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Yora
2010-09-20, 09:30 AM
So, you want to plan a campaign. Not just a bunch of generic rescue the princess and find the treasure quest put end on end, but a long running story of a group of characters attempting to reach a certain goal.

Idea 1: A high level mage or warlord gathers an army and wants to conquer the world, and must be stopped before he completes his magical ritual of world domination.

Idea 2: ...

I've run out of ideas.

Be it novels, video games, TV-shows, movies... Almost all of them follow this one same plot.
Lord of the Rings: Defeat Suron before all is lost.
Star Wars: Defeat the evil Empire.
Star Trek Deep Space Nine: Defeat the Dominion before everything is lost.
Record of Lodoss War: First defeat the evil Empire, then stop the Wizard from destryong the world.
Baldur's Gate: Kill the Bhaalspawn before one can finish the ritual to become an evil god.
Metal Gear Solid: Defeat the Big Bad before his doomsday device is ready.
Neon Genesis Evangelion: Kill the Angels before they can destroy the world (with a twist, but anyway).

This could go on for pages. There are of course lots of other plots out there, but these are usually rather short and after 90 minutes or 300 pages the story is over and you might see the same characters again in a different story.

But are there any other long-term plots that do not end with defeating the Big Bad in an all or nothing fight?

Psyx
2010-09-20, 09:42 AM
But are there any other long-term plots that do not end with defeating the Big Bad in an all or nothing fight?


Off the top of my head:

Raise the stature and power of your own noble house / organisation.
That campaign finishes with a coronation!

Stop the Big Bad End Guy turning up in the first place, because he's absolutely immortal and unkillable. (cf: Every CoC plot, ever)

Live long and fruitful adventuring lives. Retire having married the proverbial prom queen.

Explore some new continent or city. Return home with potatoes and tobacco. Become rich and influential.

Be bored and trapped immortals, trying to find a way to die. (Not that I'm listening to William Control's 'Dorian Gray' at the moment or anything...)

dsmiles
2010-09-20, 09:43 AM
TES IV: Oblivion: Close the gates to Oblivion before the big bad gets loose.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-20, 09:44 AM
Worry less about plot, and more about the world. Let the plot emerge from interactions, rather than being planned in advance.

Yora
2010-09-20, 09:45 AM
Actually I am looking for campaign ideas mostly to make a world. :smallbiggrin:
Just throwing together a lot of countries, organizations, and monsters is easy, but it seems to me that to make it all interesting and not feel like generic kitchen sink stuff, you allready have to have an idea what types of campaigns will take place in the world.

Stop the Big Bad End Guy turning up in the first place, because he's absolutely immortal and unkillable. (cf: Every CoC plot, ever)

TES IV: Oblivion: Close the gates to Oblivion before the big bad gets loose.
Isn't that basically the same? Portals opening and ancient monsters waking usually doesn't happen by itself, but rather because someone is actively trying to make it happen.

Angelmaker
2010-09-20, 09:45 AM
In my current campaign, the group has an ancient artifact, which thrives upon conflict, utlimately unleashing a cataclysm on the known world, when it has gathered enough power out of those conflicts. So the ultimate goal is to stay away from battle as far as possible.

I guess, this is at least a little original, however, since itīs D&D 4E, itīs only the usual skill challenges + or - 3 encounters a day albeit with a little twist. :smallamused:

Duke of URL
2010-09-20, 09:56 AM
But are there any other long-term plots that do not end with defeating the Big Bad in an all or nothing fight?

The main problem is, those plots are used all of the time because they work, for both storytellers and players. Saving the world is a great, epic-feeling goal, and therefore, the world must be saved from something. Having a "face" (and therefore, a statblock) of this pending apocalypse makes the challenge surmountable by providing a target to take down to stop the events from going too far.

I'm a fan of the morally ambiguous. Such as a war where both sides can be looked at as the "good guys" or the "bad guys", depending on the perspective. The players can choose to aid one side over the other, find some way to forge a peace, or eliminate both sides and take over themselves (or on behalf of a 3rd party). Or less of a war, but more with dealing with a significant number of high-powered beings, whom the players can ally with or war against as they choose, rather than having a single world-ending BBEG.

Alternatively, make the long-term story about personal growth, rather than "save the world". Admittedly, this is less "epic", but that doesn't mean any less fun to run or play. Perhaps survival itself is a goal -- the "enemy" (or more simply, the forces arrayed against them) is beyond their capability, but simply finding a way to escape the danger can be the long-term objective. Or the characters are trying to rise within an organization (or are creating their own), and must grow in personal strength while cultivating the right contacts and allies.

There's also the "science fiction" route: take a more standard campaign setting, but make one significant change to the way the world works, and deal with the logical fallout of that change. Put the characters in the situation of living through this change, and having to react to it to survive and prosper.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-20, 10:01 AM
Actually I am looking for campaign ideas mostly to make a world. :smallbiggrin:
Just throwing together a lot of countries, organizations, and monsters is easy, but it seems to me that to make it all interesting and not feel like generic kitchen sink stuff, you allready have to have an idea what types of campaigns will take place in the world.

Start with the people. Exceptional individuals are what make history. They need not be exceptionally good, or exceptionally evil, but they do need to have at least one secret, unusual motivation, etc. The man who just wants to make his father proud...but his father is on the wrong side of the grave. The henchman who longs to one day be a noble, and pilfers loot from the adventurers he serves.

Get lots of them together, and see how they interact.

Zaydos
2010-09-20, 10:05 AM
1. A god was slain, and his dying blood washed across the plains and flooded the rivers. Now a great plague spread by the god's blood threatens the world. The PCs must find a way to counteract this plague before it destroys the world.

2. The PCs are reincarnated from an ancient demon lord and his dark essence suffuses their entire being. Slowly but surely it will drive them to madness, and to become rampant slayers who exist only to spread destruction across the world. They must find a way to stop themselves before it is too late; unfortunately when they die it will revive the demon lord.

Xiander
2010-09-20, 10:38 AM
The odysey (not sure i spelled that right)

The players are very, very far from home, and in the middle of unfreindly territory. How will they find the path to safety. And what awaits them when they get home.

Thatīs very different and can be epiced up as much as you wish.

Theodoxus
2010-09-20, 10:45 AM
my meta plot involves an artifact that was split into 20 parts and spread across the multiverse. The heroes are reassembling it so they can use it to go back in time and stop their creator (they're living constructs) from building the forge in the first place (the act of building it causes him to go mad and build constructs that will destroy the planet - think Dark Suns Rajaat only using constructs instead of humans).

So far they've managed to piss off the elemental gods, travel to the Pathfinder world and most recently Barsoom - they've currently managed to travel back to their original starting point in Forgotten Realms... always following the clarion call of the Trandium.

hamishspence
2010-09-20, 10:46 AM
TV Tropes inevitably describes quite a few of these:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Plots

Cyrion
2010-09-20, 10:47 AM
There's also the "science fiction" route: take a more standard campaign setting, but make one significant change to the way the world works, and deal with the logical fallout of that change. Put the characters in the situation of living through this change, and having to react to it to survive and prosper.

I use this sort of thing a lot. I had a long-running Renaissance Italy campaign based on the ideas that 1) Colombus didn't come back and 2) magic worked. I thought about the potential political and cultural implications of that, and that gave me lots of adventuring seeds- lots of "save the princess" and "foil the BBEG" little things, but also some good, unique things. My curent world-in-the-making involves dealing with mobile geography. That's going to give me a "What the #&$*#s going on?" plot to start with that can segue into a cultural shift series of plotlines.

big teej
2010-09-20, 10:49 AM
I don't think I saw this mentioned, soooo

instead of followin the 'cliche' plot of 'stop the big bad conquering army/etc'

how about

LEAD a conquering army!?

thats a goal for my planeswalker barbarian.... who is slowly but surely cllawing is way to that being a level appropriate task....

