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AvatarZero
2010-09-20, 06:45 PM
http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8gte

It's a base class, it mixes Wizard-like casting and melee class features, and I think it's pretty cool. It can't cast 9th level spells, but it can full attack and cast a spell in the same round, in addition to being able to deliver any touch attack spell with a melee weapon, and it has both of these abilities by level 2.

Also, the iconic looks like high-fantasy Dante, which can't be bad. Apparently "proficient with light armor" means "I don't have to wear a shirt".

Thoughts on the class?

Starbuck_II
2010-09-20, 07:03 PM
Duskblade?
Can't channel till 3rd unlike Magus.
cast in armor (starting at light). Free Combat casting feat.
Cast up to 5th (spontaneous)
full BAb, D8 hp.
2+ Int skill
Swift casting X/day

Magus:
Channels at 1st (touch spells).
Cast in armor (starting in light)
Cast up to 6th (Prepared)
D8 hp, 3/4th BAb
2+Int skill
At 2nd level, can a spell in same round while full attacking (but takes -4 penalty to any attack in round). But only using a one handed (or light) weapon.
Magus Talents (rogue talent thingy but Magus) Not a bad selection.
At 4th level a Personal Greater Magic weapon.

Overall:
It isn't a bad redoing of Duskblade. Give up 5 BAB for an extra spell lv and lose spontaneous and become prepared.

Xefas
2010-09-20, 07:05 PM
Apparently "proficient with light armor" means "I don't have to wear a shirt".

Is there any other interpretation?

Fax Celestis
2010-09-20, 07:22 PM
This thing is a monster.

Spell Combat is waaaay too powerful for that early. Broad Study is so broken (Wizard 7/Magus 3/Eldritch Knight 10 or Cleric 3/Magus 3/Cleric 14 anyone?). Fighter Training is back to the "let's laugh at fighters" fail of 3.5. Weapon Bond is irrelevant at its level. Arcane Weapon is okay, but it stacks with anything the weapon already has: I really enjoy free abilities to the weapon I wield, and the Concentration check for not using it is laughable.

And then this thing's spell list.

Just what.

What the hell.

0-Level Magus Spells (available 1st level)
Acid Splash, Light, Arcane Mark, Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Open/Close, Daze, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Ray of Frost, Flare, Read Magic, Ghost Sound, Spark

1st-Level Magus Spells (available 1st level)
Burning Hands, Magic Weapon, Color Spray, Mount, Enlarge Person, Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat, Reduce Person, Feather Fall, Shield, Flare Burst*, Shocking Grasp, Floating Disk, Silent Image, Grease, Stone Fist, Hydraulic Push, True Strike, Jump, Unseen Servant, Magic Missile

2nd-Level Magus Spells (available 4th level)
Acid Arrow, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Gust of Wind, Bear’s Endurance, Invisibility, Blur, Levitate, Bull’s Strength, Minor Image, Burning Gaze*, Mirror Image, Cat’s Grace, Pyrotechnics, Darkness, Scorching Ray, Elemental Touch*, Shatter, Fire Breath*, Spider Climb, Flaming Sphere, Stone Call*, Fog Cloud, Web

3rd-Level Magus Spells (available 7th level)
Aqueous Orb, Hydraulic Torrent, Arcane Sight, Keen Edge, Beast Shape I, Lightning Bolt, Cloak of Winds, Greater Magic Weapon, Daylight, Major Image, Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed, Displacement, Sleet Storm, Elemental Aura, Slow, Fireball, Stinking Cloud, Flame Arrow, Versatile Weapon, Fly, Water Breathing, Gaseous Form, Wind Wall, Haste

4th-Level Magus Spells (available 10th level)
Ball Lightning, Ice Storm, Beast Shape II, Greater Invisibility, Black Tentacles, Phantasmal Killer, Detonate, Mass Reduce Person, Dimension Door, River of Wind, Dragon’s Breath, Shout,Elemental Body I, Solid Fog, Mass Enlarge Person, Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire, Firefall, Wall of Ice

5th-Level Magus Spells (available 13th level)
Baleful Polymorph, Interposing Hand, Beast Shape III, Overland Flight, Cloudkill, Telekinesis, Cone of Cold, Teleport, Elemental Body II, Wall of Force

6th-Level Magus Spells (available 16th level)
Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone, Mass Bear’s Endurance, Forceful Hand, Beast Shape IV, Form of the Dragon I, Mass Bull’s Strength, Freezing Sphere, Mass Cat’s Grace, Mislead, Chain Lightning, Sirocco, Contagious Flame, Stone to Flesh, Disintegrate, Transformation, Greater Dispel Magic, True Seeing, Elemental Body III, Wall of Iron

...why would I ever want to play anything else.

ryzouken
2010-09-20, 07:23 PM
My only issue with the class is the reduced max save DC available due to not having 9th level spell slots and the average BAB stings. That said, the capstone fixes this to an extent, by adding +2 to save DC's (stacks with everything), still no solution for the average BAB though. If they'd included Summ Mon on the spell list, I'd be able to deploy temporary flankers before my attack routine... ah well.

Hmm... late game you can build up a fairly solid mage hunter using this. Spellstrike and that one fighter feat out of the APG lets you AoO twice if your opponent tries to cast. Combine with Step Up and Strike and now your enemy mage really is about to take a pounding (enemy 5' steps, you 5' step and strike, enemy begins to cast after the 5' step, you AoO twice = 3 AoO's)

It'll be interesting to see how this works out. I really hope it doesn't end up gimped in print (memories of the Summoner)

Esser-Z
2010-09-20, 07:24 PM
That's... uh. Impressive.

Flickerdart
2010-09-20, 07:26 PM
But it doesn't get a familiar, so that must mean it trades power for flavour.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-20, 07:29 PM
But it doesn't get a familiar, so that must mean it trades power for flavour.

Actually, it can get a familiar as early as 3rd level.

Zemro
2010-09-20, 07:34 PM
This thing is a monster.

Spell Combat is waaaay too powerful for that early. Broad Study is so broken (Wizard 7/Magus 3/Eldritch Knight 10 or Cleric 3/Magus 3/Cleric 14 anyone?). Fighter Training is back to the "let's laugh at fighters" fail of 3.5. Weapon Bond is irrelevant at its level. Arcane Weapon is okay, but it stacks with anything the weapon already has: I really enjoy free abilities to the weapon I wield, and the Concentration check for not using it is laughable.

Small correction, it says at the end of Broad Study that the Magus must be at least 6th level to take it.

Not much of an improvement though, I also think the class is a bit much.

Unrest
2010-09-20, 07:34 PM
Nonononono, you don't get the point. It must make up some way for not being able to specialize.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-20, 07:37 PM
Nonononono, you don't get the point. It must make up some way for not being able to specialize.

Well, it doesn't have a mechanically enforced code of conduct, so only non-roleplaying munchkins would play it.:smallsmile: That's balanced.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 07:42 PM
Isn't that kind of the point of a playtest, though? Look at the betas for soulknife and psychic warrior.

Unrest
2010-09-20, 07:43 PM
Well, it doesn't have a mechanically enforced code of conduct, so only non-roleplaying munchkins would play it.:smallsmile: That's balanced.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Balance" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now. Munchkins deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

...rawrin', rawrin', rawrin'-rawrin', rawrin' down the stream :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2010-09-20, 07:48 PM
Isn't that kind of the point of a playtest, though? Look at the betas for soulknife and psychic warrior.

Wait, how strong were they?

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 08:00 PM
Wait, how strong were they?

Hmm (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewforum/f=2.html). Psychic Warriors get to choose "Paths", which give them bonuses to a few skills over the levels, plus a maneuver that expends psionic focus (like doing an attack against multiple enemies, or an immediate action bonus to ac + free 5' step), plus a trance that requires the focus to be maintained (they work like ToB stances). They're all competence bonuses that go from +1 to +5 over the levels to different things, like AB, initiative and damage, damage while grappling and so on. The paths also grant 2 extra powers to the list of powers known,which can be manifested by expending focus (unaugmentable) instead of the normal price. Either form is also manifested with a +1 to your manifester level
Soulknives get full bab and their blades have malleable bonuses, and they gain a bunch of tricks to use with it, like extra damage in a charge (eventually a pounce), extra range for their AoE, the psychic strike is improved and so on.

In a vacuum, classes are buffed from 3.5 to pf, so it's not a surprise that the magus can do all that stuff.
The spell list, while impressive, doesn't beat a full caster's, nor does make up for the armor/bab/hp setup, so you have to be mindful of what you are comparing them against. Is it against a wizard? Pitiful thing. Is it against a fighter? Well, fighters beat monks?
The magus is powerful, that most can see, but I don't see it being as obscene as it's being claimed.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-20, 08:04 PM
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/ultimateMagicPlaytest/round1/iWantToLikeTheMagus

PinkysBrain
2010-09-20, 08:17 PM
Channels at 1st (touch spells).
Spellstrike is just something you use on the first round of combat, from holding the charge. It's not the same as Duskblade channel.

It isn't a bad redoing of Duskblade. Give up 5 BAB for an extra spell lv and lose spontaneous and become prepared.
I think the Duskblade's spell progression was too tame ... but I think it was a better hybrid ... Magus will be better off most of the time just casting.

PS. not giving him the good polymorph spells (Giant Form) is so typically Paizo ... ugh.

Innis Cabal
2010-09-20, 08:20 PM
I honestly...what? The class seems pretty solid to me, a little crazy but it's a playtest of it. The first to be exact. So there are going to be kinks to work out to be sure.

Also, I can't agree with the spell list issues. So it has non-buff, none touch spells...what's the issue? It's not meant to be a straight up melee fighter. It's a blend of magic and fighting. This class covers that and very well.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-20, 08:21 PM
Spellstrike is just something you use on the first round of combat, from holding the charge. It's not the same as Duskblade channel.

