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Shenanigans
2010-09-20, 10:56 AM
So, with a monk who has this ability, their unarmed strike is treated as adamantine for the purposes of bypassing DR and hardness. However, the fists/elbows/knees/etc. are not made of adamantine, so wouldn't the monk be taking damage from, say, punching through a brick wall?

I ask this because my monk once punched the party out of a tight spot through a baddie-operated drilling device of some type, and the DM ruled, fairly I think, that my fists would be bloodied and cut (stumps?) after I did so. Now my monk had fast healing, so it worked out ok, but what do you folks think? Did we just miss rules that are already out there?

Killer Angel
2010-09-20, 11:02 AM
Bypassing the obvious answer that monks don't need further nerfing, point to your DM any video of real world martial artists that effectively break some bricks with their bare fingers, without being hurt in the process.

dsmiles
2010-09-20, 11:09 AM
Bypassing the obvious answer that monks don't need further nerfing, point to your DM any video of real world martial artists that effectively break some bricks with their bare fingers, without being hurt in the process.

+1 to this. I'd never rule that a monk got hurt from punching something after gaining Ki Strike: Adamantine.

Dresil
2010-09-20, 11:20 AM
Taken from the SRD:

Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.


Ki Strike (Su)

At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.


Taken from this, her unarmed attacks are treated as ki, not just her hands. A monk can use any part of his or her body to make an unarmed strike and be lawful, magic, and adamantine.

Side note: May be awkward in the bedroom.

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-20, 11:27 AM
The strikes are treated as adamantine for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction, not hardness.

So, RAW, they don't get past the hardness, and the DM should feel free to throw some damage the monk's way.

It applies to ALL of the monk's unarmed strikes, so if the DM houserules that it treats your unarmed attacks as Adamantine, so you can sunder with an elbow-drop, then go wild.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 11:30 AM
Would an adamantine hammer break down by breaking something else? When it comes to attacking, a monk with Ki Strike Adamantine can attack as if his body was adamantine. The guy's kick is literally as hard as adamantine, regardless of the actual material. Having it break down because "it's not actually adamantine" makes no sense.

If you think "something nonmagical shouldn't be like that"....well, two little surprises for you
1) Extraordinary abilities break reality and aren't magical.
2) Ki Strike is supernatural.



The strikes are treated as adamantine for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction, not hardness.

So, RAW, they don't get past the hardness, and the DM should feel free to throw some damage the monk's way.

It applies to ALL of the monk's unarmed strikes, so if the DM houserules that it treats your unarmed attacks as Adamantine, so you can sunder with an elbow-drop, then go wild.

Read again. It beats hardness. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#kiStrike) Mr Mechanophilic Monk can crush the iron golem.

2xMachina
2010-09-20, 11:32 AM
RAW? You can attack the adamantine spike with your throat and not take any damage. Even if you're just a kid with no class lvls.

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-20, 11:56 AM
Would an adamantine hammer break down by breaking something else? When it comes to attacking, a monk with Ki Strike Adamantine can attack as if his body was adamantine. The guy's kick is literally as hard as adamantine, regardless of the actual material. Having it break down because "it's not actually adamantine" makes no sense.

If you think "something nonmagical shouldn't be like that"....well, two little surprises for you
1) Extraordinary abilities break reality and aren't magical.
2) Ki Strike is supernatural.




Read again. It beats hardness. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#kiStrike) Mr Mechanophilic Monk can crush the iron golem.

I am corrected!

Thank you for pointing that out. I read the v3.5 PHB cover to cover when I first started playing it, and since then have relied almost entirely on memory. Seeing as it's been...four years?..a long time since I last played a Monk. The errors abound!


His natural weapons are as dense as adamantine, give that monk four double-shots of expresso, set him to 'vibrate', and watch him carve you a path out with Flurry of Blows on the wall.

WinWin
2010-09-20, 12:07 PM
Sorry to bring real world physics into this discussion, but a martial artist breaking boards tend to only damage their hands when they fail to break something.

Something to do with every action having an equal and opposite reaction. The force from the blow is redirected back into the point of contact. Even a successful break might sting, but an unsuccessful one is really going to hurt.

Additionally, the martial artist usually has years of conditioning. This means they are more tolerant of pain in their fists. The skin becomes thicker and calloused, muscles harder and bones become more dense over time.

For a D&D game, making these abilities supernatural means that a player can suspend all disbelief when roleplaying their character punching through Tarrasques and the like.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 12:10 PM
Sorry to bring real world physics into this discussion, but a martial artist breaking boards tend to only damage their hands when they fail to break something.

Something to do with every action having an equal and opposite reaction. The force from the blow is redirected back into the point of contact. Even a successful break might sting, but an unsuccessful one is really going to hurt.

Additionally, the martial artist usually has years of conditioning. This means they are more tolerant of pain in their fists. The skin becomes thicker and calloused, muscles harder and bones become more dense over time.

For a D&D game, making these abilities supernatural means that a player can suspend all disbelief when roleplaying their character punching through Tarrasques and the like.

Amusingly, extraordinary abilities already defenestrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) disbelief (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower).

dsmiles
2010-09-20, 12:11 PM
For a D&D game, making these abilities supernatural means that a player can suspend all disbelief when roleplaying their character punching through Tarrasques and the like.

Who would ever want to punch through the Tarrasque? It's all...gooey...inside. That could get messy. :smallyuk:

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-20, 03:52 PM
Who would ever want to punch through the Tarrasque? It's all...gooey...inside. That could get messy. :smallyuk:

Well, the Monk could have been swallowed whole....

holywhippet
2010-09-20, 05:36 PM
Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.


I think that bit is especially relevant. What your DM is effectively doing is applying a sunder weapon result against your fists. But if your fists are treated as being enchanted weapons they get extra hardness and hit points from being "enchanted".

This makes sense to me IMO, ki is supposed to make your body harder to damage when it is focused.

Killer Angel
2010-09-21, 06:19 AM
Sorry to bring real world physics into this discussion, but a martial artist breaking boards tend to only damage their hands when they fail to break something.


Shenanigans' DM didn't care about the success or failure.


Additionally, the martial artist usually a 16th lev. monk has years of conditioning. This means they are more tolerant of pain in their fists. The skin becomes thicker and calloused, muscles harder and bones become more dense over time, 'til the point they become hard as Adamantine.

Fixed for you. :smallamused:



For a D&D game, making these abilities supernatural means that a player can suspend all disbelief when roleplaying their character punching through Tarrasques and the like.

In the same way you can take tons of damage from giants throwing huge stones, but your armor didn't suffer any scratch and you hadn't to repair it after any combat?
But in this case, you don't have to suspend any disbelief. The idea of monks is that they are mystical people, with rigorous mind and body training, able to push their own body to limits unapproachable by any human.
So yeah, if I punch a wall, I hurt myself. If a monk punches a wall, the wall crumbles.
I expect it. Otherwise, it breaks the flavour and the inner verisimilitude of the game.

Shenanigans
2010-09-21, 09:08 AM
Thanks for the responses folks. These comments all make sense to me; it was just the RAW that the DM was going by.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 09:14 AM
For an in-universe explanation, combine the supernaturally trained hardness of body with precise targeting. All objects have weaknesses, points where a strike will do more damage through a chain reaction. A monk, or an Adept using Mountain Hammer (wherein I debuted this in character), can see those weaknesses. They can follow the makeup of the material, and see where the seams (grain in wood, impurities in metal, etc) meet. Striking here produces maximum effect.

(I like badass normals and awesomeness via analysis.)

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-21, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the responses folks. These comments all make sense to me; it was just the RAW that the DM was going by.

No it wasn't. Not at all. The RAW says nothing about taking damage from sundering objects or attacking monsters - so you don't.

What your DM was doing is called "making up a house rule". Which is fine, but it's not RAW.

Shenanigans
2010-09-21, 11:12 AM
No it wasn't. Not at all. The RAW says nothing about taking damage from sundering objects or attacking monsters - so you don't.

What your DM was doing is called "making up a house rule". Which is fine, but it's not RAW.Right you are. I think the biggest problem is that the monk's unarmed strikes are "treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR and bypassing hardness" but not for resisting damage...the lack of additional wording there made my DM pause a bit.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-21, 11:14 AM
Thanks for the responses folks. These comments all make sense to me; it was just the RAW that the DM was going by.

That isn't RAW. Raw is rules as written. You mean RAI: what you DM interpreted as rules.
As a DM he can houseule if he likes, but it only changes what rules you follow but not the books (RAW is the same).

Hint: no attacker takes damage when sundering/attacking another object. Only the object takes damage (if sunder correctly).

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-21, 11:26 AM
Right you are. I think the biggest problem is that the monk's unarmed strikes are "treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR and bypassing hardness" but not for resisting damage...the lack of additional wording there made my DM pause a bit.

That doesn't make a difference.

You don't take damage when sundering. Simple as that.

Shenanigans
2010-09-21, 11:35 AM
That doesn't make a difference.

You don't take damage when sundering. Simple as that.Yes, I understand...I already agreed with you. I was simply trying to explain my DM's thinking. He made the mistake of trying to inject D&D with more realism than it could handle.

He also tried to add facing at one point...that ended quickly. :)

Killer Angel
2010-09-21, 11:44 AM
That isn't RAW. Raw is rules as written. You mean RAI: what you DM interpreted as rules.


I don't think it's neither RAI.
I highly doubt it's implied (but not written) by the rules that a ki-striking monk will end a combat with hurting hands...

This is simply a (very bad) houserule.

Greenish
2010-09-21, 11:50 AM
Right you are. I think the biggest problem is that the monk's unarmed strikes are "treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR and bypassing hardness" but not for resisting damage...the lack of additional wording there made my DM pause a bit.No material specifies "resisting damage" from being used to hit stuff, because there's no damage to resist. You can keep hitting an adamantine door with a wooden staff as long as you wish (and if you had enough damage, you'd eventually break it too).

Optimator
2010-09-21, 02:47 PM
I would never make a Monk take damage from punching objects. He's at least level freaking 16. 16! Think about what this means in terms of "realism". A martial artist of such ridiculous extraordinary skill that they would appear otherworldly and supernatural, even when not actually using SUpernatural abilities. Does this kind of super hero get hurt from punching metal? Apparently, now that the Monk has the adamantine-grade ki, normal metals don't even slow them down.

El Dorado
2010-09-21, 04:35 PM
I would never make a Monk take damage from punching objects. He's at least level freaking 16. 16! Think about what this means in terms of "realism". A martial artist of such ridiculous extraordinary skill that they would appear otherworldly and supernatural, even when not actually using SUpernatural abilities. Does this kind of super hero get hurt from punching metal? Apparently, now that the Monk has the adamantine-grade ki, normal metals don't even slow them down.

Plus, think about all of the stuff he had to get through to reach 16th level. . . saving his wholeness of body for kinda bad situations (not super-bad, because the healing is sorta meager); searching high and low for 5 story buildings so he could get the most of his slow fall; hoping the hot succubus doesn't give him the supernatural clap. . . :smallwink: