[4e] Orbizard

[mobdrazhar]

Hi there Playground,

I was hoping you could critique my character for me:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Zakiti, level 11
Shardmind, Wizard, Shard Disciple
Build: Control Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
Shardmind: Perception Bonus
Background: Thay (Thay Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 16, Dex 17, Int 23, Wis 22, Cha 17.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 15, Dex 16, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 16.


AC: 24 Fort: 19 Reflex: 22 Will: 24
HP: 73 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +18, Religion +16, Nature +16, Dungeoneering +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Endurance +17, Heal +13, History +13, Insight +13, Intimidate +10, Perception +15, Stealth +10, Streetwise +10, Thievery +10, Athletics +8

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Expanded Spellbook
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 6: Jack of All Trades
Level 8: Superior Implement Training (Accurate orb)
Level 10: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 11: Improved Orb of Imposition

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Cloud of Daggers
Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Wizard encounter 1: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation
Wizard daily 1: Sleep
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Phantom Chasm
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Grease
Wizard utility 2: Expeditious Retreat
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Float
Wizard encounter 3: Maze of Mirrors
Wizard daily 5: Glitterdust
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Stinking Cloud
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Bigby's Icy Grasp
Wizard utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Wall of Fog
Wizard encounter 7: Twist of Space
Wizard daily 9: Ice Storm
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Taunting Phantoms
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Wall of Fire
Wizard utility 10: Blur
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Mass Resistance

ITEMS
Spellbook, Accurate orb of Ultimate Imposition +1, Accurate orb of Mental Constitution +1, Cloak of Distortion +1, Repulsion Leather Armor +1, Floating Lantern (heroic tier), Climber's Kit, Circlet of Second Chances (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier), Feyleaf Sandals (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Make Whole, Purify Water, Tenser's Floating Disk, Water Walk, Knock, Phantom Steed, Raise Dead
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Stats were rolled btw

Edit: Spoilered for length

[Nu]

Expanded Spellbook seems like a wasted feat slot to me (unless you happen to know about encounters ahead of time very, very often). I'd pick up Spell Focus instead, you can't argue with a flat -2 penalty to saves (you should be able to retrain into it at level 11). Though you will also need Versatile Expertise (Orb/Staff). What books are allowed? Can you use Dragon Magazine? I'd recommend Winged Horde or something over Cloud of Daggers myself, if it's permitted.

Maybe consider Stinking Cloud or Visions of Avarice instead of Glitterdust at level 5. Is there a reason you only have +1 items at level 11? You should be able to have +2 for most of those, I would imagine. Your attack bonus is going to start falling behind the curve without Versatile Expertise and a +2 orb.

I think that's a good starting point.

[mobdrazhar]

I have access to anything in char builder. The only limitations are not Warforged, Genasi or MM races

[Kurald Galain]

I was hoping you could critique my character for me:
Certainly. Wizards are my specialty :)

Your stat array is way above standard point buy values, so well done rolling that!

Your feats,

The one glaring omission is Enlarge Spell. This is the best wizard feat ever, as it triples the area of your at-will and encounter powers.
Expanded Spellbook is a waste of a feat. If you want more spells in your book, grab some cheap Tome items.
Multiclass feats are very good; I'd suggest you take one of your choice.
Familiars are fun.
Consider the Second Implement paragon feat; tome of readiness is quite nice, and so is Wand of Accuracy.
Jack of all trades is not as good as it seems: generally it's better to improve the skills you're already good at, than to equalize your subpar skills which you probably won't use anyway.
Armor Prof Leather is overrated. You should have good defenses and not be on the frontline much, so most of the attacks you take won't be on AC anyway.
Improved Orb of Imposition doesn't do much, there are much better feats such as Spell Focus.


Your powers,

Cloud of daggers isn't all that great; any area effect at-will would be better (spending your standard action to autokill one minion is kind of a waste). Then again, you'll probably be using Thunderwave most of the time, anyway.
Maze of Mirrors looks good on paper, but in play it's pretty bad: in effect, you spend your standard action to give one or two enemies a 15-20% chance to waste his standard action. This is not a good tradeoff. Both Color Spray and Fire Shroud are so much better, this is not even a contest.
Ice Storm isn't so great. You're a control wizard, so consider Visions of Ruin. Wall of Fire, however, is excellent.
Blur is decent, but Illusory Wall is much better in terms of control


Your items

Why do you carry a floating lantern if you have the Light cantrip?
I would recommend getting some armor or cloak that gives resistances.
Why don't you have a +3 implement by now?


Finally, you don't seem to have a paragon path yet.

[mobdrazhar]

Certainly. Wizards are my specialty :)

Your stat array is way above standard point buy values, so well done rolling that!


that's why i let my gf roll my stats for me... her dice love her



Your feats,

The one glaring omission is Enlarge Spell. This is the best wizard feat ever, as it triples the area of your at-will and encounter powers.
Expanded Spellbook is a waste of a feat. If you want more spells in your book, grab some cheap Tome items.
Multiclass feats are very good; I'd suggest you take one of your choice.
Familiars are fun.
Consider the Second Implement paragon feat; tome of readiness is quite nice, and so is Wand of Accuracy.
Jack of all trades is not as good as it seems: generally it's better to improve the skills you're already good at, than to equalize your subpar skills which you probably won't use anyway.
Armor Prof Leather is overrated. You should have good defenses and not be on the frontline much, so most of the attacks you take won't be on AC anyway.
Improved Orb of Imposition doesn't do much, there are much better feats such as Spell Focus.



will look at doing feat swaps



Your powers,

Cloud of daggers isn't all that great; any area effect at-will would be better (spending your standard action to autokill one minion is kind of a waste). Then again, you'll probably be using Thunderwave most of the time, anyway.
Maze of Mirrors looks good on paper, but in play it's pretty bad: in effect, you spend your standard action to give one or two enemies a 15-20% chance to waste his standard action. This is not a good tradeoff. Both Color Spray and Fire Shroud are so much better, this is not even a contest.
Ice Storm isn't so great. You're a control wizard, so consider Visions of Ruin. Wall of Fire, however, is excellent.
Blur is decent, but Illusory Wall is much better in terms of control





Your items

Why do you carry a floating lantern if you have the Light cantrip?
I would recommend getting some armor or cloak that gives resistances.
Why don't you have a +3 implement by now?



I took a floating lantern because i completely forgot about my cantrips *headdesk*



Finally, you don't seem to have a paragon path yet.

I took Shard Disciple as my Paragon Path... it is in there.

Thank you loads for you help... will post an updated one shortly for my critique.

Edit: The reason i don't have so high a level items is because this is a starting char and i'm getting base WBL starting gold

[mobdrazhar]

Here is the updated Char sheet... thanks in advance for the help!

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Zakiti, level 11
Shardmind, Wizard, Shard Disciple
Build: Control Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Unarmed)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Orb)
Shardmind: Perception Bonus
Background: Thay (Thay Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 16, Dex 17, Int 23, Wis 22, Cha 17.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 15, Dex 16, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 16.


AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 22 Will: 24
HP: 73 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +18, Religion +16, Nature +16, Dungeoneering +16, Heal +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +10, History +11, Insight +11, Intimidate +8, Perception +13, Stealth +8, Streetwise +8, Thievery +8, Athletics +6

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 6: Enlarge Spell
Level 8: Superior Implement Training (Accurate orb)
Level 10: Divine Healer
Level 11: Spell Focus

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Wizard at-will 1: Magic Missile
Wizard encounter 1: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation
Wizard daily 1: Sleep
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Grease
Wizard utility 2: Expeditious Retreat
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Float
Wizard encounter 3: Color Spray
Wizard daily 5: Stinking Cloud
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Wall of Fog
Wizard encounter 7: Twist of Space
Wizard daily 9: Visions of Ruin
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Wall of Fire
Wizard utility 10: Illusory Wall
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Mass Resistance

ITEMS
Spellbook, Cloak of Distortion +1, Climber's Kit, Accurate orb of Ultimate Imposition +2, Magic Accurate orb +1, Magic Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1
RITUALS
Make Whole, Purify Water, Tenser's Floating Disk, Water Walk, Knock, Phantom Steed, Raise Dead
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[Mando Knight]

...
...
...Did anyone tell you how you were supposed to get items for high-level characters? As a Paragon character, you should have level 10, 11, and 12 items and gold equal to the value of a 10th level item to spend on further magic equipment, in addition to as much mundane stuff as your DM will let you get away with.

Also, I highly recommend picking a wand or tome as your off-hand implement. They tend to carry extra powers or decent rider effects for existing powers... which is a whole lot more useful than a plain old Magic Orb (which doesn't need to be Accurate, since its attack bonus doesn't apply to attacks made with the other Orb...).

[BobTheDog]

Just out of curiosity, what was the rolling method? Standard (roll 6 times, 4d6 remove lowest, distribute as you want) or something more generous?

[Kurald Galain]

Also, I highly recommend picking a wand or tome as your off-hand implement. They tend to carry extra powers or decent rider effects for existing powers...

Ah, it's time to shamelessly plug the guide in my sig again :smallbiggrin: Yes, Mando is correct, you can get a lot of mileage out of off-hand items. Master Wand of Thunderwave is a good example.

[Jaidu]

A few thoughts:

-I agree with Nu regarding Winged Horde. It's ally friendly, works with Enlarge Spell, and causes enemies to be unable to make opportunity attacks. Aside from the obvious benefit of letting melee characters position themselves easily, it works with Psychic Lock (which is often worth a feat, considering how often imposers and illusionists overlap), and by RAW, a creature cannot grab or flank if it cannot make opportunity attacks (PHB.. I would give a page number but I don't have the book with me).

-A cheap item to consider is a +1 Orb of Nimble Thoughts. It adds your Int modifier to your initiative bonus, which is pretty significant. You can start a fight with it, then swap it after you roll initiative, though it has an encounter power that lets you shift a bit that is helpful as well. This item could possibly reduce the usefulness of Improved Initiative and Expeditious Retreat, freeing up a feat (I would suggest Versatile Expertise) and a power choice (Shield is always a decent option)

-If you drop Maze of Mirrors at level 3, consider picking up Color Spray. As a blast 5 it can be a bit unwieldy, but in the right situation it can daze a ton of enemies.

-I usually play an Illusionist, so I don't know too much about lengthening those save ends effects. I remember a tattoo that was helpful with that.. Curse Eye, I think? I can't recall.

[mobdrazhar]

...
...
...Did anyone tell you how you were supposed to get items for high-level characters? As a Paragon character, you should have level 10, 11, and 12 items and gold equal to the value of a 10th level item to spend on further magic equipment, in addition to as much mundane stuff as your DM will let you get away with.

Also, I highly recommend picking a wand or tome as your off-hand implement. They tend to carry extra powers or decent rider effects for existing powers... which is a whole lot more useful than a plain old Magic Orb (which doesn't need to be Accurate, since its attack bonus doesn't apply to attacks made with the other Orb...).

In that case i should have a bit more than that... it will be fixed as soon I get home =S my bad. will have a look into the wands and tomes as well. will probably get +3 orb and wand/tome then.


Just out of curiosity, what was the rolling method? Standard (roll 6 times, 4d6 remove lowest, distribute as you want) or something more generous?
Standard 4d6 drop the lowest and assign as wished

[BobTheDog]

Standard 4d6 drop the lowest and assign as wished

Ehh, you misquoted me, back there... :smallconfused:

Anyway, only time I got stats like those was using a houseruled scheme (roll-4d6-drop-the-lowest 7 times, the rolls only start counting when you get a 15 or higher, then remove the lowest of the 7 rolls from the bunch). Of course I once got a character with 15 15 15 15 14 13, which I promptly decided was going to be a monk. :smallbiggrin:

I know it's kinda late for that now (seeing as you have your build pretty much finished and the playground is helping you with the final touches), but did you decide on class before rolling? I would most definitely consider a "MADder" class for that roll.

[mobdrazhar]

*headdesk* sorry about the mis-quote... am still trying to wake up at work with lack of caffine. Will fix now

I decided on the class before hand and then rolled. I had never played a controller before (always played defenders) and so wanted to try one in the form of a wizard

[Surrealistik]

Your feats,

* The one glaring omission is Enlarge Spell. This is the best wizard feat ever, as it triples the area of your at-will and encounter powers.
* Expanded Spellbook is a waste of a feat. If you want more spells in your book, grab some cheap Tome items.
* Multiclass feats are very good; I'd suggest you take one of your choice.
* Familiars are fun.
* Consider the Second Implement paragon feat; tome of readiness is quite nice, and so is Wand of Accuracy.
* Jack of all trades is not as good as it seems: generally it's better to improve the skills you're already good at, than to equalize your subpar skills which you probably won't use anyway.
* Armor Prof Leather is overrated. You should have good defenses and not be on the frontline much, so most of the attacks you take won't be on AC anyway.
* Improved Orb of Imposition doesn't do much, there are much better feats such as Spell Focus.


Your powers,

* Cloud of daggers isn't all that great; any area effect at-will would be better (spending your standard action to autokill one minion is kind of a waste). Then again, you'll probably be using Thunderwave most of the time, anyway.
* Maze of Mirrors looks good on paper, but in play it's pretty bad: in effect, you spend your standard action to give one or two enemies a 15-20% chance to waste his standard action. This is not a good tradeoff. Both Color Spray and Fire Shroud are so much better, this is not even a contest.
* Ice Storm isn't so great. You're a control wizard, so consider Visions of Ruin. Wall of Fire, however, is excellent.
* Blur is decent, but Illusory Wall is much better in terms of control


Your items

* Why do you carry a floating lantern if you have the Light cantrip?
* I would recommend getting some armor or cloak that gives resistances.
* Why don't you have a +3 implement by now?


Agree with this, barring his call out on Maze of Mirrors, and his assessment that you'll be using Thunderwave most of the time.

First of all, Maze of Mirrors is easily one of the best Wizard powers for its level. Why? Ranged 10, area burst 1, immobilize, and a -4 penalty to hit; that's not just a great chance of a wasted Standard Action, it's a great chance of a completely wasted turn for multiple enemies. It now even slows on a miss. Furthermore, MoM counts as an illusion power with respect to feats like Phantom Echos (highly recommend you specialize in Illusion powers as an Orbizard).

Color Spray is good on paper, and it remains good in practice, but less so than Maze of Mirrors, unless your defenders aren't doing their job, you don't have an Orb of Nimble Thoughts (this is a mandatory item), and your DM is out to spite you. Why it is inferior in practice is that you'll catch your allies in its party unfriendly AoE more often than not when you have a good opportunity to use this.

Fire Shroud is nice for party friendly, enemy only targeting as a CQC option, but it is damage only. Generally preferable for a fire blaster tiefling/genasi, and subpar for a control orientated Orbizard.


Second, Thunderwave is a solid power, but you can do better with Beguiling Strands (D&D essentials), Illusory Ambush or Phantasmal Assault (from D&D essentials). The problem with Thunderwave is essentially the same problem with Color Spray; you're usually out of the fray so the limited range is a downer, and when you do use it, you'll probably hit allies in its party unfriendly area of effect. If you really need a close quarters option, Beguiling Strands is party friendly, and has a larger AoE. I personally would focus on illusion powers/attack penalties and go with Illusory Ambush.

Winged Horde (Dragon Magazine 381) is mandatory. Party friendly, Area burst 1 within 10 squares that disables opportunity actions, can be used with the Enlarge Spell feat and utterly slaughters minions. Do want.



A critique of your other power choices:

With respect to level 1 dailies, Phantom Chasm, especially with the latest errata that makes it party friendly is an excellent choice. You are however missing Sleep, a mandatory choice for an Orbizard.

2nd level utility choices are bad. Shield and Mystical Debris are almost mandatory for this level, though Spectral Image can be excellent for the spellbook slot depending on your creativity and your DM.

5th level daily, Visions of Avarice is the obvious choice. Stinking Cloud and Web are close seconds. I prefer Cloud personally.