...and with Spell Combat, it is largely irrelevant.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-20, 08:22 PM
Also, I can't agree with the spell list issues. So it has non-buff, none touch spells...what's the issue? It's not meant to be a straight up melee fighter. It's a blend of magic and fighting. This class covers that and very well.

The spell list doesn't jive with what the class is described to do: walls and other control spells don't make one a spellsword; they make you a controller who happens to wield a sword.

Innis Cabal
2010-09-20, 08:27 PM
Considering that what the Magus is isn't what your implying...I don't see the problem.


The magus uses
both spell and steel to devastating effect, casting spells
and swinging blades with ease. Rising in power, the
magus unlocks powerful forms of arcana that allow him
to merge his talents. At the pinnacles of power, the magus
becomes a blur of steel and magic, a force that few foes
would dare to stand against

It's not the perfect blend and extension of magic into a single weapon. It's a person who studies both swordplay and sorcery at the same time. Aka, it could be a controller that uses a sword. Or it could be a warrior who augments his powers with magic. It's not a rigid defined class like your suggesting and the flavor dosn't support that role either.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-20, 08:31 PM
Considering that what the Magus is isn't what your implying...I don't see the problem.

His class features speak otherwise. Most of them are combat-focused or work with touch-range spells. Why have a feature that works with touch-range spells when you hardly get any? He literally has no touch-attack spells at 6th level.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-20, 08:34 PM
His class features speak otherwise. Most of them are combat-focused or work with touch-range spells. Why have a feature that works with touch-range spells when you hardly get any? He literally has no touch-attack spells at 6th level.

Well...pick a theme then. Does he spank + cast? Spell Combat
Does he spank as he casts? Spellstrike. Spellstrike can easily go away and the class will remain coherent in that he screws the world around him while swinging his sword.
The Broad Something arcana comes at 6th level... I could see it being fine at 9th or 12th minimums.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-20, 08:35 PM
His class features speak otherwise. Most of them are combat-focused or work with touch-range spells. Why have a feature that works with touch-range spells when you hardly get any? He literally has no touch-attack spells at 6th level.

Let us count his touch spells:
1st: Shocking Grasp
2nd: Elemental Touch
3rd: Detonate?
6th: Flesh to Stone,

Did I miss anyone?

Innis Cabal
2010-09-20, 08:39 PM
Because that one ability isn't the sum of his entire class. He's got a slew of other powers that make him way more versitile then just a "Fighter who casts spells through his sword".

Just glancing at the Magus Arcana shows this. Some if not the majority do not impact his sword play in any way but instead boost or somehow change his casting. He's an effective Anti-Mage fighter at high levels and if you pick the right Magus Arcana he's a pretty nasty wizard with a sword.

So no, the abilities of the class also do not reflect the fact he's a "Spell Sword" or anything of the like. Unless you want it to be, which is great. You can be versitile with the class...to a point. It'd be nice to be able to dual wield or use shields.

Caphi
2010-09-20, 08:41 PM
How is this significantly more powerful than the inquisitor, outside of Broad Study? Because I don't recall anyone complaining about inquisitors.

Rixx
2010-09-21, 12:30 AM
Spell Combat is powerful, but unless you manage to get a really high Strength AND Intelligence at level 2, it hardly ever works when you get it (from both the spellcasting and melee perspectives - casting defensively is harder in Pathfinder). You have to split your stats between Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, AND Intelligence, all things you can't afford to really "dump" - a medium base attack bonus combined with a -4 penalty to attacks on top of this is brutal. By the time the ability gets nuts, the other classes are starting to get nuts, too.

Also, the final book, Ultimate Magic, will have many more touch spells for the Magus. It is something that has been complained about, so they might get more before the final version. It IS a playtest class - it's subject to change, and if one doesn't like it, then participating in the playtest and leaving meaningful feedback gleaned form real game sessions is the best way to see it improve.

ryzouken
2010-09-21, 02:12 AM
That -4 to hit is fairly crucial. Without it, I would easily argue it's brokenness, and if the penalty didn't scale back I'd whine about it being underpowered. As it is, with a stiff penalty that fades over level, it's well balanced for what is, essentially, a restrictive Quicken Spell.

Of course, a late game Magus would be crazy fun to play: "I Spell Combat Full Attack, dropping spell X. Then I Quick Draw my Metamagic Rod of Quicken and drop a quickened spell Y. I then take a free action to put the Rod in my glove of storing." Alternately, this might be a build I actually might consider [PF] Arcane Strike for.

Looks pretty nifty. Needs some tweaks, but overall, very cool.

Nero24200
2010-09-21, 04:17 AM
Seems a little...well...anyone else get the feeling that every Magus is going to look the same?

Kurald Galain
2010-09-21, 04:42 AM
Meh. They'll probably nerf it into oblivion in the release version.


But it doesn't get a familiar, so that must mean it trades power for flavour.
:smallbiggrin:

AvatarZero
2010-09-21, 05:58 AM
...and with Spell Combat, [Spellstrike] is largely irrelevant.

You can use both at the same time. At level 2, using both, if you cast Shocking Grasp and attacked you'd get two melee attacks at 0/-4 or -4/-4 (depending on how you read that section), either of which could deliver your spell. If you miss with the first attack, you get another chance with the second. I don't think Spellstrike would ever stop being useful.

It is slightly odd that the Magus only has a handful of touch attacks, though. The most obvious omission that I can see is Vampiric Touch, which is great for melee casters.

Gnaeus
2010-09-21, 06:16 AM
Meh. They'll probably nerf it into oblivion in the release version.


They didn't do that with the Advanced Players Guide. Witch was crazy strong in the beta, and still crazy strong afterwords.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 06:22 AM
They didn't do that with the Advanced Players Guide. Witch was crazy strong in the beta, and still crazy strong afterwords.
I'm pretty sure they DID nerf Summoner, though. And isn't Witch a full caster? :smalltongue:

Player3
2010-09-21, 07:12 AM
Seems a little...well...anyone else get the feeling that every Magus is going to look the same?

Taking Combat Casting at first level? :p



Also, the iconic looks like high-fantasy Dante, which can't be bad. Apparently "proficient with light armor" means "I don't have to wear a shirt".


The picture is of the same guy as that of the gishiest thing in core: the Eldritch Knight (which generally couldn't wear armour)

With the Magus it looks like they are going for what the Warmage probably should have been.

The physical ability dependencies seem to shift from low to high level. Having a high dexterity (and weapon finesse) at lower levels would help with attack bonus and AC, but at higher levels a heavily armoured Magus with high strength becomes feasible. No shield proficiency would force you to cast shield though.

The fighter training is nice, but it still doesn't allow feats like Disruptive and Spellbreaker and Teleport Tactician to be effectively used (Unlike an Arcane Duelist variant Bard)

Spell list definitely needs tweaking. e.g. I don't know why it has transformation, which as far as I can tell would only weaken the Magus overall.

I would like to see more spells that can be used with spellstrike, or an ability to warp certain spells to touch. It would at least negate the problem of lower save DCs compared to full casters.

Paul H
2010-09-21, 09:49 AM
Hi

Not so sure on the DC 20+spell lvl caster check for casting spells without the weapon - that's the trap for Wizards who take a master crafted weapon free at first level. Hmmmm.

One nasty combo is a feat from the Qadiran book (Gateway to the East Pg 23).

Dervish Dance [Combat]
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with
a heavier blade.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform
(dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can
use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier
on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a
one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities
that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike
ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You
cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in
your off hand.

So - Dex 18 Halfling Magus 3, Wielding +1 Scimitar:
Attack: +8 Dam: D4+5+Spell

Thanks
Paul H

Player3
2010-09-21, 05:23 PM
Not so sure on the DC 20+spell lvl caster check for casting spells without the weapon - that's the trap for Wizards who take a master crafted weapon free at first level. Hmmmm.


I don't know why a wizard would take a weapon bond (unless it's a staff for later), but like any other weapon the Magus' bond would easily be disarmed or sundered then no more Magus. The actual ability is more like the Paladin's bond though. The Magus gets it a level earlier but it progresses much more slowly. They don't give details about making a new bond if the weapon is lost or destroyed, it may be like a wizard's, and it may just be that the bond is forged every time you prepare spells.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-21, 05:28 PM
I don't know why a wizard would take a weapon bond (unless it's a staff for later), but like any other weapon the Magus' bond would easily be disarmed or sundered then no more Magus. The actual ability is more like the Paladin's bond though. The Magus gets it a level earlier but it progresses much more slowly. They don't give details about making a new bond if the weapon is lost or destroyed, it may be like a wizard's, and it may just be that the bond is forged every time you prepare spells.

It's when you prepare spells, being done every time you prepare spells. You aren't forced to bond though.

Gnaeus
2010-09-21, 06:14 PM
I don't know why a wizard would take a weapon bond (unless it's a staff for later),

I can think of several other reasons, besides making magic staves....

1. The wizard is a gish, and wants a spellstoring or other magic weapon without dropping a feat on it.

2. The wizard wants a MW, repeating heavy crossbow, which he will sell, in order to buy a mass of wardogs for handle animal shenanigans.

3. It is a low optimization, level 1 or 2 party, in which the free masterwork on the wizard's weapon lets him briefly act like he has a full BaB, giving him an attack bonus equivalent to the meleers.


I'm pretty sure they DID nerf Summoner, though. And isn't Witch a full caster? :smalltongue:

With a nice range of SR:no, non AOO provoking, high save DC Save or Lose/Sucks that it can use on each enemy once per day. I didn't really read the beta Summoner, so can't compare.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-21, 06:26 PM
With a nice range of SR:no, non AOO provoking, high save DC Save or Lose/Sucks that it can use on each enemy once per day. I didn't really read the beta Summoner, so can't compare.

Beta Summoner:
Eidolon can be out when summoning from (Sp) ability. (Final made them dismiss the other one)
Summon Monster ability: lasted 1 minute/class level with each use (standard action).
Eidolon can wear armor and use weapons.
You can only summon Eidolon once/day, but it lasts until dismissed (or banished from Banishment/well you could kill it but he can get it back the next day).

