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herrhauptmann
2010-09-19, 10:31 PM
A while back I was getting set to participate in a game where the DM included a few houserules (mostly irrelevant to my character idea), and stated his preferences regarding dipping into multiple classes. Primarily: Don't do it. I'm also willing to bet someones soul, as well as my own money that the game wouldn't require high levels of optimization. And I was to start at level 7.
Books allowed: PHB, Complete Series (except champion), DMG, MiC (I think).
My initial idea was an ubercharger with a minotaur greathammer, and the feat Deadly Concussion, assuming that Deadly Concussion gave an exception to the standard rule of not being able to sunder armor. So my question became a matter of what to take afterwards. Weapon focus tree didn't interest me, and psionics and ToB aren't allowed. I decided to ask about taking Abjurant Champion (requires a wiz/sorc dip), or Horizon Walker.

Full thread here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166286


Well the DM seems to have canceled the game. But I wanted to finish and post these builds anyway, using what I know he would allow, and what I expect would be ok. And of course I hope to get some feedback.

-So 1 variant included the exotic weapon master who eventually goes to Horizon Walker, another went abjurant champion to eldritch knight.
The Exotic Weapon master is based around the assumption that Deadly Concussion provides an exception to the rule that you can't sunder armor worn. Should a DM nix that idea, that'll free up 3 feats and 2 levels (Exotic Weap Prof, Deadly concussion, Weapon Focus, and 2 levels in EWM)
The builds are intended to be usable from level 7 onwards, but could be played from level 1, rather than a build like Jack B Quick which rather sucks until level 7 or 8, and doesn't get good until 12 or later.

************************************************** ******* *************************
Fighter 1, Bard 1, Fighter 2-8, EWM 2, Ranger 1, Horizon 8 I could swap fighter 1 and bard for extra skill points, and bard of course is the dip the DM nixed. So if the bard dip is vetoed too, I rearrange the order of EWP, Weapon Focus, and Deadly Concussion. That bard level becomes a level in ranger, and ideally I take ranger 2 at start, and use a different weapon style from Dragon Magazine. That'll free a few feats.
Ftr2/Brd1/Ftr8/EWM2/Rgr1/HW8
Bab 19 Fort: 17 Ref: 8 Will: 6
Str 17 18 19 20
Dex-12
Con-15 16
Int-14
Wis-11 12
Cha-10
Feats:
1) Power attack
H1)Cleave
F1)Imp Bullrush
F2)Imp Sunder
3) Deadly concussion
F4) EWP: Minotaur Greathammer
6)leap attack
F6)Shocktrooper
F8) Combat brute
9)Weapon focus
EWM Tricks: Exotic sunder, Trip attack
12)Endurance
15)
18)
Horizon walker terrain: Underground, Desert, Plains, Mountain, Aquatic,
Planar terrain: Shifting, Aligned (Evil), Cavernous
items: (partial wishlist for later levels)
+X Valorous Smoking Minotaur greathammer (+2 cost) +3k for adamantine, +5k for starmetal, +9K for gold/platinum (which will require another +1 of magic enhancements, or a feat), everbright
Belt of giant strength and belt of battle
Strongarm bracers
+X Armor (probably breastplate) mithril is +4k, Blueshine/durable, soulfire, retaliation, healing,
Custom boots of haste. As the spell, 5 rounds per use, infinite use. Approx 27k
Hewards haversack
Cloak of resistance


Fighter 1 (armored mage ACF), Abjurer 1 (immediate magic ACF), Fighter 2-6, Abjurant champ 5, and Eldritch knight 8?

Ftr6/Wiz1/AbjChamp/5/EK8
Bab 19, CL 19 (21 for abjuration), Fort: 12 Ref: 5 Will: 10 and spells per day as a 13th level abjurer
-There's probably other, easy entry Gish PrC's for me, but I can't think of any.
-Losing my familiar via immediate magic might suck, but weakening the spells coming at me should help make up for the sucky reflex save I'll have.
-Keeping the smoking weapon for miss chances, even with the high AC I'll get from Luminous armor + shield, I'm still going to get hit a lot due to shocktrooper.
Str 1718
Dex-12
Con-15
Int-14 15 16 17 18
Wis-11
Cha-10
Feats:
1) Power attack
H1)Cleave
F1)Imp Bullrush
F2)Imp Sunder
3) Collegiate wizard (learns 4 spells per level, rather than 2, right?)
F4) Leap attack
6) Combat casting
F6)Shocktrooper
9)Combat Brute
12)Magic disruption (CM)
EK1)
15)
18) Mystic backlash (CM)
-It would be nice if Abj Champ's extended and swift abjuration class abilities let me qualify for feats as if I had the extend or quicken metamagic feats. Even if I could only use those other metamagics on my abjuration spells.
Spells:
All 0th,
9 1st: Shield, Detect Magic, Read magic, Nerveskitter, fist of stone
8 2nd: Wraithstrike, rope trick, silver dragonmail (CoV)
8 3rd: Dispel magic, Suggestion, Haste, Invisibility, Fly, Greater mighty wallop (ROD, if I use a bludgeoning weap), Golden dragonmail (CoV)
8 4th: Luminous armor, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Firestride Exhalation (DM),
8 5th: Acid Sheath, baleful polymorph, teleport
8 6th: Contingency, Greater Dispel, Disintegrate
8 7th:Energy Absorption, Force Cage, Limited Wish, Prismatic Spray, Reverse Gravity

items:
+X Valorous Smoking Greatsword (+2 cost) +3k for adamantine, +5k for starmetal, +9K for gold/platinum (which will require another +1 of magic enhancements, or a feat)
Belt of giant strength, combined with belt of battle
Backup slashing weapon
Backup ranged weapon
+1 Light Armor (not for the AC, but as something to hold extra enchantments). Soulfire, Agility, durable, retaliation, healing (greater)
Headband of intellect
Tunic of steady spellcasting
Custom boots of haste. As the spell, 5 rounds per use, infinite use. Approx 27k
Amulet of natural armor +1
Hewards haversack
Cloak of resistance

Questions:
1:Scintillating scales is an abjuration spell that turns my natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. So even if my natural armor bonus is from an item, I should still get the +5 from abjurant champion right?

2:-Is there a way for a wizard to learn a normally divine spell? I was flipping through some Faerun books last night, and found a few divine abjurations that work almost as well as Luminous armor, but without the ability damage. I'd swear I also saw an arcane spell in one of them that would do the job too, but can't remember which book I saw it in. Currently I'm afraid that I might've forgotten to check for spells that actually gave a Armor or Shield bonus, rather than insight, luck, deflection etc.

3:The few casters I've played were very straightforward, so not sure if I'm interpreting something correctly. For any variable CL based effects at level 20, I cast as if I were a 19 level wizard, but I'm still restricted to my 7th level spells and below, right?

4:I've got a lot of spells known to fill out here as well. I'll look for the Swiftblade and Abj Champ handbooks later, that should be enough to fill me up.

Eldariel
2010-09-20, 06:19 AM
Questions:
1:Scintillating scales is an abjuration spell that turns my natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. So even if my natural armor bonus is from an item, I should still get the +5 from abjurant champion right?

I'd say that would be beyond RAW to answer if not for a small detail; I'd personally say since it changes one bonus type to another instead of granting a bonus, there would be no extra bonus. This is, however, irrelevant since Abjurant Armor states it only applies to Armor- and Shield-bonuses granted by abjurations instead of any AC bonus types.


2:-Is there a way for a wizard to learn a normally divine spell? I was flipping through some Faerun books last night, and found a few divine abjurations that work almost as well as Luminous armor, but without the ability damage. I'd swear I also saw an arcane spell in one of them that would do the job too, but can't remember which book I saw it in. Currently I'm afraid that I might've forgotten to check for spells that actually gave a Armor or Shield bonus, rather than insight, luck, deflection etc.

Things like Arcane Disciple [CDiv], Wyrm Wizard [DM], Recaster [RoE], etc. allow for learning divine spells as a Wizard. There's usually a means to get what you want. Though there's also the simple option of acquiring Lesser Restoration (Wand, Disciple, whatever) to counteract the Sanctified cost of Greater Luminous Armor (it still has the highest singular AC bonus of any spell, I recall).


3:The few casters I've played were very straightforward, so not sure if I'm interpreting something correctly. For any variable CL based effects at level 20, I cast as if I were a 19 level wizard, but I'm still restricted to my 7th level spells and below, right?

Pretty much. That's really the biggest problem with Fighter-base gish (with more Fighter instead of Wizard); you miss out on the highest level buffs for just couple of points of BAB.


4:I've got a lot of spells known to fill out here as well. I'll look for the Swiftblade and Abj Champ handbooks later, that should be enough to fill me up.

Yeah, just pick the gishy stuff: Things that enhance hitting, things that make you hit harder, things that enable reaching the opponent easily (e.g. Teleports), things that empower Dispels and mayhap one-two of the best offensive spells (such as Enervation and Glitterdust) for when they're convenient.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-20, 05:02 PM
Sorta impressed. First posted this at the end of my old thread on saturday night, it's now monday evening and I've gotten exactly 1 response, but over a 100 views.


I'd say that would be beyond RAW to answer if not for a small detail; I'd personally say since it changes one bonus type to another instead of granting a bonus, there would be no extra bonus. This is, however, irrelevant since Abjurant Armor states it only applies to Armor- and Shield-bonuses granted by abjurations instead of any AC bonus types.

Yeah, would help I guess if I fully read an entry on my PrC. Thanks.



Things like Arcane Disciple [CDiv], Wyrm Wizard [DM], Recaster [RoE], etc. allow for learning divine spells as a Wizard. There's usually a means to get what you want. Though there's also the simple option of acquiring Lesser Restoration (Wand, Disciple, whatever) to counteract the Sanctified cost of Greater Luminous Armor (it still has the highest singular AC bonus of any spell, I recall).

Problem I saw with just going for the wand (which works great) seemed to be 2fold. 1)Some of the other party members would've expected me to buy it, then use it for the entire party. I don't mind helping out, but expecting my own resources to automatically go towards everyone else kind of irks me. 2)The DM despite owning BoED didn't place it on the allowed booklist, 3)And I figure he'd get bent out of shape regarding me spending resources to counteract a disadvantage (similar to an old thread about the worst DM ever)
Checked arcane disciple, in this case, won't be an option for the spells I was thinking of. No desire to take Cyric, or Shar as my deities. (Campaign is for Good people anyway)


Pretty much. That's really the biggest problem with Fighter-base gish (with more Fighter instead of Wizard); you miss out on the highest level buffs for just couple of points of BAB.
Are there any other easy entry Gish PrC's that would give me 8/8 casting, and at least 2/3 BAB (end with level 14casting, and a 17 BAB)? Knight Phantom is one I looked at, but it loses a CL on first level. And requires an extra feat for entry.
It looks like dropping 2 levels in fighter and replacing with wizard (thus delaying a few feats), would grant me an extra spell level, but actually hurt my final Caster Level.

Eldariel
2010-09-20, 07:00 PM
Standard Gish build:
Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/e.g. Sacred Exorcist 8. 16 BAB, CL 18.

Alternatively:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword+Abjurant Champion 6/Eldritch Knight ->

You could also cut out the Fighter-level if you use Militia or such. These end up with 17 BAB and 18 CL. Cutting the Fighter-level gets you 17 BAB and 19 CL.


Losing CL here or there is no problem thanks to Practiced Spellcaster; you still get CL 20 spells in the end. It's an extra feat, but for 17-18 CL, you'll generally want it anyways.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-20, 07:18 PM
Standard Gish build:
Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/e.g. Sacred Exorcist 8. 16 BAB, CL 18.


Which book is sacred exorcist in?
Also, do you think that would actually work with the ubercharger base I was starting from? (Assuming no flaws)

Eldariel
2010-09-20, 09:31 PM
Which book is sacred exorcist in?
Also, do you think that would actually work with the ubercharger base I was starting from? (Assuming no flaws)

Sacred Exorcist is Complete Divine. And at least using Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), getting all the feats is no problem. Fighter 6 only gives you two feats over Fighter 2 anyways.

Tho optimally you'd just want Persistent Divine Power anyways and then you don't even need gishy PrCs. BUt not going there.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-20, 10:32 PM
Martial wizard, that's the one that swaps out wizard bonus feats for fighter ones, right?

Well yeah, DMM: Persist makes the cleric a better an even better fighter than the fighter. A wizard with turning, a feat should get me the cleric spells that turn me into a better fighter... da**it!
Yeah, I think the SE will make a more interesting character than either the EK or Knight Phantom. And it makes me a sorta paladin too.
I'd have to wait until a bit later with my build, but yours let it happen pretty fast. Then a feat for war domain spells as arcane (divine power), and another for strength domain as arcane (righteous might). An extra turning if dm doesn't allow nightsticks... Never would have thought of going to Complete divine for a martial/arcane character. I'd have thought everything in there was martial/divine.

Eldariel
2010-09-20, 11:03 PM
Meh, easiest way to persist 'em is just to use Incantatrix or Halruaan Elder or any of the arcane metamagic cheater PrCs. Though that loses BAB. But since it leads to persistent Divine Power, who cares?

herrhauptmann
2010-09-20, 11:31 PM
If I had gotten these characters into the game like I expected, the DM would hate you.
Even if I did my best to hold back until it was really necessary (5 hitpoints each, facing a balor or something), the DM would still have hated you.
:D
Halruan elder? That does metamagic cheating? I'll have to save that for later (we weren't a faerun campaign this time)