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TechnOkami
2010-09-19, 06:14 PM
Why is this class considered a tier 1 class?

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-19, 06:18 PM
Point one: he has full access to the Cleric spell list.

Point two: he has nearly-full access to the Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Adept and Shugenja spell lists, as well as all Cleric domain spells.

Point three: unlike most full casters, he has class abilities. Nifty ones, even.

He is almost as good as an Artificer at casting every spell in the game.

Claudius Maximus
2010-09-19, 06:19 PM
It's halfway between a cleric and a wizard, except it can gain all of the spells from both of them, and arguably every other spell too for that matter.

dgnslyr
2010-09-19, 06:20 PM
It's an INT based full caster that uses the cleric spell list but prepares spells like a wizard? It's hard for a full, Vancian caster to NOT suck.

Edit: Swordsage'd hard

TechnOkami
2010-09-19, 06:21 PM
He is almost as good as an Artificer at casting every spell in the game.

Ok, so why is an Artificer better?

Starbuck_II
2010-09-19, 06:25 PM
Ok, so why is an Artificer better?

Artificers get Crafting XP points for free crafting of magic items. These refresh every level.
So every level he gets to make free stuff for 1/2 price (1/2 market value as all magic crafting items are).

Arbitrarity
2010-09-19, 06:25 PM
Spell access for creating items two levels earlier, no restrictions on arcane or divine magic types. Archivists can cast almost anything (barring Southern Magician, Alternative Source Spell shennanigans), but Artificers can just make items that cast anything.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-19, 06:26 PM
Ok, so why is an Artificer better?

Artificers can actually cast every spell (by crafting them into scrolls and staffs). Archivists miss a few spells, like some of the Wu Jen-only ones.

TechnOkami
2010-09-19, 06:29 PM
oO" ...oh... ...oh wow...

BRC
2010-09-19, 06:45 PM
People above have done a good job of explaining why Archivists are so good, but here are some specific upshots of the class.
1) Domain Spells. Any Spell that is part of a cleric domain can become part of your spell list. Domains are easy to make, so pretty much every sourcebook makes a few, giving you a massive list of spells, many of which are not otherwise divine.
2) Ranger and Paladin Spell Lists: Now this may not seem like much. After all, neither Rangers nor Paladins are full casters, which is kind of the point. There are some unique spells on those lists, and since said lists only go up to 4th level, these unique spells are balanced differently.
For example, the spell Holy Sword, it turns a melee weapon into a +5 holy weapon that emits a Magic Circle Against Evil. Any weapon, you can pick up a random stick and turn it into the Stick of Balorsmashing. It's a powerful spell, but a paladin dosn't get access to it until level 15.

Our good friend the archivist can get it at level 7. "But BRC" you say "Archivists are terrible in direct combat, and Holy Sword stops if you let go, so you can't hand it off to a more skilled party member", well fun fact, seventh level is also when Archivists gain access to Divine Power. Now all an archivist needs it two rounds to transform itself into into an evil-slaying machine.
And that's just one trick, using only core spells. If you throw in the Spell Compendium, plus the countless other books, things get alot more interesting.

They also have access to the entire druidic spell list, and so much more. If you have regular access to divine scrolls, this can be a very dangerous class indeed.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-19, 06:53 PM
Archivist can cast spells from...

Cleric and all Cleric Variants
Cleric Domains
Adept
Divine Bard
Druid
All Paladin Variants
Ranger and all Ranger Variants
Shugenja

In fact... look here...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-19, 07:05 PM
Ok, so why is an Artificer better?

Because item crafting is tech.


And the Spell-to-Power Erudite is better still, but the Psionic Artificer beats everything (access to all spells and psionic powers, period).

AslanCross
2010-09-19, 07:05 PM
For example, the spell Holy Sword, it turns a melee weapon into a +5 holy weapon that emits a Magic Circle Against Evil. Any weapon, you can pick up a random stick and turn it into the Stick of Balorsmashing. It's a powerful spell, but a paladin dosn't get access to it until level 15.

Our good friend the archivist can get it at level 7. "But BRC" you say "Archivists are terrible in direct combat, and Holy Sword stops if you let go, so you can't hand it off to a more skilled party member", well fun fact, seventh level is also when Archivists gain access to Divine Power. Now all an archivist needs it two rounds to transform itself into into an evil-slaying machine.
And that's just one trick, using only core spells. If you throw in the Spell Compendium, plus the countless other books, things get alot more interesting.

They also have access to the entire druidic spell list, and so much more. If you have regular access to divine scrolls, this can be a very dangerous class indeed.

Of course, the Archivist can also always just cast Holy Sword directly on the party tank's weapon. Your point still stands, though.

Nohwl
2010-09-19, 07:08 PM
Artificers can actually cast every spell (by crafting them into scrolls and staffs). Archivists miss a few spells, like some of the Wu Jen-only ones.

archivists don't miss any spells. alternative source spell and geomancer should make divine versions of them exist.

BRC
2010-09-19, 07:10 PM
Of course, the Archivist can also always just cast Holy Sword directly on the party tank's weapon. Your point still stands, though.
Nope, the spell automatically ends one round after it leaves the caster's hand, so the Tank would only get the Holy Sword for one round, unless the Archivist manages to keep holding onto the weapon while the tank is swinging it around somehow which, while a hilarious mental image, doesn't sound like it would work too well.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-19, 07:11 PM
archivists don't miss any spells. alternative source spell and geomancer should make divine versions of them exist.

And exactly how many Geomancers with Alternate Source Spell exist in your DM's campaign world?

I'd hazard that the answer is 'none'.

Thurbane
2010-09-19, 07:11 PM
1) Domain Spells. Any Spell that is part of a cleric domain can become part of your spell list. Domains are easy to make, so pretty much every sourcebook makes a few, giving you a massive list of spells, many of which are not otherwise divine.
Indeed - Cleric Domain List (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html)

BRC
2010-09-19, 07:16 PM
Indeed - Cleric Domain List (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html)
Yup. I just finished up a campaign where I played an Archivist, I had good fun, even though I only rarely had access to new scrolls (It was a zombie apocalypse, so I was limited to what scrolls I could loot from abandoned shops before the zombie horde showed up).

Tyndmyr
2010-09-19, 07:18 PM
Nope, the spell automatically ends one round after it leaves the caster's hand, so the Tank would only get the Holy Sword for one round, unless the Archivist manages to keep holding onto the weapon while the tank is swinging it around somehow which, while a hilarious mental image, doesn't sound like it would work too well.

For a small enough caster, and a large enough tank, this could be a hilarious goal.

Imagine, a wand socket with a wizard inside.

Nohwl
2010-09-19, 07:20 PM
And exactly how many Geomancers with Alternate Source Spell exist in your DM's campaign world?

I'd hazard that the answer is 'none'.

you don't need both. either one makes arcane spells divine. southern magician might be another way to make arcane spells divine.

you find a 12th level warlock to make the scrolls for you because going around finding everyone who has each different spell is annoying.

BRC
2010-09-19, 07:36 PM
For a small enough caster, and a large enough tank, this could be a hilarious goal.

Imagine, a wand socket with a wizard inside.
I just had a brilliant idea for an Epic-level foe.
A Blackguard who has teamed up with a Demilich. The Demilich has attached a mace handle to himself, effectively turning himself into a mace. He's got DR15/epic, plus whatever magic items has has at his phylactery, so he's certainly durable enough, and can always take a round to heal himself if he gets cracked, and it's not like he has to worry too much about dieing anyway.
Anybody the Blackguard hits is affected by the Demilich's paralyzing touch, it's no-save 10d6 touch attack, a Harm (If the Demilich dosn't feel like wasting a spell slot, and dosn't have anything better to do), the epic-level Blackguard's strength bonus+any other extra damage source he applies, and mace damage.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-19, 07:39 PM
Awesome. For added awesomeness, if you can treat the lich(at least, while attached to the handle) as a weapon, spell storing.

And make sure the lich takes the metamagic feat "retributive spell". For a mere +1, when someone hits you, the desired spell goes off.

If additional pain is desired, give the Blackguard levels in war hulk.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-09-19, 08:05 PM
Awesome. For added awesomeness, if you can treat the lich(at least, while attached to the handle) as a weapon, spell storing.

And make sure the lich takes the metamagic feat "retributive spell". For a mere +1, when someone hits you, the desired spell goes off.

If additional pain is desired, give the Blackguard levels in war hulk.

Why does this even sound remotely effective... What lich in their right mind would agree to this... and yet looking at it, why wouldn't they?

Escheton
2010-09-19, 08:06 PM
All of this does require a lenient dm or one that doesn't realise that clerics taking scribe scroll and scribing their domainspells and selling them freely aren't quite as common. Same goes for rangers and paladins and such.
The power comes from not having to scour the land looking for these things and assuming a random magic shop can provide all these.
Adding more realism and contemplating the market a bit will tone down the power of an archivist significally.

12th lvl warlock trick works though.