Paul H
2010-09-22, 02:00 AM
Hi

I prefer a Bonded Ring for my Wizard's spell storing device.

Much easier to describe as a family heirloom, a mark of authority, a Signet Ring for sealing contracts, etc. And it's easy to carry, and difficult to lose.

Thanks
Paul H

Snake-Aes
2010-09-22, 08:27 AM
One can wield a 2hander and cast a spell (or attack with a 2hander and then with a 1hander, assuming quick draw for the free action). Wouldn't then the magus be able to swing his 1h weapon with both hands, benefiting from the extra str to damage?
Also, I'm not absolutely sure of how Spell Strike really functions.
The more I read it, the more it looks like all it does is enabling you to use manufactured weapons instead of weapons on a touch spell. You still have to cast the spell before attacking, thus it doesn't save you any action (spell combat does that).


Summing up:
1) Cast magus touch spell
2) Instead of a touch attack, you can deliver it with a weapon attack.
3) You must have that attack available, so you don't gain a free attack.


Is this correct?

Fax Celestis
2010-09-22, 10:31 AM
One can wield a 2hander and cast a spell (or attack with a 2hander and then with a 1hander, assuming quick draw for the free action). Wouldn't then the magus be able to swing his 1h weapon with both hands, benefiting from the extra str to damage?
Also, I'm not absolutely sure of how Spell Strike really functions.
The more I read it, the more it looks like all it does is enabling you to use manufactured weapons instead of weapons on a touch spell. You still have to cast the spell before attacking, thus it doesn't save you any action (spell combat does that).
Is this correct?


Pretty much.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-22, 10:56 AM
That alleviates the 2hander issue, reducing it mostly to a change of damage dice and the loss of most reach weapons.
<stab stab stab>
No running away! <disintegrate>

I have also noticed that spell combat is a new, separate full round action for "all attacks + 1 spell". This weakens classes that rely on standard actions in multiclass (thinking ToB here).

On the other hand it's easy for him to burn spells like a duskblade. I suppose he'll run out of spells rather fast...

Rixx
2010-09-22, 03:39 PM
Something extra that makes Spellstrike a bit more useful: the spell does critical damage when your weapon does. Therefore, if you're using an 18-20 crit weapon, and you crit with the weapon while delivering the spell, the spell does critical damage as well. (This only increases the threat range - using a x3 weapon doesn't make the spell do x3 damage.)

Also, I'm guessing you can't use TWF / 2-handers / shields with Spell Combat because it implies that you're attacking with one hand while completing the spell with the other. You aren't going to be casting a spell every time you attack in melee, though, so you could always invest in Quick-Draw / Weapon cords / Quickdraw Shields if you wanted the two weapon fighting and shield options. Two-handers are out of luck, though, unless you use a Bastard Sword that you're proficient with in one hand when casting.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-22, 03:44 PM
That is good indeed. Looking at it I see the following issues
1) Early usage of Spell Combat is unreliable. Over half the time you can't pull off the spell+attack
2) being a separate full-round action, you can't use spell combat in combination with most nonstandard attacks
3) The guy really eats up his swift actions!

ErrantX
2010-09-22, 04:49 PM
Other than a sad luck of touch spells currently on the Magus' list, I think it's actually a really impressive class. I'm a fan.

-X

Snake-Aes
2010-09-22, 05:06 PM
Other than a sad luck of touch spells currently on the Magus' list, I think it's actually a really impressive class. I'm a fan.

-X

I am not making any decisions based on it. The guys already said they're adding more spells.

ErrantX
2010-09-22, 05:50 PM
Still, it looks like it's actually being done right thus far and that's impressing me. I personally detest the duskblade because it doesn't do what I want it to do hardly at all. I'd rather play a psychic warrior at that point. The magus here is actually doing what it should be. A striker/controller who can do what he needs to by having features that allow him to break action economy how he needs to.

-X

Starbuck_II
2010-09-22, 05:57 PM
Still, it looks like it's actually being done right thus far and that's impressing me. I personally detest the duskblade because it doesn't do what I want it to do hardly at all. I'd rather play a psychic warrior at that point. The magus here is actually doing what it should be. A striker/controller who can do what he needs to by having features that allow him to break action economy how he needs to.

-X


True, but a Duskblade could channel his touch attacks. He can channel that round.
A Magus can put his touch attacks in his weapon. He has to channel next round.

So really, he is not ahrad of Duskblade unless you are casting control spells with Spell combat (and even then you have a penalty to Concentration, no longer a skill so lower success).

ErrantX
2010-09-22, 08:07 PM
True, but a Duskblade could channel his touch attacks. He can channel that round.
A Magus can put his touch attacks in his weapon. He has to channel next round.

So really, he is not ahrad of Duskblade unless you are casting control spells with Spell combat (and even then you have a penalty to Concentration, no longer a skill so lower success).

Spell Combat alleviates the having to wait thing, cast the spell, then attack. What I don't like about duskblade mostly are its spells. They're not really good. I'm better off making an EK. Way better off.

-X

PinkysBrain
2010-09-23, 11:21 AM
Read a good post on the Paizo board titled "My Eidolon can beat up your Magus". Which is pretty much true, the summoner is as good a caster (except for DD) while the Eidolon is a better combatant than the Magus while casting. Same is true for a Druid or Cleric with an animal companion really.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-23, 11:32 AM
Spell Combat alleviates the having to wait thing, cast the spell, then attack. What I don't like about duskblade mostly are its spells. They're not really good. I'm better off making an EK. Way better off.

-X

You can solve that by taking levels in a Prc:
Fiend Blooded, Sandshaper, etc add free spells known.
Sandshaper adds the stat boost spells a level earlier (1st level Bull's Str).
Fiendblooded adds every even level 1 fire, necromancy, enchantment, or illusion spell.

Example, Spell with Dead or Mark of Doom are necromancy spells not Wiz/Sorc list, but you can add them.
Mark of Doom is a no save/No SR spell that damages an opponent everytime they do something.
You can get it as a 2nd level spell because it is on Pally list.

Achiever_Type
2010-09-23, 01:01 PM
A lot of the statements made here saying that the magus is too strong are unexamined and under qualified. Fankly, its a rather weak and undesirable class compared to what others can do. The Duskblade suffered from a huge issue in 3.5ed, and that was that its spell selection was abysmal. Just straight up terribad.

Further, just like the Magus rehash, the Duskblade in no way lived up to a simple wizard/fighter/EK. Frankly, why would I bother playing a class, such as the Magus, when I can deliver superior BaB, Casting progression, DC's, Spells per day, AC, HP, damage, and most importantly flexibility with a traditional gish?

Paizo needs to go back to the drawing board. Duskblade was capable of doing one thing very, very well, and that was dealing raw HP damage at an absurd rate. Blade of Blood with the sacrafice + a full channel on your most wicked spell and you were knocking people senseless. The Magus doesn't even come close.

tldr: Why play a class that's inferior in every way to a simple wizard/fighter/ek and a fail of making the Duskblade?

Tetsubo 57
2010-09-23, 03:37 PM
This looks acceptable to me... except for one thing: Why does *any* PF class have only 2 skill ranks? I find this absurd. Next campaign I run will have all classes with a minimum of four skill ranks.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-23, 04:00 PM
This looks acceptable to me... except for one thing: Why does *any* PF class have only 2 skill ranks? I find this absurd. Next campaign I run will have all classes with a minimum of four skill ranks.

Huh? Lots of them have 4 or more. From core, Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer and Wizard are the ones with 2 ranks per level.
From APG, only Summoner and Witch are 2 ranks per level.
And now, the Magus.
From the psionic betas, only the Psion is 2 ranks.

Overall, roughly half of the classes are 2, most are 4, skillmonkeys are 6 and rogues are 8

Starbuck_II
2010-09-23, 04:54 PM
This looks acceptable to me... except for one thing: Why does *any* PF class have only 2 skill ranks? I find this absurd. Next campaign I run will have all classes with a minimum of four skill ranks.

The reason is due to Duskblade has 2: Magus a Pathfinder version of Duskblade.

El Dorado
2010-09-23, 05:18 PM
Huh? Lots of them have 4 or more. From core, Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer and Wizard are the ones with 2 ranks per level.
From APG, only Summoner and Witch are 2 ranks per level.
And now, the Magus.
From the psionic betas, only the Psion is 2 ranks.

Overall, roughly half of the classes are 2, most are 4, skillmonkeys are 6 and rogues are 8

2 ranks is as unacceptable as the d4 Hit Die.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-23, 05:20 PM
2 ranks is as unacceptable as the d4 Hit Die.Why? What determines how many skill points each class has?

El Dorado
2010-09-23, 05:35 PM
Why? What determines how many skill points each class has?

I just found it funny that the d4 got dropped but the abysmal 2 ranks stayed especially on the fighter. I can see the rationale that the casting classes get fewer points because their spells give them options but the fighter needs all the help he can get.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-23, 05:37 PM
I agree with you that 2 skill ranks per level is lame, but that doesn't answer "Why is 2 skill ranks per level unforgivable and abominable?"

El Dorado
2010-09-23, 05:50 PM
I agree with you that 2 skill ranks per level is lame, but that doesn't answer "Why is 2 skill ranks per level unforgivable and abominable?"

"Unacceptable" and "abysmal". Get it right. :smallwink:

For me, it's because I like playing classes that have some utility outside of combat. Sure Fighty McFightster is good at dishing out damage but having some points for Knowledge (engineering) so I can design and inspect fortifications (like I would expect a soldier to be able to do) is kind of cool.

Same thing with Survival. Most PC fighters spend at least as much time in the woods as a ranger and yet they'll likely have to skimp on that skill due to their lack of points.

Anyhoo, it's just a pet peeve.

Gnaeus
2010-09-23, 07:47 PM
I just found it funny that the d4 got dropped but the abysmal 2 ranks stayed especially on the fighter. I can see the rationale that the casting classes get fewer points because their spells give them options but the fighter needs all the help he can get.

Well, and Wizard and Witch especially have more skill points than some of the "skilled" classes. With a 20 Int, they are getting 7 skill points per level at start, their Int will only go up in play, and their +int items now give them skill bonuses as well. They have more mundane options than the muggle classes, not less.

Gametime
2010-09-23, 09:29 PM
That really just makes the neglect of the Fighter's skill points all the more irksome. There's really no excuse for them to not have at least 4+int skill points per level.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-23, 09:36 PM
No there isn't. Back to magus!

There's absolutely no reason to ever use spell strike! You have to opt between a weapon attack you already have, or the usual free touch attack. This means that even when you can cast and attack in the same round, NOT using spell strike has better odds of landing the spell and you'll do the same weapon damage.
Does anyone have a creative solution to make an use of spell strike?

9mm
2010-09-24, 01:31 PM
lol at fax complaining about overpoweredness, this class is weak as all hell. A summoner working with her Eoidolion would be more effective. you burn through spells like sonic on smack keeping arcana up, spellstike is useless, and 3/4 bab means melee damage drops off the cliff as you MUST use a one hander (no you can't 2 hand it if you use spell combat) without bonus damage. the biggest surprise is how many on the paizo board actually reality how low-powered it is.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-24, 01:45 PM
lol at fax complaining about overpoweredness, this class is weak as all hell. A summoner working with her Eoidolion would be more effective. you burn through spells like sonic on smack keeping arcana up, spellstike is useless, and 3/4 bab means melee damage drops off the cliff as you MUST use a one hander (no you can't 2 hand it if you use spell combat) without bonus damage. the biggest surprise is how many on the paizo board actually reality how low-powered it is.

Yeah, that was mostly sticker-shock. The more I look at it, the lamer it is. I initially thought Spellstrike worked like Arcane Channeling, but later I realized it sucked. Mostly, the spell list seems pretty haphazard and the abilities unfocused and not very clear.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-24, 03:30 PM
You know it isn't that bad if ported to 3.5, but it isn't very good in pathfinder (adding back Concentration as a skill of course). Why? Because Concentration was a skill in 3.5 meaning you got a higher bonus (higher rank) as it is now a class feature using caster level.

And you can use Spellstrike as Arcane Channelling to mimic Duskblade but you have to use Spell combat. If Spell combat isn't suck then it works great. Granted, it is suck so it isn't great.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-24, 03:34 PM
And you can use Spellstrike as Arcane Channelling to mimic Duskblade but you have to use Spell combat. If Spell combat isn't suck then it works great. Granted, it is suck so it isn't great.

This is the kicker: If you use spell strike in spell combat, you can do "All your attacks + a touch spell" or you can do "All your attacks, one of them also being a touch spell against normal ac". There is no reason to ever use spellstrike with spell combat.

Benly
2010-09-24, 05:24 PM
The Magus almost feels like an exercise in forgetting about spellcaster balance nerfs they made. If they hadn't nerfed defensive casting, Spell Combat would be a fine ability. If they hadn't nerfed polymorphing, having polymorph spells pad out their buff list would be fine, and so on. I approve of those nerfs in general, but it feels like the Magus was written while forgetting they'd been made.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-24, 09:02 PM
The concentration penalty at early levels is pretty much the smallest worry. The attack penalty is much, much worse.

Merk
2010-09-24, 11:06 PM
True Strike + Spell Combat puts you at +16 to hit and I can't think of many other ways to pull that off in one round at 2nd level.

BobVosh
2010-09-25, 05:00 AM
I like it mostly. Does need a lot of spells to back it up, though.

Although this part of shocking grasp will probably make it one of the more popular low level spells for magus: When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).

*edit* Also, just like summoner and other partial caster, I kind of wish some spells they got at lower levels. Like Improved invisibility at 7th level, making it a 3rd level spell. Wizards get it there, so its not ahead of the class, and its nice for gishes. Same with stone skin. Although I don't see too many other spells on this list, unlike summoner, that I would want changed.

Summoner I wanted all the levels to reflect what level SM(X) the wizard could cast. Why can a summoner only hard cast SMVI?

AvatarZero
2010-09-25, 05:46 AM
This is the kicker: If you use spell strike in spell combat, you can do "All your attacks + a touch spell" or you can do "All your attacks, one of them also being a touch spell against normal ac". There is no reason to ever use spellstrike with spell combat.

Sacrificing your touch attack just to be able to weapon attack with a spell later is probably a universally bad option (in fact when I first read the rules I missed that part and didn't see anything wrong with the ability), but bear in mind that if you miss with the touch attack you don't lose the spell; if you choose to have your full attack follow your spell attack, you can use all of your weapon attacks as follow-up chances to land the touch attack. If the spell you're using is Shocking Grasp, you might benefit from using it's increased accuracy to land a Power Attack (and since that's the most prominent touch spell on the Magus spell list, I wonder if that's why the class has so many restrictions on touch attacks and melee). Touch attacks are pretty accurate, but that's still a decent bit of insurance against bad rolls.

I'd name some touch spells that allow a caster to make multiple touch attacks to make Spellstrike sound better, but I don't think they're on the Magus spell list.

lord_khaine
2010-09-25, 05:47 AM
A little off topic, but does anyone know if the beta summoner is still around?

From what i heard the final version got nerfed to oblivion.

BobVosh
2010-09-25, 05:53 AM
It is no longer in "My downloads" for the paizo website. I'm glad I didn't delete it when I got the final copy for PDF.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-25, 06:53 AM
Sacrificing your touch attack just to be able to weapon attack with a spell later is probably a universally bad option (in fact when I first read the rules I missed that part and didn't see anything wrong with the ability), but bear in mind that if you miss with the touch attack you don't lose the spell; if you choose to have your full attack follow your spell attack, you can use all of your weapon attacks as follow-up chances to land the touch attack. If the spell you're using is Shocking Grasp, you might benefit from using it's increased accuracy to land a Power Attack (and since that's the most prominent touch spell on the Magus spell list, I wonder if that's why the class has so many restrictions on touch attacks and melee). Touch attacks are pretty accurate, but that's still a decent bit of insurance against bad rolls.

I'd name some touch spells that allow a caster to make multiple touch attacks to make Spellstrike sound better, but I don't think they're on the Magus spell list.

If you missed a touch attack, odds are you don't have any chances of hitting it against normal AC. There is, from what I saw, one actual gain from using spellstrike: The spell uses the weapon's threat range.

AvatarZero
2010-09-25, 08:47 AM
If you missed a touch attack, odds are you don't have any chances of hitting it against normal AC. There is, from what I saw, one actual gain from using spellstrike: The spell uses the weapon's threat range.

That's true in the long run, but that doesn't mean that you'll never roll a 3 on your touch attack followed by a 12 on your melee attack.

true_shinken
2010-09-25, 12:33 PM
I'm kind of disappointed with the Magus.
Everything he does you could already do (better) with a Duskblade or Bladesinger. Seriously, a Bladesinger is better than this class.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-25, 12:58 PM
I'm kind of disappointed with the Magus.
Everything he does you could already do (better) with a Duskblade or Bladesinger. Seriously, a Bladesinger is better than this class.

To be fair he has better buffs than Duskblade, but less touch attacks spells (making Spell Strike less useful).
He even lacks Touch of fatigue a cantrip.

true_shinken
2010-09-25, 01:05 PM
To be fair he has better buffs than Duskblade, but less touch attacks spells (making Spell Strike less useful).
He even lacks Touch of fatigue a cantrip.

But with the better bab, a duskblade can dip classes that increase his spell selection with abandon. A single level of Sandshaper is already pretty good, but a duskblade can also squeeze Wyrm Wizard and Fiend-Blooded in there while keeping the BAB higher than 15.

Innis Cabal
2010-09-25, 01:07 PM
Guys....it's just a beta. Go on and say this on Paizo...actually help the class out...

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 01:08 PM
But with the better bab, a duskblade can dip classes that increase his spell selection with abandon. A single level of Sandshaper is already pretty good, but a duskblade can also squeeze Wyrm Wizard and Fiend-Blooded in there while keeping the BAB higher than 15.

Magus 6 (for Broad Study)/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10. BAB +16.

Merk
2010-09-25, 01:28 PM
To be fair he has better buffs than Duskblade, but less touch attacks spells (making Spell Strike less useful).
He even lacks Touch of fatigue a cantrip.

The magus can learn whatever spells he likes IIRC. So the spell list is pretty much a non-issue.

true_shinken
2010-09-25, 08:25 PM
The magus can learn whatever spells he likes IIRC. So the spell list is pretty much a non-issue.

Wait, what?



Magus 6 (for Broad Study)/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10. BAB +16.
That's just a a bad Wizard build, Fax. It would be a lot better without Magus.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-25, 08:31 PM
The magus can learn whatever spells he likes IIRC. So the spell list is pretty much a non-issue.

No, Magus restricted to what he can add to his spell book. What can he add to spell book? What he can add is on his spell list.

Did you miss this?
He can learn spells on a wizard spellbook if they are his own spell list (Magus one).

What you could argue is theoretically when they change the magus in the final version he might not be sucky, but till they do that is just theory not fact.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-25, 08:56 PM
No, Magus restricted to what he can add to his spell book. What can he add to spell book? What he can add is on his spell list.

Did you miss this?
He can learn spells on a wizard spellbook if they are his own spell list (Magus one).

What you could argue is theoretically when they change the magus in the final version he might not be sucky, but till they do that is just theory not fact.

Hypothesis.


And the magus doesn't automatically know or learn any spell. Akin to a wizard, he has a few he gets as he levels and he can add spells to his book like wizards do. However, like wizards are restricted by the wizard spell list, magi are restricted by the magus spell list.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-25, 08:59 PM
You say tomato, I say potato. Lets call the the whole thing off. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, same as Wizard, Magus gains 2 free ones/level.

Benly
2010-09-26, 03:58 AM
I'm kind of disappointed with the Magus.
Everything he does you could already do (better) with a Duskblade or Bladesinger. Seriously, a Bladesinger is better than this class.


On the one hand, I feel like noting that the Duskblade isn't a Pathfinder class, and it's not Paizo's responsibility to balance around non-OGL sourcebooks Wizards released, just because I'm so tired of "Pathfinder is broken because you can just use non-revised Spell Compendium and PrCs that are still broken!"...

..but on the other hand, treating Magus as a rebuild of the Duskblade (similar to the relationship between Oracle and Favored Soul, say) it's extremely disappointing. One thing I mostly like about Pathfinder is that, for the most part, while it hasn't fixed the balance of classes it mostly moves them in the right direction. Underpowered classes get boosted, overpowered classes get nerfed, and the problem is that it's generally not far enough to close the gap. In this case, they took a pretty much middling class and moved it downwards, and that's honestly not what it needed.

true_shinken
2010-09-26, 12:54 PM
In this case, they took a pretty much middling class and moved it downwards, and that's honestly not what it needed.

I think Duskblade is fine as is, that's the problem. Magus shouldn't be a Duskblade rebuild - it should be something else entirely.
If Pathfinder claims to be backwards compatible to 3.5, the least I expect is that they don't simply repeat old concepts that were already just fine with new dressing.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-26, 01:04 PM
I think Duskblade is fine as is, that's the problem. Magus shouldn't be a Duskblade rebuild - it should be something else entirely.
If Pathfinder claims to be backwards compatible to 3.5, the least I expect is that they don't simply repeat old concepts that were already just fine with new dressing.

Then the should have made the Duskblade with less touch attacks and more buffs and different class features.
That would chasis would have made it great, but Jason (one of designers) says no full BAB.

As is, it is a Bard with prepared casting, less skills, less class features (no music buffing), and more attack spells.

Benly
2010-09-26, 06:57 PM
I think Duskblade is fine as is, that's the problem. Magus shouldn't be a Duskblade rebuild - it should be something else entirely.
If Pathfinder claims to be backwards compatible to 3.5, the least I expect is that they don't simply repeat old concepts that were already just fine with new dressing.

I disagree. They revised the core classes, why shouldn't they be willing to revisit and revise noncore classes? Legally, they can't call it a Duskblade or release any new material referring to the Duskblade as Duskblade is a non-OGL copyrighted term belonging to WOTC, but having a Pathfinder class that fills the role of melee spellcaster potentially allows them to (a) revise it to follow Pathfinder guidelines for class design and take into account Pathfinder revisions of spells and mechanics, and (b) release ongoing support for it.

That's in theory. In practice they did a bad job of it with the Magus and I'm not pleased about that.

true_shinken
2010-09-26, 08:02 PM
I disagree. They revised the core classes, why shouldn't they be willing to revisit and revise noncore classes?
Revising the core classes was mostly needed. They were either too powerful or too weak. Pathfinder was supposed to stablish a middle ground... but then again it doesn't. Let's not open that can of worms.

Legally, they can't call it a Duskblade or release any new material referring to the Duskblade as Duskblade is a non-OGL copyrighted term belonging to WOTC, but having a Pathfinder class that fills the role of melee spellcaster potentially allows them to (a) revise it to follow Pathfinder guidelines for class design and take into account Pathfinder revisions of spells and mechanics, and (b) release ongoing support for it.
There is no problem with building a melee spellcaster. The problem is building a melee spellcaster that looks like the Duskblade's poor cousin. The Magus does not feel unique and interesting; it just looks like a gimped Duskblade.
The classes from Advanced Player's Guide were great because they felt unique. The problem with the Magus is not only on the mechanics, it's on the concept of what he should do.

Benly
2010-09-27, 02:13 AM
There is no problem with building a melee spellcaster. The problem is building a melee spellcaster that looks like the Duskblade's poor cousin. The Magus does not feel unique and interesting; it just looks like a gimped Duskblade.
The classes from Advanced Player's Guide were great because they felt unique. The problem with the Magus is not only on the mechanics, it's on the concept of what he should do.

If you're arguing that there's no need for a Duskblade-like class in Pathfinder, that's perfectly defensible (I don't necessarily agree, but it's a matter of personal taste). However, if you're arguing that they don't need to make a Duskblade-like class because there's already a Duskblade, here's the thing: as far as Paizo's ability to produce material for it is concerned, there is not already a Duskblade. If they want to support the guy-casting-spells-through-his-sword rather than have it be a compatible-but-unsupported third-party class, they have to make their own.

I am pretty sure there were at least two, perhaps more third-party "artificer" classes floating around before WOTC released the Eberron Campaign Setting. They were all compatible with 3E but unsupported. Because there were already 3E-compatible artificers, was the WOTC release of a first-party artificer class redundant?

(Also, the duskblade doesn't get nearly the amount of battlefield control on his list that the magus does. I don't know if I have faith that Paizo did that deliberately rather than pulling spells out of a hat, but it should have a significant impact on the play of the class.)

true_shinken
2010-09-27, 07:51 PM
I am pretty sure there were at least two, perhaps more third-party "artificer" classes floating around before WOTC released the Eberron Campaign Setting. They were all compatible with 3E but unsupported. Because there were already 3E-compatible artificers, was the WOTC release of a first-party artificer class redundant?


Pathfinder is supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5.
One of Paizo's marketing strategis was specifically 'you don't have to throw away all your books!'
So yeah, I'd like'em to consider old 3.5 material before making new material, else their marketing is just a lie. Like the one about fixing the balance issues.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-27, 08:13 PM
If you're arguing that there's no need for a Duskblade-like class in Pathfinder, that's perfectly defensible (I don't necessarily agree, but it's a matter of personal taste). However, if you're arguing that they don't need to make a Duskblade-like class because there's already a Duskblade, here's the thing: as far as Paizo's ability to produce material for it is concerned, there is not already a Duskblade. If they want to support the guy-casting-spells-through-his-sword rather than have it be a compatible-but-unsupported third-party class, they have to make their own.

I am pretty sure there were at least two, perhaps more third-party "artificer" classes floating around before WOTC released the Eberron Campaign Setting. They were all compatible with 3E but unsupported. Because there were already 3E-compatible artificers, was the WOTC release of a first-party artificer class redundant?

(Also, the duskblade doesn't get nearly the amount of battlefield control on his list that the magus does. I don't know if I have faith that Paizo did that deliberately rather than pulling spells out of a hat, but it should have a significant impact on the play of the class.)

Then Why not an Alternate Bard variant:
Full BAB (thus D10 HD), alternate spell list, different class features (less Bardic music),

You don't even need a class as this is an alternate class feature thing:
Give up: Bardic music, Lore
Gain: Full BAB (thus D10 HD), gain additional spells on list (magus spells not on Bard list). Quick cast: 1 + 1/2 class level (/day or /encounter).

Quick Cast emulates spell combat: letting you get additional spells out early on. But no messy Concentration mechanics. Seeing they don't want it all the time (reason for penalties) a set limit works fine.


It would work great. You didn't need a new class if they aren't trying to copy Duskblade.

Gametime
2010-09-27, 09:50 PM
Pathfinder is supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5.
One of Paizo's marketing strategis was specifically 'you don't have to throw away all your books!'
So yeah, I'd like'em to consider old 3.5 material before making new material, else their marketing is just a lie. Like the one about fixing the balance issues.

It isn't as though the existence of the Magus invalidates the Duskblade. They can't really produce material for the Duskblade - at least, not explicitly. They could make new wizard/sorcerer or bard spells that are obviously good for Duskblades and that people could houserule as Duskblade spells, but they can't make new actual Duskblade spells.

If you don't like the Magus, well, the Duskblade still exists and is still compatible with everything in Pathfinder. It's not like the existence of a Pathfinder parallel means you can't use the original.

true_shinken
2010-09-27, 09:59 PM
If you don't like the Magus, well, the Duskblade still exists and is still compatible with everything in Pathfinder. It's not like the existence of a Pathfinder parallel means you can't use the original.

That's not my point. I'm just saying Paizo could conceivably do the Magus class as a kind of gish that the Duskblade isn't. He could, dunno, have a special ability that allows him to attack an adjacent character whenever he casts a spell with Personal range. Or maybe he could cast with one hand while still keeping his weapon readied - dunno, giving a bonus to defensive casting and such. Magus could be a good class, like the APG classes, if it didn't try so hard to be the Duskblade's poor cousin.

Benly
2010-09-27, 10:46 PM
That's not my point. I'm just saying Paizo could conceivably do the Magus class as a kind of gish that the Duskblade isn't. He could, dunno, have a special ability that allows him to attack an adjacent character whenever he casts a spell with Personal range. Or maybe he could cast with one hand while still keeping his weapon readied - dunno, giving a bonus to defensive casting and such. Magus could be a good class, like the APG classes, if it didn't try so hard to be the Duskblade's poor cousin.

So here's the problem: Casting a spell into your sword and hitting a guy with it is kind of an obvious thing for a gish class to do. It predates the duskblade; I know it was in video games at least back into the SNES days. If you want to have a gish class with abilities more interesting than the simple fact of being able to cast and also being able to fight, this is a big obvious one. And when you get right down to it, that's all they have in common, in large part because that's the only notable feature the Duskblade has. (Okay, it has x/day auto-quicken and the Magus can take an option for 1/day free metamagic. This is also a pretty generic spellcaster feature.)

As far as "Pathfinder is marketed as backwards-compatible and so they should never do anything that overlaps existing WOTC material", that's frankly a dumb argument. The backwards-compatibility promise is that Pathfinder material will be compatible with the rules and mechanics of D&D 3.5, with appropriate modifications per the rules changes in Pathfinder core. The only part of the magus which would need to be changed at all to use the class in an ongoing 3.5 game would be replacing references in its spell list to spells that don't exist in 3.5. The magus is fully backwards compatible. (It is in fact a better 3.5 class than it is a Pathfinder class, thanks to Pathfinder's changes to defensive casting and polymorph - this is one of the reasons that I am ultimately disappointed with it.)

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 07:47 AM
So here's the problem: Casting a spell into your sword and hitting a guy with it is kind of an obvious thing for a gish class to do.
Is it? 2nd edition quintessential gish class, the Bladesinger, had no abilities of the sort. The githyanki caste of warriors that gave us the gish term also do nothing of the sort.
Only the Bladesinger, the Spellsword and the Smiting Spell feat work towards this goal that I know of.
Adding 'arcane energy' to attacks, as opposed to spells, though - that is a lot more common. We see at video games all the time, even. You use magic to do more damage. But replicating the exact same effect of a spell with your sword? That's more like a Duskblade thing.


If you want to have a gish class with abilities more interesting than the simple fact of being able to cast and also being able to fight, this is a big obvious one.
Agreed. Then again, full base attack bonus for a gish also seemed like an obvious one for a lot of people.

And when you get right down to it, that's all they have in common, in large part because that's the only notable feature the Duskblade has. (Okay, it has x/day auto-quicken and the Magus can take an option for 1/day free metamagic. This is also a pretty generic spellcaster feature.)
Let's be fair and remember that's basically the only feature the Magus has as well. Oh, he does have a 'allows other caster class to wear armor' but that's hardly even good since 6 levels is too long of a dip.
Also, the Duskblade has a few features that really do ad up. Combat Casting as a bonus feat is good, even if taking Combat Casting as a level feat is not. Arcane Attunement is good, because it gets you have utility and you can use your 0-level spells for Versatile Spellcaster.
Heck, the Duskblade even has a better spell list when it comes to damage dealing spells. And he can full-attack with them. Polar Ray is an 8th level spell, for crying out loud.


As far as "Pathfinder is marketed as backwards-compatible and so they should never do anything that overlaps existing WOTC material", that's frankly a dumb argument.
And you are frankly being rude.

The backwards-compatibility promise is that Pathfinder material will be compatible with the rules and mechanics of D&D 3.5, with appropriate modifications per the rules changes in Pathfinder core.
I agree completely.

The magus is fully backwards compatible. (It is in fact a better 3.5 class than it is a Pathfinder class, thanks to Pathfinder's changes to defensive casting and polymorph - this is one of the reasons that I am ultimately disappointed with it.)
You don't seem to be getting my point. If Pathfinder is supposed to be backwards compatible, you should assume most of it's fanbase has the old 3.5 books and PHBII is a very popular one at that. Making a class that looks very much like a weaker version of one that your target market probably already has access to and works just fine... is not very smart, Id say. To be worth my money, the Magus needs to be more than he alreayd is. I understand some people don't have PHBII, but I have, I will continue using it and I thought Paizo would respect it's fanbase enough to take that into consideration. That's all.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 07:51 AM
Heck, the Duskblade even has a better spell list when it comes to damage dealing spells. And he can full-attack with them. Polar Ray is an 8th level spell, for crying out loud.
Polar Ray can't be channeled :p

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 07:59 AM
Polar Ray can't be channeled :p

Yeah, what he said! ^^
You actually can, you just need some effort. Smiting Spell + Versatile Spellcaster should work.

Tetsubo 57
2010-09-28, 10:35 AM
So here's the problem: Casting a spell into your sword and hitting a guy with it is kind of an obvious thing for a gish class to do. It predates the duskblade; I know it was in video games at least back into the SNES days. If you want to have a gish class with abilities more interesting than the simple fact of being able to cast and also being able to fight, this is a big obvious one. And when you get right down to it, that's all they have in common, in large part because that's the only notable feature the Duskblade has. (Okay, it has x/day auto-quicken and the Magus can take an option for 1/day free metamagic. This is also a pretty generic spellcaster feature.)

As far as "Pathfinder is marketed as backwards-compatible and so they should never do anything that overlaps existing WOTC material", that's frankly a dumb argument. The backwards-compatibility promise is that Pathfinder material will be compatible with the rules and mechanics of D&D 3.5, with appropriate modifications per the rules changes in Pathfinder core. The only part of the magus which would need to be changed at all to use the class in an ongoing 3.5 game would be replacing references in its spell list to spells that don't exist in 3.5. The magus is fully backwards compatible. (It is in fact a better 3.5 class than it is a Pathfinder class, thanks to Pathfinder's changes to defensive casting and polymorph - this is one of the reasons that I am ultimately disappointed with it.)

I was playing a Ranger Lord back in 1980 that cast spells through his sword. It was an artifact mind you but it was an epic campaign. Not an original idea by any stretch of the imagination.

Benly
2010-09-28, 11:10 AM
Let's be fair and remember that's basically the only feature the Magus has as well. Oh, he does have a 'allows other caster class to wear armor' but that's hardly even good since 6 levels is too long of a dip.
Also, the Duskblade has a few features that really do ad up. Combat Casting as a bonus feat is good, even if taking Combat Casting as a level feat is not. Arcane Attunement is good, because it gets you have utility and you can use your 0-level spells for Versatile Spellcaster.
Heck, the Duskblade even has a better spell list when it comes to damage dealing spells. And he can full-attack with them. Polar Ray is an 8th level spell, for crying out loud.


Let's look over their class features, leaving aside the super-basics: proficiencies, spellcasting, and armored casting because that's pretty much necessary to be a sensical gish class in the first place and are going to look the same on most gish classes you come up with.

Class features of the duskblade:
Full BAB: Listed because Magus doesn't have it.
Arcane Attunement: extra cantrips. Magus does not have a corresponding ability.
Combat casting: A bonus feat. Not a great bonus feat in 3.5, but a bonus feat. Magus gets bonus feats but not this specifically, although they're almost certainly going to take combat casting early anyway.
Arcane Channeling: Put a spell in your sword. Similar to Spellstrike.
Quick Cast: Autoquicken 1/day. Similar to Quickened Magic.
Spellpower: Bonus to overcome SR of an enemy you've previously hit in melee. Magus does not have a matching ability. I actually like this as a gish ability and I'd forgotten it, so there's that.

Class features of the magus:
Spellstrike: Put a spell in your sword. Similar to Arcane Channeling.
Spell Combat: Cast and full-attack at the same time. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Arcane Weapon: Extra enchantment on your weapon, shuffle what enchantment it has daily. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Fighter Training: Qualify for fighter-only feats. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Counterstrike: AoO on enemies who successfully cast defensively. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Bonus feats: Bonus feats. Duskblade gets a bonus feat, but doesn't get to choose it (although a magus will take Combat Casting anyway if he knows what's good for him).
Heavy-armor casting: As long as I'm mentioning the duskblade's full BAB, it only seems fair to mention that the magus eventually gets proper heavy-armor casting.

There's also their Magus Arcana, which is one every three levels:
Arcane Accuracy: Burn spells for attack bonus. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Broad Study: Use other classes' spells on your spellstrike and spell combat. Duskblade has nothing similar, but multiclassing this and another caster is still not a great plan.
Concentrate: Reroll concentration check with a +4 bonus. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Critical Strike: Bonus quickened touch spell when you crit in melee. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Dispelling Strike: Burn spells for melee dispel. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Empowered/Quickened/Maximized/Silent/Still Magic: 1/day free metamagic. Duskblade gets one of these (probably the best one though).
Hasted Assault: Burn spells for quickened Haste. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Maneuver Mastery: Get a bit better at a combat maneuver. Duskblade doesn't have this but it would be redundant since Duskblade has actual full BAB.
Reflection: Burn a spell for spell turning. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Spell Shield: Burn a spell for immediate-action AC boost. Duskblade has nothing similar.


So, uh.. saying the Magus doesn't have anything other than Spellstrike worth mentioning and then singing the praises of Arcane Attunement of all the dang things (bonus cantrips, man? Seriously?) seems a little forced. The magus has a pile of gish tricks combining magic and melee that the duskblade just doesn't. To be honest, you could drop Spellstrike from the magus entirely and not even miss it - the magus version isn't all that good anyway.

You're right that the duskblade has much better direct damage spells. In fact, his spell list is dominated by them, along with mostly short-duration buffs (the various Swift Whatever spells stand out). The magus, on the other hand, has more of a focus on battlefield control, mobility, and full-length buffs to go with his direct damage. Why, it's almost as if they were two different classes with different focus to their spell lists. :smallwink:



You don't seem to be getting my point. If Pathfinder is supposed to be backwards compatible, you should assume most of it's fanbase has the old 3.5 books and PHBII is a very popular one at that. Making a class that looks very much like a weaker version of one that your target market probably already has access to and works just fine... is not very smart, Id say. To be worth my money, the Magus needs to be more than he alreayd is. I understand some people don't have PHBII, but I have, I will continue using it and I thought Paizo would respect it's fanbase enough to take that into consideration. That's all.

Well, if you just don't personally like the class, you should feel free to say that. Personally I think it could use a fair amount of fixing-up too. On the other hand, the more I actually compare the two classes the more it strikes me that the only thing they really have in common other than the basic idea of being single-class gishes is Spellstrike. The magus could drop Spellstrike entirely and hardly miss it, and honestly if it meant they got non-terrible numbers on Spell Combat I'd recommend doing that in a heartbeat.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 12:11 PM
Arcane Channeling is much different than spellstrike.
Partial Arcane channeling: standard action cast and deliver with a weapon instead of a touch.
Full Arcane channeling: full-round action cast and deliver with a weapon instead of a touch, but do a full attack and deliver to all victims.
Spell strike: cast and deliver on one of your normal attacks.

Without iteratives, Partial Channeling > Strike. With Iteratives, Full Channeling > Strike
Arcane channeling provides action economy in trade of not wasting a missed attack. Strike just adds "manufactured weapons" to the old "deliver with a natural weapon" rule for touch spells.

Benly
2010-09-28, 12:17 PM
Arcane Channeling is much different than spellstrike.
Partial Arcane channeling: standard action cast and deliver with a weapon instead of a touch.
Full Arcane channeling: full-round action cast and deliver with a weapon instead of a touch, but do a full attack and deliver to all victims.
Spell strike: cast and deliver on one of your normal attacks.

Without iteratives, Partial Channeling > Strike. With Iteratives, Full Channeling > Strike
Arcane channeling provides action economy in trade of not wasting a missed attack. Strike just adds "manufactured weapons" to the old "deliver with a natural weapon" rule for touch spells.

Mechanically they're quite different, but in terms of class flavor and in-world description they're pretty much the same: "put a spell in your sword and hit someone with it to hit them with the spell". The magus isn't as good at it, but it's basically the same ability. The notion I was trying to address was the idea that, because this is the case, the magus is somehow a clone of the duskblade.

The more I think about it, the more I think the magus just needs to ditch spellstrike and get spell combat that doesn't suck to be a decent class. The lower BAB is an issue, but one that's at least partly compensated by Arcane Weapon and would be significantly compensated for by the ability to actually cast-and-fight like they're supposed to.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-28, 12:26 PM
Mechanically they're quite different, but in terms of class flavor and in-world description they're pretty much the same: "put a spell in your sword and hit someone with it to hit them with the spell". The magus isn't as good at it, but it's basically the same ability. The notion I was trying to address was the idea that, because this is the case, the magus is somehow a clone of the duskblade.

The more I think about it, the more I think the magus just needs to ditch spellstrike and get spell combat that doesn't suck to be a decent class. The lower BAB is an issue, but one that's at least partly compensated by Arcane Weapon and would be significantly compensated for by the ability to actually cast-and-fight like they're supposed to.

To be fair, they have much more than just spell combat to worry about.
1) Spell Combat starts that bad, but after you get the Improved, the penalties are negligible (and soon inexistent). Thus what you have to fix here is how it scales early on.
2) They run out of steam. Fast. ALL class features revolve around casting spells, and they don't get that many. Compare to similar skeletons like the inquisitor and bard, who have other things to use that aren't powered by spells. Magus has maybe 2 arcanas that don't rely on spells.


#2 is a much bigger problem than #1 from what I can tell. The presented magus is weak because after 4 intense rounds he's on the verge of being a glorified Warrior.

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 07:21 PM
Spell Combat: Cast and full-attack at the same time. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Full arcane channeling and auto-quicken kind of have the same effect: breaking action economy.



Arcane Weapon: Extra enchantment on your weapon, shuffle what enchantment it has daily. Duskblade has nothing similar.
But he gets spells that add abilities to his weapon.



Fighter Training: Qualify for fighter-only feats. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Granted, but this is a badly designed class feature anyway. 'Look, someone else stole the Fighter stuff!'


Counterstrike: AoO on enemies who successfully cast defensively. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Granted. This is actually an interesting ability for a gish.


Heavy-armor casting: As long as I'm mentioning the duskblade's full BAB, it only seems fair to mention that the magus eventually gets proper heavy-armor casting.
So? By the time you get it, you should alreayd be in mithral full plate anyway.



All those burn spells for X.
Duskblade does not need those, since he is a sponateneous caster and has spells with those effects.


Broad Study: Use other classes' spells on your spellstrike and spell combat. Duskblade has nothing similar, but multiclassing this and another caster is still not a great plan.
I agree.


Concentrate: Reroll concentration check with a +4 bonus. Duskblade has nothing similar.
Because he does need it. Concentration in 3.5 is very different from Pathfinder. Con focus, max ranks and Combat Casting almost feels like overdoing it.


Critical Strike: Bonus quickened touch spell when you crit in melee. Duskblade has nothing similar.
This is a nice feature indeed.



So, uh.. saying the Magus doesn't have anything other than Spellstrike worth mentioning and then singing the praises of Arcane Attunement of all the dang things (bonus cantrips, man? Seriously?) seems a little forced. The magus has a pile of gish tricks combining magic and melee that the duskblade just doesn't. To be honest, you could drop Spellstrike from the magus entirely and not even miss it - the magus version isn't all that good anyway.
Those tricks are more along the lines of feats than anything else. There are a lot of 3.5 feats with similar effects. And only two of them are relevant, anyway.



You're right that the duskblade has much better direct damage spells. In fact, his spell list is dominated by them, along with mostly short-duration buffs (the various Swift Whatever spells stand out). The magus, on the other hand, has more of a focus on battlefield control, mobility, and full-length buffs to go with his direct damage. Why, it's almost as if they were two different classes with different focus to their spell lists. :smallwink:
...or like it was said before, almost like someone without a clue made the Magus spell list. He hardly has spells to channel. He has too few spells per day to use his class abilities.



Well, if you just don't personally like the class, you should feel free to say that. Personally I think it could use a fair amount of fixing-up too. On the other hand, the more I actually compare the two classes the more it strikes me that the only thing they really have in common other than the basic idea of being single-class gishes is Spellstrike. The magus could drop Spellstrike entirely and hardly miss it, and honestly if it meant they got non-terrible numbers on Spell Combat I'd recommend doing that in a heartbeat.
That sounds like a good idea, I believe. But the spells per day stills seems odd anyway. The whole prepared caster thing is also 'uh?' in my list.

Benly
2010-09-28, 08:34 PM
Full arcane channeling and auto-quicken kind of have the same effect: breaking action economy.


Hitting someone with a sword and casting a direct-damage spell kind of have the same effect: dealing damage.



But he gets spells that add abilities to his weapon.


Unless I'm missing something, the only duskblade spells that enhance the weapon for more than one attack or one round are Keen Edge, Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon, the latter two of which are strictly inferior to the magus ability as they overlap rather than stacking with existing enhancement bonuses.



So? By the time you get it, you should alreayd be in mithral full plate anyway.


The magus can put on adamantine full plate if he feels like it. It's minor, but hey, it's there.



Duskblade does not need those, since he is a sponateneous caster and has spells with those effects.


He actually doesn't. These are all swift actions which have no corresponding Swift (whatever) spell for the duskblade. They also have potentially longer durations than most of the duskblade's buffs - duskblades focus on really short-duration buffs for the most part. Duskblades also don't get Haste or Spell Turning at all, which are options the Magus gets.



Those tricks are more along the lines of feats than anything else. There are a lot of 3.5 feats with similar effects. And only two of them are relevant, anyway.


Look, you said the magus had no class features worth mentioning other than spellstrike. I'm listing a long series of class features that they have that the duskblade cannot in fact match - did you even look at the duskblade spell list before deciding to automatically assert "the duskblade can cast a spell to do that anyway"? Also, I note that you dropped from the list the various free metamagic options, but whatever.



...or like it was said before, almost like someone without a clue made the Magus spell list. He hardly has spells to channel. He has too few spells per day to use his class abilities.

You're going in circles here. You say the magus is a terrible duskblade knockoff, I say the spell list indicates it's not supposed to play like the duskblade, you say that just proves how terrible a knockoff it is. Seriously, step back and think about that for a second.

The spells per day is a problem, but it's not a problem with the spell list, it's a problem with not having enough shots of them.

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 08:44 PM
Hitting someone with a sword and casting a direct-damage spell kind of have the same effect: dealing damage.
Duskblade can channel, for example, Vampiric Touch. That's hardly just dealing HP damage.



Unless I'm missing something, the only duskblade spells that enhance the weapon for more than one attack or one round are Keen Edge, Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon, the latter two of which are strictly inferior to the magus ability as they overlap rather than stacking with existing enhancement bonuses.
I wouldn't say inferior, just different. Magus gets a +5 weapon and adds abilities to it. Duskblade gets a +1 weapon with lots of special abilities and casts GMW.



The magus can put on adamantine full plate if he feels like it. It's minor, but hey, it's there.
That's even smaller than the arcane attunement thing. Arcane attunement at least frees your 0-level slots for Versatile Spellcaster abuse, being actually relevant at level 1.




He actually doesn't. These are all swift actions which have no corresponding Swift (whatever) spell for the duskblade. They also have potentially longer durations than most of the duskblade's buffs - duskblades focus on really short-duration buffs for the most part. Duskblades also don't get Haste or Spell Turning at all, which are options the Magus gets.
They don't? I could swear I had a Duskblade/Swiftblade once.



Look, you said the magus had no class features worth mentioning other than spellstrike. I'm listing a long series of class features that they have that the duskblade cannot in fact match - did you even look at the duskblade spell list before deciding to automatically assert "the duskblade can cast a spell to do that anyway"? Also, I note that you dropped from the list the various free metamagic options, but whatever.
Yeah, you said it yourself: Duskblade does it better. Free quicken trumps any free metamagic a Magus gets.



You're going in circles here. You say the magus is a terrible duskblade knockoff, I say the spell list indicates it's not supposed to play like the duskblade, you say that just proves how terrible a knockoff it is. Seriously, step back and think about that for a second.
Well, the class features say one thing (stay in melee, channel spells). The spell list say another thing (be the Wizard's poor cousin). That's kinda weird, ain't it?


The spells per day is a problem, but it's not a problem with the spell list, it's a problem with not having enough shots of them.
Granted.

Esser-Z
2010-09-28, 08:58 PM
He needs to have Shivering Touch on his spell list.

Benly
2010-09-28, 09:02 PM
I wouldn't say inferior, just different. Magus gets a +5 weapon and adds abilities to it. Duskblade gets a +1 weapon with lots of special abilities and casts GMW.


Magus also gets Greater Magic Weapon. A magus can get a +1 weapon with lots of special abilities, cast GMW, and then add on however many extra points he gets from his level.



They don't? I could swear I had a Duskblade/Swiftblade once.


Not unless you pulled some shenanigans to get Haste onto your list. And for the sake of convenience I'd rather leave most of the ways of doing that out of the running because I'm pretty sure either class can get equally stupid with enough shenanigans layered onto them.



Well, the class features say one thing (stay in melee, channel spells). The spell list say another thing (be the Wizard's poor cousin). That's kinda weird, ain't it?


The class features other than Spellstrike say "stay in melee and cast spells", not "stay in melee and channel spells". If you can't think of ways a melee combatant can benefit from throwing around battlefield control and long-duration buffs as bonus actions on top of his melee, you're not thinking very hard. Like I said, I really think monofocusing on Spellstrike is both doing the class a disservice and drawing attention away from its actual problems.

What you see here is a bad knockoff of the Duskblade and you recommend ways to turn it into a less-bad knockoff of the Duskblade. What I see here is its own gish class with its own design problems, and I think that the fixes it needs (and they are not terribly complicated, nor do they fundamentally alter its class features) would turn it into a functional and fully distinct gish from the Duskblade.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-28, 09:03 PM
What you see here is a bad knockoff of the Duskblade and you recommend ways to turn it into a less-bad knockoff of the Duskblade. What I see here is its own gish class with its own design problems, and I think that the fixes it needs (and they are not terribly complicated, nor do they fundamentally alter its class features) would turn it into a functional and fully distinct gish from the Duskblade.

Then why does it even have Spellstrike?

Hurlbut
2010-09-28, 09:04 PM
Except that you have to wait until 13th level to wear full plate *regardless* of what material it's made of or suffer the ACP for being nonproficient with the armor. (although if one tried to wear a heavy armor before 13th level, it's Arcane Spell Failure time ;P) Mithral in Pathfinder do not lower the proficiency requirement of the armor.

Benly
2010-09-28, 09:08 PM
Then why does it even have Spellstrike?

Beats me. Like I said, you could drop the power and not even miss it.

I'm not saying that the magus is a well-designed class, I'm saying that if you look over what it's got and don't monofocus on Spellstrike, it's quite different from the duskblade. It's a questionably-assembled entirely different class which could use some significant rebalancing, but it's still an entirely different class.


Except that you have to wait until 13th level to wear full plate *regardless* of what material it's made of or suffer the ACP for being nonproficient with the armor. (although if one tried to wear a heavy armor before 13th level, it's Arcane Spell Failure time ;P) Mithral in Pathfinder do not lower the proficiency requirement of the armor.

Well, that's not so much a difference between the classes as between their home systems - a duskblade ported to PF will never be wearing heavy armor at all, and a magus ported to 3.5 will be wearing mithral plate as soon as he unlocks medium. It is a better power to get in PF than in 3.5, though, I kind of overlooked that.

true_shinken
2010-09-28, 09:49 PM
Magus also gets Greater Magic Weapon. A magus can get a +1 weapon with lots of special abilities, cast GMW, and then add on however many extra points he gets from his level.
Hm, that is indeed a good point. I agree with you.



Not unless you pulled some shenanigans to get Haste onto your list. And for the sake of convenience I'd rather leave most of the ways of doing that out of the running because I'm pretty sure either class can get equally stupid with enough shenanigans layered onto them.
That's weird. I'm AFB, but if you say so, you must be right. They don't get Haste? Man, that does not make any sense. Not even Swift Haste? Even the Ranger gets that!



The class features other than Spellstrike say "stay in melee and cast spells", not "stay in melee and channel spells". If you can't think of ways a melee combatant can benefit from throwing around battlefield control and long-duration buffs as bonus actions on top of his melee, you're not thinking very hard. Like I said, I really think monofocusing on Spellstrike is both doing the class a disservice and drawing attention away from its actual problems.
Well, that's a problem in many encounters. If you are not fighting a spread out mob, you might gimp yourself with spells such as solid fog, web or cloudkill. It's much less of a hassle when you are at range, but if you have to cast those while in melee... then you have a problem.
Also, long duration buffs are meant to be cats before combat anyway, so it does not make that much of a diference.
I already conceded Magus is more than Spellstrike a few posts ago. I'm just saying even then, it still fails as a gish if compared to the Duskblade. If you insist on battlefield control, then you have to compare the Magus to full-blown gish builds and then he will seem to suck even more.


What you see here is a bad knockoff of the Duskblade and you recommend ways to turn it into a less-bad knockoff of the Duskblade. What I see here is its own gish class with its own design problems, and I think that the fixes it needs (and they are not terribly complicated, nor do they fundamentally alter its class features) would turn it into a functional and fully distinct gish from the Duskblade.
If you remove Spellstrike from the equation, then I can agree with you. But only then, because it does not matter how you put it, Spellstrike is a core part of Magus - it's a feature all Magi get, for starters. And Spellstrike can't hold a candle to Arcane Channeling any day of the day, period.
It's like Sudden Strike x Sneak Attack. Sudden Strike always feels like Sneak Attack's poor cousin for a reson - it is sneak attack's poor cousin.
But of course, like I said in my first post, I believe the class has potential to be very interesting. If they decide what they want the Magus to do, anyway! Maybe make him immune to his own spells so that he actually can use BC while he is in melee or something.

Benly
2010-09-28, 10:06 PM
That's weird. I'm AFB, but if you say so, you must be right. They don't get Haste? Man, that does not make any sense. Not even Swift Haste? Even the Ranger gets that!


Honestly before this argument started I thought the duskblade's spell list was better than it turns out to be. Their spell list is kind of extremely bad. In most regards other than spell channeling, the magus's spell list blows it away - I was rather surprised when I started going over the two lists in any detail.




Also, long duration buffs are meant to be cats before combat anyway, so it does not make that much of a diference.


It's nice to be able to cast long-duration buffs before combat and for hours/lvl buffs that's how it goes, but for the mid-duration ones (rounds/lvl or even minutes/lvl) you don't always have that luxury. Being able to jump in while you layer on extra buffs instead of taking a few rounds to have a buff party is pretty good.



I already conceded Magus is more than Spellstrike a few posts ago. I'm just saying even then, it still fails as a gish if compared to the Duskblade. If you insist on battlefield control, then you have to compare the Magus to full-blown gish builds and then he will seem to suck even more.


The last point is where I can fully agree with you. The magus needs to be adjusted to the point where it is reasonably convincing to roll a magus instead of an Eldritch Knight or a Battle Oracle or something and right now it doesn't do that. (I don't think it needs to compete against earlier non-Pathfinder PrCs, but as it stands there are pretty much superior options within Pathfinder.)



If you remove Spellstrike from the equation, then I can agree with you. But only then, because it does not matter how you put it, Spellstrike is a core part of Magus - it's a feature all Magi get, for starters. And Spellstrike can't hold a candle to Arcane Channeling any day of the day, period.
It's like Sudden Strike x Sneak Attack. Sudden Strike always feels like Sneak Attack's poor cousin for a reson - it is sneak attack's poor cousin.
But of course, like I said in my first post, I believe the class has potential to be very interesting. If they decide what they want the Magus to do, anyway! Maybe make him immune to his own spells so that he actually can use BC while he is in melee or something.

It's an ability granted early, but Spellstrike really feels kind of like an afterthought to me. I mean, to me it seems ridiculous to say "I agree that you could drop Spellstrike and not miss it, but it's a core part of Magus" - the two statements are directly contradictory. Something acquired early is not automatically a core feature of the class, although ideally core features should be acquired early.

I can unreservedly agree with "figure out wtf the magus is supposed to be able to play like and then give him abilities that support that", though. That's pretty much a boiled-down statement of how class design should work and they didn't quite hit the mark on it.

Aran Banks
2010-09-28, 11:07 PM
The Magus needs swift action buffs, minor attack-denial debuffs (as they get better), AoEs, and heal spells.

The lineup should be "Walk into combat, start up a fire aura, and stab fools while burning swift actions to heal self and deal extra damage. If swarmed, use one of the debuffs."

This makes the Magus a guy who wades into the thick of battle while on fire, swinging a sword and paralyzing the occasional baddie. You could add to that the idea of adding a spell of the sword for "I hit you and trigger fireball to deal extra damage. loliolioliol." But that could get out of hand if not checked.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-29, 05:19 AM
Hitting someone with a sword and casting a direct-damage spell kind of have the same effect: dealing damage.

Duskblade can touch of fatigue, Ghoul touch, dimension hop, etc

He has a lot of effect touch spells: not just damage.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-29, 05:20 AM
The Magus needs swift action buffs, minor attack-denial debuffs (as they get better), AoEs, and heal spells.

The lineup should be "Walk into combat, start up a fire aura, and stab fools while burning swift actions to heal self and deal extra damage. If swarmed, use one of the debuffs."

This makes the Magus a guy who wades into the thick of battle while on fire, swinging a sword and paralyzing the occasional baddie. You could add to that the idea of adding a spell of the sword for "I hit you and trigger fireball to deal extra damage. loliolioliol." But that could get out of hand if not checked.

Spell Combat does that.

true_shinken
2010-09-29, 08:01 AM
Spell Combat does that.

It was also discussed during this thread that lots of other classes, feats and items just happen to do just that; that 'it could get out of hand' statement is kinda weird.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-29, 08:09 AM
It was also discussed during this thread that lots of other classes, feats and items just happen to do just that; that 'it could get out of hand' statement is kinda weird.

Uhhh what does that have to do with my post?

Benly
2010-09-29, 11:10 AM
Duskblade can touch of fatigue, Ghoul touch, dimension hop, etc

He has a lot of effect touch spells: not just damage.

My point with that statement wasn't "lol duskblade pure damage class only AMIRITE", it was that saying that arcane channeling and spell combat are the exact same thing because they're both action-economy violation abilities is a bit silly. "Whack him with a sword" and "fling a fireball" are also both in the same broad category, but their considerations and implementation are considerably different.

true_shinken
2010-09-29, 12:43 PM
Uhhh what does that have to do with my post?
I was just agreeing with you

Snake-Aes
2010-09-29, 12:56 PM
I was just agreeing with you

I see, sort of. I guess.

Maquise
2010-11-19, 08:59 AM
I have a couple of ideas. What if:

At level 10, or some such, the magus got the ability to charge his weapon for spellstrike as a swift action?

Another idea I actually got was from the Arcane archer. At a certain level, the magus got to select an energy type to add to his weapon. He can switch the energy type as a (mumble) action. This would make the weapon flaming, frost, shock. It would eventually upgrade to the burst variant.