any ideas for tweaking this class so it isn't so close to that one?

EDIT: Upon reviewing, I guess the biggest difference is that mine allows for slightly bigger numbers and some different options in exchange for far less customizability. The similarity between the Evolutionist and my original concept for this class (everything comes from a menu) is ridiculous. Are there any ideas for a different name or a more focused concept (Evolved was just a working title anyway)?

EDIT 2: My class also has Tumble and Use Rope. :smalltongue: More seriously, mine is also less front-loaded, and encourages players to take it all the way through rather than getting out after nabbing a bunch of goodies. Most of the Evolved abilities don't scale very well unless you take more iterations of the same ability. Hopefully it's also a little harder to break.

As to the lack of comparative customizability (that isn't a word, is it?), I think I actually prefer it. It allows players and DMs to get a better picture of the class's capabilities at a glance, and it's a little easier to see how different features can interact. It also allows newer/lazier players to get the class to work without getting in over their heads. My goal with this class is to produce a class with similar straight out of the box playability to the Beguiler and ToB classes. Ideally, it should be Tier-3 regardless of player choices.

As I mentioned, my earlier design was pretty much going to be identical to the evolutionist (but way worse). Now that I've seen the alternative in action, I'm glad I changed my mind.

[Jallorn]

Jallorn:


I like this. The only issue is that in the end you get DR 15/-, which might cause some "OMG TAHT IS TEH BORKEN!!!1!!1 reactions.



I'm not quite sure how this works. Could you explain/clarify?

Well, when chosen, the DR option first gives you DR 1/Magic or (some metal). Then, with subsequent options, you can either remove the metal and/or magic, or increase the DR. So the second time you get it, you could have DR 1/Magic, DR 1/(some metal), or DR 3/Magic or (some metal).

Also, you don't have a first level wealth quantity.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Well, when chosen, the DR option first gives you DR 1/Magic or (some metal). Then, with subsequent options, you can either remove the metal and/or magic, or increase the DR. So the second time you get it, you could have DR 1/Magic, DR 1/(some metal), or DR 3/Magic or (some metal).

Then the issue again becomes that by level 18 you have a largely irrelevant DR. I think I'll just make it more like the cellular regeneration ability, and then use your progression.


Also, you don't have a first level wealth quantity.

Wow, I didn't even think of that. I'm so used to classes not including this in their entry or being ridiculously difficult to find (even/especially in WotC material. Does the SRD even having starting gold?!). Fixed.

[sonofzeal]

You asked me for optimization advice, so here goes....


- You need to specify that Powerful Build doesn't stack with the racial ability of the same name. It should go without saying, but somebody somewhere is going to try it and it only takes you a sentence to prevent.

- Evolved Defences are really frigging powerful if you stack them repeatedly. Pretty much all of them can be abused that way, even with your restrictions. I'd encourage you to have "lesser" and "greater" versions that become available at different points, to control pacing. Some of these need to be boosted to stay competitive (Supernatural Resistance specifically), but many of these are just as good at all levels and that can be a problem. It can be problematic to have +15 AC, or SR 35, or +10 to two ability scores, or Fast Healing 20. Energy Resistance is the only one I have no issue with, as nigh-immunity to a single element is mostly just cool rather than massively powerful.

- Enhanced Physique is quite attractive to many dippers, given how much ability scores tend to define a character over his whole career. I'd put a minimum level on that, but that's just me.

- Fast Healing should only bring you up to half health max, and even then 5 is a really really big number as far as these things go at many levels.

- Enhanced Musculature comes way too early, shouldn't be paired with Improved Aspect, and should replace Powerful Build... making it a liability in some ways, but otherwise things could get a bit silly.

- Speaking of things getting a bit silly, as it stands the Evolved gets a total of 6 effective size increases on his natural attacks, and can easily have more from commonly-accessible sources like the "Improved Natural Attack" feat or "Giant Size" or whatnot. On a high level Evolved, you could be looking at 12d8 base weapon damage. Fortunately, since it's not based on Unarmed Strike it's much harder to boost than it is for Monks, and Evolved generally don't get the massive number of strikes to really capitalize on it. This isn't really a major balance thing that needs fixing, more just something to be aware of.

- Three obscure diseases in one bite is a lot of rolling and consulting of books, but unlikely to be a major balance issue. I do like that it's disease and not poison though, nice way to mix it up.

- For the Tail Slap, your treatment of it in the text seems to assume Facing rules, which aren't default in D&D. You may want to rewrite them with this in mind.

- The Invisibility stuff is insanely juicy as well. At 8th level and beyond, you're going to be under Greater Invisibility for the entire fight, for most fights you're in. That's kind of ridiculous, and it only gets worse with Exist Unseen. I'd make it a Swift action to use the Greater version but only lasting one turn, just like the Ninja's Ki, and possibly upgrading to Superior at 14th but no at-will or long-duration invisibility. Or, downgrade to some sort of Blur effect for concealment rather than actual invisibility.

[Jane_Smith]

I think the size-increase/powerful build oughta be another specialization, not something 'everyone' of the class gets from levels.

In addition, what about the evolved that do not wish to have claws/tails/or bite attacks? Any chance for tentacles? Or ike a psionic mind blast effect? Or maybe poison spits, etc.

[ArcanistSupreme]

@sonofzeal

- You need to specify that Powerful Build doesn't stack with the racial ability of the same name. It should go without saying, but somebody somewhere is going to try it and it only takes you a sentence to prevent.

Fair point.


- Evolved Defences are really frigging powerful if you stack them repeatedly. Pretty much all of them can be abused that way, even with your restrictions. I'd encourage you to have "lesser" and "greater" versions that become available at different points, to control pacing. Some of these need to be boosted to stay competitive (Supernatural Resistance specifically), but many of these are just as good at all levels and that can be a problem. It can be problematic to have +15 AC, or SR 35, or +10 to two ability scores, or Fast Healing 20. Energy Resistance is the only one I have no issue with, as nigh-immunity to a single element is mostly just cool rather than massively powerful.

I'll probably go with the lesser/greater versions, as most of the issues people have seem too be with low levels of play. Are any of these things that big of a deal at level 18? I was under the impression that AC was largely irrelevant at these levels.