Wizard's Escape for an L6 Utility is a decent choice, Wall of Fog not so much. Spec Illusions and get Emerald Eye; it's a must have. Personally I would relegate Iron Cohort, Wizard's Escape or Levitate to my spell book (in roughly that order).

Get Visions of Ruin for your 9th level daily, and Face of Death for your spell book choice. Both of these are easily the best options at that level for an Orbizard.


As for feats, remember to pay your feat taxes:


Versatile Expertise (Staff, Orb): You need to maximize your attack bonus.
Superior Implement (Accurate Staff or Accurate/Crystal Orb): As above. Note that as an Orbizard save locker, you _will_ want to use the Cunning Staff and/or Orb of Mental Dominion to maximize saving throw penalties; you can trigger Orb of Imposition with your off-hand implement.
Enlarge Spell: Increasing the size of your burst/blast spells is too huge a benefit to pass up.
Spell Focus (Paragon): Applying a -2 penalty to all saving throws versus your wizard spells is too huge a benefit to pass up, particularly for an Orbizard controller.


Specializing in illusions and taking Phantom Echos is highly recommended.

Also, you will want to take the Phiarlan Phantasmist paragon path which requires the Mark of Shadow feat. Best PP in the business for save locking orbizards like you.


As for items:

Battle Harness or Flowform Armour are probably your top picks at this point.

You will want an Accurate/Crystal Orb of Mental Dominion and/or Cunning Staff for your primary implements. Orb of Nimble Thoughts is mandatory.

Amulet of Elegy is obviously a great choice for a save locker. Get a Cloak of Distortion otherwise.

[Kurald Galain]

First of all, Maze of Mirrors is easily one of the best Wizard powers for its level.
Whooo, no it's not. This is because to-hit penalties aren't nearly as big a deal as they seem.

The spell is burst one, and cannot enlarge. That means that targeting two enemies is going to be tricky, and more than two is nigh impossible unless your DM has serious problems with tactics. Then, you have to roll to hit, which is about a 70% chance most of the time. And then, you have a 20% chance of affecting your enemy's to hit roll, because that's what a -4 penalty is.

So you have a 2 x 70% x 20% = 28% chance of messing up an enemy. This is not good. For a minor action, this would be a decent pick. For a standard, not a chance.

Immobilizing is nice and all, but only if you do it before the enemy closes to melee, and only if the enemy doesn't have a ranged backup weapon (which most of them do). Besides, if you want to immobilize, then Icy Rays is much much better (because it's easier to target, and does damage).

Remember, you have to compare this against Color Spray (6x6 blast of radiant, the most common vulnerability, and dazing) and Fire Shroud (9x9 explosion that hits the entire room for ongoing damage) or even the L1 Grasping Shadows (which is an autohit slow if placed well). Even a pure damage spell like Shock Sphere is easily better than a 28% chance of hampering an enemy.


you're usually out of the fray so the limited range is a downer,
Except when the fray comes to you, of course. Which should happen often, if your DM plays reasonably well.

Beguiling Strands straight out of the book is better than Thunderwave, but Thunderwave has better synergy with e.g. Genasi, the Master Wand, or various thunder feats.



Winged Horde (Dragon Magazine 381) is mandatory.
Winged Horde was overrated, and got nerfed twice since then. Any area effect slaughters minions, that's useful but nothing special. Opportunity attacks are pretty rare in most games. Sure, it's a decent spell, but it's markedly less useful than Beguiling Strands or Thunderwave.



2nd level utility choices are bad. Shield and Mystical Debris are almost mandatory for this level,
Shield is a good spell, but hardly mandatory. Mystical Debris is easily ignored by most enemies in most combats, and should be avoided. Likewise, Emerald Eye does absolutely nothing 90% of the time. If you want to boost your to-hit chance, Wand of Accuracy will help you much more often.

[Surrealistik]

Whooo, no it's not. This is because to-hit penalties aren't nearly as big a deal as they seem.

The spell is burst one, and cannot enlarge. That means that targeting two enemies is going to be tricky, and more than two is nigh impossible unless your DM has serious problems with tactics. Then, you have to roll to hit, which is about a 70% chance most of the time. And then, you have a 20% chance of affecting your enemy's to hit roll, because that's what a -4 penalty is.

So you have a 2 x 70% x 20% = 28% chance of messing up an enemy. This is not good. For a minor action, this would be a decent pick. For a standard, not a chance.

Immobilizing is nice and all, but only if you do it before the enemy closes to melee, and only if the enemy doesn't have a ranged backup weapon (which most of them do). Besides, if you want to immobilize, then Icy Rays is much much better (because it's easier to target, and does damage).

Remember, you have to compare this against Color Spray (6x6 blast of radiant, the most common vulnerability, and dazing) and Fire Shroud (9x9 explosion that hits the entire room for ongoing damage) or even the L1 Grasping Shadows (which is an autohit slow if placed well). Even a pure damage spell like Shock Sphere is easily better than a 28% chance of hampering an enemy.

First of all, you are completely ignoring the multitarget capabilities of Maze of Mirrors; this a huge plus (you will rarely hit only one target) and is in part what makes it generally preferable to Icy Rays, besides its secondary effects. This is particularly relevant if your controller wizard has high initiative and can land attacks when the enemy is still bunched, as he should.

Second, you are ignoring its range and flexibility (which while hitting allies makes it decisively more party friendly than Color Spray; this is important).

Third, you clearly underestimate the power of immobilizing for a turn, particularly when you're running a high initiative controller (hello Orb of Nimble Thoughts, Battle Harness); not only do many, if not most melee (as in melee focused) monsters not have a ranged attack, but those that do have back up ranged attacks are on average less effective with them, hitting less accurately, doing less damage and effects or both.

Fourth, slow on a miss is also obviously a valuable property which you've handwaved/ignored.

Fifth, attack penalties often synergize nicely with teammates, particularly defenders who will be landing marks, other controllers who will also be dropping attack penalties, and leaders who will be buffing defenses.

Sixth, it's an illusion power; Phantom Echos synergy is great.



Except when the fray comes to you, of course. Which should happen often, if your DM plays reasonably well.

Between smart play, your defenders doing their job, and your own slowing/immobilizing effects, no, not so much. The DM basically has to spite you for CQC combat to be really common. There is also the fact that most of your CQC options (Beguiling Threads being a notable, at-will exception) are party unfriendly, which is a major issue that cannot be handwaved.



Beguiling Strands straight out of the book is better than Thunderwave, but Thunderwave has better synergy with e.g. Genasi, the Master Wand, or various thunder feats.

Thunderwave can be better, but requires substantial feat and racial support, some of which you won't get until paragon. However, no matter what you do, it will always be party unfriendly, which is a big minus.


Winged Horde was overrated, and got nerfed twice since then. Any area effect slaughters minions, that's useful but nothing special. Opportunity attacks are pretty rare in most games. Sure, it's a decent spell, but it's markedly less useful than Beguiling Strands or Thunderwave.

Except its an at-will ranged 10 area burst that can be Enlarged and is friendly targeting. Still essentially mandatory I'm afraid; yes you can make a go without it, but that is pretty clearly suboptimal unless, again, your DM is out to spite you.


Shield is a good spell, but hardly mandatory. Mystical Debris is easily ignored by most enemies in most combats, and should be avoided. Likewise, Emerald Eye does absolutely nothing 90% of the time. If you want to boost your to-hit chance, Wand of Accuracy will help you much more often.

Shield, especially post errata is mandatory for the level. There are no L2 wizard utility powers that really match up to it. Mystical Debris gives you something useful to do all the time with your Minor Actions and Move Actions, and coupled with slowing effects, forced movement, bonus movement, and/or choking terrain substantially helps you dictate the flow of the battle when used intelligently.

As for Emerald Eye, if you're speccing Illusion powers (as you generally should as an Orbizard), it is indispensable. Wand of Accuracy requires you to invest in a sub-par stat that you have no business touching as a Wizard (unless you're a blaster for Dual Implement Spellcaster). If you're going for a second implement as an Orbizard, Orb of Deception is the better choice. Further, as an Orbizard, you'll probably be using an Orb and a Cunning Staff anyways.