El Dorado
2010-09-20, 10:55 AM
I don't think I saw this mentioned, soooo

instead of followin the 'cliche' plot of 'stop the big bad conquering army/etc'

how about

LEAD a conquering army!?

thats a goal for my planeswalker barbarian.... who is slowly but surely cllawing is way to that being a level appropriate task....

I could SO get into a campaign like that.

Zaydos
2010-09-20, 11:08 AM
Learn the true secrets of magic so as to create a utopia/the Tippyverse/take over the world.

Revive the god of peace to end continual war that has ravaged the world for years.

Have the PCs be some exotic new race and have them quest to discover where they came from and how.

Psyx
2010-09-20, 11:34 AM
Isn't that basically the same? Portals opening and ancient monsters waking usually doesn't happen by itself, but rather because someone is actively trying to make it happen.


No. Don't confuse 'challenge' with 'combat'. The final piece of the thing to prevent the thing popping up might need to be stolen from Fort Knox, or paid for with a big pile of cash gathered from art thefts and con-jobs.

Escape is a good one as well. Look at 'The Prisoner'.

Yora
2010-09-20, 11:43 AM
Escape is good for a single adventure. But once you're free, what do you do?

Duke of URL
2010-09-20, 11:46 AM
Escape is good for a single adventure. But once you're free, what do you do?

"An adventure" is a fairly inexplicit measure of duration. Take a look at the SliverClawShift campaign archives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836) -- the first campaign, and frankly a whole lot of the second, involves just staying a step or two ahead of doom, even though the larger metaplot in both eventually features some form of world-ending BBEG conflict.

Demonix
2010-09-20, 11:51 AM
Actually, I had a campaign that centered on restoring the God of Death to his rightful place.

At some point at the beginning of the campaign, the god of death was defeated and shattered, with various pieces of his essence being scattered on the campaign world. These essences fused with corpses, creating "special" undead that were compelled to find each other.

There were going to be a lot of variances in these shards, some being mindlessly compelled, others that knew what they were, and everything in between.

Unfortunately, I designed the campaign in 4th ed and my players didnt like 4th ed mechanics. :( I even had a split encounter with half the players in a hallucinagenic tea ceremony while the other half try to defend them planned out...that would have been awesome.

HunterOfJello
2010-09-20, 12:27 PM
Make it an evil campaign. They're more fun and encourage way more roleplaying by the players.

Once you have an evil campaign going the motives and types of adventures that players would be interested in participating in changes.

Saving a princess from a dragon becomes pointless or profitless. Stealing the princess so that the party can ransom her to the King might be a better option. Or the group my ally themselves with the dragon and work as its temporary minions in hunting down other groups of adventurers that might be after the princess.

Traveler
2010-09-20, 12:28 PM
Here is my two cents.
In the campaign world, the PCs were hero's of different time periods that defeated different villians. They have been brought back all at the same time because someone has gone and done the same with the villians a little earlier.
Now, because you can't raise dead people who died of old age, the heroes lost most of their power (levels) and actually have to gain it all back while defeating their collective ancient enemies.
And then the building catches on Fire! Campaign starts there.

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-20, 12:29 PM
The players are part of a caravan traveling through the vast open plains.

They stop at a merchant outpost and meet Mr. Townsend, a big man (figuratively. He's a gnome) who worked his way up from a simple shop to a huge trade network. Your caravan consists mostly of his men.

Townsend hires the players to wipe out a troublesome village of gnolls that have been raiding his caravans.

The players have the option of trying to fight the entire village, or assassinate their shaman, who uses magic to Create Water so that they don't starve to death. (The trade network is fueled by decanters of endless water)

Once the village is destroyed, they get paid and continue onward to the city of mages. There, they can do a handful of side-quests before being sent on the plot-continuer:

A mage with an interest in archaeology sends them to the Cold Mountains, where they're to bring back relics from a dead civilization. Unbeknownst to the players, the civilization was mind flayers, and one of the jars they bring back contains a mind flayer larva in stasis.
NOTE: This is as far as the game I was running actually got so I’m missing the middle portion of the campaign, but I do have the end-game here:

1. With the last of the nature-shamans destroyed, Townsend has no one to oppose his use of necromancy. He animates the entire (former) population of the plains and uses his zombie army to mass produce goods. The players bring this to light, and he is eventually stopped.
2. One peninsula is a sanctuary for monstrous races and ruled over by a Lawful Neutral lich-king who hosts world-changing events to assuage his boredom. Possible choices include:
a. Great Race
b. Great Tournament
c. World’s Largest Musical
3. The gnomes, who vanished hundreds of years ago, are revealed to live in a flying city above the elf peninsula, using their crafting ability to produce massive amounts of tribute in return for their continued safety.
4. The mind-flayer larva infests the archaeologist and becomes a mind-flayer. Although initially neutral, his need to murder sentient beings combined with the revelation that elves destroyed his civilization provide his motivation to try to get the other races to attack the elves. He also instigates a gnomish rebellion. (Which results in their freedom)

Psyx
2010-09-20, 12:31 PM
Escape is good for a single adventure. But once you're free, what do you do?

It can be a lot more than one adventure. Look at 'prison break', too.

The 'prison' can be large: Like hell, for example. Or a large island. That gives scope for free-roaming adventures while in 'prison'.

Once out, then maybe staying ahead of the foes. Or going back in again with a mind to overthrowing the place. Or getting the rest of the prisoners out...

Hat-Trick
2010-09-20, 12:55 PM
Along the lines of leading conquering armies, you could instead command a dungeon which is raided by heroes every so often. The plot comes down to defending your home and trying to keep dungeon politics under control.

Zaydos
2010-09-20, 12:58 PM
Along the lines of leading conquering armies, you could instead command a dungeon which is raided by heroes every so often. The plot comes down to defending your home and trying to keep dungeon politics under control.

That makes me think of a webcomic I've read (dungeons and denizens (http://dungeond.com/)).

Jastermereel
2010-09-20, 01:41 PM
Even if the main plot is a little cliche, there are other ways to get your players invested.

In my campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9375273) each of the players, to varying degrees, has a personal motivation that I plan to make use of along the way. Sure, they'll eventually deal with the Red Hand (before all is lost), but along the way Adrian the Goliath Barbarian will improve diplomatic relations for her people, Naomi the Saurian shifter will take revenge for her slain mate and rescue her kidnapped child, and so on and so forth. It took a little work trying to figure out how to weave their threads into a largely pre-imagined plot (not railroading - I'm just working from a module and trying to be flexible).

That's not to say that there aren't cliches on that scale. Revenge for a slain mentor/love/child, earning respect of mentor/parents/etc, but it puts some of the creative burden on the players to come up with something new, or not as they may choose.

Tying the characters' back-stories into the main quest can get your players to feel it is less "The DM's Story" and more "My Story".

Cogidubnus
2010-09-20, 02:20 PM
TV Tropes inevitably describes quite a few of these:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Plots

You didn't...

I myself love the exploration idea.

A campaign I recently applied for has us start by going on a quest, then getting sucked through time to the future when magic has almost died out and technology rules. I guess we'll have the opportunity to choose between living in that world, trying to get home, or rebuilding from the ground up.

hamishspence
2010-09-20, 02:47 PM
You didn't...

I've never gotten the "don't link to TV-Tropes" meme- sure, the site's a little addictive- but when it has the info, it makes sense to provide a link.

Cogidubnus
2010-09-20, 02:54 PM
I've never gotten the "don't link to TV-Tropes" meme- sure, the site's a little addictive- but when it has the info, it makes sense to provide a link.

I know. But know I'm on Freud Was Right (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FreudWasRight) now. I don't know how.

Nero24200
2010-09-20, 03:16 PM
I once ran a sort of "anti-cliche" campaign where there was a big prophecy involving slaying an evil dragon.

Turns out the profecy was just a way of getting people to indirectly release a powerful devil into the world, and the "prophet" who made the prophecy was actually a human possessed by the very same devil.

big teej
2010-09-20, 03:27 PM
Here is my two cents.
In the campaign world, the PCs were hero's of different time periods that defeated different villians. They have been brought back all at the same time because someone has gone and done the same with the villians a little earlier.
Now, because you can't raise dead people who died of old age, the heroes lost most of their power (levels) and actually have to gain it all back while defeating their collective ancient enemies.
And then the building catches on Fire! Campaign starts there.

didn't they do that for the Dungeons and Dragons video game for the original XBOX?

because the overarching plot of that game was roughly the same.

500 (5000?) years ago, 4 adventureres fought a terrible evil sorcerer type person, but with his last breath, he cast a spell that slew the heroes

-present day-
evil cults attempts to ressurect evil guy and use his power for their own... the ritual naturally flops and BBEG kills them all...

the dwarves ressurrect the hero's to stop the BBEG once again.

iElf
2010-09-20, 04:34 PM
4 young members of a drow noble house, forced to work together. they all have separate personal goals, that no one else knows. with every mission given to them by the matriarch, they each receive an additional objective in secret, often conflicting with the secret objective of their team "mates".

TurtleKing
2010-09-20, 05:39 PM
Lets see I have two right off the bat.

Humpity Dumpity:
In a d20 modern/future setting there is a powerful Doppleganger spy that is not stable. His mind has been in pieces (Multiple Personality Disorder) for years now, and the chaotic evil personality has been getting more aggressive. Pain has he is called wants to destablize this region known as The Crossroads of the Universe. If he succeeds in his efforts this area could become a war zone between several powerful races. The job of the pcs is to put the spy's mind back together.

Corpse of the Uncreated:
PunPun had managed to ascend into a godhood with nigh infinite power. However the Supreme Creator that had created the universes stopped PunPun from completely realizing his ultimate goal lest he destroy the Supreme Creator and everything else. The Supreme Creator had uncreated PunPun from existence so their was no chance of him ever coming back. The only ones who even remember that he had existed are the Over-Dieties. Even though the Supreme Creator had uncreated PunPun he had enough divine power to leave a corpse of himself with all of his divine power behind. Now all manner of beings ranging from gods and demon lords to even mortals are drawn to this corpse in search of this divine power. The goal of the pcs is to find the Supreme Creator who has gone into hiding again to finish the job so it does not fall into the wrong hands.

Traveler
2010-09-20, 06:57 PM
@ big teej
More or less. I was just thinking that different time periods would have been better. The first hero wouldn't have a clue to who the others are while the most recent would be working with their idols. From a roleplaying standpoint I thought it would be interesting, especially in my group. My players would play it like each hero has an ego the size of a small moon.

Jarrick
2010-09-20, 08:22 PM
@turtleking
A campaign built around Pun Pun? That's gotta be worth a cookie. :smallbiggrin:

One of my favorites was building an army of good powers to fight an army of evil powers. The catch? The PCs were evil and also controlling evil powers that betrayed and slew the good powers in the final confrontation.

The druids entered the forests to slay the fiends lurking there, not knowing that the trees would be set alight behind them by flaming giant skeletons set loose to finish the job, thus eliminating both groups. When the clerics and paladins lead their charge against the hoards of undead soldiers, they never expected the hail of boulders from the evil storm giants hiding just behind the hillside. It was epic.

Sure some of them escaped, but that's a campaign for a different time. :smallwink:

aquaticrna
2010-09-20, 08:31 PM
This is less of a plot idea, but its something that has been working out for our group really well.

I used to be our groups dedicated dm, but i eventually ran out of ideas i was excited by and really just wanted to play again. Unfortunately no one that i play with had it in them to be the new dm. So my solution was a pass the story style game of dnd. Every session we rotate dm and they pick up where the other person left off. Its lead to some really cool and unexpected plot elements as each person picks up on the things they found interesting. Loot and xp are done normally and then the dm gets a duplicate share of gold and combat xp, so they don't get behind, and then the players award the dm with the equivalent of rp-xp for cool plot elements.

its allowed everyone to play, has let people try their hand at dming with out the pressure of running every game, and has made the players a lot more interested in the story and role-playing since they're invested on both ends.

Jarrick
2010-09-20, 08:50 PM
This is less of a plot idea, but its something that has been working out for our group really well.

I used to be our groups dedicated dm, but i eventually ran out of ideas i was excited by and really just wanted to play again. Unfortunately no one that i play with had it in them to be the new dm. So my solution was a pass the story style game of dnd. Every session we rotate dm and they pick up where the other person left off. Its lead to some really cool and unexpected plot elements as each person picks up on the things they found interesting. Loot and xp are done normally and then the dm gets a duplicate share of gold and combat xp, so they don't get behind, and then the players award the dm with the equivalent of rp-xp for cool plot elements.

its allowed everyone to play, has let people try their hand at dming with out the pressure of running every game, and has made the players a lot more interested in the story and role-playing since they're invested on both ends.

This is almost exactly how my group rolls, but I hadn't thought of the players awarding the DM's character plot XP for cool plot elements. That's a good idea, I'll have to start that. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

lsfreak
2010-09-20, 09:26 PM
You are members of a small group of people - a werewolf pack, a binder clan, just a small human tribe among other tribes.

Life is hard. There are conflicts with other groups, maybe over farmland, maybe because they want you dead, maybe because there are ritualized raids on other villages. Neither side is good and neither side is evil.

You survive. Maybe negotiate for more land. Maybe you participate in religious pilgrimages. Maybe you raid for food or slaves. There are no BBEG's, no artifacts, no real plot beyond keeping the village alive. Maybe that means moving the village, or offering up sacrifices, or starting a war (but since you're only facing other small-ish groups, that's not as big a deal).

Definitely works best in a more low-magic/E6 setting.

Yora
2010-09-21, 06:16 AM
I know. But know I'm on Freud Was Right (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FreudWasRight) now. I don't know how.
This (http://xkcd.com/214/) is how! :smallbiggrin:

PersonMan
2010-09-21, 06:51 AM
One idea is to start the campaign with the defeat of the BBEG.

The rest of the game is about mopping up the remains of their huge army/organization, taking down their generals and restoring order to the world.

Another idea I had a while ago is being (fairly) normal people. The problem? There's a huge war going on-between two evenly matched epic wizards, or between two other such incredibly powerful forces. Surviving, trying to keep your friends and family alive, is the goal of this one. Eventually, you might go to put together an ancient artifact that could shield your home permanently.

Another one: The chosen heroes have fallen. The world is in darkness, the BBEG rules...until he dies. Everything is thrown into chaos as a war for succession begins, which is chosen as the perfect time for the >9000 resistance groups to make their move. In the end, the capitol has been destroyed, the last of the BBEG's family is either dead or scattered to the ends of the earth, and it's time to rebuild.

Yora
2010-09-21, 06:55 AM
Now this is an interesting background to build a setting on. I really might use that.
It leaves a lot of voids of power, that have to be filled, and armies in search for a new cause. That's the kind of setup that leads to a lot of campaign plots by itself.

Shademan
2010-09-21, 07:02 AM
I'm just gonna leave this link here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9377553#post9377553

Dienekes
2010-09-21, 07:18 AM
I had one campaign where I got it so that the PCs became the ones trying to unlock the ancient evil under their control to try and stop an invasion.

Almost, pity they realized at the end that they were the "bad guys" and thought the destruction of their home was a small price to pay when compared to what would happen if the demon got out.

All that work down the toilet.

Saintheart
2010-09-21, 08:53 AM
One thought: change your first assumption, which is the mage building an army so he can perform his world-destroying ritual.

Why should it be destroying the world? Why not because he just wants his wife back, a la Mr Freeze? His first and only love has been turned into some kind of imprisoned 'good' lich, and it's taken him the better part of decades (or even centuries) to finally discover a method by which to free her or make her human again or whatever?

Maybe that army of his is only intended to seize a node of power which will allow him to complete his ritual?

DaMullet
2010-09-21, 09:45 AM
In the game I'm running, the (admittedly shady-looking) technically immortal 'villain' is actually collecting artifacts in order to combine their power and reawaken the gods, bringing magic back to the world. If the players try to stop him, they're on the Evil side of the conflict more than he is.

big teej
2010-09-21, 01:32 PM
One thought: change your first assumption, which is the mage building an army so he can perform his world-destroying ritual.

Why should it be destroying the world? Why not because he just wants his wife back, a la Mr Freeze? His first and only love has been turned into some kind of imprisoned 'good' lich, and it's taken him the better part of decades (or even centuries) to finally discover a method by which to free her or make her human again or whatever?

Maybe that army of his is only intended to seize a node of power which will allow him to complete his ritual?

I was actually rereading "I, Srahd; the memoirs of a vampire" earlier and decided to implement a version of this into my campaign after the 'teaching module' is finished.

BBEG isn't necessarily EVIL, he's just evil. and wants the only person he's ever loved back....

and is willing to slaughter and maim anyone between him and his goal

opens up interesting opportunities for the party
perhaps they sympathize enough with his goal that they're willing to help him (provide less maiming is involved) or perhaps he's so monstrous that despite their sympathy for the man/monster, he must be destroyed
etc etc



@ big teej
More or less. I was just thinking that different time periods would have been better. The first hero wouldn't have a clue to who the others are while the most recent would be working with their idols. From a roleplaying standpoint I thought it would be interesting, especially in my group. My players would play it like each hero has an ego the size of a small moon.

I see, I didn't get that thats what you were going for from the other post... myyyy baaaad.:smallredface:

that said, I actually really like this idea, and my implement this at some point.

Magnema
2010-09-21, 01:47 PM
One of the things that annoys me is how often the BBEG is perfectly free to kill innocents to his goal. What about a BBEG who merely wants to take down a certain kind of people?

For example, someone who doesn't like the local gov't, even though the gov't is lawful good, and so wants to take it down, but finds killing innocents abhorrent (although the non-"innocents" of the gov't are fine). Or, an extreme racist (e.g. Hitler) who thinks (correctly or incorrectly) that one particular race is "evil" and must be exterminated. Both could make excellent BBEGs, even if neither is the "kill innocents" type.

In summary: A BBEG who is perfectly willing to kill innocents is overdone; BBEGs can (and well-made ones frequently do) have a goal that is not, does not include, and perhaps even is opposed to "kill every innocent person, ever."

hamishspence
2010-09-21, 02:23 PM
One of the things that annoys me is how often the BBEG is perfectly free to kill innocents to his goal. What about a BBEG who merely wants to take down a certain kind of people?

In summary: A BBEG who is perfectly willing to kill innocents is overdone; BBEGs can (and well-made ones frequently do) have a goal that is not, does not include, and perhaps even is opposed to "kill every innocent person, ever."

Agreed on this. I've never thought the whole "Anyone not willing to debase or destroy the innocent cannot be evil, no matter what kind of atrocities they commit against the non-innocent" claim was consistant with the D&D splatbooks.

Characters like Dexter or the Punisher, who murder and even torture the "not-innocent" sometimes for a cause, sometimes for their own pleasure- can be evil- and might make good BBEGs.

Yora
2010-09-21, 03:03 PM
The only reason the BBEG always wants to kill and enslave everyone, is because this is something almost anyone can agree upon that it should be prevented.
But aiming for the lowest common motivator doesn't make exceptionally good stories.