- Enhanced Physique is quite attractive to many dippers, given how much ability scores tend to define a character over his whole career. I'd put a minimum level on that, but that's just me.

It is given in the form of an enhancement bonus, which stacks with approximately nothing. Does that make a difference?


- Fast Healing should only bring you up to half health max, and even then 5 is a really really big number as far as these things go at many levels.

Chalk it up to lack of high-level experience, but I thought that fast healing was simply viewed as a way to top off hit points after fights, similar to wands of vigor and cure light wounds. The large numbers are my attempt to make it relevant in combat as well as out, and I seem to have gone too far. Should I really limit it to a maximum of 5? And at what level should it be allowed to go to maximum? Would an acceptable low-level restriction require specific conditions similar to mephit's fast healing?

On a related note, how balanced is the cellular regeneration ability as written?


- Enhanced Musculature comes way too early, shouldn't be paired with Improved Aspect, and should replace Powerful Build... making it a liability in some ways, but otherwise things could get a bit silly.

Okay, what level should it occur at? And by "shouldn't be paired with" do you mean at the same level or in the same class?


- Speaking of things getting a bit silly, as it stands the Evolved gets a total of 6 effective size increases on his natural attacks, and can easily have more from commonly-accessible sources like the "Improved Natural Attack" feat or "Giant Size" or whatnot. On a high level Evolved, you could be looking at 12d8 base weapon damage. Fortunately, since it's not based on Unarmed Strike it's much harder to boost than it is for Monks, and Evolved generally don't get the massive number of strikes to really capitalize on it. This isn't really a major balance thing that needs fixing, more just something to be aware of.

I was aware of it, and kind of wondered what others thought. Should it be toned down? Is there a more elegant way to do it?


- Three obscure diseases in one bite is a lot of rolling and consulting of books, but unlikely to be a major balance issue. I do like that it's disease and not poison though, nice way to mix it up.

All three diseases are found on the same table in the DMG, and I didn't think that rolling 3d20 at the same time was that big of a deal. If it's still clunky though, how would you recommend fixing it?


- For the Tail Slap, your treatment of it in the text seems to assume Facing rules, which aren't default in D&D. You may want to rewrite them with this in mind.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Could you point it out/elaborate?


- The Invisibility stuff is insanely juicy as well. At 8th level and beyond, you're going to be under Greater Invisibility for the entire fight, for most fights you're in. That's kind of ridiculous, and it only gets worse with Exist Unseen. I'd make it a Swift action to use the Greater version but only lasting one turn, just like the Ninja's Ki, and possibly upgrading to Superior at 14th but no at-will or long-duration invisibility. Or, downgrade to some sort of Blur effect for concealment rather than actual invisibility.

As you are the umpteenth person to be dissatisfied with those abilities, they are officially coming out. Do you think that evasion/improved evasion and hide in plain sight would be acceptable? If yes, at what levels? If no, what would you suggest to give this class a couple more class features (possibly simply flavorful ones) that are built in and not selected?

I think the size-increase/powerful build oughta be another specialization, not something 'everyone' of the class gets from levels.

The thing is, all melee classes benefit from getting bigger. Grapple, trip, reach, and bull rush modifiers all increase with size, and that's what this class is all about (well, that and being ridiculously hard to kill).


In addition, what about the evolved that do not wish to have claws/tails/or bite attacks? Any chance for tentacles? Or ike a psionic mind blast effect? Or maybe poison spits, etc.

I think you want to look at the Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112349) class that got mentioned above. It has everything that you are looking for. My goal for this class is to create a massive, incredibly resilient beast that can hunt down it's prey and rip it apart in basically any environment (once fluff comes this will be phrased a bit more elegantly and will be much more distinguishable from the Evolutionist, but that's the basic premise).

If you are still interested in this version, however, feel free to come up with cool and distinct trees that fit into the aspects. Right now I'm kind of out of ideas for these, and suggestions are more than welcome. The poison spit tree might be difficult to break down and keep relevant when so many things are immune to poison, but an octopus Evolved would be freaking sweet. My preference would be to stay away from spells/powers unless they are passive buffs.

[sonofzeal]

I'll probably go with the lesser/greater versions, as most of the issues people have seem too be with low levels of play. Are any of these things that big of a deal at level 18? I was under the impression that AC was largely irrelevant at these levels.
Common CharOp wisdom here is flawed because it's focused purely on the Monster Manuals. Yes, monstrous attack bonus scales faster than AC generally does, but even a Pit Fiend only has +30, so the size of bonus here is still significant. More importantly, humanoid opponents tend not to have the same spiraling attack bonuses. If your campaign is fighting a lot of high level humans, elves, or orcs, then AC becomes much more significant and a +15 becomes quite effective against melee based humanoids. High level has more ways around AC, but for most of the game a significant boost to AC can render you nigh-invulnerable in a lot of fights.

The last campaign I was in went from lvl 10 to lvl 15, and AC played a huge role in survival rates. Once I hit 35-40, I was pretty golden in most fights.



It is given in the form of an enhancement bonus, which stacks with approximately nothing. Does that make a difference?
Ah, sorry, missed that. Carry on. :smallcool:



Chalk it up to lack of high-level experience, but I thought that fast healing was simply viewed as a way to top off hit points after fights, similar to wands of vigor and cure light wounds. The large numbers are my attempt to make it relevant in combat as well as out, and I seem to have gone too far. Should I really limit it to a maximum of 5? And at what level should it be allowed to go to maximum? Would an acceptable low-level restriction require specific conditions similar to mephit's fast healing?

On a related note, how balanced is the cellular regeneration ability as written?
Again, I believe CharOp wisdom is flawed here. There are some sources of free infinite healing out there, but not many, and most either stop at half max hp (draconic aura, Touch of Healing) or would be considered cheesy in many groups (DMM Persist Mass Lesser Vigor), or takes a significant time/action investment (most of the above, plus TTS DN and Buer Binder). So yes there's free healing out there, but hardly anything on the scale you're proposing, either for magnitude or for ease.

Think of it this way. If there was a feat that granted Fast Healing 5, how many people would take it? How would it compare with other feats that help keep you alive?

Or think of it this way. As it stands, the Evolved gets so many hp back so rapidly that they'll be almost impossible to kill outside of massive single outpourings of damage, and that's never fun for anyone if the class inevitably goes from "totally fine" to "totally dead" with no middle ground in between. There's no rising panic, no struggling valiantly against dire odds, no dramatic tension. Either he's getting pounded into oblivion, or he's going to be fine in a couple seconds. The player will feel invulnerable, or the player will feel screwed. I exaggerate of course, there's still a middle ground, but it's nigh impossible to hit reliably and it's in a place that's going to destroy other beatsticks.

So I'd lower it to 2, or cap it at Half Max, or both.

Cellular Regeneration is so high level that I wouldn't worry about it. It's awesome, but characters should be getting cool stuff like that by that point. I'd consider adding a note that the character can still be CDG'd, though, just to maintain the sense of risk.


Okay, what level should it occur at? And by "shouldn't be paired with" do you mean at the same level or in the same class?
The former. Size increases are usually A Big Deal (less so if they're merely replacing Powerful Build), and so is Improved Aspect, and it's my general rule of thumb to space out Big Deal abilities as much as possible.


I was aware of it, and kind of wondered what others thought. Should it be toned down? Is there a more elegant way to do it?
Mmm... elegant? Not really. I'd put in an official table though (since official tables don't go up that high), and consider capping the table at some point. Maybe statement to the effect of "no matter what the effective size category of the Evolved is, their natural weapon damage can't exceed XdX", where XdX is a pretty darn high amount by most standards, and enough to make Giant Size worthwhile.

Oh, and... Giant Size interacts oddly with actual size increases, because it specifies exactly what size you go to rather than being based on the size you start as. This becomes especially significant if the Evolved is a Large race (a natural choice for this class), and is hence already Huge by the time they get it. On the other hand, changing it to be based on your original size allows for totally breaking the size categories chart, so be careful with that too. I'd rather keep it the way it is, personally, even if it's a bit awkward.




All three diseases are found on the same table in the DMG, and I didn't think that rolling 3d20 at the same time was that big of a deal. If it's still clunky though, how would you recommend fixing it?
I know that when I play, I don't always have a DMG right there in front of me, especially if I'm a player. I'd include the disease writeups at the very least, and possibly replace them with a single bigger (and possibly homebrew) disease.




I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Could you point it out/elaborate?
You give the rules for combining Bite with Weapons, but not Tail Slap. That's the big one.



As you are the umpteenth person to be dissatisfied with those abilities, they are officially coming out. Do you think that evasion/improved evasion and hide in plain sight would be acceptable? If yes, at what levels? If no, what would you suggest to give this class a couple more class features (possibly simply flavorful ones) that are built in and not selected?
Those sound good. Again, the most I'd go for otherwise would be a Blur effect.

As for levels... just to space things out, I'd do 3 - 8 - 14... but I do wonder how useful HiPS is going to be for a Godzilla-like monstrosity.




As a final note, this seems to be a melee brute class, but the trimmings (4+int skillpoints, 2 good saves, 3/4 BAB) remind me more of a utility character. I'd at least consider doing 2+int, 1 good, full BAB. It's not a big balance issue either way, but more what impression you want to give to casual observers.

[ArcanistSupreme]

*Stuff about AC*

Huh. That's good to know/think about. I'm thinking about splitting the defenses into three tables (least, improved, and greater or somesuch), with improved becoming available at 8th and greater at 16th. Keeping in mind that deflection modifiers are also difficult to stack, how would you deal with the AC modifiers?


Ah, sorry, missed that. Carry on. :smallcool:

A surprising number of people do. Should I make a bigger note for that ability?


*Stuff about fast healing*

So I'd lower it to 2, or cap it at Half Max, or both.

Again, good to know. I think I'll do both, but have a greater defense ability that allows it to go to full. And just to make sure; having fast healing 10 at level 18 is okay?


Cellular Regeneration is so high level that I wouldn't worry about it. It's awesome, but characters should be getting cool stuff like that by that point. I'd consider adding a note that the character can still be CDG'd, though, just to maintain the sense of risk.

Good idea. I think I'll do it in the form of a reminder that heads don't regrow if separated from the body, and that separated extremities wither and die after a minute.


The former. Size increases are usually A Big Deal (less so if they're merely replacing Powerful Build), and so is Improved Aspect, and it's my general rule of thumb to space out Big Deal abilities as much as possible.

Got it.


Mmm... elegant? Not really. I'd put in an official table though (since official tables don't go up that high), and consider capping the table at some point. Maybe statement to the effect of "no matter what the effective size category of the Evolved is, their natural weapon damage can't exceed XdX", where XdX is a pretty darn high amount by most standards, and enough to make Giant Size worthwhile.

Oh, and... Giant Size interacts oddly with actual size increases, because it specifies exactly what size you go to rather than being based on the size you start as. This becomes especially significant if the Evolved is a Large race (a natural choice for this class), and is hence already Huge by the time they get it. On the other hand, changing it to be based on your original size allows for totally breaking the size categories chart, so be careful with that too. I'd rather keep it the way it is, personally, even if it's a bit awkward.

I'll add a column in the main table. And yeah, I know a Large or bigger Evolved would be awkward, but players typically have to eat a lot of not-worth-it LA to achieve this, so I'm going to leave it alone and pretend like it's okay.


I know that when I play, I don't always have a DMG right there in front of me, especially if I'm a player. I'd include the disease writeups at the very least, and possibly replace them with a single bigger (and possibly homebrew) disease.

Ah. Well, part of the fun for me is that when you do it, you don't know which diseases are going to go into effect. It also increases the odds of creatures with ridiculous saving throws rolling ones and getting sick anyway. Even at lower levels, the DCs are pretty laughable. I guess I could just mash the diseases together, make the DC scale with level, and have players roll for effects, but again you end up with lots of rolling. Suggestions?


You give the rules for combining Bite with Weapons, but not Tail Slap. That's the big one.

Oh. There wasn't a race that I could find with a tail slap to copy the text from, so I just plain forgot about it. Should I just treat it like a claw?


Those sound good. Again, the most I'd go for otherwise would be a Blur effect.