BRC
2010-09-19, 08:14 PM
Why does this even sound remotely effective... What lich in their right mind would agree to this... and yet looking at it, why wouldn't they?
Well, in order to become a demilich you must first use unspeakable magics to twist yourself into an undead mockery of life. THEN you must decide that all those bones below the neck are just slowing you down. Letting your biggest, dumbest minion use you to beat your foes to a pulp makes perfect sense at that point.
At the very least it discourages people from making puns like "Looks like you got AHEAD of the game" and "Heads will roll"

Keld Denar
2010-09-19, 08:22 PM
The 12th level warlock trick doesn't work. Warlock and Artificer scrolls were ruled to be neither arcane or divine. They are just generic and can only be used by UMD. Don't remember where the exact ruling was, but yea...

Also, the 11th level Archivist Dark Knowledge is FREAKIN AWESOME. Being able to daze people with your move action is pretty clutch. Sure, it doesn't work on EVERYTHING, but it works on enough things that you can generally pull it out once a fight.

That's badass, IMO.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-09-19, 08:23 PM
Well, in order to become a demilich you must first use unspeakable magics to twist yourself into an undead mockery of life. THEN you must decide that all those bones below the neck are just slowing you down. Letting your biggest, dumbest minion use you to beat your foes to a pulp makes perfect sense at that point.
At the very least it discourages people from making puns like "Looks like you got AHEAD of the game" and "Heads will roll"

Ah, it just changes who they direct the puns at...

This gives me an idea though, in an epic game, have the main enemy appear to be a martial type (or a cleric to make players less suspicious) have it wield the demilich, with all the epic magics it can muster to make it immune to divinations. Of course the demilich is the real villain, but the cleric, a threat in it's own right, is what the players prepare for. When the demilich sees a dangerous opponent, it stops pretending it's a ridiculously powerful magical mace, and starts removing opposition with it's magic.

This of course would not be remotely humane to spring on players, but it would make sense.

Nohwl
2010-09-19, 08:29 PM
The 12th level warlock trick doesn't work. Warlock and Artificer scrolls were ruled to be neither arcane or divine. They are just generic and can only be used by UMD. Don't remember where the exact ruling was, but yea...

Also, the 11th level Archivist Dark Knowledge is FREAKIN AWESOME. Being able to daze people with your move action is pretty clutch. Sure, it doesn't work on EVERYTHING, but it works on enough things that you can generally pull it out once a fight.

That's badass, IMO.

i know artificers were errataed to not make arcane or divine scrolls, where does it say so for warlocks?

Lhurgyof
2010-09-19, 10:20 PM
And exactly how many Geomancers with Alternate Source Spell exist in your DM's campaign world?

I'd hazard that the answer is 'none'.

Yes, but as far as I can tell this is looking at it from a RAW point of view, like all the rest of the threads like this. And, by RAW, it works.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-09-19, 11:10 PM
And exactly how many Geomancers with Alternate Source Spell exist in your DM's campaign world?

I'd hazard that the answer is 'none'.

That's not even necessary. Due to how item crafting works, as long as the Archivist has someone who either has the spell directly or can fake it like an artificer or warlock, then he, too, has every spell ever.

Leon
2010-09-20, 04:48 AM
Point two: he has nearly-full access to the Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Adept and Shugenja spell lists, as well as all Cleric domain spells.


This is great if your DM lets have access to them but if your like me and get one who didnt its not fun. Love the class and will play one again but not with the current DM.
Playing a Cloistered Cleric now as at least i can have the flavour AND have a more flexible spell list.

In 9 levels of play we had as loot 5 Spellbooks vs 2 Cure Scrolls and i was allowed to learn one druid spell which stopped being of use shortly after learning it.

AslanCross
2010-09-20, 07:01 AM
Nope, the spell automatically ends one round after it leaves the caster's hand, so the Tank would only get the Holy Sword for one round, unless the Archivist manages to keep holding onto the weapon while the tank is swinging it around somehow which, while a hilarious mental image, doesn't sound like it would work too well.

Heh, wow. Didn't notice that. I thought that since it's a touch spell, one could actually cast it on someone else's sword.

Malbordeus
2010-09-20, 07:18 AM
theres also the Divine Magician ACF for the cleric for divine arcane spells. in which case, you can have spectral hand and keep touching the tanks weapon (insert inuendo here)

:smalltongue:

kestrel404
2010-09-20, 10:53 AM
Why does this even sound remotely effective... What lich in their right mind would agree to this... and yet looking at it, why wouldn't they?

Simple. This is the reason intelligent magic items exist - because hitting things with people instead of the other way round is always cool (and usually funny, and often epic).