[cupkeyk]

Tome of Imposition's nerf makes it a mediocre option. Your primary sources of save penalties are spell focus, your PP (Phiarlan phantasmist or Entrancing Mystic), and Persistent Poison and a couple of Items like Curse Eye Tattoo and Talisman of Terror; assuming you pick powers around or find ways of adding keywords.

[Surrealistik]

To the contrary, Orb of Imposition is still the go-to for save-lockers, because it means your target is basically guaranteed to fail his second saving throw, whether it's a regular mook or a solo.

Talisman of Terror is also a great item, particularly when used in conjunction with Face of Death and Visions of Ruin.

Another mandatory save destroyer along with the Orb of Mental Dominion, Cunning Staff and Curse Eye Tattoo is the Orb of Fickle Fate.

[mobdrazhar]

what is your thoughts on Precise Accurate Wand of Color Spray +2 in off-hand and Cystal Orb of Mental Domination +3 in main hand?

[Surrealistik]

To be honest, don't bother with wands; you don't want to invest in Dexterity at all, and their built in powers just take up daily item uses you could expend on things like Orb of Mental Dominion and Orb of Fickle Fate (you can only use two daily item powers at Paragon).

Accurate Cunning Staff and Accurate Orb of Mental Dominion should be your go-to implements. Start your battles holding Orb of Nimble Thoughts in your off-hand though for an Initiative bonus = to your Intelligence modifier. Its encounter power that allows you to shift a # of squares equal to your Int mod as a move action is also very sweet.

[Meta]

It looks good as is, but figure I'll throw a radical suggestion out there.

hybridizing avenger would make you tougher and you wouldn't lose much in terms of your stunlock that you couldn't hybrid talent back for. Plus there's some support for a controller-y avenger (a minus 2 to saves feat jumps to mind) and you basically double your power selection.

I haven't kept up with wizard changes but if they have a non magic missile RBA, CustServ ruled with a feat you can get oath rerolls on that power as well. If there arent any other wiz RBAs just ignore this last part, it's still def worth considering IMO

[Kurald Galain]

Tome of Imposition's nerf makes it a mediocre option.
Assuming you mean Orb of Imposition, there are two things that make it worthwhile. First, the Sleep spell (and its L9 variation), because one failed save means the monster is dead before a second save becomes relevant. Second, the Orb of Heightened Imposition is one of the most powerful items in the game. That said, outside of these two, it is indeed fairly lacklustre.


what is your thoughts on Precise Accurate Wand of Color Spray +2 in off-hand and Cystal Orb of Mental Domination +3 in main hand?
That Implement Expertise doesn't work on both, unfortunately. However, you did pick a very strong wand and a very strong orb.


To be honest, don't bother with wands; you don't want to invest in Dexterity at all, and their built in powers just take up daily item uses you could expend on things like Orb of Mental Dominion and Orb of Fickle Fate (you can only use two daily item powers at Paragon).
Two plus one per milestone, of course, plus there's implements with worthwhile encounter powers or static properties.

With a dexterity as low as 14 (easily obtainable on e.g. an Eladrin, one of the most powerful wizard races), Wand of Accuracy is probably the most powerful implement mastery in the books. That makes it a worthwhile strategy to use a cheap vanilla Magic Wand +X as your primary implement, and use low-level implements in your off-hand for the daily powers.

Also, a few Master Wands are a worthwhile purchase for any wizard, and there are a few (just a few) Bard and Warlock utilities that are useful in wand form.



hybridizing avenger would make you tougher and you wouldn't lose much in terms of your stunlock that you couldn't hybrid talent back for.
I would not recommend this. You'll lose on a feat or two, on the excellent Implement Mastery feature, and on four wizard powers (one each of will, encounter, daily, utility). Wizard powers are among the strongest in the books.

[HMS Invincible]

Name the good bard and warlock powers on wands.

[Mando Knight]

To be honest, don't bother with wands; you don't want to invest in Dexterity at all, and their built in powers just take up daily item uses you could expend on things like Orb of Mental Dominion and Orb of Fickle Fate (you can only use two daily item powers at Paragon).

This is why you use a Master's Wand of At-Will X. Encounter power rather than daily, and with a property linked to the at-will. If you don't have the Wand of Accuracy feature, then you don't need to pump Dexterity for the Wand, since you don't have access to its implement mastery bonus anyway.

[Meta]

Assuming you mean Orb of Imposition, there are two things that make it worthwhile. First, the Sleep spell (and its L9 variation), because one failed save means the monster is dead before a second save becomes relevant. Second, the Orb of Heightened Imposition is one of the most powerful items in the game. That said, outside of these two, it is indeed fairly lacklustre.


That Implement Expertise doesn't work on both, unfortunately. However, you did pick a very strong wand and a very strong orb.


Two plus one per milestone, of course, plus there's implements with worthwhile encounter powers or static properties.

With a dexterity as low as 14 (easily obtainable on e.g. an Eladrin, one of the most powerful wizard races), Wand of Accuracy is probably the most powerful implement mastery in the books. That makes it a worthwhile strategy to use a cheap vanilla Magic Wand +X as your primary implement, and use low-level implements in your off-hand for the daily powers.

Also, a few Master Wands are a worthwhile purchase for any wizard, and there are a few (just a few) Bard and Warlock utilities that are useful in wand form.


I would not recommend this. You'll lose on a feat or two, on the excellent Implement Mastery feature, and on four wizard powers (one each of will, encounter, daily, utility). Wizard powers are among the strongest in the books.

You're trading the fourth wizard power you plan on taking for the strongest avenger power they'd have if you so desire.

Spark of Hatred is fantastic for instance. Minor action dominate once an encounter? Yes plz.

You can take the implement mastery with a feat.

Fist of Heaven alone is a fair reason to hybridize. its spell focus twice.

edit: typo

[Kurald Galain]

Name the good bard and warlock powers on wands.
Devil's Trade and Fey Switch come to mind.


You're trading the fourth wizard power you plan on taking for the strongest avenger power they'd have if you so desire.
On level 27, perhaps. While you're level 6, though, instead of having eight wizard powers, you must take four wizard powers and four avenger ones (plus spellbook, of course). I'll take those four extra wizard powers any day - Avengers have nothing that can match Sleep, Stinking Cloud, Wizard's Escape, or Color Spray.

If you want one epic feat and one level-27 power, I'd say you're better off spending two feats on "Avenger multiclass" and "Encounter power swap". Oh, and wizards get Steal Time at 27 :smallcool:


This is why you use a Master's Wand of At-Will X. Encounter power rather than daily, and with a property linked to the at-will.
This, too. Who needs a human bonus at-will when you can have half a dozen Master Wands?

[Meta]

Devil's Trade and Fey Switch come to mind.


On level 27, perhaps. While you're level 6, though, instead of having eight wizard powers, you must take four wizard powers and four avenger ones (plus spellbook, of course). I'll take those four extra wizard powers any day - Avengers have nothing that can match Sleep, Stinking Cloud, Wizard's Escape, or Color Spray.

If you want one epic feat and one level-27 power, I'd say you're better off spending two feats on "Avenger multiclass" and "Encounter power swap". Oh, and wizards get Steal Time at 27 :smallcool:

So level 6 huh. going for the jugular. its the single best level to prove your point. I can roll with that:

At-Wills
Winged Horde
Thunderwave
Bond of Censure (Avenging Shackles if getting Distant Vengeance, and you should)

Encounters:
Fury's Advance is less controllery than color spray no doubt, but who doesn't love minor action attacks? It's not like you're trading color spray for fury's advance, cuz on the turn you use fury's you can also use thunderwave again :smallcool:

Dailies:
Orbizards wished they had Light of Truth. Penalty to all saves equal to the number of allies adjacent to the target? This is a non-choice :smallcool:

Utilities: Avenger's have resonant escape if that's your thing. Oath of the relentless hunter is RP gold. Or loyal sanction if you like watching the party striker nova and kill elites. or you could take arcane mutterings and cheat the system :smallcool:

And there are definitely times id rather have spark of hatred over steal time. :smallcool:

Edit: thats such an obnoxious smiley face haha

[Kurald Galain]

So level 6 huh. going for the jugular. its the single best level to prove your point.
Sure. But far more campaigns run at level 6 at level 27. And it applies at any level that handing in half your wizard powers for avenger powers doesn't help.

If you want control, you should really stick to wizard powers because the 'venger isn't even a controller. If you want damage, however, then the problem is that the primary wizard damage boosters (e.g. Elemental Empowerment, Destructive Wizardry, or Enlarge Spell) don't apply to avenger powers.


At-Wills
That's three. You only get two unless you assume the hybrid is only worth playing if your race is human.


Fury's Advance is less controllery than color spray no doubt, but who doesn't love minor action attacks?
The thing is that a minor action attack gives you one extra target - whereas a 6x6 area effect usually gives you more extra targets than that.

Fury's Advance + Thunderwave is not all that much better than simply Thunderwave by itself - and Color Spray is often better than that.



Orbizards wished they had Light of Truth. Penalty to all saves equal to the number of allies adjacent to the target? This is a non-choice
Let's see. This requires a standard action to give one target per day a penalty to saving throws. However, as a free action (Orb of Impenetrable Escape) I can make an enemy auto-fail his saving throw.

Also, this power requires wisdom rather than int, a divine implement rather than an arcane (and Fury's Advance is a weapon power), and melee range (most wizards are long-range characters). It's indeed a non-choice, but in the opposite direction than you think.


or you could take arcane mutterings and cheat the system :smallcool:
Um, yeah. That's a skill power, so open to any class. It's a good power, but you don't need to hybrid for that.

[mobdrazhar]

That Implement Expertise doesn't work on both, unfortunately. However, you did pick a very strong wand and a very strong orb.


how come Implement Expertise doesn't work on both? I was always under the assumption that it did. Would you recommend just dropping the Accurate off the wand and leaving the Orb Crystal? or making the Orb accurate?


It looks good as is, but figure I'll throw a radical suggestion out there.

hybridizing avenger would make you tougher and you wouldn't lose much in terms of your stunlock that you couldn't hybrid talent back for. Plus there's some support for a controller-y avenger (a minus 2 to saves feat jumps to mind) and you basically double your power selection.

I haven't kept up with wizard changes but if they have a non magic missile RBA, CustServ ruled with a feat you can get oath rerolls on that power as well. If there arent any other wiz RBAs just ignore this last part, it's still def worth considering IMO

although i could Hybrid i really don't like hybrids as it forces choices. will have a think about it though with Avenger but probably not. Thanks though

[Kurald Galain]

how come Implement Expertise doesn't work on both?
Because it requires that you pick a type of implement.

I just realized that you're probably talking about Superior Implement Training instead. But the same applies here: you must pick a type, so you can't use both an Accurate implement and a Crystal implement with the same feat.


Would you recommend just dropping the Accurate off the wand and leaving the Orb Crystal? or making the Orb accurate?
Always go for your primary implement (which would be the +3 orb). Crystal is better than Accurate if most of your attacks are against Will defense.


will have a think about it though with Avenger but probably not.
If you want a wizard hybrid, good choices are Artificer, Psion, Swordmage, and (surprisingly) Warlord. Particularly Psion. Avenger doesn't combine well with wizard, but is a good hybrid choice for certain other melee classes.

[mobdrazhar]

Always go for your primary implement (which would be the +3 orb). Crystal is better than Accurate if most of your attacks are against Will defense.

would it be worth taking the second feat to be able to use the Accurate wand? or not bother and just use it as a normal wand?


If you want a wizard hybrid, good choices are Artificer, Psion, Swordmage, and (surprisingly) Warlord. Particularly Psion. Avenger doesn't combine well with wizard, but is a good hybrid choice for certain other melee classes.

As i said i most likely won't be hybridising as I don't really like it.

[Kurald Galain]

would it be worth taking the second feat to be able to use the Accurate wand? or not bother and just use it as a normal wand?
Up to you, but personally I wouldn't:

You have one primary implement through which you'll cast almost all your spells, almost all the time. This is worth spending feats on.

You can carry any number of secondary implements, most of which will be lower level, which are best used for the daily power, or for the property. Since you'll only very rarely make attacks through these, they are not worth spending a feat on.

Besides, why not take Color Spray as your level-3 power and cast it through your orb? Then wield something else in your off-hand, like a Staff of the Warmage, or an Orb of Inevitable Continuance, and surprise your DM!

[mobdrazhar]

Up to you, but personally I wouldn't:

You have one primary implement through which you'll cast almost all your spells, almost all the time. This is worth spending feats on.

You can carry any number of secondary implements, most of which will be lower level, which are best used for the daily power, or for the property. Since you'll only very rarely make attacks through these, they are not worth spending a feat on.

Besides, why not take Color Spray as your level-3 power and cast it through your orb? Then wield something else in your off-hand, like a Staff of the Warmage, or an Orb of Inevitable Continuance, and surprise your DM!

will have a look at those items when i get home :smallbiggrin:

Thank ye good sir!

[Surrealistik]

With a dexterity as low as 14 (easily obtainable on e.g. an Eladrin, one of the most powerful wizard races), Wand of Accuracy is probably the most powerful implement mastery in the books. That makes it a worthwhile strategy to use a cheap vanilla Magic Wand +X as your primary implement, and use low-level implements in your off-hand for the daily powers.

Completely and totally disagree. Orb of Imposition essentially amounts to an auto-failed save once per encounter, versus a minor accuracy bonus once per encounter. The autofailed save is obviously superior.

Second, there are many choices superior to the Eladrin as far as Wizard races go: the Shardmind (general), Deva (general), Githzerai (general), Human (general), Tiefling (secondary enhancement bonus, save lockers, blasters), Genasi (blasters) and Gnome (illusionists) are clearly the go-tos. They're a strong race for Wizards, but at the same time you're almost always better off playing something else.


Assuming you mean Orb of Imposition, there are two things that make it worthwhile. First, the Sleep spell (and its L9 variation), because one failed save means the monster is dead before a second save becomes relevant. Second, the Orb of Heightened Imposition is one of the most powerful items in the game. That said, outside of these two, it is indeed fairly lacklustre.


Orb of Imposition is essentially an auto-fail on any save once per encounter after factoring in other saving throw penalties; this is incredibly powerful, so its scope and appeal is not in any way limited to the Sleep spell and the Orb of Heightened Imposition (though it certainly works well with both). In reality, you'll ultimately be using it to guarantee a failure on the second save due to the slew of items that penalize the first (where its employment would be overkill).


Also, a few Master Wands are a worthwhile purchase for any wizard, and there are a few (just a few) Bard and Warlock utilities that are useful in wand form.


Disagree, you almost always have something better to spend your gold on as a save-locker.


This is why you use a Master's Wand of At-Will X. Encounter power rather than daily, and with a property linked to the at-will. If you don't have the Wand of Accuracy feature, then you don't need to pump Dexterity for the Wand, since you don't have access to its implement mastery bonus anyway.

See above. There is almost always something I'd rather purchase with the gold, unless you've got plenty to spare. Also, yes clearly if you don't take the Wand of Accuracy feature (and you shouldn't as a save locker), you don't need to pump Dex. That said, if you do have the gold to spare, sure, there are a couple of utility at-wills that might be nice to have, but in summary, they're usually not worth the inconvenience of switching implements back and forth, and giving up typically a more powerful attack of your own.


will have a look at those items when i get home

Thank ye good sir!


Orb of Inevitable Continuance and Staff of the Warmage are both good for secondary implements, but you've honestly got better options. Orb of Fickle Fate and Orb of Nimble Thoughts immediately come to mind. If you can afford them as secondary options though after purchasing these mandatory options, go right ahead.

Also don't take Colour Spray. I think my arguments are pretty clear on Maze of Mirrors being better overall; again, CS is best on paper, but MoM is best in practice, particularly if you're focusing on illusion powers, taking Phantom Echos, and opting for the Phiarlan Phantasmist Paragon Path (very highly recommended for a savelocker).

[Meta]

Sure. But far more campaigns run at level 6 at level 27. And it applies at any level that handing in half your wizard powers for avenger powers doesn't help.

Even more happen at lvl 1. You can take no avenger powers at that point if you choose.
If you want control, you should really stick to wizard powers because the 'venger isn't even a controller. If you want damage, however, then the problem is that the primary wizard damage boosters (e.g. Elemental Empowerment, Destructive Wizardry, or Enlarge Spell) don't apply to avenger powers.

is secondary role controller and the charop boards you put stock in agree that the controller avenger build is perfectly legit. They have the support for it.

That's three. You only get two unless you assume the hybrid is only worth playing if your race is human.

Humans make very good (perhaps the best) wizards. Remove one at-will if you don't wish to play one.

The thing is that a minor action attack gives you one extra target - whereas a 6x6 area effect usually gives you more extra targets than that.

Bursts don't help against solos. Pretty common scenario: burst to hit the soldier and kill his minions. Fury's advance to lay on some more damage. It makes wizards something they strive to be: more versatile

Fury's Advance + Thunderwave is not all that much better than simply Thunderwave by itself - and Color Spray is often better than that.

So don't take fury's advance. I can think of times I would much rather have fury's and even just another at-will. Different strokes for different folks

Let's see. This requires a standard action to give one target per day a penalty to saving throws. However, as a free action (Orb of Impenetrable Escape) I can make an enemy auto-fail his saving throw.

then take them both? If you can't find use for an effect that reduces all saving throws for an encounter or at least a few turns I cant help :/

Also, this power requires wisdom rather than int, a divine implement rather than an arcane (and Fury's Advance is a weapon power), and melee range (most wizards are long-range characters). It's indeed a non-choice, but in the opposite direction than you think.

Its also extremely accurate. And you are more durable than most wizards. It's a fantastic power for surround and pound on an enemy. Orbizards will have a high wis. I believe Essentials is simplifying implements. If not There's also an implement that can be used for divine and arcane if wished

Well I gave you an extremely useful option and a way to not take an avenger utility that you seem to dislike

Um, yeah. That's a skill power, so open to any class. It's a good power, but you don't need to hybrid for that.

Responses are bolded

[Kurald Galain]

these mandatory options,
http://local-static1.forum-files.fobby.net/forum_attachments/0020/3336/You_keep_using_that_word_large.jpg

Look, there are other character builds than your build, and there are other ways of playing a character class than the way you do it. In fact, the wizard is one of the most versatile classes in 4E, with one of the biggest lists of powers, feats, and items available to it. That means that anything you claim is "mandatory" easily has four or five alternatives to it.

And ironically, many of the suggestions you claim are "mandatory" aren't nearly as good as you think they are. For instance,


Orb of Imposition essentially amounts to an auto-failed save once per encounter, versus a minor accuracy bonus once per encounter.
Incorrect. (1) Orb of imposition is not an autofail, it's an -3 or -4 penalty. (2) How many save-ends spells do you have, really? (3) There's so much save-reducing gear that a stunlocker doesn't actually need OoI. And (4) unless your attack roll hits it never matters what the saving throws are.

You're looking at a theoretical situation. In practice, a to-hit bonus is going to be useful every single encounter, whereas a saving throw penalty won't be, simply because you cannot cast a stunlock spell every single encounter, and because to stunlock anything you need to hit it first.



Second, there are many choices superior to the Eladrin as far as Wizard races go:
Teleportation is easily one of the best encounter powers in the book. Other than that, yes, you're listing several good race choices for the wizard. Except that for some reason you're including humans, who are generally overrated. The difference between Eladrin, Gnome, and Genasi wizards is a matter of personal taste - it is simply false that one is objectively better.

Overall you're overestimating the effectiveness of a +2 to a secondary stat, and underestimating the effectiveness of a good racial encounter power. Again, the latter will come into play every single combat (and possibly in non-combat situations as well) and the former won't.


In reality, you'll ultimately be using it to guarantee a failure on the second save due to the slew of items that penalize the first (where its employment would be overkill).
That is incorrect: the best (save ends) spells are Sleep and Face of Death, and for both, the only save that matters is the first.


Disagree, you almost always have something better to spend your gold on as a save-locker.
I'm wondering what character level you're actually thinking of: on the one hand, you seem to assume that your wizard has lots of save-ends stunlocks, but there aren't all that many in heroic tier. On the other hand, you seem to think that buying a 680gp item is a big expense, but it should be pocket change for any character at level 9-10 or higher.


not worth the inconvenience of switching implements back and forth, and giving up typically a more powerful attack of your own.
You're assuming that switching is an "inconvenience", whereas in practice it is a free action. You're also assuming that using an utility is something you do instead of making a powerful attack, whereas in practice it is something you do in addition to making a powerful attack.



Orb of Inevitable Continuance and Staff of the Warmage are both good for secondary implements, but you've honestly got better options.
What, doubling the size or duration of any power of your choice is not good enough?

[Kurald Galain]

Even more happen at lvl 1. You can take no avenger powers at that point if you choose.
I'm not sure where you got that from; by RAW a hybrid must choose a power from both classes at level 1.


is secondary role controller and the charop boards you put stock in agree that the controller avenger build is perfectly legit. They have the support for it.
Just because two classes are both controllers doesn't make them a good hybrid.

And since you mentioned charop - neither their Wizard Guides nor their Avenger Guides list avenger|wizard as a good hybrid combination. Of course it can be fun to play, but there are only very few hybrid combinations that are more powerful than their base classes, and this isn't one of them. This is intentional design on WOTC's part: the point of hybrids was never to increase a character's power.



Humans make very good (perhaps the best) wizards.
In a word: no. Any good racial power (like gnome invis, elven reroll, teleportation, or dwarven healing) is going to help your character much more than taking another at-will.



Bursts don't help against solos.
Indeed they don't - but since your example uses a burst attack (Thunderwave), I'm not sure what you're getting at.



then take them both? If you can't find use for an effect that reduces all saving throws for an encounter or at least a few turns I cant help :/
An effect that reduces saving throws is good to have... however, why would I spend a standard action on that if I can do the same with a minor or free action? For example, Orb of Imposition, or Earthroot Staff, or Spell Focus, or one of those Tattoos. If I want to multiclass or hybrid to get a save-reducing power, then the Swordmage's Fate-Spurned Foe is a more powerful option.

[Meta]

I'm not sure where you got that from; by RAW a hybrid must choose a power from both classes at level 1.

Excuse my mis-thought, one at-will would need to be an avenger. but daily, and encounter would have no restrictions.

Just because two classes are both controllers doesn't make them a good hybrid.

thats obvious? and this is controller/striker anyways? i dont get it.

And since you mentioned charop - neither their Wizard Guides nor their Avenger Guides list avenger|wizard as a good hybrid combination. Of course it can be fun to play, but there are only very few hybrid combinations that are more powerful than their base classes, and this isn't one of them. This is intentional design on WOTC's part: the point of hybrids was never to increase a character's power.

I didn't say the handbooks said this was a good combo. I said that the handbook said the implement avenger is a respectable build. you're very good at arguing against things i didnt say.

In a word: no. Any good racial power (like gnome invis, elven reroll, teleportation, or dwarven healing) is going to help your character much more than taking another at-will.

you said wizards have amazing powers. i gave you a racial option where you get another power. you said it's bad. Makes no sense. Also, the wizard's handbook you mentioned has human as skyblue and "the best heroic tier race." this would be even more true as a hybrid.

Indeed they don't - but since your example uses a burst attack (Thunderwave), I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Because the majority of the best wizard powers are bursts to and forced movement on solo's is a very effective option. Again, an odd argument to make.

An effect that reduces saving throws is good to have... however, why would I spend a standard action on that if I can do the same with a minor or free action? For example, Orb of Imposition, or Earthroot Staff, or Spell Focus, or one of those Tattoos. If I want to multiclass or hybrid to get a save-reducing power, then the Swordmage's Fate-Spurned Foe is a more powerful option.

You just argued against orb of imposition in an earlier post and then use it as a defense here. Orb of Imp is a solid - to saves once an encounter. Light of Truth is a solid - to all saves for likely multiple turns once per day. Comparable. Why would you not want both? If you like spell focus, the avenger gets a similar feat in epic as well.

Fate Spurned Foe is more reliable, less drastic, and fills a different power slot. take them both if you so desire. Hybrid SM is a good option too but we werent talking about that :P.

[Kurald Galain]

You just argued against orb of imposition in an earlier post and then use it as a defense here. Orb of Imp is a solid - to saves once an encounter. Light of Truth is a solid - to all saves for likely multiple turns once per day. Comparable.
Because Orb of Imposition is a free action, and Light of Truth is a standard action.

[Meta]

Because Orb of Imposition is a free action, and Light of Truth is a standard action.

Light of Truth also does damage. Like most standard actions. It's comparing apples to oranges. For max effectiveness take them both.

Also responses hid in your quote

[Kurald Galain]

Light of Truth also does damage. Like most standard actions.
That's not the point.

If you cast LOT, you have to use an action point or wait until the next turn before you can cast the save-ends spell you actually needed it for. Because the goal here is control: doing a bit of damage to a single target is not control (and easily done with your at-wills anyway).

If you use any of the dozen or more other options a wizard has for penalizing saving throws, you can cast the save-ends spell immediately, and spend the action point (or your next turn) using another control power.

This is why all those other save-penalizing options a wizard has are all better than LOT, because they don't require a standard action.

Why is Inspiring Word a minor action? Because as a standard action (e.g. a heal check), it's not generally worth doing. Why was Bless recently errata'ed to use a minor action? Because as a standard action, it's not generally worth doing. Why is the Feint option in combat so rarely used? Because as a standard action, it's not generally worth doing. It's a fundamental part of the game.

[Surrealistik]

Look, there are other character builds than your build, and there are other ways of playing a character class than the way you do it. In fact, the wizard is one of the most versatile classes in 4E, with one of the biggest lists of powers, feats, and items available to it. That means that anything you claim is "mandatory" easily has four or five alternatives to it.

I rather do. Mandatory as it is known in char op is essentially defined as build options so strong that choosing something else constitutes a clear and unambiguous downgrade in power.

And no, despite the Wizard's versatility, there are clearly mandatory options that aren't even debatable except for niche builds (blasters for example, but they have their own taxes), such as their list of feat taxes, and must have item picks which is one of the largest of any of the classes in the game.



And ironically, many of the suggestions you claim are "mandatory" aren't nearly as good as you think they are. For instance,

And 'ironically' this is incorrect. Let's investigate your claims/retorts:


Incorrect. (1) Orb of imposition is not an autofail, it's an -3 to -5 penalty.

In heroic yes. In paragon it's -4 to -6, which, when coupled with your save penalization items, feats and class features is essentially an autofail. In Epic, -6 to -10; nearly autofail by itself, and certainly auto-fail with minimal assistance from recurring save penalizers like Spell Focus and Mindfire.


(2) How many save-ends spells do you have, really?

Enough by Paragon that you can break one out almost every encounter if not every encounter in an average day.


(3) There's so much save-reducing gear that a stunlocker doesn't actually need OoI.

That's wrong since most of the broken items that applied penalties to saves for the duration of effects now only apply penalties to the first save. Let's plot things out shall we?

Heroic:

Orb of Mental Dominion: reroll a success (simplified this is -5 assuming no saving throw bonus/penalty, ~-4.5 for an elite, ~-3 for a Solo with +5)
Curse Eye Tattoo: -2 (save ends)
Cunning Staff: -2 (first save only, mutually exclusive with Orb of Mental Dominion)
Orb of Fickle Fate: -2 (save ends, mutually exclusive with Orb of Mental Dominion due to Heroic Daily item limits)
Phrenic Crown: -1 (first save only)
Talisman of Terror: -1 (Fear only)


Combined with the Orb of Mental Dominion, the Orb of Imposition at Heroic alone reduces a solo's chance of succeeding on a save from 64% to 36%, and an elite's from 42.25% to 20.25%. Adding Curse Eye Tattoo? 25% for a solo, and 12.25% for an Elite.

Paragon:

Orb of Mental Dominion: reroll a success (simplified, this is -5 assuming no saving throw bonus/penalty, ~-4.5 for an elite, ~-3 for a Solo with +5)
Curse Eye Tattoo: -2 (save ends)
Cunning Staff: -3 (first save only, mutually exclusive with Orb of Mental Dominion)
Orb of Fickle Fate: -4 (save ends)
Phrenic Crown: -2 (first save only)
Mindfire (Phiarlan Phantasmist PP): -2 (fear, psychic, charm, illusion effects)
Spell Focus: -2
Talisman of Terror: -2 (Fear only)


Assuming we nova all our save penalizers, and we're not using a fear attack, our target has a lasting -8 penalty and rerolls successes against the effect (Orb of Fickle Fate, Curse Eye Tattoo, Spell Focus, Orb of Mental Dominion). For a regular mook, he has a 2.25% chance of success. An elite? 6.25%. A solo? 16%. Clearly the Orb of Imposition amounts to an auto-fail here where there'd otherwise be a significant chance of breaking the save ends.

Of course, this is a bit of an oversimplification because Orb of Fickle Fate and Curse Eye are save ends effects, and will be saved against first. Further, they do not benefit from the Orb of Mental Dominion's rerolling effects, giving solos a hefty 40% chance to save against the Orb of Fickle Fate on the first saving throw, and elites a 25% chance (thus eliminating a -4 penalty to all subsequent saves). When this is considered as well, the Orb of Imposition becomes even more valuable.

Finally, you do not have the resources to go nova with all your best saving penalizers all the time, whereas you can always use the Orb of Imposition, and in conjunction even with your limited, consistently reusable save penalizers it does amount to an auto-failed save.

When it comes to Epic, yeah, then the Orb of Imposition starts losing a bit of its lustre during your save-slaying novas which are almost unbreakable, but it's still very useful and powerful outside of them.


And (4) unless your attack roll hits it never matters what the saving throws are.

Really, if you're built to maximize your chance to hit without that silly wand feature (and you should) hitting is a non-issue. This goes _double_ if you're using a top tier Paragon Path which have insane accuracy boosters (Divine Oracle's Terrifying Insight & Good Omens, Lifesinger's Serene Will, and Phiarlan Phantasmist's Phase-Mist Shroud, and Phantasmist Action). Further, if you're an Illusionist (which again, as a save locker you probably should be), you get perpetual combat advantage with Phantom Echos, making sure your attacks almost always hit.



You're looking at a theoretical situation. In practice, a to-hit bonus is going to be useful every single encounter, whereas a saving throw penalty won't be, simply because you cannot cast a stunlock spell every single encounter, and because to stunlock anything you need to hit it first.

Actually you can hit with a stun-lock spell (either hard: your target can't do anything, or soft: your target functions much less effectively) every single encounter by mid Paragon and beyond. In early Paragon, almost every single encounter. Further, as mentioned, hitting typically isn't a problem with an optimized Wizard, and you will hardly need to savelock most fights; but then, in those fights, Wand of Accuracy generally isn't super useful as they're forgiving and there are few 'must hit' powers being used. Lastly, Orb of Imposition retains some decent utility even outside of save locking; persisting a -2 to hit with say Illusory Ambush, or denying everyone in a huge area burst 2 via Enlarge Spell Opportunity Actions for another turn via Winged Horde is quite nice.



Teleportation is easily one of the best encounter powers in the book. Other than that, yes, you're listing several good race choices for the wizard. Except that for some reason you're including humans, who are generally overrated. The difference between Eladrin, Gnome, and Genasi wizards is a matter of personal taste - it is simply false that one is objectively better.

Humans are not overrated at all between their racial feats, and racial properties; not having a bonus to a secondary stat hurts, but it's definitely compensated for. Genasi are inarguably superior blasters than Eladrin, no question (and I'm not attempting to argue that outside of this role they make better wizards). Gnomes are indisputably better illusionists, with a comparable if not superior racial power. My point is that no matter what optimized build you are aiming for, there is _always_ a better race than Eladrin.



Overall you're overestimating the effectiveness of a +2 to a secondary stat, and underestimating the effectiveness of a good racial encounter power. Again, the latter will come into play every single combat (and possibly in non-combat situations as well) and the former won't.

But I'm not, see above. The secondary stat is but one consideration, and the Eladrin's good racial doesn't save it from the fact that there is always a better race.



That is incorrect: the best (save ends) spells are Sleep and Face of Death, and for both, the only save that matters is the first.

After a certain point it most certainly is not due to the items that impose penalties to the first saving throw only, otherwise this is accurate.

EDIT: After further review, I definitely have to say the Domination (save ends) powers are superior to Face of Death since its helplessness does not incapacitate the enemy. Sleep I could have sworn there was an errata for that limited the power of its unconsciousness, but I cannot find it, so yeah, one of the best (save ends) in the game.



I'm wondering what character level you're actually thinking of: on the one hand, you seem to assume that your wizard has lots of save-ends stunlocks, but there aren't all that many in heroic tier. On the other hand, you seem to think that buying a 680gp item is a big expense, but it should be pocket change for any character at level 9-10 or higher.


Generally early to late Paragon, and yes, there are things I would rather put my gold towards than a bunch of utility wands. Again, they're nice to have, but I'd rather have something at the same cumulative price as those wands which is consistently more useful and powerful.



You're assuming that switching is an "inconvenience", whereas in practice it is a free action. You're also assuming that using an utility is something you do instead of making a powerful attack, whereas in practice it is something you do in addition to making a powerful attack.


First of all, how is it a free action in 'practice' (minor to stash, minor to draw; if you like moving, and sustaining things, this is a definite inconvenience), unless you orient your build around drawing the damn things, which costs you precious feats/item slots in addition to gold?

Second, outside of wasting an Action Point, how do you exploit the utility of these wands without it mutually excluding the use of another, better or comparably powered option in the same turn?



What, doubling the size or duration of any power of your choice is not good enough?

Doubling the size is an exaggeration and situationally useful, besides costing you a Daily item use, all of which are spoken for in Heroic and Paragon (Orb of Mental Dominion and Orb of Fickle Fate). Doubling the duration of an encounter power (not any power) is strong, but the benefits of the Orb of Nimble Thoughts and the Orb of Fickle Fate are better, so while I certainly back your recommendation for getting the Orb of Heightened Imposition, I would prioritize the purchase (and in the latter's case the upgrade) of these two secondary implements first.

[Mando Knight]

In a word: no. Any good racial power (like gnome invis, elven reroll, teleportation, or dwarven healing) is going to help your character much more than taking another at-will.

Especially since any random Master's Wand will mimic the ability (for roughly the same use frequency as the 3rd at-will) for cheap. (Albeit at a penalty if its bonus lags behind and/or you're not a Wand Wizard normally)

Human does get better if you allow Essentials options, since you can swap out that third At-Will for something more delicious... like a +4 to your attack roll once an encounter (better than Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes 50% of the time!).

[Kurald Galain]

Especially since any random Master's Wand will mimic the ability (for roughly the same use frequency as the 3rd at-will) for cheap. (Albeit at a penalty if its bonus lags behind and/or you're not a Wand Wizard normally)
Yep. You know you're in trouble when your main racial ability can be bought for 680gp :smalltongue:

Heck, I rarely even use my second at-will. I find this applies to several other classes as well: for instance, a ranger will rarely need another at-will than Twin Strike, so for them this human ability doesn't add much either.



Human does get better if you allow Essentials options, since you can swap out that third At-Will for something more delicious... like a +4 to your attack roll once an encounter (better than Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes 50% of the time!).
True, this is a much better option. It's often even better than Elven Accuracy.

[Mando Knight]

Heck, I rarely even use my second at-will.

True, though for artillery-type classes with a Close Burst/Blast at-will, you might find yourself switching between at-wills for each battle, especially if the second power is a ranged one (which it probably should be, so you're not always moving up to the enemy). Scorching Burst and Thunderwave is a decent combo and example from the PHB, IIRC.

Similarly, a constant-switch Druid will be using two of his at-wills almost constantly (humanoid at-will, switch. Beast at-will, switch again). I'm not sure of its effectiveness overall, but I've seen it mentioned before. (Call of the Beast is a decent power for anti-marking yourself: get near a group of enemies, CoB them, switch to Beast form, then go where they will probably have to provoke OAs in order to get past you to where your nearest ally is)

[Kurald Galain]

True, though for artillery-type classes with a Close Burst/Blast at-will, you might find yourself switching between at-wills for each battle,
Yes. My usual strategy is to have "default" ranged power, and a close power as backup in case enemies come too close. However, for the wizard, I find that enemies are so often just begging to be pushed into my Stinking Cloud or Wall of Fire :smallcool:

My usual strategy for melee characters would be to have a "default" melee power and rely on heavy-thrown weapons (or daggers) if ranged attacks are required. Several melee classes don't have good ranged powers anyway.

Anyway my point is that, after you've used your 3-4 encounter powers and possibly a daily, you usually have one "main" at-will and one "backup" power. If you often find yourself in a situation where neither is a good choice, then you've probably need to retrain your power choice.



Similarly, a constant-switch Druid will be using two of his at-wills almost constantly (humanoid at-will, switch. Beast at-will, switch again). I'm not sure of its effectiveness overall, but I've seen it mentioned before.
That sounds workable. I see most druid characters constantly switching forms anyway to take advantage of their free shift :smallbiggrin: I must say I don't really like the class myself, though.

[Meta]

Yep. You know you're in trouble when your main racial ability can be bought for 680gp :smalltongue:

Heck, I rarely even use my second at-will. I find this applies to several other classes as well: for instance, a ranger will rarely need another at-will than Twin Strike, so for them this human ability doesn't add much either.


True, this is a much better option. It's often even better than Elven Accuracy.

Feats are good. +2 to any ability is solid. +1 to defenses are fun too. The third at-will is most useful in a hybrid's case cuz they have many more options for at-wills. plus wizards have great ones

[Meta]

That's not the point.

If you cast LOT, you have to use an action point or wait until the next turn before you can cast the save-ends spell you actually needed it for. Because the goal here is control: doing a bit of damage to a single target is not control (and easily done with your at-wills anyway).

If you use any of the dozen or more other options a wizard has for penalizing saving throws, you can cast the save-ends spell immediately, and spend the action point (or your next turn) using another control power.

This is why all those other save-penalizing options a wizard has are all better than LOT, because they don't require a standard action.

Why is Inspiring Word a minor action? Because as a standard action (e.g. a heal check), it's not generally worth doing. Why was Bless recently errata'ed to use a minor action? Because as a standard action, it's not generally worth doing. Why is the Feint option in combat so rarely used? Because as a standard action, it's not generally worth doing. It's a fundamental part of the game.

LOT lasts for more than one turn. You can stack many effects on in that time, action point or no. Also, your allies can take great advantage of this.

[Mando Knight]

The third at-will is most useful in a hybrid's case cuz they have many more options for at-wills.
Wizards have more than enough options for at-wills themselves, and yet Kurald's statement applies: you don't need a third at-will because you'll rarely use a third at-will. Some classes (Ranger) don't even need a second at-will.

[Meta]

Wizards have more than enough options for at-wills themselves, and yet Kurald's statement applies: you don't need a third at-will because you'll rarely use a third at-will. Some classes (Ranger) don't even need a second at-will.

So don't use the third at-will. Take the other power. Also, CharOp disagrees with your assessment of human wizards. Humans are versatile and reliable. Wizards seek to be these things.

The wizard is also nothing like the ranger. The ranger has one fantastic at-will and a few decent ones.

The wizard has has a bunch of very good ones, they benefit from the extra at will moreso.

I wasnt recommending a human ranger :smallcool: