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Din Tempre
2010-09-20, 12:17 PM
Edit: It might be best to just skip to the bottom of the second page, as everything up to that point has made me reconsider a lot.


I am joining my first 4e game and would like some help making this character work. There is already a Wizard, Artificer, Ranger, and Battlemind, so I have some room to experiment.

I want to try and make a shadowdancer type hybrid, focusing on close range stealth and small teleports, hopefully hitting hard enough that enemies would try targeting my character despite the difficulty to pin down.

We are starting at level 2 and I have no idea how high we're going. It's also in the Dark Sun campaign world in the desert if that helps. I was going to go veiled alliance even though we have some templars in the group.

Right now I am toying with these ability scores:
Str: 8
Con: 12
Dex: 16+2
Int: 16+2
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

And these skills/feats:
Acrobatics
Thievery
Arcana
Stealth
History
Intelligent Blademaster
Hybrid Talent - Shade Form

Inherent bonuses are also in effect. So overall, is this build any good as is, and can it be improved?

Urpriest
2010-09-20, 12:43 PM
Remind me: are there flat-out no Avengers in Dark Sun? It occurs to me that it would be much easier to build this character as a Swordmage|Avenger or Avenger|Assassin.

Christopher K.
2010-09-20, 12:46 PM
Avenger's power source is divine, no? That causes issues since there are no gods in Dark Sun.

Din Tempre
2010-09-20, 12:58 PM
Yes, no divine power sources period unfortunately.

DragonBaneDM
2010-09-20, 01:55 PM
Hm... Having Con as your ride for both certainly helps. Buff that when you get a chance to at least a +2.

mobdrazhar
2010-09-20, 04:11 PM
Remind me: are there flat-out no Avengers in Dark Sun? It occurs to me that it would be much easier to build this character as a Swordmage|Avenger or Avenger|Assassin.

Avenger|Assassin would work for this but the only way that he could gte away with it in DS is if his DM let him use char classes as a metagame concept ala 3.5

Kurald Galain
2010-09-20, 04:17 PM
I am joining my first 4e game and would like some help making this character work.
I would strongly recommend to everyone to not play a hybrid for their first character. Unlike pretty much everything else in 4E, hybrids are quite easy to mess up and end up being ineffective at both their roles.

If you want a shadowdancer, either play a straight assassin, or a feylock. Swordmage doesn't add anything to the concept.

Hzurr
2010-09-20, 04:34 PM
I'd echo Kurald Galain, and actually recommend just going pure assassin. You still get the small teleports (albiet in people's shadows), you're doing good damage, can do melee or ranged powers; and when the going gets tough you can teleport away and go insubstantial. I really don't see what Swordmage could add to this, and the classes really don't synergize very well.

Din Tempre
2010-09-22, 02:17 AM
How does this look?


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Noct Tempre, level 2
Eladrin, Swordmage|Assassin
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Ensnarement
Hybrid Assassin: Hybrid Assassin Will

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14.


AC: 16 Fort: 13 Reflex: 14 Will: 16
HP: 29 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
History +11, Acrobatics +11, Intimidate +8, Bluff +8, Arcana +11, Stealth +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering, Endurance +2, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception, Religion +4, Streetwise +3, Thievery +4, Athletics +3

FEATS
Level 1: Twilight Adept
Level 2: Arcane Familiar (Cat)

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Executioner's Noose
Hybrid at-will 1: Sword Burst
Hybrid encounter 1: Gloom Thief
Hybrid daily 1: Targeted for Death
Hybrid utility 2: Price of Ensnarement

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Dagger (4), Garrote, Hand Crossbow, Crossbow Bolts (40), Broadsword, Camouflaged Clothing, Thieves' Tools, Woodwind
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


The goal is to optimize solos, stealth, mobility, and skills. Next I am planning on adding the MC:rouge thievery, the swordmage expanded spellbook, garrote proficiency, and the hybrid path feats.

Any suggestions to make this build work with flavor over power?

Edit: Apparently this build is garbage for the intended role... back to the drawing board.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-22, 03:42 AM
The goal is to optimize solos, stealth, mobility, and skills.
In that case, might I recommend the Rogue class? No hybrids necessary, the rogue has it all (besides, strikers tend not to synergize well in a hybrid).

Start with dex 18 +2 racial, get Deft Strike as an at-will and Tumble as an utility power, use your first feat on Skill Focus: Stealth, and your second on Ranger multiclass for extra damage and a bonus skill. Voila, solos, stealth, mobility and skills.

Din Tempre
2010-09-22, 09:20 AM
The only problem is I wanted to run Int as a secondary, but that is a dump for assassin and rouge... I thought hybrid would at least use it for something as opposed to nothing. Is there a way to make a stealth-focused swordmage?

Kurald Galain
2010-09-22, 09:24 AM
The only problem is I wanted to run Int as a secondary,
Why? It's just a number. If you want a smart character, just write on your sheet that he is smart. You don't need an int score for that.


Is there a way to make a stealth-focused swordmage?
Not particularly. But Martial Power 2 has a rogue build that gets a few int-based powers.

Tengu_temp
2010-09-22, 10:15 AM
Why? It's just a number. If you want a smart character, just write on your sheet that he is smart. You don't need an int score for that.


I've never met a DM who would agree with this point of view. 4e ability scores are more abstract than in previous edition, but they still are supposed to be a representation of your character's talents in game world.

Din Tempre
2010-09-22, 10:18 AM
Why? It's just a number. If you want a smart character, just write on your sheet that he is smart. You don't need an int score for that.

I didn't realize the scores in 4E were completely abstracted to such a degree. 3.5 bad habit I suppose. So really you're saying in 4E most scores, especially mental, are just a stat block, without a hard relationship to how "smart" the character is in each? It seems like in 3.5, there was a way to use any score for any character, even if it was a suboptimal choice. I am getting the impression there is NO way to make use of a competing stat unless there are specific powers that key off it (zero for assassin, what I actually wanted to play).

Kurald Galain
2010-09-22, 10:23 AM
I've never met a DM who would agree with this point of view. 4e ability scores are more abstract than in previous edition, but they still are supposed to be a representation of your character's talents in game world.
My experience is the opposite. Regardless of system used, I've never met a DM who said that somebody's character wasn't allowed to have some idea because his int score was too low, or that he wasn't allowed to make a good speech because his cha score was too low.

There's plenty of nuances to mental and social character traits that aren't covered by mechanics.

Tengu_temp
2010-09-22, 10:32 AM
I didn't realize the scores in 4E were completely abstracted to such a degree.

They're not. The PHB is clear on the subject, saying things like "Intelligence (Int) describes how well your character learns and reasons" or "Each of your ability scores is a number that measures the power of that ability. A character with a 16 Strength is much stronger than a character with a 6 Strength. A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average".

Kurald Galain
2010-09-22, 10:36 AM
They're not. The PHB is clear on the subject, saying things like "Intelligence (Int) describes how well your character learns and reasons" or "Each of your ability scores is a number that measures the power of that ability. A character with a 16 Strength is much stronger than a character with a 6 Strength. A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average".
Yes, but all of that is fluff. Fluff is mutable.

The mechanics for learning are experience points and feats. So a low-int character mechanically learns as fast as a high-int character. The mechanics for lifting things are a skill challenge, in which a low-str character can participate just as well as a high-str character (perhaps by using endurance or perception instead).



So really you're saying in 4E most scores, especially mental, are just a stat block, without a hard relationship to how "smart" the character is in each?
How do you define "smart"? If it is a roleplaying matter, then yes, you deal with this (in 4E) by refluffing the abilities you have. If it is mental defenses, well, they key off another attribute anyway. If it is a mental skill challenge, you deal with it by using e.g. endurance or insight instead. Why should a DM arbitrarily disallow certain actions because your int stat is too low?

Tengu_temp
2010-09-22, 10:43 AM
Yes, but all of that is fluff. Fluff is mutable.


Only to an extent. If your character sheet states one thing and you roleplay your character in a different way, than the character's integrity suffers. And that's not good - crunch and fluff are supposed to reinforce each other, not contradict.

Din Tempre
2010-09-22, 12:09 PM
In 3.5 you could optimize to gain a crunch benefit out of a fluff decision (such as a smart fighter). Sure TO would be stronger, but the point is CO was possible to maintain a useful role.

My problem is I see no way to get a mechanical benefit out of high intelligence with a pure assassin, and the hybrid has been analyzed as so far behind the curve as to be non-contributive.

Any suggestions?

Thought: is this just due to the vast swath of options in 3.5? It feels like a core mechanic difference, but do I just have the wrong expectations?

Tengu_temp
2010-09-22, 12:19 PM
Get Martial Power 2, play a dex/int rogue. The int build focuses on jumping from shadow to shadow and staying hidden all the time, so it fits your concept. You can hybrid with swordmage or assassin if you want to.

Mando Knight
2010-09-22, 01:30 PM
Thought: is this just due to the vast swath of options in 3.5? It feels like a core mechanic difference, but do I just have the wrong expectations?

You've got some of the wrong expectations. A Swordmage is a Defender, and as such is only extremely rarely the sneaky type. They have good skirmishing ability, but nothing to help with stealth. Assassins are stealth-based by nature, and blend best with other stealthy classes, particularly Rogue.

If you're going for a Duskblade/Shadowdancer-type character who jumps across shadows, distracting enemies as they go, pure Assassin (especially the Night Stalker build) is the best fit, possibly with Swordmage or Warlock multiclass for teleportation powers, though they have sufficient mobility themselves.

Meta
2010-09-23, 02:15 PM
You've got some of the wrong expectations. A Swordmage is a Defender, and as such is only extremely rarely the sneaky type. They have good skirmishing ability, but nothing to help with stealth. Assassins are stealth-based by nature, and blend best with other stealthy classes, particularly Rogue.

If you're going for a Duskblade/Shadowdancer-type character who jumps across shadows, distracting enemies as they go, pure Assassin (especially the Night Stalker build) is the best fit, possibly with Swordmage or Warlock multiclass for teleportation powers, though they have sufficient mobility themselves.

The new executioner does pretty much everything the night stalker can do better :smallfrown:

Definite essentials power creep but the Assassin was pretty low on the totem pole

Hzurr
2010-09-23, 02:21 PM
The new executioner does pretty much everything the night stalker can do better :smallfrown:

Definite essentials power creep but the Assassin was pretty low on the totem pole

maybe on a sheer damage scale, but Essentials Assassin don't get the shadow-teleport power, or the "I go etherial" power that standard Assassins get, both of which can be huge in combat (plus really fun).

Meta
2010-09-23, 02:24 PM
maybe on a sheer damage scale, but Essentials Assassin don't get the shadow-teleport power, or the "I go etherial" power that standard Assassins get, both of which can be huge in combat (plus really fun).

Hmm, if teleports and sneaky are desired, I'd recommend an Avenger.

Din Tempre
2010-10-06, 02:59 AM
Hmm, if teleports and sneaky are desired, I'd recommend an Avenger.

Avenger is a no-go, there is no divine power source in dark sun.

I am really torn between the rogue and assassin at the moment. I really like the shrouds (delayed damage for spike, especially good for the first round), but the small weapons of the rogue fits much better. I am trying to work out a hybrid (striker/striker=bad, but I am now the 6th member so survival through being harder to hit than someone else); any further input would be appreciated.

WitchSlayer
2010-10-06, 03:47 AM
Couldn't you ask your DM to be an Avenger for a Sorcerer King? I'm pretty sure divine power sources are allowed that way, or maybe that was just the Penny Arcade DnD podcast

Kurald Galain
2010-10-06, 04:37 AM
I am really torn between the rogue and assassin at the moment. I really like the shrouds (delayed damage for spike, especially good for the first round), but the small weapons of the rogue fits much better. I am trying to work out a hybrid (striker/striker=bad, but I am now the 6th member so survival through being harder to hit than someone else); any further input would be appreciated.
Well...

A striker|striker hybrid may be bad, but a striker/striker multiclass is quite good. So play a rogue, take the assassin multiclass feat to use shrouds, and note you can already teleport as an eladrin. Take some defensive utility powers to make yourself hard to hit.

Note that rogues are among the most damaging strikers, and assassins among the least damaging strikers.

Leolo
2010-10-06, 06:57 AM
Well...

A striker|striker hybrid may be bad, but a striker/striker multiclass is quite good. So play a rogue, take the assassin multiclass feat to use shrouds, and note you can already teleport as an eladrin. Take some defensive utility powers to make yourself hard to hit.

Note that rogues are among the most damaging strikers, and assassins among the least damaging strikers.

Well, this is not neccessary true. It depends on how often the assassin can use his shrouds (technically it also depends on how often a rogue can get combat advantage, but we could ignore this because most times the rogue will have it. There are also some other points ignored that would reduce the rogues damage, for example wasted damage on minions or minor opponents. A Assassin can stack up his bonus damage, a rogue can not)

A heroic tier rogue with sly flourish using a rapier and backstabber feat and Combat advantage is doing about 13.5+DEX+CHA+Misc damage per hit. Assuming DEX 20 and CH 16 and a +1 magic weapon he will land 3 of 5 hits over 5 rounds this results in about 22.5*3=67.5 damage

A assassin with the same stats, using a fullblade and shadow storm is doing about 6.5+5+3+1+1=16.5 damage per hit. Without his shrouds. So the difference of his damage to the rogues damage over 5 rounds and 3 hits (resulting in 49.5 damage) is about 18 points of damage. (It may be less, because shadow storm can add more than 1 damage point, but let's assume the maximum gap)

That is the difference a assassin has to fill with his shrouds. As his shrouds do 3.5 damage he would need about 5 shrouds to fullfill this. Even without any additional shrouds by using feats this is possible, because you can build them up in front of the combat. With additional shrouds it is easy. For example you could have 4 shrouds build up previosly, attack, build up a shroud, add a shroud with killer's insight (end of first round), add a shroud via racial feat, add a normal shroud, attack and you have 8 shrouds invoked after the first two rounds. (Or if you use an action point 7 after the first round)

You can get additional shrouds with multiple options. A good target line is to invoke 8-10 on heroic tier per combat, 11-13 on paragon tier and above this on epic tier.

And of course this would result in more damage than the rogue. If you significantly cross this line (for example by being a soul thief / perfect slayer assassin) you could also catch the ranger (ignoring infinite damage cheese). But Assassins are harder to play. You have to know your options better than the rogue, especially because of the assassins power focussed defensive concept.

Tengu_temp
2010-10-06, 07:08 AM
When comparing the damage-dealing ability of classes, you should should take more than just at-will powers under consideration. Especially at paragon levels, when most of your attacks in a battle are encounter powers.

Leolo
2010-10-06, 07:21 AM
Yes, but i wanted to compare the most easiest things.

If you include encounter or daily powers it is more complex - but in fact it would be better for the assassin to compare them.

For example the daily power targeted for death increases your damage per combat by about 5 shrouds or 17.5 average damage points plus it's 3d8+Dex (+maybe CHA) damage.

A rogues trick strike is doing 3d8+Dex damage, too - without such a rider.

The best things a rogue has to increase his damage are some minor action attacks. That are great, but in fact assassins have some additional options to increase damage, for example assassin exclusive feats regarding poison.

I do not want to say that an assassin will always do more damage than a rogue. But it is also not true to say it's damage is lower, because a well played assassin will do at least about the same damage than a well played rogue most of the time.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-06, 07:24 AM
A heroic tier rogue with sly flourish using a rapier and backstabber feat and Combat advantage is doing about 13.5+DEX+CHA+Misc damage per hit. Assuming DEX 20 and CH 16 and a +1 magic weapon he will land 3 of 5 hits over 5 rounds this results in about 22.5*3=67.5 damage
You are overlooking several things:

A rogue that lands 3 out of 5 hits is doing something seriously wrong. Rogues tend to hit on 4+.
As of recent errata, rogues can sneak attack once per turn, not per round. Every opportunity attack, every warlord's command, every extra attack from Riposte Strike means another chance at sneak attack.
You're assuming Artful Dodger, whereas the Brutal Scoundrel rogue build is more powerful.
A recurring problem with assassins is that you shroud an enemy twice, and then somebody else kills it. Whenever this happens, your shrouds are lost.
And finally, rogues have a much better power selection than assassins. Basically what Tengu said.

Leolo
2010-10-06, 07:43 AM
You are overlooking several things:

A rogue that lands 3 out of 5 hits is doing something seriously wrong. Rogues tend to hit on 4+.


I would say it depends on the optimization level, but yes - many chars (and rogues, too) can hit on very low numbers. But as i do not have included the assassins shroud damage on a miss it does not really matters.



As of recent errata, rogues can sneak attack once per turn, not per round. Every opportunity attack, every warlord's command, every extra attack from Riposte Strike means another chance at sneak attack.


Sure, but this is also true for the assassin who could always invoke his shrouds multiple times per round (in fact a assassin could invoke them multiple times per turn)

Nevertheless - this is a increase of the rogues power, of course.



You're assuming Artful Dodger, whereas the Brutal Scoundrel rogue build is more powerful.


Maybe - but it would not be that hard to make a calculation for the brutal scoundrel, too. The point is the same for this example as for the artful dodger example. There is always a gap between the damage of the rogue character and the damage of the assassin character (without shrouds) that can be used to calculate how many shrouds a character would have to invoke to do the same damage.



A recurring problem with assassins is that you shroud an enemy twice, and then somebody else kills it. Whenever this happens, your shrouds are lost.


Well, that seems to be bad group tactic. It would be the same if another character kills the opponent the rogue has combat advantage against. The calculation above has assumed that the rogue would have always combat advantage, and never has to attack a minion. What is a good assumption for those calculation as this is theoretically. But in practise a rogue will also have situations where his bonus damage is wasted or not even existent.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-06, 08:05 AM
And of course this would result in more damage than the rogue. If you significantly cross this line (for example by being a soul thief / perfect slayer assassin) you could also catch the ranger (ignoring infinite damage cheese). But Assassins are harder to play. You have to know your options better than the rogue, especially because of the assassins power focussed defensive concept.

It's possible to get infinite damage as a ranger? :smalleek:

And to the OP, yes, stats not powering your abilities are more or less useless in 4e.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-06, 08:35 AM
I would say it depends on the optimization level, but yes - many chars (and rogues, too) can hit on very low numbers.
The point is that, given the same level of optimization, rogues are more accurate than assassins.


Sure, but this is also true for the assassin who could always invoke his shrouds multiple times per round
And that doesn't help at all. The limit to an assassin is how often you can place your shrouds. The rogue has no such limit.


There is always a gap between the damage of the rogue character and the damage of the assassin character (without shrouds)
Yes, but there is still a gap between the rogue and the assassin with shrouds.


Well, that seems to be bad group tactic. It would be the same if another character kills the opponent the rogue has combat advantage against.
No, it wouldn't be. The assassin has made an investment (in shrouding the enemy). The rogue doesn't have to do that.

Rogue advantages:

+1 to +3 bonus to hit compared to the assassin (not counting CA)
2d8+4 bonus damage per turn, vs the assassin's 1d6 to 2d6 per round
Several out-of-turn or minor-action attacks (e.g. Riposte Strike, Low Slash)
Much better power selection (three books and several Dragon articles)
Much better paragon paths (e.g. Daggermaster)
Better synergy with leader characters

This is why the rogue is a top-tier striker, and the assassin is not.

Leolo
2010-10-06, 08:42 AM
Well - only if you call those things rangers and not "theoretical but unplayable optimization test". But some twin strike was involved last time i read one of those builds. The main trick was to get free attacks from criticals that might result (depending on your crit chance per round) on more criticals that grant additional free attacks again. (And so on)

As said above... "i smell cheese nearby!"

Some addition to a point above:


A recurring problem with assassins is that you shroud an enemy twice, and then somebody else kills it. Whenever this happens, your shrouds are lost.

If you lose 2 shrouds this would mean you have planned to invoke 3 shrouds, as you put another shroud every round on the target (before you attack). So this would be the "i invoke my shrouds every 3 rounds" tactic. If you fear loosing shrouds you should invoke them every second round, so that you only loose 1 shroud. If you put additional shrouds on the target do it before your own attack, so they can not be wasted by the situation mentioned above.

Leolo
2010-10-06, 08:59 AM
Rogue advantages:

+1 to +3 bonus to hit compared to the assassin (not counting CA)
2d8+4 bonus damage per turn, vs the assassin's 1d6 to 2d6 per round
Several out-of-turn or minor-action attacks (e.g. Riposte Strike, Low Slash)
Much better power selection (three books and several Dragon articles)
Much better paragon paths (e.g. Daggermaster)
Better synergy with leader characters

This is why the rogue is a top-tier striker, and the assassin is not.
[/QUOTE]

I do not really see where you get the +3 bonus to hit with your rogue. You get +1 if you use a dagger. More than this? Well, you can attack reflex (the assassin can attack it, too).

But look at your bonus damage. You said 2d8+4 as the rogues bonus damage. This is true if you invest one feat and have a build that allows to add your strenght to sneak attack, and have strenght 18.

But how often will the rogue do this sneak attack damage per combat? 3 times? 4 times? It depends on the combat length of course, but if you assume 5 rounds it will be not much more.

A Assassin build allows to add Charisma to damage not only if you have combat advantage, so we have +4 with CA against +4 without CA. And you can easily invoke your shrouds per combat 10+ times.

Mando Knight
2010-10-06, 10:43 AM
But how often will the rogue do this sneak attack damage per combat? 3 times? 4 times? It depends on the combat length of course, but if you assume 5 rounds it will be not much more.

The smart rogue gets it every single frickin' turn. Flanking isn't that hard to do (especially with the Rogue's mobility, even without the Artful Dodger ability), and the Rogue doesn't even need to do that to get CA: more than half the Rogue powers inflict some kind of easy-CA status, and that's not counting the "oh, yeah... if you didn't have CA, apply Sneak Attack anyway" powers or the "You get CA against guys like this, too" feats.

Leolo
2010-10-06, 11:06 AM
Yes. I would say that about 80%-90% of the rogues attacks will be sneak attacks, and only 10% of them will be against minions or similar opponents where your damage does not matter. And about 70-80% of them will hit.

The numbers differ, obviously. But if you calculate this to 5 rounds with 5-6 attacks this will result in about 3-4 sneak attacks per combat.

In the calculation above those things where ignored - 100% Combat Advantage was assumed, because this is a better calculation base and not depending on the situation, and therefore "wasted" extra damage from sneak attacks against minions or nearly dead opponents or opponents that died before you could use your combat advantage are also ignored

I just wanted to point out in the quoted sentence that it is not really a good argument to say that the assassins target may die before shrouds are invoked - if you ignore that a rogue may have the same problem.

You have mentioned powers that grant CA until the end of the next turn. If you place such things on an opponent he might die, too and the same way an assassin might loose a shroud the rogue might loose those extra damage from sneak attack in this situation because he has to build up new combat advantage either by another power or other ways. The effort previosly made is wasted.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-06, 11:35 AM
It's possible to get infinite damage as a ranger? :smalleek:
Not to my knowledge, but the ranger is easily the most damaging striker barring extremely cheesy combos.


The smart rogue gets it every single frickin' turn.
Absolutely. This is part of the fun of playing a rogue. Assuming a five-round combat, a well-played rogue can indeed do sneak attack damage seven times; more if there's a warlord in the party.

Din Tempre
2010-10-06, 01:32 PM
PEACH:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Changeling, Rogue|Assassin
Hybrid Assassin: Hybrid Assassin Fortitude

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14.


AC: 17 Fort: 13 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 32 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Insight +8, Stealth +10, Bluff +11, Thievery +10, Intimidate +9, Athletics +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +2, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance +2, Heal +1, History +2, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +2, Streetwise +4

FEATS
Level 1: Heart of the Blade
Level 2: Arcane Familiar

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Shadow Storm
Hybrid at-will 1: Piercing Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Shadow Darts
Hybrid daily 1: Targeted for Death
Hybrid utility 2: Master of Deceit
Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Dagger, Hand Crossbow, Camouflaged Clothing, Disguise Kit, Ki Focus, Thieves' Tools, Woodwind
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


I chose to dip swordmage for flavor, skill training, access to a familiar and weapon as implement. Especially in Dark Sun where magic items are very rare, having one item to enchant vs two seems worth a feat and economical. Swordbond could actually be useful for sneaking a weapon in separate from a person. Clearly I am trading power for flavor, but I plan to pick up all the good stuff as the character progresses.

Planned feats to level 10:
4 - Roguish Killer 6 - Hybrid Talent (Shade Form) 8 - Backstabber 10 - Light Blade Expertise

So, can this work, or did I again make something too weak?

Edit: In case it's not obvious, the targeted niche is infiltration, espionage, and assassination. I think I want a cat familiar for unlimited range scouting and messaging.

Tengu_temp
2010-10-06, 01:39 PM
Hybrid assassin|rogue pays too much and gets too little in response. Just stick to one of these classes, maybe multiclass into the other.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-06, 06:13 PM
I would strongly recommend to everyone to not play a hybrid for their first character. Unlike pretty much everything else in 4E, hybrids are quite easy to mess up and end up being ineffective at both their roles.

If you want a shadowdancer, either play a straight assassin, or a feylock. Swordmage doesn't add anything to the concept. Otherwise, might I recommend the Rogue class? No hybrids necessary, the rogue has it all (besides, strikers tend not to synergize well in a hybrid).

Start with dex 18 +2 racial, get Deft Strike as an at-will and Tumble as an utility power, use your first feat on Skill Focus: Stealth, and your second on Ranger multiclass for extra damage and a bonus skill. Voila, solos, stealth, mobility and skills.

Reluctance
2010-10-06, 08:59 PM
Assassins can already use weapons as ki focuses, while rogues don't use implements in the first place. Swordbond requires line of effect. (It's handy in DS where weapon breaking is a distinct possibility, but more gimmicky than anything else.) In short, swordmage adds practically nothing to your build. Hybriding just to fit in the triple class is a classic example of the spreading yourself too thin that people have been mentioning.

"Infiltration, espionage and assassination" should not be what you build your 4e character to be all about. Feel free to play any striker with Stealth and other useful sneaky-type skills, but 4e is decidedly a team game. The guy who sneaks off alone to kill a target is either doing it entirely through fluff and skill challenges (at which point your class means little), or else is solo challenging a target that's balanced against him and four other guys. Build your character around how you see yourself aiding in combat, and then express your sneaky solo nature via skill training.

If you want more direction on your character, make a decidedly illegal one as a thought experiment. Look at the rogue, assassin and swordmage power lists, and pick the powers you find most appealing without worrying about keeping your selection balanced. Classes exist primarily as power lists, so a more bottom-up design might suit you better than seeing classes as concepts and wanting to dip from many conceptual wells.

Mando Knight
2010-10-06, 11:15 PM
Swordbond requires line of effect.

Oh, really? Got a quote on that? Is Distant Swordbond utterly useless? The call seems to me to be closer to a no-line-of-sight teleportation effect: you'll rarely see your blade from a mile off (the maximum range for Swordbond), and even at that distance, it only takes a minor action to call it to your hand. If it's not teleporting or such, then there's little else to describe it as.

Reluctance
2010-10-06, 11:59 PM
Technically speaking it's not a teleportation effect, and also technically speaking it says nothing about not needing LoS. Although practically, I think I got someone's attempt to play wise with RAW stuck in my head.

Doesn't change the fact that while it's a cute flavor ability, the feat doesn't add anything to his actual power. Or that attempting to sneak off alone to stick a knife in someone's back goes counter to 4e design philosophy and should not be the driving concept behind a build.

Din Tempre
2010-10-07, 12:28 AM
The point wasn't to be sneaking off alone, the point was just to open with spike damage (shrouds do this really well). Two feats for a familiar is what I was really after, skill training and a sword trick were just icing. With the number of feats in 4e, I thought it might not kill to burn/waste 2, the explanation was more like rationalization.

Assassin is a bit weak on the damage, especially with small weapons. Rogue is high on the damage, especially with small weapons. I prefer the assassin class and most of the abilities, with a couple nice rogue ones as well. Roguish killer means I get the effect similar to 4 shrouds on the miss anyway. Dumping the SM allows bumping the Dex and Cha 2 ( +1 bonus), but then I am really squishy with low Con. I might drop the Rogue, but not the SM. I *think* I can get better damage this way. If I can get at least similar I am fine, otherwise I guess pure assassin?

Reluctance
2010-10-07, 01:47 AM
Assassin may not be top tier, but a straight classed assassin is easily viable. Even one who spends two feats and his multiclass for flavor purposes. It's the part where you hybridized to triple class and spread your stat points around too broadly that gave off the jack of all trades, master of none vibe.

"Small weapon" need not equal dagger. Rapiers are military, thanks to Essentials. A longsword or bastard sword could be easily described as a thin, elegant weapon. And with minimal refluffing, you could describe your swordbonded blade as solidified shadowstuff you can form or disperse at will. If anything, making a dagger a workable default weapon for a non-rogue can be trickier than rationalizing a heavier weapon into something fitting.

I kinda want to see this character as a straight classed assassin. Alternately, if your DM is amenable, see if you can re-source avengers as psionic. The main point is to remember just how mutable 4e fluff is, rather than trying to tie yourself to all the disparate game elements that have the fluff you want.