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Desril
2010-09-20, 03:17 PM
What methods exist for rescuing someone who signed a Pact Certain, died, and went to the hells?

Does a Wish cover it? Physically assaulting the hells to rescue them? Another Pact Certain to save them? Divine intervention?

*Edit* The reason I want to know:
A high level NPC cleric is debating selling their soul to end a war that is killing thousands of their people, I'm wondering if their goddess (Selune) would save the cleric's soul or if by signing the Contract (and dying shortly/immediately after) they are damned.

It's kind of important for plot purposes and I'm wondering what route I should follow, so I'm asking if there's a precedent for this sort of thing.

Ernir
2010-09-20, 03:21 PM
Sounds like the subject of an epic adventure to me!

Cogidubnus
2010-09-20, 03:25 PM
My knowledge of the Hells isn't great, but I think you'd have to be quick on the rescue, or burn a lot of Wishes. Cos souls trapped there become the lowest of the low, and the devils quickly toy with, break and mutilate them.

AtwasAwamps
2010-09-20, 03:28 PM
You call John Constantine, watch as he accidentally kills most of the people involved, betrays at least one person, smokes more cigarettes, and possibly sings a song. Later, he will eat a sandwich and comment on evil.

I don't know if this will save your friend, but it used to sell one heck of a lot of comic books.

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 03:53 PM
Maybe you should recruit Dante as a mercenary - high level warblade/samurai (Bhu's Samurai), possible gestalt with magic items that allow him to slay demons and shiz and give him fighter bonus feats like supreme cleave and wands, etc.

Abilities: Probably monkey grip (feat), but Dante also has maneuvers like sudden leap and a feat that apparently allows him epic AC boost when total defending (I don't think he's a dwarven defender though... call it a hunch).

His ki points allow him to take advantage of certain circumstances and behave like action points sometimes.

Also death's scythe (friggin' scythe with reach that can grapple on an 'impale' and use a chain to hold on (bonus on grapple checks to hold on) - combat maneuver to deal piercing damage at -4 attack and ability to grapple as free action).
----

Mechanically, the wizard in the party could wish but then again some demon prince will probably counter act that with a wish of their own as a contingency or whatever.

Lucifer could be an arch devil or demon prince (it might not necessarily be him that uses the wish contingency and then scries the location of the caster and sends a magic mouth there to essentially say 'HRUHRUHRUH PPPBBBBBbbbbbbttt!!!').

Death is an ethereal entity (undead) that intercepts any soul before it enters the after life by transporting them to a universe parallel to the material realm wherein it has full control over all reality (it can manipulate the physics) - the soul retains corporeal form but death can pull them into its ethereal reality. Death has death's scythe (scythe with the chain and reach). The scythe also has some supernatural combat maneuvers of its own - like a stabbing attack and a powerful thing similar to leap attack granted to the wielder, provided the wielder has the right physical prerequisites (like; ie. death's scythe is kinda heavy so you need strength so-and-so).

Death also has a few unique spell-likes like 'blink' (very quick dimension door; teleport X ft. as a swift action; does not provoke AoOs).

Death's finger of death spell-like (at-will) only applies to those within the material realm - death can manifest himself as corporeal in the material plane and mask his presence with an illusion (so that only his victim will see him). Only the spell 'death watch' can get through this illusion (heh).

Finally, death is probably telepathic and can discern a person's past with just one concentration check (DC 20) as a standard action - however they must be currently able to read the person's mind with telepathy. Death can also vocalize himself with magic (despite lack of vocal cords, etc.) in a way that allows whomsoever is having his mind currently affected by Death's telepathy understand him, as if Death were speaking that person's language.

Death has a low Int score, but a high Wisdom score. He's essentially the afterlife's janitor, confined to slog work (and according to the cartoon show Family Guy, he lives at home with his mother who is also apparently undead and resides in some level of paradise (possibly a long deceased soul)).

Death is of course, lawful neutral - but his mom is obviously good aligned to belong in paradise.
----

A wayward soul (like Dante) replaces its original creature type with outsider, however outsider HD only applies on any later racial/monster levels acquired (ie. from a template) and only during the time that the person is considered a 'wayward soul' - wayward soul is a magical effect that cannot be dispelled except through revival of the body, wish, etc. (just like bringing someone back to life since that essentially pulls the soul back to the body).

Nanoblack
2010-09-20, 04:02 PM
Well generally selling your soul in a pact with devils doesn't result in your immediate death, so retrieving the soul isn't an immediate concern. The first thing the devils WILL do is either trick them into gathering more souls for them or attempt to cause the death of the character, especially a high level one.

If and when the character does die, you have a short window to retake their soul "larva" back as it is shipped down the River Styx to whichever Archduke has laid claim to it. How long this process takes is up to you, as Hells lawful alignment causes a lot of red tape that slows things down quite a bit.

After that point, you either have to use some manner of powerful magic or make a deal with the possessor of the soul to get it back.

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 04:23 PM
Well generally selling your soul in a pact with devils doesn't result in your immediate death, so retrieving the soul isn't an immediate concern. The first thing the devils WILL do is either trick them into gathering more souls for them or attempt to cause the death of the character, especially a high level one.



99.9999% of devils will command clerics to summon shadows to assail the PC. They'll also tag the PC as 'product' - essentially a rune that allows them to scry the PC at will. Attempts to remove the rune cause the PC to take 5d6 profane damage and fortitude save (DC 30? 40?) or fall unconscious for 1d4 hours, so it'd pretty much be a bad idea.

The spell craft check to carefully remove it is probably ridiculously high - failure provokes the rune again.

Essentially, a PC that sells their soul becomes death bait. If a contract was involved in the soul selling, the devil probably took advantage of ultra fine print or whatever.

If chance requires, they will arrive on the material realm as an avatar and swift cast improved force cage - epic spell; force cage with spell resistance - hence anti-magic fields and greater dispells must roll against the SR to dispell it + caster level check versus epic caster - plus, while the spell is active, the avatar has control over the force cage and can pick it up and wield it as if wielding the weight of the force cage and not the PC inside it.

I imagine Lucifer himself as about CR 30 maybe - Chaotic Evil aligned; even though he's constantly refered to as a 'devil' or 'the devil', he behaves much like a cunning demon that alternates between demonic brutality and devilish charm and deception; note also that he is the only one refered to as 'the devil' in the nine circles of hell - nine different sub-planes of the abyssal plane 'hell'.

He is a 'fallen angel' (new species; chaotic Any aligned outsider) and has levels in sorceror and epic sorceror related feats (possibly homebrew if none exist) that improve his spells known - he may be a straight sorceror, although he often uses his pure hit dice to bludgeon his way through. According to the video game 'dante's inferno' (yah I know it wasn't accurate to the poem, whatever) he probably has mutations as the result of living thousands of years in the ninth circle of hell, which give him natural weapons and armor (mainly two slams, two hoof attacks, bite, and possibly a gore, etc.). He has telepathy, tongues, can create a conscious flesh construct of himself which he resides inside. He can also cast 'alter self' or 'illusion' to make himself appear human (vaguelly or fully). Part of his mutated (or call it hellspawn/helldweller/dweller-of-the-ninth circle/whatever) template is that he can hover without wings (as a fallen angel, he still needed wings to hover and fly). He can't fly however.

Lucipher is size large but his flesh construct (with the wings, frozen in the glacier and everything) is colossal. It's possible that Lucipher originally made himself colossal but then used an epic spell + clone to create a new creature and then transfer his soul to that creature. Inside the flesh construct is yet another sub-plane (sub-plane within a sub-plane), essentially a realm of infinite hell fire from which Lucipher (Lucipher is immune to fire damage as a result of his mutated template) can telepathically command his flesh construct as if he were the construct (can speak with its voice, attack, etc.).

Don't know what divine rank that'd be though.


as Hells lawful alignment causes a lot of red tape that slows things down quite a bit.


Hey a typical devil/demon arch-duke/knight/prince/whatever is smarter than a human - if they want something, they'll get it immediately. I think a trip to baator/hell is almost gauranteed.

Also, don't try to assume things about what the GM will decide on the matter - because a lot of the time fast assumptions just don't make sense and are silly.


or make a deal with the possessor of the soul to get it back.


Demon/devil: Okay... how about, I kill you. I torture you for hundreds of years. And then you can have your friend's soul back.

Person: But you have to send it back to the material realm and make sure it arrives in their body! Make sure the body is revived as true resurrection!

Demon/devil: Hey, hey... fair enough, fair enough. Relax, I've got it handled. Take a rest guy.

Person: Don't tell me to take a rest!

Demon/devil: Relax, relax, I've got it handled. Take a rest.

Person: I'm not sure I'm liking being tortured for hundreds of years. I want it back immediatey.

Demon/devil: Immediately you say? Immediately what?

Person: My friend's soul dammit!

Demon/devil: Hey, relax guy. Immediately your friend's soul? That makes no sense. Sounds like a computer algorithm. Maybe if I were a computer I'd understand it.

Person: *pulling out hair* My... my friend's soul. I want it back immediately upon the time at which I am damned and tortured.

Demon/devil: Okay guy, let me get this straight, just so I've got a handle of things y'know? *creates a contract from memory with lesser creation*

Yadda-yadda-yadda... script got cut off. :smallsmile:

Techsmart
2010-09-20, 04:28 PM
Assuming his death was delayed, or at least was a bit of time afterwards, he could find an alternative deal with the same devil. Otherwise, he does take a certain ammount of time to pass the river styx to go through to the demon in which he was promised. The issue here is that if this happens, there might be a contingency in the contract that upon any subsequent death, he could easily be sent back to Baator, and any other attempts at saving his soul would be that much more difficult ( including the elimination of any negotiations). Another option would be making a deal with the same devil for his soul. Usually this would be getting someone else's soul of equal or greater level (They are evil, but most of them are willing to barter on a soul). If those negotiations fail, you could work with another devil in an attempt to overthrow his particular segment of hell, and upon that victory, the player's soul could be freed as a form of repayment for deeds accomplished.

Nanoblack
2010-09-20, 04:38 PM
-snip-

I was pulling all of my information from the fiendish codexes. I'm not sure where you got the idea that an archduke will leave his/her palace at the drop of a hat for a soul. That's what the slew of minions is for...

Also I am assuming non-epic 3.Xe for all of this.

mucat
2010-09-20, 04:40 PM
A high level NPC cleric is debating selling their soul to end a war that is killing thousands of their people, I'm wondering if their goddess (Selune) would save the cleric's soul or if by signing the Contract (and dying shortly/immediately after) they are damned.

It's kind of important for plot purposes and I'm wondering what route I should follow, so I'm asking if there's a precedent for this sort of thing.

I would not have Selune save the cleric's soul. Granted, she's a good-aligned goddess, and would gladly save the soul of a good-aligned character who sold his/her soul for good-aligned purposes...but if she could, then the devils would know she would, and never bother to strike the deal in the first place.

So the deal has to be binding. It can't be overcome by raw power (Wish spells, etc.) because then Selune could do the job herself, or sic powerful mortal servants on it. So if the cleric is going to be saved, it's going to be by the PCs...and they won't do it by raw power, but by outwitting and outmaneuvering the devils.

Granted, "realistic" devils would anticipate any tricks the players could pull; people have been trying to outsmart them for eons. But the game is a story, and in stories, outwitting the devil has always been the ultimate mark of a clever trickster. So I would give them a chance, if they were devious enough.

Coidzor
2010-09-20, 04:48 PM
What, the codices don't detail whether it's possible to resurrect such a person?

What an oversight.

Souls are valued by their HD, IIRC, so thinaun coup-de-graced old dragons or other high HD things to pay through the nose for an exchange of goods or arranging to retrieve a lich that was dodging the same devil that's worth more are the most likely bargains I can think of to get it back. Something that profits them is going to be their key concern if they're not intent on turning the character into a subservient entity without wasting all of the class levels gained. If they want a new pet Wizard 17, well, that's a lot more useful/valuable than a lemure or an equivalent HD-value of lesser souls (although those at least could be used as raw materials to craft something for the devil, probably other things too)

If you can physically get in and wreck the fiendish lord's stuff, then of course you can do a smash and grab operation.

erikun
2010-09-20, 05:10 PM
A high level NPC cleric is debating selling their soul to end a war that is killing thousands of their people, I'm wondering if their goddess (Selune) would save the cleric's soul or if by signing the Contract (and dying shortly/immediately after) they are damned.
I get the impression that selling one's soul means that they cannot be saved by deity intervention. Signing a Pact Certain is kind of a divine contract stating that the person does not want the intervention of their chosen deity. I would actually be surprised that a cleric would retain their powers after signing one, especially if their deity found out.

Desril
2010-09-20, 05:13 PM
"So if the cleric is going to be saved, it's going to be by the PCs"

The problem is, the devil the cleric struck a deal with IS a PC. The PC's mission is to get this cleric's soul, and future plot based things depend on his success or failure to do so. So I was trying to see if there was a reasonable way that simply signing a contract would fail to obtain the soul. Your argument of "if Selune could save the soul, she would and they wouldn't make the attempt in the first place" is valid though, so thank you.

Zaydos
2010-09-20, 05:14 PM
I get the impression that selling one's soul means that they cannot be saved by deity intervention. Signing a Pact Certain is kind of a divine contract stating that the person does not want the intervention of their chosen deity. I would actually be surprised that a cleric would retain their powers after signing one, especially if their deity found out.

I have to second this. If you're DMing I'd recommend allowing an epic quest into the pits of hell to bring them back but it's probably not something the PCs should do until they can take out Pit Fiends reliably.

Coidzor
2010-09-20, 05:28 PM
The problem is, the devil the cleric struck a deal with IS a PC.

....So, uh, the devil is a PC, then?

Um.

He can pretty much do whatever he wants with the soul so he can just give it back.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-20, 05:37 PM
Make another deal with the devil to get your soul back. That's probably the only flawless way.

Of course, HOW you do that is...highly problematic. You need to find something he wants more than your soul, which he wanted more than a grand victory. This should indeed be a fun campaign.

Gray Mage
2010-09-20, 05:38 PM
It's possible to save him, but it's not likely. I suggest you take a look at Fiendish Codex II, as it fleshes a good part of Devil society and Baator itself. Also it's good to know what Arch Devil the soul will go so that you know what layer they would have to go. Besides that, the devils have the right to his soul if he signed the contract, so breaking it is a chance that an inevitable will come after them besides the devils.

GoatBoy
2010-09-20, 05:42 PM
When you sign a Faustian pact, you guarantee your soul, payable on death, in exchange for some service. The trick is to word the pact in such a way that you can convince the Court of Hell that the Devil in question did not deliver the service as written. The Devil is bound by the Law of the Multiverse to return your soul.

Trying to outwit a Devil is not something to be taken lightly, though, and is probably the subject of an adventure unto itself. Where would one find the most talented lawyers in the Multiverse? Probably in Hell.

Coidzor
2010-09-20, 05:48 PM
Trying to outwit a Devil is not something to be taken lightly, though, and is probably the subject of an adventure unto itself. Where would one find the most talented lawyers in the Multiverse? Probably in Hell.

Mostly because Good is Dumb (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsDumb), canonically speaking.

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 06:03 PM
Usually this would be getting someone else's soul of equal or greater level (They are evil, but most of them are willing to barter on a soul).

Look, it's really friggen hard to barter with a devil. If they elect to barter, it's a ruse (they generally enjoy using their charisma to play with you rather than outright saying 'lets go!' and hauling your arse outta there like a demon would tend to do).

They will always screw you in the end if they happen to be evil aligned (and not all demons or devils are evil aligned; but they are all of the evil subtype) - at least that's how they are supposed to be roleplayed in serious games, imo.


Mostly because Good is Dumb (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsDumb), canonically speaking.

The goodest of good guys are naive and innocent and yet able to best foes forty times their character and strength in both mind and body, supernatural or no.

Normally 'civilized' sapient demons have learned to slay these people on sight as a precaution.


It's possible to save him, but it's not likely. I suggest you take a look at Fiendish Codex II, as it fleshes a good part of Devil society and Baator itself. Also it's good to know what Arch Devil the soul will go so that you know what layer they would have to go. Besides that, the devils have the right to his soul if he signed the contract, so breaking it is a chance that an inevitable will come after them besides the devils.

An inevitable will come after them? Like the lawful neutral time lord demon from prince of persia? Only as the result of an epic spell. Otherwise, 'inevitables' would generally not care about the affairs of other planes - they may consider interactions between mortals and immortals petty. They are also very lazy and are well aware that the laws of the universe prevail even when planes are shattered into ruin and trillions are decimated.

At least that's how I look at them. They probably serve only greater deities.

Coidzor
2010-09-20, 06:11 PM
The goodest of good guys are naive and innocent and yet able to best foes forty times their character and strength in both mind and body, supernatural or no.

No, I mean, in-universe. The Good guys were idiots that started the devils AND let them take over torturing sinners AND signed the Pact Primeval.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-20, 06:25 PM
No, I mean, in-universe. The Good guys were idiots that started the devils AND let them take over torturing sinners AND signed the Pact Primeval.

Only in a single version of many different cosmological stories, a version that many folks - myself included, natch - do not adhere to for their games.

Personally, I think that whole thing is just the result of some not very talented game writers trying to be all grimdark, and find it rather annoying.

As far as the OP, the whole thing does have "epic quest" written all over it. I can't imagine why a DM wouldn't be all over that adventure.

Zaydos
2010-09-20, 06:29 PM
Well the post that ninja'd mine suggesting epic quest is probably why the DM isn't all over it. The devil offering the deal is a PC so the OP was asking would it make sense for the cleric's goddess to bail out her priest. We just all got side-tracked with epic quests.

chiasaur11
2010-09-20, 06:37 PM
You call John Constantine, watch as he accidentally kills most of the people involved, betrays at least one person, smokes more cigarettes, and possibly sings a song. Later, he will eat a sandwich and comment on evil.

I don't know if this will save your friend, but it used to sell one heck of a lot of comic books.

Well, how good of a plan this is definitely depends on the time period. Azzarello? Good idea.

Milligan?

Bad idea.

Gray Mage
2010-09-20, 07:17 PM
An inevitable will come after them? Like the lawful neutral time lord demon from prince of persia? Only as the result of an epic spell. Otherwise, 'inevitables' would generally not care about the affairs of other planes - they may consider interactions between mortals and immortals petty. They are also very lazy and are well aware that the laws of the universe prevail even when planes are shattered into ruin and trillions are decimated.

At least that's how I look at them. They probably serve only greater deities.

How you look at them isn't relevant, because it's stated in the monster manual a type of inevitable that goes against contract breakers.

shadowmage
2010-09-20, 07:31 PM
"So if the cleric is going to be saved, it's going to be by the PCs"

The problem is, the devil the cleric struck a deal with IS a PC. The PC's mission is to get this cleric's soul, and future plot based things depend on his success or failure to do so. So I was trying to see if there was a reasonable way that simply signing a contract would fail to obtain the soul. Your argument of "if Selune could save the soul, she would and they wouldn't make the attempt in the first place" is valid though, so thank you.

If you want to see what happens when a god or in this case and your case goddess tries to save a person from Hell read Elminster in Hell. Mystra sends the Simbul in after him and literally all hell breaks loose. All the demons and dragons and creatures on the 1st level start attacking as the Dukes from the other levels start mobilizing. You have a being of great power on their home turf that they all hate and would love to rip into little shreds. So much power is released that the veil between hell and the mortal realm starts to tear and she has to leave, that and the sere over whelming response.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-20, 07:58 PM
Constantine was mentioned, and yet no one has mentioned his solution.
He sold his soul to EACH of the different arch dukes of hell for a different service when he was dying of cancer (or something else similar). And this being Constantine, they ALL want his soul on account of the things he's done.
So each now has a valid claim on something they all want, and none are willing to let someone else claim the prize. The solutions for the devils are A)Massive battle in hell with a Pyrrhic victory, B) They all agree to waive their claim on his soul, AND restore him to life, knowing that he'll be bartering for their services soon enough.

Overall, yeah, the good guys are going to have to try to make a case for services not being provided as advertised, and getting the soul in refund. However, their claim can't be something that would be easily fixable, like the archduke sending a dozen pitfiends up to crush the continent while leaving alive the little city the cleric wanted to save.

I'd recommend against a smash and grab by the good guys. That's theft, and while the good guys could be good at devil smashing, what if the devils respond by going to Mechanus or some other LN Judge type? All new order of entities after their heads, with all new set of invulnerabilities and weaknesses. A party of specialized devil smashers could easily find themselves in over their heads against a technically easier fight.

chiasaur11
2010-09-20, 08:05 PM
How you look at them isn't relevant, because it's stated in the monster manual a type of inevitable that goes against contract breakers.

Fortunately, by the time you'll have big enough deals going on, it's kind of a chump compared to the actual dealers in the contract.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-21, 01:37 AM
IIRC, signing a pact certain means your soul is guaranteed to go straight to hell without passing go or collecting 200gp. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that signing a pact certain, even for a noble cause, has the effect of immediately turning the signee LE. You need to sign a pact insideous to have a chance at saving your soul. The only way to save a soul from a pact certain is with another faustian pact. Here's an idea: let the NPC come back as a hell-bred.

Alleran
2010-09-21, 02:11 AM
The last time a PC in our group sold his soul, we all got together, decided we didn't like that idea, and resolved to get it back. We wound up capturing and imprisoning the Pit Fiend responsible and demanding the soul be released. He refused. The deal went something like this:

"We're here to offer you a deal."
"I'm listening, mortal."
"Let our friend's soul go."
"And?"
"And we won't leave you trapped in this prison until the end of time itself."
"No deal."
"Okay, bye."

(It sort of had echoes of the Dreadmaster that Pug and Tomas imprison in the third Riftwar book - any magic that was cast in the place we suckered him would last forever.)

The prison actually was a nigh-perfect one (it could only be opened by the person who had locked the occupant within it, though deific power could override it - it took quite a bit of research to create), so the devil eventually capitulated (stuck in a cage for all eternity, unable to enjoy the pleasures of tormenting mortals, suckering fools and the like? DID NOT WANT), gave the soul back and canceled the contract.

He swore eternal revenge, of course, and we were smart enough to know that we'd made ourselves a powerful enemy. None of us were planning on selling our souls again, though, but neither did we want to be constantly looking over our shoulder. So we left him in the cage (we would, of course, release him eventually, but by that point we were powerful enough that we just destroyed his very essence, preventing him from "respawning" after the fact).

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 11:54 AM
Only in a single version of many different cosmological stories, a version that many folks - myself included, natch - do not adhere to for their games.

It's also the only one where faustian pacts make sense from a fluff perspective without coming up with an extensively homebrewed game universe where we can't comment upon it without further expositional onslaught from the DM.

Without the Pact Primeval fiendish setup, these aren't the devils we're looking for.

JonestheSpy
2010-09-21, 03:10 PM
It's also the only one where faustian pacts make sense from a fluff perspective without coming up with an extensively homebrewed game universe where we can't comment upon it without further expositional onslaught from the DM.

Without the Pact Primeval fiendish setup, these aren't the devils we're looking for.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why wouldn't fiends from varied cosmologies want to tempt and ensnare mortals? It's what they do. That's like saying it doesn't make sense for dragons to hoard treasure or dwarves to live under mountains unless you accept x or y mythological background for your campaign.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 03:12 PM
The entire point of signing the pact is that the pact works.

If the pact does not actually work, why would they bother with it? Therefore, it makes absolutely no sense to have the pact not be binding.

Zaydos
2010-09-21, 03:23 PM
The Pact Primeval isn't required for signing away your soul to work. The idea that one owns their soul is all that's needed, and possibly that their is a cosmic force of Law (i.e. a LN deity).

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 03:29 PM
You have to own your soul, be able to sign it away, and more importantly, the signing has to be pretty irrevocable(at least on your part). Without those elements in place, you don't get bartering for souls.

With those in place, you basically do get the Pact Primeval.

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 03:32 PM
Well, there also has to be something preventing interference on the parts of others.

Otherwise, what's keeping the deity from just making him a Huecava for the betrayal?

What I'm getting at, is, there needs to be some way that gods have their hands tied.

mucat
2010-09-21, 03:36 PM
The problem is, the devil the cleric struck a deal with IS a PC. The PC's mission is to get this cleric's soul, and future plot based things depend on his success or failure to do so. So I was trying to see if there was a reasonable way that simply signing a contract would fail to obtain the soul. Your argument of "if Selune could save the soul, she would and they wouldn't make the attempt in the first place" is valid though, so thank you.
Ah, gotcha.

Then I still stand by what I said before -- the goddess cannot simply cancel the contract, but a sufficiently inspired con-artist-with-a-heart-of-gold could win the soul back -- but the roles are reversed.

I would let the PC devil obtain the cleric's soul, but at some point have the cleric's most clever mortal friend try to pull a jailbreak. Selune may not be able to intervene directly, but since the cleric sold his soul for noble reasons, she would still be rooting for him, and might lend substantial indirect help to his friend.

Which should make for an epic game of wits. As the DM, you have insight into the PCs' plans, and this is one case where it's not unfair to use it. You're playing a mortal trickster who is far smarter than anyone at the table, backed by a divine intellect who really wants him to succeed -- so pull out all the stops. When he makes his move, he should have plans within plans, feints, ruses, and the PCs should have a damn hard time outsmarting him. Their opponent is Daniel Webster, John Constantine, Sherlock Holmes and Coyote wrapped in one, and he is mad.

And if the PCs win anyway, they have earned that soul. (Alternatively, the whole thing could end with no one getting everything they want...the soul goes free, but not before the PCs have succeeded in whatever plan they were trying to pull off...but again, they should win this partial success by the skin of their teeth after a mind-shattering game of Xanatos Chess.)

JonestheSpy
2010-09-21, 04:25 PM
You have to own your soul, be able to sign it away, and more importantly, the signing has to be pretty irrevocable(at least on your part). Without those elements in place, you don't get bartering for souls.

With those in place, you basically do get the Pact Primeval.

Hmm, I think you might need to expand your reading beyond gaming rulebooks there. There are loads of myths, folklore, and modern stories out there about soul selling out there that have nothing to do with any "Pact Primeval", nor do they necessitate a universe where Good=Cosmic Idiot, which as I mentioned is the source of my distaste for the PP concept.

Zaydos
2010-09-21, 04:40 PM
The Pact Primeval says it was the Good aligned gods that set it up that way. With the nature of the soul, hinging on free choice, there's no need for Asmodeus to have tricked the gods into signing the Pact Primeval without reading the fine print. Cosmic law says the soul goes to a place defined by the choices made during life. Signing your soul into Hell counts as one of those choices, no need for the Pact Primeval. Faustian bargains worked in 3.0 and earlier just fine without it.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 04:52 PM
Hmm, I think you might need to expand your reading beyond gaming rulebooks there. There are loads of myths, folklore, and modern stories out there about soul selling out there that have nothing to do with any "Pact Primeval", nor do they necessitate a universe where Good=Cosmic Idiot, which as I mentioned is the source of my distaste for the PP concept.

I am aware of them, and I do not require that they actually use the same label for what is essentially the same concept.

Nor does this concept requiring embracing the Good is Dumb philosophy. You merely need to accept the existence of deities with human-like flaws, something found very commonly in mythology. Forming hell and daemons was probably not the best long term strategy, but it was explicitly what the Pact Primeval was for. The extremely lawful evil uses of it are probably not ridiculous to predict in hindsight, but at the time, lawful evil was not existant as a planar force.

In any case, you can't really have a cosmology like D&Ds without some division of responsibilities, and this is seen throughout mythology as well...and you can't have deals with the devil that you can just back out on at any time. You can only win these by making the deal even more cunningly than the devil, or by means of later getting things back by another, later deal. Neither of these are easy.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-21, 07:37 PM
"So if the cleric is going to be saved, it's going to be by the PCs"

The problem is, the devil the cleric struck a deal with IS a PC. The PC's mission is to get this cleric's soul, and future plot based things depend on his success or failure to do so. So I was trying to see if there was a reasonable way that simply signing a contract would fail to obtain the soul. Your argument of "if Selune could save the soul, she would and they wouldn't make the attempt in the first place" is valid though, so thank you.
OK. Here's how we do it: Homebrew:
1) Retrieval: On the death of the Faustian, the Faustian's soul appears as an invisible gem adjacent to the Faustian's body. The outsider must go to it and claim it by picking it up. Until it is claimed, any outsider can claim it.
2) No Divine Intervention: Once claimed, the gem cannot be stolen or looted by any outsider or elemental; nor can it be stolen or looted by anyone capable of casting divine spells. Anyone else can steal or loot it normally, and those not capable of of stealing it may barter for it with the current holder as the current holder sees fit to allow.
3) Invocation: Soul gems are useful things in the hands of an outsider. Once per day, as a Swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the outsider can Invoke the soul. When the outsider does so, it has the following benefits for 1 round per hit die of the soul (although certain things can end this duration prematurely):
a) The outsider gains a number of temporary HP equal to the full normal HP of the Faustian. If these temporary HP are exhausted before the duration expires, the gem shatters, and the soul travels on to what would normally be it's eternal reward. This also ends the duration of the effect.
b) If the outsider fails a save vs. a spell, spell-like, or supernatural effect, the outsider can divert the effects of that failed save to the trapped soul as an Immediate action. If the diverted effect would be lethal to the Faustian while the Faustian was still alive, then the gem shatters, and the soul travels on to what would normally be it's eternal reward, and the duration of the Invocation immediately ends. If the diverted effect is a Dismissal, Banishment, or similar effect, then the gem remains, but the duration of the Invocation ends.
c) While the Invocation lasts, the Outsider may use it's own base saves, or the base saves of the trapped soul, whichever is higher.
d) While the Invocation lasts, the Outsider may use it's own base attack bonus, or the base attack bonus of the trapped soul, whichever is higher.
e) If the Faustian was capable of casting spells at the time of death, the Outsider may cast any spell the Faustian had prepared (if the Faustian was a prepared spellcaster) or knew and had spell slots available to use (if the Faustian was a spontaneous spellcaster) as though the outsider knew the spell (or had it prepared). This expends the spell slot and spell known from the trapped soul. The soul cannot rest, and these spells and spell slots do not recharge in any way; if you cast the Detect Magic that the trapped soul had prepared, it is not available the next time you Invoke that soul. When the trapped soul runs out of spell slots, this option is no longer available.
f) If the Faustian had any Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like abilities abilities, the Outsider gains their benefit for the duration of the Invocation. However, the trapped soul cannot rest; any ability that is not continuous or at-will does not recharge; it is limited to the number of uses available at the time of the Faustian's death, and they do not recharge in any way.
g) The outsider may use it's own skill ranks, or the skill ranks of the trapped Faustian (whichever is better) for the duration of the Invocation.

There. It's now exactly as difficult to retrieve as the devil makes it, and the devil has very, very good reason to hang on to it. Additionally, commoner souls are of only minor use; powerful warriors are extremely useful; powerful spellcasters are ridiculously useful for a period of time (then not so much); Paladins are TASTY; and so on

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 07:49 PM
OK. Here's how we do it: Homebrew:
1) Retrieval: On the death of the Faustian, the Faustian's soul appears as an invisible gem adjacent to the Faustian's body. The outsider must go to it and claim it by picking it up. Until it is claimed, any outsider can claim it.
2) No Divine Intervention: Once claimed, the gem cannot be stolen or looted by any outsider or elemental; nor can it be stolen or looted by anyone capable of casting divine spells. Anyone else can steal or loot it normally, and those not capable of of stealing it may barter for it with the current holder as the current holder sees fit to allow.
3) Invocation: Soul gems are useful things in the hands of an outsider. Once per day, as a Swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the outsider can Invoke the soul. When the outsider does so, it has the following benefits for 1 round per hit die of the soul (although certain things can end this duration prematurely):
a) The outsider gains a number of temporary HP equal to the full normal HP of the Faustian. If these temporary HP are exhausted before the duration expires, the gem shatters, and the soul travels on to what would normally be it's eternal reward. This also ends the duration of the effect.
b) If the outsider fails a save vs. a spell, spell-like, or supernatural effect, the outsider can divert the effects of that failed save to the trapped soul as an Immediate action. If the diverted effect would be lethal to the Faustian while the Faustian was still alive, then the gem shatters, and the soul travels on to what would normally be it's eternal reward, and the duration of the Invocation immediately ends. If the diverted effect is a Dismissal, Banishment, or similar effect, then the gem remains, but the duration of the Invocation ends.
c) While the Invocation lasts, the Outsider may use it's own base saves, or the base saves of the trapped soul, whichever is higher.
d) While the Invocation lasts, the Outsider may use it's own base attack bonus, or the base attack bonus of the trapped soul, whichever is higher.
e) If the Faustian was capable of casting spells at the time of death, the Outsider may cast any spell the Faustian had prepared (if the Faustian was a prepared spellcaster) or knew and had spell slots available to use (if the Faustian was a spontaneous spellcaster) as though the outsider knew the spell (or had it prepared). This expends the spell slot and spell known from the trapped soul. The soul cannot rest, and these spells and spell slots do not recharge in any way; if you cast the Detect Magic that the trapped soul had prepared, it is not available the next time you Invoke that soul. When the trapped soul runs out of spell slots, this option is no longer available.
f) If the Faustian had any Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like abilities abilities, the Outsider gains their benefit for the duration of the Invocation. However, the trapped soul cannot rest; any ability that is not continuous or at-will does not recharge; it is limited to the number of uses available at the time of the Faustian's death, and they do not recharge in any way.
g) The outsider may use it's own skill ranks, or the skill ranks of the trapped Faustian (whichever is better) for the duration of the Invocation.

There. It's now exactly as difficult to retrieve as the devil makes it, and the devil has very, very good reason to hang on to it. Additionally, commoner souls are of only minor use; powerful warriors are extremely useful; powerful spellcasters are ridiculously useful for a period of time (then not so much); Paladins are TASTY; and so on

Hence why Warlocks are so commonly associated with such pacts, devils love broadening their repetoire with a variety of at will SLAs. I like it.

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-21, 08:11 PM
Hm...

Fiendish Codex II says that one can wriggle out of a Faustian Pact by atoning to one's original alignment. Which I guess means that if one is LE, one can make as many Pacts Certains without any reprimand that one was going to get anyways.

Alternatively, there are a myriad amount of mechanical ways to change one's alignment, though I think the one most appropriate for this one is the Sanctify the Wicked spell (starting a whole arc where the party has to protect the jewel from guys who want that soul). However, I would appreciate the irony of using Mindrape for this purpose.

On a slightly more serious note, obliterating the contract itself would certainly create a gray area about the whole "must not be forced into signing" bit, just so long as no lawful all-seeing deity speaks up in court.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-21, 08:14 PM
Hence why Warlocks are so commonly associated with such pacts, devils love broadening their repetoire with a variety of at will SLAs. I like it.
Heh, thanks.

Mind you: The demon/devil can't use the warlock's SLA's fully at-will. The Demon/Devil can use them at will for a sharply limited duration per day (1 round per HD of the Faustian Warlock). However, those 24 hour duration effects (Beguiling Influence, Dark Discorporation, Dark One's Own Luck, Devil's Sight, Fell Flight, Leaps and Bounds, See the Unseen, Spiderwalk, Voidsense, or Walk Unseen) can be activated, and the duration of those can continue beyond the duration of that day's Invocation of the Soul Gem itself.

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 08:16 PM
Heh, thanks.

Mind you: The demon/devil can't use the warlock's SLA's fully at-will. The Demon/Devil can use them at will for a sharply limited duration per day (1 round per HD of the Faustian Warlock). However, those 24 hour duration effects (Beguiling Influence, Dark Discorporation, Dark One's Own Luck, Devil's Sight, Fell Flight, Leaps and Bounds, See the Unseen, Spiderwalk, Voidsense, or Walk Unseen) can be activated, and the duration of those can continue beyond the duration of that day's Invocation of the Soul Gem itself.

heh, it even goes towards explaining why some of them are 24 hour duration even though they're at will and a shorter duration would be perfectly fine for a Warlock.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-21, 08:40 PM
heh, it even goes towards explaining why some of them are 24 hour duration even though they're at will and a shorter duration would be perfectly fine for a Warlock.
I always figured that was so the DM didn't need to rule on the remaining duration.

Duration of 1 round/level: How much is left on the current activation when combat begins? Err.... roll a d13, please. Oh, wait. Ah....

Duration of 24 hours: How much is left on the current activation when combat begins? Well, you activated it at 9 am, it's currently about two o'clock, so you've got roughly another 19 hours, give or take. Do you really care?

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 02:45 AM
Fiendish Codex II says that one can wriggle out of a Faustian Pact by atoning to one's original alignment. Which I guess means that if one is LE, one can make as many Pacts Certains without any reprimand that one was going to get anyways.

It specifically states that Pact Certains do not count for this- the only way to get out of a Pact Certain is if the devil the pact was made with broke the rules- by, say, telling you "sign the pact, or die".

Morithias
2010-09-22, 03:29 AM
One of the main problems with trying to get out of the contract is that their are often clauses that basically retcon what they did for you if you use atonement or such to get out of it. They also usually have clauses to prevent you from doing such things to begin with.

There are basically only 2 main rules to a pact.

1. They cannot use the threat of violence to make you sign.
2. They must give you what you asked for.

Keep in mind that they are also very very very jerk genies. Asking them to end the war between two countries would work..however you never stated for how long. They could easily just talk both kings into stopping the war for a single day.

Also, even if you took it to the lower plane courts, it's very hard to barter it out, and it requires a knowledge (planes) check, just to know you can do it to begin with.

Trust me, it would be easier just to end the war yourselves than to have the devil to it, and hope to get out of it with your soul.

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-22, 08:46 AM
It specifically states that Pact Certains do not count for this- the only way to get out of a Pact Certain is if the devil the pact was made with broke the rules- by, say, telling you "sign the pact, or die".
That's the only way to nullify the pact. Atoning to one's alignment is a way to wriggle out of the pact. The former means the contract never existed, the latter means that the contract existed but was rendered void for future usage.

The difference being whether or not things in the afterlife can say, "Wait, you formed a pact with a devil in your life!? How could you!?" However, given where LE guys were going anyways...

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 08:56 AM
That's the only way to nullify the pact. Atoning to one's alignment is a way to wriggle out of the pact. The former means the contract never existed, the latter means that the contract existed but was rendered void for future usage.

The difference being whether or not things in the afterlife can say, "Wait, you formed a pact with a devil in your life!? How could you!?" However, given where LE guys were going anyways...

I think it actually explicitly states it doesn't work that way in FC2. "atoning and changing alignment" only works for the Pact Insidious.

As well as saying "By the terms of the Pact Primeval, signing a Pact Certain is an irredeemably Lawful Evil act".

There's also "get a corruption of 9+ and don't lose it"- it states that a Lawful person with a Corruption of 9+ goes to Baator regardless of how much good they do in life. This may include alignment changes.

So, if your LE villain "has an epiphany" as per DMG, repents, and chooses never to do evil again, and to start trying to atone, their alignment may change to LN, but their corruption rating doesn't.

The "Hellbred" option may be what happens to those who are "destined for Baator" but genuinely repentant at time of death- though I'm not sure if those who have signed a Pact Certain get that option.

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-22, 10:08 AM
I think it actually explicitly states it doesn't work that way in FC2. "atoning and changing alignment" only works for the Pact Insidious.
I'm getting the atonement line from page 23, under Faustian Pacts, "... [bringing the sucker's untimely demise around more quickly] also ensures that the mortal doesn’t wriggle out of the arrangement by atoning her way back to her original alignment." Since Pacts Certains are a type of Faustian Pact, that means the rule of Faustian Pacts applies without a specific exception. The line about there being only one way to nullify a pact isn't a specific exception to the rule, because that nullifies the contract (the contract was never valid, ever), while atoning to your original alignment ends the contract prematurely (the contract was once valid and part of it was carried out). Otherwise, I don't see anything saying that only applies to Pacts Insidiouses.

Hey, the whole point of Faustian Pacts in ages of old was to screw over people with legalities, I expect that sword to cut both ways.

That said, ending the pact by atonement may or may not have a storywide implication that if your alignment changes back to LE, your pact is back in working order.


So, if your LE villain "has an epiphany" as per DMG, repents, and chooses never to do evil again, and to start trying to atone, their alignment may change to LN, but their corruption rating doesn't.
I don't think you understood where I was going with that... What I was trying to say was that a LE character would change alignment into LE upon signing such a pact, and then since he's already LE, could wriggle out of the pact without changing alignment.

Getting back to another detail, it looks like if you (or someone else you know) max out your Diplomacy, Knowledge(The Planes) and Perform(Acting) skills, you could open a case with the Diabolical Courts upon death, and then win your case on merit even if you have no actual ground on which to stand in your defense. Expect your DM to throw books at you if you go that route.

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 10:57 AM
Even if you can make the case that the pact was invalid- there's also the possibility of "being condemned on unrelated grounds"- like being LE or having a high enough corruption rating (or obesiance rating if the subject is nonlawful)

"Much diabolical laughter then ensues."

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-22, 10:58 AM
Granted, and I don't think I've stated otherwise. However, the topic at hand is dealing primarily with the contract, so that's what I've concerned myself with.

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 11:52 AM
"Atoning for corrupt acts" is mentioned in the Pact Insidious, but not the Pact Certain:

Pact Certain:
A Pact Certain can be nullified only by proving that the bloody signature was extracted involuntarily, through duress. According to the Pact Primeval, devils cannot reap signatures through torture or threat of force- including force against third parties. This rule does not, however, pertain to individuals who voluntarily sign a Pact Certain to ransom an imprisoned soul from Baator.

Pact Insidious:
Strict prohibitions forbid the mortal from disclosing the contents of the agreement to any third party. Though the contract does not explicitly say so, these prohibitions are meant to keep mortals away from meddlesome riests, who can perform atonement spells to absolve repentant signatories of the sins they have committed while fulfilling the terms of the contract.

Adjudication:
Only the following two defenses against condemnation are considered valid:
The mortal was coerced or magically compelled into signing a Faustian pact.
The devil offering a Pact Certain did not provide the promised benefits.

So- "atoning your way back to your original alignment" is not a valid defense against condemnation- therefore if the character uses that as a defense- they cannot "win the case on merit".

Note that if the Pact Certain was not nullified, but the devil never provided the benefits, the case can be won.

And I suppose in theory, if someone changed alignment to LE after committing the first corrupt act of a Pact Insidious, but signing the pact was under coercion- the character can avoid condemnation. However their Corruption needs to be less than 9 to avoid being "condemned to Baator on unrelated grounds"- maybe they would become one of the few LE guys in Acheron, instead.

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-22, 12:08 PM
"Atoning for corrupt acts" is mentioned in the Pact Insidious, but not the Pact Certain:
Atoning to one's original alignment is mentioned in Faustian Pacts, of which Pact Certain is a subsection, hence it applies to the Pact Certain.

I'll reiterate the point: atonement does not nullify the contract. That's okay. I'm not trying to nullify the contract. I'm trying to get out of it. Which is what the line I've quoted from page 23 says I can do.


So- "atoning your way back to your original alignment" is not a valid defense against condemnation- therefore if the character uses that as a defense- they cannot "win the case on merit".
Let me clarify that a bit more: bringing the case against the Diabolical Courts with hella skills (pun intended, sure, why not) is a completely unrelated strategy compared to alignment atonement. So long as a player can contest the contract, it's always an option on death. So long as you've got the skill ranks to throw logic to the wind (and your DM hasn't dropped rocks on you and everything within a five mile radius), you can get whatever results you want by pleading a completely nonsensical defense.

Lawyer: "My client did not receive services promised."
Devil: "But I provided everything the contract said, and for once I didn't even put an ironic or overly literal twist on anything!"
Judge: "While you've got a point, it appears that the defense's numbers are higher than yours. Soul goes free."
Devil: "...Does Wizards even read this stuff?"

I'm certain the devil involved wouldn't do anything nasty, like take it personally and put a hit out on you or torment you personally. Devils are known for being forgiving, nice, and not tricky at all. :smallwink:

imp_fireball
2010-09-22, 01:01 PM
As far as the OP, the whole thing does have "epic quest" written all over it. I can't imagine why a DM wouldn't be all over that adventure.

Maybe because he already wrote up a bunch of other stuff for an adventure he already had planned and he needs to railroad the players into it whichever way he can (even if it means killing them off and then ressurecting them in the proper place for their adventure or kidnapping their moms and using that as fodder for negotiation of the players playing his adventure and not something unrelated to his adventure)?

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 01:04 PM
Problem is- what happens when the atonement is done- and the character, with a valid Pact Certain, dies?

Possibilities- their soul might go to other planes, or it will go to Baator where (if they contest the pact) the case will be adjudicated.

Given the stress on "irredeemable Lawful Evil act" this strongly implies the soul goes to Baator even if atonement has been made.

Conclusion- if this is the way it works, "atoning to change alignment" would not get you out of the devilish court case.

Unless you assume that The Scouring, which transforms the repentant wrongdoer that would normally be condemned to Baator into a Hellbred, overrides a Pact Certain.

And, if in the court case, they get a higher score on the 3 skill checks, but their case is based on neither of the two "valid grounds" what happens?

"Winning the case on merit" implies that the grounds must be valid.

imp_fireball
2010-09-22, 01:04 PM
The entire point of signing the pact is that the pact works.

If the pact does not actually work, why would they bother with it? Therefore, it makes absolutely no sense to have the pact not be binding.

Well of course the pact is binding - at least to them anyway. If mortals try to escape, then they can get a bunch of other devils to assist them in taking down the mortal if he proves too hard to handle.

So yeah, hundreds of devils would be facing down the PCs. Not a deity or an 'inevitable'. If the PCs fight off the devils, then they can declare 'war' on that individual (truly a powerful soul! We need this one!) and brew up an entire devil war machine to embattle the PCs. The only way the PCs would be able to stop it would be to plea their case to the celestial realms and then war might plausibly begin anew between both greater multi-versal planes.


Additionally, I'm pretty sure that signing a pact certain, even for a noble cause, has the effect of immediately turning the signee LE.

No, that just gives you the evil subtype. Your soul is anchored to hell so you're technically an evil outsider native to your current plane you reside on until you die. This is because you've already been damned. It doesn't change your sense of morals so that you become evil.


Overall, yeah, the good guys are going to have to try to make a case for services not being provided as advertised, and getting the soul in refund.

Do you think devils are fair? The truth is, they don't care.

You take it to court, you have to take it to a court on their plane.

Here's how it would go down.

"Your honor, the contractor did not provide services as advertised."

"And what did he advertise?"

"That my soul would be damned in exchange for saving my people."

"Well... that's very oddly vague."

*Devil steps forward* "Um... your honor, need I remind you of unwritten devil law that states the client must be fully aware of all implications before signing. This includes unwritten implications."

"Why... yes. Of course. Y'know, I'm afraid the mortal's argument holds no water. I hereby rule that whatever you say next is what may happen."

*whispers among jury* "Ha... this could be fun."

"Well I think it's safely implied that the contract is open to manipulation as I deem fit. So... y'know *to mortal*, your people consist of thousands right?"

"Yes. Yes they do."

"Hm... only that many? Ah well, I've seen smaller certainly. Ah... I think we can run with every soul of every person that comprises 'your people' being damned to this plane."

*members of the jury* "Aw hell yeah man! Jackpot!"

*judge* "Is that truly your decision?"

"Yep your honor."

"Then I decree it. *bangs gavel*"

*mortal* "Buh.... what? Oh gods! What have I done?! This place is horrible! Retched! I'll never live with myself."

"You think this place is retched? Well how do you think we live with ourselves in this place? I find that offensive personally, I don't know about you guys."


Given the stress on "irredeemable Lawful Evil act" this strongly implies the soul goes to Baator even if atonement has been made.


It's a chaotic good or even neutral good act to venture into hell and save someone's soul. It could be neutral if they are 'worth saving'. It could even be evil if it's only to anger fiends or if its to save a friend true and dear to the evil mortal.

imp_fireball
2010-09-22, 01:37 PM
Hence why Warlocks are so commonly associated with such pacts, devils love broadening their repetoire with a variety of at will SLAs. I like it.

But it doesn't really clarify why paladins are 'tasty', except for the irony.

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 01:39 PM
No, that just gives you the evil subtype. Your soul is anchored to hell so you're technically an evil outsider native to your current plane you reside on until you die. This is because you've already been damned. It doesn't change your sense of morals so that you become evil.


The precise wording on page 23 is:

Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment to lawful evil, even if they have not previously taken any actions of either a lawful or an evil nature. The mere act of consciously assigning one's soul to a Lord of Hell is, by the terms of the Pact Primeval, an irredeemably and intrinsically lawful evil act.

It doesn't say anything about giving them the evil subtype, or turning them into an "evil outsider native to the Material Plane."

As to the function of Atonement to change alignment- in the section on removing corrupt acts, it explicitly states that you need to give up benefits gained from the corrupt act,apologize to those harmed, and make restitution, and carry out an active gesture of repentance assigned by the spiritual advisor (and make a donation to the spiritual advisor's church).

All this is in addition to the Atonement spell if it is needed.

An Atonement spell on its own may change your alignment, but it won't remove any corruption points.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-22, 01:40 PM
Guys guys you don't use the epic skills to get out of the contract, you use them when writing the contract.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-22, 01:43 PM
Contract. Definitely not contracts.

Epic forgery and slight of hand? What would I use that for?

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-22, 02:04 PM
Problem is- what happens when the atonement is done- and the character, with a valid Pact Certain, dies?
Since the character in question has wriggled out of the arrangement as per the books, the character's whateverness is judged on merits outside of the contract. Needless to say, that's the only thing I'm concerned about.


And, if in the court case, they get a higher score on the 3 skill checks, but their case is based on neither of the two "valid grounds" what happens?

"Winning the case on merit" implies that the grounds must be valid.
The scenario I proposed uses one of the two valid grounds, so I don't see the issue here. Regardless, though, standard emphasis added:

The judge, usually a pit fiend, listens dispassionately to both sides and rules, as a lawful creature must, according to the law. The prosecutor and defense advocate must each make three skill checks: Diplomacy, Knowledge (the planes), and Perform (acting). The results of all three checks are added together, and the side with the highest total result wins the case.
Valid grounds or not, I believe the text is pretty black and white here.

Coidzor
2010-09-22, 04:16 PM
But it doesn't really clarify why paladins are 'tasty', except for the irony.

Gotta exist for some reason. :smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2010-09-22, 05:28 PM
But it doesn't really clarify why paladins are 'tasty', except for the irony.
Because even a second level Paladin gives the Devil Charisma to saves, if only for two rounds. But it's a fairly strong, constant effect. For a Barbed devil, that's +4 to saves. +2 for a Bone Devil, +1 for a Chain Devil, +5 for an Enries, +6 for a Horned Devil, +5 for an Ice Devil, +2 for an Imp, +8 for a Pit Fiend.

Detect Evil is a Paladin at-will, and will permit the Devil doing this to 'see' other demons/devils through light cover... if the trapped soul is 3rd or higher.

Lay on of Hands, while it does drain out, is quite the useful bit of emergency healing.

Immunity to Fear and Disease (paladin-3) can also be quite handy. What happens to a disease if the host is suddenly utterly immune?

Plus, of course, Paladins have d10 hit dice, and usually have a good Con score besides - which means a fair amount of temp HP before the gem burns out each time.

Granted, there are more useful targets... but Paladins are tasty past level 3 with that particular house rule.

Lamech
2010-09-22, 06:08 PM
Has anyone mentioned becoming friends with the devil via diplomacy? I mean if the guy is your friend; he probably won't torture you for all eternity. He'll probably do something really nice and cool for you too, instead of eternal damnation. I mean he's a devil so he'll probably give you the fiendish template, and teach you how to eat souls, but still...

Alternativly planar binding + mind control.

Coidzor
2010-09-22, 06:16 PM
Has anyone mentioned becoming friends with the devil via diplomacy? I mean if the guy is your friend; he probably won't torture you for all eternity. He'll probably do something really nice and cool for you too, instead of eternal damnation. I mean he's a devil so he'll probably give you the fiendish template, and teach you how to eat souls, but still...

Alternativly planar binding + mind control.

Well, the devil is a party member.

The cleric is a party member.

Hence, confusion. :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2010-09-23, 04:04 AM
Valid grounds or not, I believe the text is pretty black and white here.

In the description of the Infernal courts, on Belial & Fierna's layer of Baator- it states that the devil in charge of the courts frequently eats advocates who make frivolous arguments.

So- trying to win based on a frivolous argument, rather than valid grounds, is risky- even with high skill ranks in all three required skills.


Since the character in question has wriggled out of the arrangement as per the books, the character's whateverness is judged on merits outside of the contract. Needless to say, that's the only thing I'm concerned about.

That's the thing though, it's not clear that "atoning to your original alignment" even works for a Pact Certain. The phrase "an intrinsically and irredeemably lawful evil act" implies that the alignment, once set by the Pact Certain, can't be changed.

Ashram
2010-09-23, 05:34 AM
IIRC, signing a pact certain means your soul is guaranteed to go straight to hell without passing go or collecting 200gp. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that signing a pact certain, even for a noble cause, has the effect of immediately turning the signee LE. You need to sign a pact insideous to have a chance at saving your soul. The only way to save a soul from a pact certain is with another faustian pact. Here's an idea: let the NPC come back as a hell-bred.

This.

No matter how good your intentions are, signing an infernal pact damns you to Hell and is therefore an Evil act.

hamishspence
2010-09-23, 07:53 AM
The Hellbred option may make sense for NPCs which have signed a Pact Certain yet are genuinely repentant at the time of death, yes.

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-23, 12:08 PM
In the description of the Infernal courts, on Belial & Fierna's layer of Baator- it states that the devil in charge of the courts frequently eats advocates who make frivolous arguments.
So- trying to win based on a frivolous argument, rather than valid grounds, is risky- even with high skill ranks in all three required skills.
I will reiterate the point that my example situation used one of the valid grounds. Furthermore, as we are accusing a devil of violating a part of a contract which binds both of us, the accusation is, by definition, seious (even if it's false!). That makes it the opposite of frivolous. I see no risk.




That's the thing though, it's not clear that "atoning to your original alignment" even works for a Pact Certain. The phrase "an intrinsically and irredeemably lawful evil act" implies that the alignment, once set by the Pact Certain, can't be changed.
We'll review the points, then. Wriggling out of a contract by alignment atonement is mentioned in Faustian Pacts, so it applies to all of them unless the pacts say otherwise. The pact in question has rules stating that it can be nullified only on certan grounds, whinch mentions nothing about wriggling out.

I will further add that redemption is not required to change one's alignment, so no matter how irredeemable it is, all that means is that I have to have my alignment changed without using the Redemption part of an Atonement spell.

Hey, we're talking contracts here, of course there will be rules lawyering of rock-falling proportions.:smallsmile:

Coidzor
2010-09-23, 04:05 PM
Hey, we're talking contracts here, of course there will be rules lawyering of rock-falling proportions.:smallsmile:

He does have a point there.