As for levels... just to space things out, I'd do 3 - 8 - 14... but I do wonder how useful HiPS is going to be for a Godzilla-like monstrosity.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be freaking scary even if it only sort-of worked? Imagine if you are walking through the woods, and you lay against a tree trunk to go to sleep. Then you realize it isn't a tree...:smallbiggrin: If nothing else, it'll be useful outside of combat while the Evolved is only Large. I don't necessarily think it's bad that it's not super powerful.


As a final note, this seems to be a melee brute class, but the trimmings (4+int skillpoints, 2 good saves, 3/4 BAB) remind me more of a utility character. I'd at least consider doing 2+int, 1 good, full BAB. It's not a big balance issue either way, but more what impression you want to give to casual observers.

This is another holdover from my previous design concept. However, I think it mostly works. With his huge selection of skills, many of which aren't super useful, and Int being a dump stat, I feel like he needs more just so everybody doesn't just max spot and listen and call it a day. We want crazy hiding godzillas, remember?

The saves are just following the ranger example because I feel he's an outdoorsy type that would want both of those for wilderness survival. Cutting Reflex doesn't make sense if I want evasion, and cutting fortitude doesn't fit with the durability that it's abilities suggest. I think it fits, but if it's too big a deal, I guess I could cut reflex and find some other abilities.

If I increase BAB, I'm worried about natural attacks, especially the claws, getting out of hand. Am I right in thinking this, or does it make a difference?

[sonofzeal]

Huh. That's good to know/think about. I'm thinking about splitting the defenses into three tables (least, improved, and greater or somesuch), with improved becoming available at 8th and greater at 16th. Keeping in mind that deflection modifiers are also difficult to stack, how would you deal with the AC modifiers?
What I'd do is take out Deflection (that's almost invariably magical in nature), make the Natural Armor easy to get, but make the Dodge sparser. It's only when you're getting a whole bunch of sources of AC that it becomes weird. A top level Evolved getting +5 NA (Dragonfire Adepts get the same) and +3 Dodge is reasonable. I might even make it easier to pick up within those sorts of limits...

lvl 2 - Armored Skin: +2 NA

lvl 6 - Sixth Sense: +1 Dodge

lvl 8 - Improved Armored Skin: +2 NA, stacks (so +4 total)

lvl 12 - Improved Sixth Sense: +1 Dodge, stacks (so +2 total)

lvl 16 - Superior Armored Skin: +2 NA, stacks (so +6 total)

lvl 18 - Superior Sixth Sense: +1 Dodge, stacks (so +3 total)


....but that's the most I'd ever really offer in terms of AC.


A surprising number of people do. Should I make a bigger note for that ability?
No, that one was purely my own fault for reading through quickly, and something that I'd inevitably notice once I read it more carefully. I think you're good.



Again, good to know. I think I'll do both, but have a greater defense ability that allows it to go to full. And just to make sure; having fast healing 10 at level 18 is okay?
Oh yeah, 10 hp a round at that level isn't going to break the game. It's more in the lower-mid levels that it's a problem. Even Fast Healing 2 is pretty darn sweet in the lvl 1-8 range, as is Fast Healing 4 in the 9-15 range. Endgame though, you can pretty much throw whatever around and it's unlikely to trump the power spellcasters have.




Good idea. I think I'll do it in the form of a reminder that heads don't regrow if separated from the body, and that separated extremities wither and die after a minute.
Good idea. Spelling out specifically that decapitation=death is probably good too.




I'll add a column in the main table. And yeah, I know a Large or bigger Evolved would be awkward, but players typically have to eat a lot of not-worth-it LA to achieve this, so I'm going to leave it alone and pretend like it's okay.
That's true. Up to you how to handle that.



Ah. Well, part of the fun for me is that when you do it, you don't know which diseases are going to go into effect. It also increases the odds of creatures with ridiculous saving throws rolling ones and getting sick anyway. Even at lower levels, the DCs are pretty laughable. I guess I could just mash the diseases together, make the DC scale with level, and have players roll for effects, but again you end up with lots of rolling. Suggestions?
A single scaling disease is probably the best way. DC = Con + HD/2 or somesuch. Effect could also be based on level.



Oh. There wasn't a race that I could find with a tail slap to copy the text from, so I just plain forgot about it. Should I just treat it like a claw?
Yeah, all of them should work the same way, except that you can't use a claw if you're holding a weapon in that hand, that's the only difference.




Yeah, but wouldn't it be freaking scary even if it only sort-of worked? Imagine if you are walking through the woods, and you lay against a tree trunk to go to sleep. Then you realize it isn't a tree...:smallbiggrin: If nothing else, it'll be useful outside of combat while the Evolved is only Large. I don't necessarily think it's bad that it's not super powerful.
Oh, totally. Not all abilities need to be awesome, it's nice to throw a few random sprinkles in too like the Ranger's Endurance or the Barbarian's Trap Sense.



This is another holdover from my previous design concept. However, I think it mostly works. With his huge selection of skills, many of which aren't super useful, and Int being a dump stat, I feel like he needs more just so everybody doesn't just max spot and listen and call it a day. We want crazy hiding godzillas, remember?

The saves are just following the ranger example because I feel he's an outdoorsy type that would want both of those for wilderness survival. Cutting Reflex doesn't make sense if I want evasion, and cutting fortitude doesn't fit with the durability that it's abilities suggest. I think it fits, but if it's too big a deal, I guess I could cut reflex and find some other abilities.

If I increase BAB, I'm worried about natural attacks, especially the claws, getting out of hand. Am I right in thinking this, or does it make a difference?
Well, I certainly wouldn't have full BAB and all those extra fixings, but I think it balances out either way. The Barbarian's an outdoorsy type too though, and doesn't get good Ref saves. And honestly, I see these guys having more parallel with Barbarians than with Rangers. The skillpoint thing, though... every class needs more skillpoints IMO, so I won't worry about it.

[DragoonWraith]

Again, I believe CharOp wisdom is flawed here. There are some sources of free infinite healing out there, but not many, and most either stop at half max hp (draconic aura, Touch of Healing) or would be considered cheesy in many groups (DMM Persist Mass Lesser Vigor), or takes a significant time/action investment (most of the above, plus TTS DN and Buer Binder). So yes there's free healing out there, but hardly anything on the scale you're proposing, either for magnitude or for ease.
I agree with the rest of your arguments, but not this. Wands of Lesser Vigor might as well be free after a certain level, and can do an excellent job of keeping everyone in tip-top shape in between encounters. Healing Belts and Wands of Cure Light Wounds are similar in function and identical in cost. The "half HP" thing is not that common (I'm pretty sure you mentioned the only two instances).

