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Grommen
2010-09-20, 12:41 PM
Ok so we have us a smite happy Paliden in our mits. Makeing matters worse we are using the Pathfinder Paliden class and it's smite is quickly becoming legendary in its abuse. Others might be used to a melee class doing 290 points of damage at 12th level in one full attack. I'm not! Don't care to argue that point either. Making matters even worse we are playing "A second darkness" adventure path. IT'S FULL OF DEMONS (evil outsiders) Nothing lives for more than a round or two with the "Smite-O-Matic" nearby. Yes I could bury her under a mounten of Demon flesh and kill the beast, tell everyone "Never play that again". But, I like the character. It is by far our strongest character. She is a demon hunter from Mendev, so killing demons is a good thing. Just not in one round.

What I am looking for is this. In my first printing of the book, under the smite evil ability it clearly states "2 points of damage per paliden level delt to evil outsiders". On the SRD it clearly states the same thing, HOWEVER, it adds in "first successful hit only".<----This is a major change in damage output.

What I need is the official Pathfinder errata sheet where they make clear the change. I'm DM'ing this little disaster, I want "First Hit only", but I don't want to be a douche over it and just house rule it this way. Apparently the fine people over at Pathfinder feel the say way so they changed it.

Due to a major headake today I can't seem to find an official Pathfinder Errata PDF to toss in my players face and say "Done". Doing it this way prevents me from a long drawn out argument with players (and with any luck I will not have to kick them in the head).

Thanks in advance for finding me the link.

And yes I know about the SRD, if I have too I will use the SRD as proof that they changed the smite rules.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-20, 12:48 PM
Have you tried adding in enemies that aren't evil? I find that that is a very good way to make smite evil less effective. Having them attack while flying, behind barriers, with traps and/or difficult terrain in the way, or otherwise inaccessible to melee attacks is another good strategem.

Mongoose87
2010-09-20, 12:53 PM
You might be disappointed in that "first hit" business, as I'm fairly sure it still does the standard +class level damage on all the other hits.

lsfreak
2010-09-20, 12:57 PM
Errata is here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources).

As said, it does 2x damage on the first hit, normal damage thereafter (that is, adding level to damage every hit). If you find this is still too much, lower the strength of monsters but up their numbers. The paladin only gets 4 smites a day if she's 12th level.

Mongoose87
2010-09-20, 01:01 PM
How is she doing so much damage per hit, exactly? We can help you to counter her strategy.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 01:03 PM
the extra damage is doubled on first hit, and added normally on all subsequent hits.
The srd is updated. The books are updated. The errata is there. Enjoy.

Oh, and level 12 doing 290 damage on a full attack? Not a representation of how powerful the characters of that level are :p But since you said you're not going to argue with it but still plugged in lots of comments that say otherwise, I add this tiny little bit.

Radar
2010-09-20, 01:07 PM
Battlefield control in as many forms as they come: terrain advantage, chain trippers, casters. Anything that meats the paladin is toast, but you can make it difficult and costly for him to reach his target.

Nero24200
2010-09-20, 01:11 PM
Have you tried adding in enemies that aren't evil? I find that that is a very good way to make smite evil less effective. Having them attack while flying, behind barriers, with traps and/or difficult terrain in the way, or otherwise inaccessible to melee attacks is another good strategem.

Sorry, but I've always hated this train of thought regarding the PF smite. If the smite is overpowered, nerf it, don't simply increase the number of non-evil enemies, especially considering that a paladin has plenty more reason to go hunting evil creatures compared to non-evil. It should be noted as well that in pathfinder adventure paths there are lots of evil creatures. I recall once getting a balde with the holy properties on it.

The DM simply said "feel free to assume it's always working, I'll specifically tell you when you encounter a non-evil creature". That only happened once for the remainder of the campaign.

Secondly, using flying foes or barriers etc screws over all melee classes, it's not a good way of solving the issue, it just paves the way for casters to become more powerful.

@OP as you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of the PF smite. I feel it's far too much. Gamebreaking good against evil foes you can reach whilst being mediocre agaisnt anything else isn't my idea of a balanced class. If you're looking for the offical errata, theres 3 places you can find it to my knowledge.

1: The PSRD, though you're looking for alternatives to that so onto the others.
2: A newly purchased copy of the PF book. They include the errata in new copies, but I doubt you'd want to waste money purely for 1 line of text.
3: The errata on the forums. One of the writers made teh change on the forum with a full topic dedicated to it. Would showing that particular post to your players be enough to convince them?

Edit: Ninja'd quite badly there

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 01:19 PM
2: A newly purchased copy of the PF book. They include the errata in new copies, but I doubt you'd want to waste money purely for 1 line of text.


When you buy the pdf, they give you the updated books for free.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-20, 01:33 PM
Others might be used to a melee class doing 290 points of damage at 12th level in one full attack. I'm not!

Are you also comfortable with the fact that a 2nd level spell completely and utterly rapes Big T?

And by "Rapes" I mean "Renders the monster completely harmless to the caster, allowing free XP if the DM uses Big T on that player". And by 2nd level spell, I mean Levitate.

Seriously, if the Paladin is overshadowing other damage dealers, help them out instead of nerfing him. If he's outshining the casters, then either they are letting him have the limelight (via buffing or Battlefield Control) or they are doing something horrendously wrong.



If the smite is overpowered, nerf it


I LoLed. The thought of nerfing a Tier 4 class at best (even granted the PF repairs to the Paladin being the best thing in PF) is laughable.

Mongoose87
2010-09-20, 01:36 PM
Secondly, using flying foes or barriers etc screws over all melee classes, it's not a good way of solving the issue, it just paves the way for casters to become more powerful.

So, we're not allowed to have well-varied combats, now?

Nero24200
2010-09-20, 01:39 PM
So, we're not allowed to have well-varied combats, now?

That wasn't what I was saying at all. What I said was that trying to limit the effectivness of the paladin's smite in this fashion isn't a good idea, since it weakens other martial classes just as much.


Seriously, if the Paladin is overshadowing other damage dealers, help them out instead of nerfing him. If he's outshining the casters, then either they are letting him have the limelight (via buffing or Battlefield Control) or they are doing something horrendously wrong.

Not everyone wants the game to become rocket tag. Some classes having gamebreaking options doesn't mean it's a good idea for every class to have them.

Mongoose87
2010-09-20, 01:43 PM
That wasn't what I was saying at all. What I said was that trying to limit the effectivness of the paladin's smite in this fashion isn't a good idea, since it weakens other martial classes just as much.


Not everyone wants the game to become rocket tag. Some classes having gamebreaking options doesn't mean it's a good idea for every class to have them.

This isn't really a game-breaking ability, and, outside of everyone relying on the battlefield control you poo-pooed, high level combat is very much rocket-tag.

Nero24200
2010-09-20, 01:53 PM
This isn't really a game-breaking ability, and, outside of everyone relying on the battlefield control you poo-pooed, high level combat is very much rocket-tag.

Of course, you're right, I'll just forget all the games I've played, both on PBP, IRC and in pen'n'paper. Therse no way high level play can be anything other than rocket tag.

I think the simple fact that paizo are nerfing the X2 damage and that theres someone specially asking how to find the errata should be proof that not everyone wants the class to be the way you like it.

Also, I never "poo-pooed" battlefield control. Quit putting words in my mouth and actually read what I type.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-20, 01:56 PM
Not everyone wants the game to become rocket tag. Some classes having gamebreaking options doesn't mean it's a good idea for every class to have them.

High-yeild damage isn't game-breaking. Its called being an effective Tank.

You know, because tanks shoot things and turn them into paste.



And EVERY class can be a game-breaker with the right tricks. Even the Truenamer can spam Gate with a class feature.


The trick to DMing a campaign with Gamebreakers is to realize that your combats are going to last 1 round if you send singular enemies at them and don't have a way to counteract as many power combos as possible.





In other words: Let him slaughter the mooks. Just make sure your real threats have Protection from Smite X.

As a side note, what combination of abilities is getting him Smite damage in the 200s in PF? Or is it the whole Backwards Compatibility BS they proclaimed would work that's doing the trick?

Mongoose87
2010-09-20, 02:02 PM
Also, I never "poo-pooed" battlefield control. Quit putting words in my mouth and actually read what I type.

You said you dislike barriers, which are a strong type of battlefield control. You have suggested that using tactics which will limit the other melee'ers while limiting the Paladin is a bad idea. So, you either believe that the OP should only use battlefield control against the Paladin, or you don't believe it should be used.

Nero24200
2010-09-20, 03:04 PM
High-yeild damage isn't game-breaking. Its called being an effective Tank.

You know, because tanks shoot things and turn them into paste. Theres a fine line between effective and overpowering. Fair enough, in mid-to-high op games the paladins smite is barely a beep on the rader. On low op games however it can be quite significant. And considering it wouldn't make much difference in a high op game anyway, is there really a problem in making it a little less effective?


In other words: Let him slaughter the mooks. Just make sure your real threats have Protection from Smite X. Actually, the PF smite encourages you to smite big threats rather than mooks. One shotting mooks I have no problem with, but it's the bosses being less threatening that makes me dislike smite (espeically the "lasts the whole encounter and adds X2 damage" parts, though thankfully one of those was errated).


You said you dislike barriers
Where?


You have suggested that using tactics which will limit the other melee'ers while limiting the Paladin is a bad idea. Yes and no. I meant that putting such factors in purelyto limit the paladin's smite is a bad idea, since it affects more than just the paladin. Sorry if that part was unclear.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-20, 03:13 PM
Theres a fine line between effective and overpowering. Fair enough, in mid-to-high op games the paladins smite is barely a beep on the rader. On low op games however it can be quite significant. And considering it wouldn't make much difference in a high op game anyway, is there really a problem in making it a little less effective?

Because this is all ready well into the mid levels, so damage values need to pick up or the melee threats are going to get wiped.


Seriously, the MM is stacked against melee. An unbuffed dragon will annihilate a straight-up Paladin. Even with Pathfinder.



Seriously. Let the Paladin have his damage output. Just make sure to tie him up with threatening mooks when the BBEG is in the room.

Nero24200
2010-09-20, 03:48 PM
Because this is all ready well into the mid levels, so damage values need to pick up or the melee threats are going to get wiped.

Seriously, the MM is stacked against melee. An unbuffed dragon will annihilate a straight-up Paladin. Even with Pathfinder.

Seriously. Let the Paladin have his damage output. Just make sure to tie him up with threatening mooks when the BBEG is in the room.

How does extra damage prevent the paladin from being flattened by a dragon? And again, the PF smite encourages smiting tough foes rather than mooks, so tying him up with mooks isn't likely to keep the paladin from smiting the boss. Remember that the smite lasts for the entire fight but only affects a single foe. If the paladin only has a handful of smites per day are you going to waste them on generic mooks or use them on the boss that can annihilate the paladin?

jiriku
2010-09-20, 04:12 PM
Disclaimer: I fully support using current errata, and feel that regardless of what's "balanced" or "common", every DM is entitled to nerf or limit any game element that creates a gamestyle he's not comfortable with.

Good encounter-building is about creating opportunity costs for power players. "Glass cannon" is an acknowledged build type, but it's easy enough to deal with.

TRE: If you create a target-rich environment, where players are outnumbered by many threatening opponents, your paladin PC can't end the encounter with one hit.
All the same: This is especially true when the targets are all of approximately equal CR.
Glass houses: If the enemies are also glass cannons, they can threaten the paladin enough to force him to deal with them, or even put him on the defensive and force him to fall back, stop and heal, or take cover. This takes the heat off any BBEG in the enemy group.
Know your enemy: Enemies who have the intel to know what the players are capable of, and the resources to devise a defense, should be defended from the PCs attacks as well as they reasonably can be (e.g. if the pally is famous for his smite, the enemy troll probably can't do anything about it, but the enemy wizard should prepare mirror image, the enemy cleric should prepare anti-life shell, the enemy warblade should prepare a counter maneuver, etc).


I speak from experience. In the last campaign I ran, two PCs could easily deal 100-200 damage per round by level 12, and I definitely had to make adjustments to keep encounters challenging for both them and their less-optimized allies.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-20, 04:22 PM
How does extra damage prevent the paladin from being flattened by a dragon? And again, the PF smite encourages smiting tough foes rather than mooks, so tying him up with mooks isn't likely to keep the paladin from smiting the boss. Remember that the smite lasts for the entire fight but only affects a single foe. If the paladin only has a handful of smites per day are you going to waste them on generic mooks or use them on the boss that can annihilate the paladin?

By going first and hitting it hard enough that it either retreats or dies.

Grommen
2010-09-20, 09:18 PM
Aright thanks for the input. Really was not asking for that, but any information I can get is great.

I'm going to take it, that no pdf errata exists for Pathfinder. Seeing as I asked for a link, and that was the only thing I didn't get. Perhaps I'll have to use the SRD. I don't want to because it is an online resource, and that would open up a hole new can of worms.

I've DM'ed for over 20 years, many game, many versions, many campaigns. I know when something is out of whack. I feel this is. Then I found the proof that I am not alone online. I go to my book (we all have the same printing) and bam....It's not their. So my players said I'm wrong, I can't back it up, so I moved on. Now before I house rule his character into oblivion (creating bad feelings) I'm looking for ways of mitigating her down a wee bit. I'm just looking to fix a broken mechanic, not reinvent the wheel.

Your ideas on how to deal with said palidian are great. In fact I've done just about all of that. I just recently sicked Khaotic Good Elven assasins. I've also assaulted her with plants, and the Knights that just really don't give a crap (CN alignment), golmens, flying wizards, and cave hugging driders. All great times and every time it turned the Palidian into a fighter with not enough feats. I have no problem beating down the character if I want to be a jerk about it. The problem is I don't want to be a jerk about it, I want to fix a problem in my game. O ya and waves of demons does the trick too, but it takes forever to play on the table top :smallfurious:

So someone asked about the number crunching. Now I am wondering if the player has calculated things correctly. At this point I have just assumed that he was correct or at least close. When he popped out this 290 for damage I've begun to wonder. So here is what happened.

Palidin level 11
So that is 3 attacks Base (11/6/1)
Feats
Two Weapon combat (grants another attack)
Enchants her own sword palidian with speed (grants another attack)
So now we are up to 5 attacks (I have seen worse at 11th level)

She uses a Bastard Sword and Rapier (has feats for that)
Has improved critical with the Bastard Sword so crits on 17+ with primary weapon, 18+ secondary.
Using power attack (-3 to hit +6 damage, off hand would be +3)
STR 18 CHA 16
She hit with a full attack, all 5 landed and the demon in question was the Vitim of her smite that round. Two of the hits were confirmed criticals for double damage. So you start adding this up, the base minimum damage is
22 * 5 (for the smite) = 110
4 * 5 (strength) = 20
6 * 3 (power attack) = 18
3 * 2 (off hand power attack)= 6
2 * 5 (+2 weapons) = 10

Hyrm.... ok so the base damage before the crits and random dice is 154.
Ya the little bugger messed up the math somewhere. Even with max on the dice 290 is a little out of reach.

arge ya know what ...... I bet it was 190 not 290 she did in damage. Still 190 hit point besting on a monster is over the top for my group. Even the 190 was more than the demon had so the extra damage is meaningless.

The problem still exists that this character, because of the class, is soloing things that the entire group should struggle with. I'm all for people being a bad ass, but I find this a bit too much.

My next step in the process is to give all the monsters the "Advanced" template giving them +2 to hit, damage, and AC. This is justified seeing as my players do not understand that you do not need 18 in every stat, and 20+ in your primary. Pathfinder's attributes are liner, so if they puff up their numbers and I do the same with the bad guys it's a zero sum affair.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 09:27 PM
Aright thanks for the input. Really was not asking for that, but any information I can get is great.

I'm going to take it, that no pdf errata exists for Pathfinder. Seeing as I asked for a link, and that was the only thing I didn't get. Perhaps I'll have to use the SRD. I don't want to because it is an online resource, and that would open up a hole new can of worms.



Errata is here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources).

As said, it does 2x damage on the first hit, normal damage thereafter (that is, adding level to damage every hit). If you find this is still too much, lower the strength of monsters but up their numbers. The paladin only gets 4 smites a day if she's 12th level.


# Errata for Core Rulebook First Printing v1.1: 1.5 MB zip PDF
# Errata for Core Rulebook Second Printing v2.0: 1.4 MB zip PDF

the extra damage is doubled on first hit, and added normally on all subsequent hits.
The srd is updated. The books are updated. The errata is there. Enjoy.



I suggest you read properly both what we are writing and what you are writing sir. You've missed important details.

Grommen
2010-09-20, 10:51 PM
I suggest you read properly both what we are writing and what you are writing sir. You've missed important details.

Fair nuff. Must have missed that one. I gots it now. Told ya all I was having a bad day.