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Dresil
2010-09-20, 10:18 AM
I've got a few questions about wizards, namely the Shrink Item Spell. Now what I've been thinking was this...

What is to stop you from using Shrink Item on a catapult, preparing it to fire small, sizing it back up again and then firing it?

Also, what if you load it with say... 50 vials of acid? What damage would it do?

Does one need an Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Catapults?

Would anything loaded in the catapult also grow with it, or would that count as its seperate Shrink Item Spell?

Thanks all.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-20, 10:43 AM
I don't think anything stops you from doing what you say. But consider this, if you shrink the catapult and then load it with ammo that is appropriate to it's shrunken size, what makes you think that the ammo will still be the appropriate size when you unshrink it?

I think that what would happen would be this:

1. Shrink catapult
2. load with appropriate shot for shrunk catapult
3. Unshrink catapult
4. Realize you have a pebble loaded into your now full size catapult.


as for loading it with vials of acid, i'd say they'd use the splash weapon rules.

Shenanigans
2010-09-20, 10:48 AM
Or do you mean Shrinking both the catapult and the ammunition, firing the pebble, then dismissing the spell so your hand-catapult is firing boulders?

The timing might be a little troublesome on that, but with two wizards, or just a catapult that is miniature to begin with, I can see it working. In that case, why not just have someone throw the pebble? (or dart, or spear, or whatever really)

Dresil
2010-09-20, 10:58 AM
I'm talking about shrink the catapult, pull the wheel back/lock into place and either A) place boulder (also shrunk) into catapult, dismiss both spells and fire or B) unshrink catapult, put tons of acid in, and then fire. (Also since I'm throwing 50 vials of acid, would it do 50d6?

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-20, 11:09 AM
This is purely RAI, but many DM's cap splash damage to that of the damage you take when fully submerged in said substance. Raw I don't think there are rules for throwing multies of vials all at once. I personaly would make the attack a % chance to hit any target in an area with a vial and splash damage to everything in the area. That is totaly my own stuff there, as there is no RAW that I know.

Psyx
2010-09-20, 11:39 AM
Splash damage doesn't all add up, so no: No 50d6. No 50d6 for alchemical fire, either.

As a GM, I'd apply a bit of very basic physics and the Law of Conservation of Momentum if anyone launched a small object and then unshunk it. You might have a 50lb rock instead of a 5lb one, but it's travelling at 1/10th the speed, so is just going to pretty much drop straight to the floor.


What is to stop you from using Shrink Item on a catapult, preparing it to fire small, sizing it back up again and then firing it?

Nothing. It'd speed up reloading, I guess.

Siege engines need the proficiency, as listed in the book whose name escapes me (lords of battle?) but which includes the combat medic, dread commando and warweaver PrCs. Otherwise, it's a -4 penalty.

ericgrau
2010-09-20, 01:59 PM
I've got a few questions about wizards, namely the Shrink Item Spell. Now what I've been thinking was this...

What is to stop you from using Shrink Item on a catapult, preparing it to fire small, sizing it back up again and then firing it?

Also, what if you load it with say... 50 vials of acid? What damage would it do?

Does one need an Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Catapults?

Would anything loaded in the catapult also grow with it, or would that count as its seperate Shrink Item Spell?

Thanks all.
(by paragraph)
2. Mainly a FAQ explanation that says you can't resize it mid-air and/or the agreement within your gaming group not to abuse shrink item as a weapon. I mean the falling object damage rules get nuts when combined with this. With the right interpretation of the spell (i.e., not the one from the FAQ) and a group crazy enough to let this slide then yes it causes crazy falling object damage.

3. Since it is not clearly explained (note: lack of explanation is NOT the same as RAW says you can do it) you might think it is 50d6 damage. But by RAW total immersion in acid does 10d6 damage and 50 pints of acid is only 6 gallons, or a little under 1 cubic foot of acid. So it's not even close to total immersion. I prefer to go with the explanation that you can't be more "splashed with acid" than "splashed with acid" and it still deals 1d6 as always, but perhaps to a larger area. Ditto for alchemist fire and being "on fire". Such mundane things are not a big deal to high level adventurers. Regardless of your interpretation you are getting less than 10d6 damage, by RAW, and probably a small fraction of that.

4. Rules here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#siegeEngines. Anyone with a good BAB and int can fire a catapult alongside the best, but reloading it takes a couple DC 15 profession (siege engineer) checks.

5. The spell always seemed vague here. I mean "a fire and it's fuel", one example given in the spell, could be several logs and an intangible flame. IMO whatever you can convince your DM is a single object is fair game. If you bundled the ammo into a single wad and pre-loaded it into the catapult, I'd say it's all one object.