[ArcanistSupreme]

What I'd do is take out Deflection (that's almost invariably magical in nature), make the Natural Armor easy to get, but make the Dodge sparser. It's only when you're getting a whole bunch of sources of AC that it becomes weird. A top level Evolved getting +5 NA (Dragonfire Adepts get the same) and +3 Dodge is reasonable. I might even make it easier to pick up within those sorts of limits...

lvl 2 - Armored Skin: +2 NA

lvl 6 - Sixth Sense: +1 Dodge

lvl 8 - Improved Armored Skin: +2 NA, stacks (so +4 total)

lvl 12 - Improved Sixth Sense: +1 Dodge, stacks (so +2 total)

lvl 16 - Superior Armored Skin: +2 NA, stacks (so +6 total)

lvl 18 - Superior Sixth Sense: +1 Dodge, stacks (so +3 total)


....but that's the most I'd ever really offer in terms of AC.

This is pretty much going to require a total overhaul of the defense mechanic, but that's cool. I think I'll get at least the basics up sometime tomorrow. You said that the energy resistances and regeneration were fine, so how should the SR and DR work? What is a reasonable breakdown by level? Is DR/- okay, or should I make it more like the cellular regeneration ability and have it become better with multiple instances of the same ability?


A single scaling disease is probably the best way. DC = Con + HD/2 or somesuch. Effect could also be based on level.

What about rolling a d% (with increasing chances for additional rolls) to determine what happens? On a related note, there is also some concern that the bite tree isn't as strong as the others due to the prevalence of disease immunity. What are your thoughts on this and the aspect trees in general? Is the order that the abilities are gained in reasonable/logical?


Well, I certainly wouldn't have full BAB and all those extra fixings, but I think it balances out either way. The Barbarian's an outdoorsy type too though, and doesn't get good Ref saves. And honestly, I see these guys having more parallel with Barbarians than with Rangers. The skillpoint thing, though... every class needs more skillpoints IMO, so I won't worry about it.

A big part of the class concept (which will mostly be made apparent from fluff) is that this is also a hunter class, as in stalking prey and stuff. To me, this says Ranger more than Barbarian, but it's not a huge difference. *Shrug* I'm just going to leave it as is as long as it isn't a balance issue.

EDIT:
I agree with the rest of your arguments, but not this. Wands of Lesser Vigor might as well be free after a certain level, and can do an excellent job of keeping everyone in tip-top shape in between encounters. Healing Belts and Wands of Cure Light Wounds are similar in function and identical in cost. The "half HP" thing is not that common (I'm pretty sure you mentioned the only two instances).

So what would you suggest as a reasonable fast healing progression? Would it be better to limit it at lower levels? What should it cap at?

[sonofzeal]

I agree with the rest of your arguments, but not this. Wands of Lesser Vigor might as well be free after a certain level, and can do an excellent job of keeping everyone in tip-top shape in between encounters. Healing Belts and Wands of Cure Light Wounds are similar in function and identical in cost. The "half HP" thing is not that common (I'm pretty sure you mentioned the only two instances).
Wands of Lesser Vigor are slow though. They're more action-efficient than TTS DN or Buer Binding, but slower and do cost money, and generally won't have any in-combat effect. Neither Wands of Lesser Vigor, nor Healing Belts, compares with having high natural Fast Healing.

[DragoonWraith]

Which is why they're out-of-combat only. But still, "free" out-of-combat healing is common, which you seemed to be suggesting wasn't the case. That's what I was objecting to.

[Jane_Smith]

Chill with the fast healing hate. -_- You act like its a 20th level wizard spelllist. You can change your brown pants - it wont break the game or even be that huge of a factor past level 3+. Hell, imagine at level 20? Fast healing -10- by then isnt even worth mentioning.

(Considering CR 20 monsters deal damage in the 50-200+ range - a round. Usually to multiple targets).

[ArcanistSupreme]

Which is why they're out-of-combat only. But still, "free" out-of-combat healing is common, which you seemed to be suggesting wasn't the case. That's what I was objecting to.

Do you agree to cap the fast healing at 10?

[sonofzeal]

This is pretty much going to require a total overhaul of the defense mechanic, but that's cool. I think I'll get at least the basics up sometime tomorrow. You said that the energy resistances and regeneration were fine, so how should the SR and DR work? What is a reasonable breakdown by level? Is DR/- okay, or should I make it more like the cellular regeneration ability and have it become better with multiple instances of the same ability?
DR/- is not that big. If it's around HD/2, it's nice but not gamebreaking. It might be hilarious to pair an Evolved with my "Henry the Indestructable" experiment, but that's obscure enough not to worry about.

SR is a bit touchier. If SR < HD, it's pretty much useless... but if SR > HD + 10, it's massively powerful in many games. You have to let them keep it in that fairly narrow window.

I might consider, rather than 20 choices that offer a static benefit, maybe 5 choices that offer a level-based benefit. So if you choose NA then it gradually scales from +1 to +6; if you choose SR then it scales at HD+5; if you choose DR then it scales at HD/2. Might be easier to balance that way.



What about rolling a d% (with increasing chances for additional rolls) to determine what happens? On a related note, there is also some concern that the bite tree isn't as strong as the others due to the prevalence of disease immunity. What are your thoughts on this and the aspect trees in general? Is the order that the abilities are gained in reasonable/logical?
Mmm... d% again is getting kind of complicated. I know that as a player or DM, I'd want common attacks like this to be quickly resolvable. And yeah, the Bite does seem a bit weaker overall.

I'd ask myself what role I see for each choice. Tail is battlefield control, Claw is damage, Bite is... debuff? I'd play that up then, replace the whole Attach/Vile thing with progressively worse and worse debuffs. Blood Drain for Con damage works, but you could also have a Curse or Cripple aspect too. Honestly, a no-save no-SR Bestow Curse might make a nasty capstone for the bite.



A big part of the class concept (which will mostly be made apparent from fluff) is that this is also a hunter class, as in stalking prey and stuff. To me, this says Ranger more than Barbarian, but it's not a huge difference. *Shrug* I'm just going to leave it as is as long as it isn't a balance issue.
Yep, just up to how you want to present the class. In that case then, I might offer the Evolved a choice between Powerful Build and Slight Build, and between going up a size category and going down a size category. Shouldn't be any more powerful, but might reinforce that the class isn't just about being a melee brute.

[sonofzeal]

Chill with the fast healing hate. -_- You act like its a 20th level wizard spelllist. You can change your brown pants - it wont break the game or even be that huge of a factor past level 3+. Hell, imagine at level 20? Fast healing -10- by then isnt even worth mentioning.

(Considering CR 20 monsters deal damage in the 50-200+ range - a round. Usually to multiple targets).
You're focusing too much on level 20. I'm more concerned with the path getting there. High fast healing can be massive in low/mid levels, which is where most games are played. If it's problematic in the lvl 1-14 range, then it's a problem, even if it ceases to matter as you get closer to epic. And I'd say Fast Healing 5 at level 6 is problematic.

[DragoonWraith]

Do you agree to cap the fast healing at 10?
I don't know specific numbers; 10 seems like it's going to be doing little-to-nothing in combat, but that's just me. Out of combat, it's just not that useful.

But I agree with sonofzeal's other arguments, especially the "you're either totally dead or totally fine" one, so may Fast Healing is just not a great property for non-puzzle monsters to have.

[ArcanistSupreme]

DR/- is not that big. If it's around HD/2, it's nice but not gamebreaking. It might be hilarious to pair an Evolved with my "Henry the Indestructable" experiment, but that's obscure enough not to worry about.

Now I'm curious. Could I get a link?


SR is a bit touchier. If SR < HD, it's pretty much useless... but if SR > HD + 10, it's massively powerful in many games. You have to let them keep it in that fairly narrow window.

I might consider, rather than 20 choices that offer a static benefit, maybe 5 choices that offer a level-based benefit. So if you choose NA then it gradually scales from +1 to +6; if you choose SR then it scales at HD+5; if you choose DR then it scales at HD/2. Might be easier to balance that way.[/quote

This would be much easier. However, I would also want a couple more options if I did it like this (ideas?), and I'll need to think about how to word the regeneration (and possibly the fast healing abilities) so they aren't a mess.

Changing this would help differentiate it further from the Evolutionist, but it also prevents people from taking a little bit of everything if they are so inclined. As my goal is for all options to be playable, I guess this is a good thing. I'll work up a progression system and see what happens.

[QUOTE=sonofzeal;9487921]Mmm... d% again is getting kind of complicated. I know that as a player or DM, I'd want common attacks like this to be quickly resolvable. And yeah, the Bite does seem a bit weaker overall.

I'd ask myself what role I see for each choice. Tail is battlefield control, Claw is damage, Bite is... debuff? I'd play that up then, replace the whole Attach/Vile thing with progressively worse and worse debuffs. Blood Drain for Con damage works, but you could also have a Curse or Cripple aspect too. Honestly, a no-save no-SR Bestow Curse might make a nasty capstone for the bite.

That's an interesting option. Is there a way to do this using (Ex) abilities? It's not a huge deal, but my preference is for the aspects to be nonmagical.


Yep, just up to how you want to present the class. In that case then, I might offer the Evolved a choice between Powerful Build and Slight Build, and between going up a size category and going down a size category. Shouldn't be any more powerful, but might reinforce that the class isn't just about being a melee brute.

A lot of people suggest this. Is there any benefit for this class to be smaller? As far as I can tell, being smaller is just worse due to the lack of precision damage and the fact that all melee classes want to be big. The only thing that being smaller would help with would be stealth, which, while a fun and flavorful part of the class, is not an integral part of it's playability.

EDIT:

I don't know specific numbers; 10 seems like it's going to be doing little-to-nothing in combat, but that's just me. Out of combat, it's just not that useful.

But I agree with sonofzeal's other arguments, especially the "you're either totally dead or totally fine" one, so may Fast Healing is just not a great property for non-puzzle monsters to have.

What about 15? If 10 is nothing and 20 ignores anything other than massive damage, is the average the way to go?

[Zaydos]

4d8+13/2d8+7/2d8+7/2d6+7/2d6+7/2d8+20
Full attack routine of a great wyrm white dragon; damage 133 if it always hits and no DR.

Assuming you have DR 10 that cuts the damage to 73; and since this class gives DR 10 that's a decent assumption.

If you can get a 56 or higher AC it cuts the hits in half giving 46 average damage per round (I can't say whether this class can get that until you finish revising; it could get +10 AC and both of these before hand which would allow something near this).

Fast Healing 10 will undo 1 round every 5; which is rather pitiful.

Fast Healing 15 will reduce the damage it deals by a 3rd which is fairly good. At level 20, Fast Healing 20 might not be broken; at low levels it's much better.

[sonofzeal]

Now I'm curious. Could I get a link?
I think it's been eaten in the WotC changeovers, but basically it involved just massive stacking of "Roll With It" from Savage Species and various ways to dump as many feats as possible into getting crazy DR and not much else. More of a thought experiment in the limits of DRitude than a playable character, but some of the principals are useable in moderation.

I believe the record using Henry-type builds was DR 47/-, but no spare feats and no useful... anything really, besides gold.


This would be much easier. However, I would also want a couple more options if I did it like this (ideas?), and I'll need to think about how to word the regeneration (and possibly the fast healing abilities) so they aren't a mess.

Changing this would help differentiate it further from the Evolutionist, but it also prevents people from taking a little bit of everything if they are so inclined. As my goal is for all options to be playable, I guess this is a good thing. I'll work up a progression system and see what happens.
Hmm....

Natural Armor (HD/3)
Dodge (HD/6)
DR (HD/2)
SR (HD+5)
Saves (HD/3, resistance bonus only)
Energy Resist (HD*2, one element only, can be taken repeatedly for different elements)
Fast Healing (HD/3, requires lvl 6?)
Regeneration (possible upgrade on Fast Healing, requires lvl 14 or so?)
Concealment (flat 20%, requires lvl 8?)
Ability Score Healing (1/hour, requires lvl 4?)
Immunity to Death/Soul/Necromancy Effects
Immunity to Poison/Disease
Immunity to Charm/Compulsion


That's an interesting option. Is there a way to do this using (Ex) abilities? It's not a huge deal, but my preference is for the aspects to be nonmagical.
I might just start copying the Bestow Curse options, and adding them in at appropriate levels. The "Hexer" PrC from Masters of the Wild also has some awesome and unusual debuffs.



A lot of people suggest this. Is there any benefit for this class to be smaller? As far as I can tell, being smaller is just worse due to the lack of precision damage and the fact that all melee classes want to be big. The only thing that being smaller would help with would be stealth, which, while a fun and flavorful part of the class, is not an integral part of it's playability.
It doesn't synergize well, no, but only with the Melee Brute aspect. Instead, it'd play into the mobility/scounting aspect, and work well with the HiPS we were talking about. And again, giving inferior alternatives is never a bad thing, because some people might choose them for... I dunno... flavour/RP reasons? And I don't see anything wrong with that.


What about 15? If 10 is nothing and 20 ignores anything other than massive damage, is the average the way to go?
Again, it's not about lvl20, but about how you get there. Honestly, I wouldn't mind a big number if it was limited by half max hp. That alone would prevent it from giving a false sense of invulnerability, because an Evolved at half health can still be rather panicked and pressed hard, even if he's got a buffer. And that's what matters to me, that the PCs can have a sense of danger. As DM I positively live for the moments where the PCs aren't quite sure they'll make it, but then pull it together to win a narrow victory. And capping the healing at half health leaves that sort of ambiguity.

[ArcanistSupreme]

4d8+13/2d8+7/2d8+7/2d6+7/2d6+7/2d8+20
Full attack routine of a great wyrm white dragon; damage 133 if it always hits and no DR.

Assuming you have DR 10 that cuts the damage to 73; and since this class gives DR 10 that's a decent assumption.

If you can get a 56 or higher AC it cuts the hits in half giving 46 average damage per round (I can't say whether this class can get that until you finish revising; it could get +10 AC and both of these before hand which would allow something near this).

Fast Healing 10 will undo 1 round every 5; which is rather pitiful.

Fast Healing 15 will reduce the damage it deals by a 3rd which is fairly good. At level 20, Fast Healing 20 might not be broken; at low levels it's much better.

Right now it's looking like around +9 since deflection is getting dropped and the other two got nerfed. Unless you can think of another armor modifier that fits thematically, let's just go with that number for now.

[sonofzeal]

Do note that Zaydos's example involves being full-attacked by a True Dragon... which is generally a recipe for disaster no matter who you are. True Dragons are notoriously under-CR'd. I'd rather see the same calculations with a Balor, if you really insist on focussing on level 20, but I've already said everything I want to about the importance of 1-14.

[Zaydos]

Well that leaves it with a respectable AC,unlikely to dodge a great wyrm dragon (they have the highest attack bonuses for their level except the tarrasque) but enough to stand in front of a pit fiend, and taunt it (46 + Dex assuming [animated] buckler, mithril chain shirt, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, and dusty rose ioun stone; pit fiends have +30 to hit). Let's assume 20 Dex after magic items (could get that higher).

Which means the dragon would likely deal 47.25 (I should have subtracted DR first last time giving 36 damage/round with 56 or higher AC), which means Fast Healing 15 is definitely enough there.

Now against a more common power level foe (a pit fiend): they need a nat 20 to hit; deal at most 20 damage in a hit (assuming max damage) and the AC bonus is definitely too high, the DR about right, and the fast healing a touch too much.

Now against a lv 20 NPC fighter, I can't say.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I think it's been eaten in the WotC changeovers, but basically it involved just massive stacking of "Roll With It" from Savage Species and various ways to dump as many feats as possible into getting crazy DR and not much else. More of a thought experiment in the limits of DRitude than a playable character, but some of the principals are useable in moderation.

I believe the record using Henry-type builds was DR 47/-, but no spare feats and no useful... anything really, besides gold.

Sounds fun. Sad that it's gone...:smallfrown:


Hmm....

Natural Armor (HD/3)
Dodge (HD/6)
DR (HD/2)
SR (HD+5)
Saves (HD/3, resistance bonus only)
Energy Resist (HD*2, one element only, can be taken repeatedly for different elements)
Fast Healing (HD/3, requires lvl 6?)
Regeneration (possible upgrade on Fast Healing, requires lvl 14 or so?)
Concealment (flat 20%, requires lvl 8?)
Ability Score Healing (1/hour, requires lvl 4?)
Immunity to Death/Soul/Necromancy Effects
Immunity to Poison/Disease
Immunity to Charm/Compulsion

And wow, you just did all of the work for me. Thanks! I think I'll leave regen as a separate ability, though, to allow it to stack with fast healing.


I might just start copying the Bestow Curse options, and adding them in at appropriate levels. The "Hexer" PrC from Masters of the Wild also has some awesome and unusual debuffs.

That's a nice, simple solution. I'll look into that.


It doesn't synergize well, no, but only with the Melee Brute aspect. Instead, it'd play into the mobility/scounting aspect, and work well with the HiPS we were talking about. And again, giving inferior alternatives is never a bad thing, because some people might choose them for... I dunno... flavour/RP reasons? And I don't see anything wrong with that.

Well, the monk is flavorful too. :smalltongue: I guess I'll put it in, possibly with a note about how most evolved become larger. I'll probably do it as an ACF so I don't have to mess with the class features on the table.


Again, it's not about lvl20, but about how you get there. Honestly, I wouldn't mind a big number if it was limited by half max hp. That alone would prevent it from giving a false sense of invulnerability, because an Evolved at half health can still be rather panicked and pressed hard, even if he's got a buffer. And that's what matters to me, that the PCs can have a sense of danger. As DM I positively live for the moments where the PCs aren't quite sure they'll make it, but then pull it together to win a narrow victory. And capping the healing at half health leaves that sort of ambiguity.

Solution! Fast healing 20 to half health, then concentration+full-round actions to go to full! That's a full round action for each 20 beyond half, just to be clear.

[Zaydos]

Well assuming you spend 217,120 GP on AC boosts (+5 Animated Mithril Shield, +5 Mithril Chain Shirt, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +6 Gloves of Dexterity, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone) and start with a 16 in Dex, Balors need a nat 20 to hit you if using both weapons, or a 18 to hit you if using only their sword; and they deal 5 damage per hit on average, and you heal 20 of it.

That might be a little much.

Unless the only melee combatants you fight are true dragons, and Big T, you won't be getting hurt in melee if you pay ~33% of your gold on basic defensive items.

Edit: Note I've ran those items (minus the animated trait on the shield) before.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Well assuming you spend 217,120 GP on AC boosts (+5 Animated Mithril Shield, +5 Mithril Chain Shirt, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +6 Gloves of Dexterity, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone) and start with a 16 in Dex, Balors need a nat 20 to hit you if using both weapons, or a 18 to hit you if using only their sword; and they deal 5 damage per hit on average, and you heal 20 of it.

That might be a little much.

Unless the only melee combatants you fight are true dragons, and Big T, you won't be getting hurt in melee if you pay ~33% of your gold on basic defensive items.

Edit: Note I've ran those items (minus the animated trait on the shield) before.

Also take into account the possible +10 enhancement to Dex with Enhanced Physique ability (which doesn't stack with the gloves but uses less wealth and nets an additional +2 to AC). Hmm. Granted, his touch AC is still pretty meh, but this would probably be pretty common gear since he probably won't be spending much money on weapons. This is indeed problematic. Does +9 (+14 with Dex modifiers) to AC really make that much of a difference? :smalleek:

As for the healing 20 of it, healing 10 or 15 of it is still more than enough, and it will only heal to half in combat. I don't think that fast healing is the issue in this situation.

[Zaydos]

The thing is when people say AC doesn't matter it's because it doesn't help against casters; now I've never seen that in actual play (personally I like elemental monoliths [CR 17; against fliers +35 to hit for air elemental monolith, top against flying creatures is +36 to hit for earth elemental monolith for 33 damage], advanced elemental monoliths [at CR 20 that's +46 to hit for air elementals, +47 for earth], and colossal scorpions [CR 12, +35 to hit; +3.5 rounded up to hit per +1 to CR by advancement rules which start to break down for this before Lv 20 or else it would be +63 to hit; as a special note magma elemental scorpions can be punched out by an Iron Heart focused warblade while grappling him]).

I was also working on the assumption of only 4 defensive abilities at full. The additional +2 to AC means that a +33 or lower needs a nat 20 to hit; at the same time a +51 or higher hits on a 2 or higher. Also remember too many DMs don't bother to do number crunching such as advancing monsters when making encounters (and a CR 20 colossal scorpion is a really strange encounter at that level).

Edit: In general, though, against an enemy that has a 50% to 100% chance of hitting (ignoring auto-fail) it will reduce the chance of being hit by 45%. Also total is +8 AC over what a fighter gets if they optimize AC.

[ArcanistSupreme]

So hows about we drop the dodge bonus altogether? And then we take max Dex bonuses into account (mithral chain shirt is +6)? Does that make things a little more reasonable?

[DragoonWraith]

On a d20 roll, you can think of every +1 as an additional 5% chance of getting what you wanted (provided you're not in the only-on-a-1 or only-on-a-20 areas). +9 would be sort of like having a 45% better chance of not being hit. That's pretty huge.

[Zaydos]

I actually was taking max Dex into account in the original numbers (note Dex 16 + Gloves = 22 Dex or +6); they assumed the max Dex for a chain shirt. Although you can get above it with the Nimbleness quality (an extra 11,000 GP).

[sonofzeal]

That matches my experience. If you're spending 30% or more of your gold on AC, you can usually more than keep up with most stuff out there. Other classes do give bonuses on top of that, but rarely more than +5 or so. You need to be careful with large bonuses here.

On the other hand, the Evolved doesn't get shields, nor does it get heavy armor, and it'll likely be eating a size penalty to AC, so that may balance out slightly.

[Zaydos]

That matches my experience. If you're spending 30% or more of your gold on AC, you can usually more than keep up with most stuff out there. Other classes do give bonuses on top of that, but rarely more than +5 or so. You need to be careful with large bonuses here.

On the other hand, the Evolved doesn't get shields, nor does it get heavy armor, and it'll likely be eating a size penalty to AC, so that may balance out slightly.

Don't need proficiency in shields; Mithril Shield has no ACP so proficiency does nothing. Throw in animated and it doesn't take up your arm. Only people who can't use shields are arcane hierophants and monks.

[ArcanistSupreme]

On the other hand, the Evolved doesn't get shields, nor does it get heavy armor, and it'll likely be eating a size penalty to AC, so that may balance out slightly.

This brings up the issue of offering the small size again. If I allow it, AC calculations go out the window again. If I change the bite tree to a debuff one, that little bugger is going to be nearly impossible to hit. While the idea of a ridiculously hard to kill mosquito is funny, it could also break the game. Should I keep the +9 AC but disallow the small option? Or should I remove AC bonuses altogether?

:smallconfused: My lack of experience is leaving me pretty confused at this point.

EDIT: I've updated the class to include the suggested changes, with the exception of the bite tree and the "small evolved" ACF. Should this ACF preclude taking the armored skin defense?

Also, does anyone have a rough idea for the progression of the bite tree? I was thinking inflicting sickened, nauseated, disease, and blood drain. Does this sound good? Is the order right? Should they replace or stack?

2nd EDIT: I also discovered that I have a dead level when I finally removed all of the "Evolved Power" abilities from the table. Any suggestions for moving stuff around or a mostly flavorful ability to fill it?

[sonofzeal]

Keep in mind that the "nauseated" status ailment is one of the worst in the game. Use it only with caution.

"Small" tree shouldn't preclude anything... except maybe that the character should be Medium or bigger to quality for it in the first place. PCs were not meant to be Tiny.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Keep in mind that the "nauseated" status ailment is one of the worst in the game. Use it only with caution.

"Small" tree shouldn't preclude anything... except maybe that the character should be Medium or bigger to quality for it in the first place. PCs were not meant to be Tiny.

What about sickened=>disease=>blindness=>blood drain? Those would also have the benefit of stacking nicely without any extra rolling.

EDIT: I'll definitely be making this tree an ACF with a note that it should only be allowed for medium characters.