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fortesama
2010-09-20, 07:52 PM
Looks like our current campaign will be finishing soon. The next one planned involves limiting spells known to level 5 spells. Just spells.

I'm thinking of trying out a binder this time to get around that limitation but from the looks of things, running one is going to be a headache in many, many ways.

Also, looks like we'll have some divine spellcasters in the group even with those restrictions and we know what happens to those that consort with binders.

Any tips on using binders and how to prevent my character from accidentally screwing the clerics/paladins or them trying to screw me over?

JoshuaZ
2010-09-20, 07:58 PM
Any tips on using binders and how to prevent my character from accidentally screwing the clerics/paladins or them trying to screw me over?

Talk to your DM. Talk to the players OOC. How much of a problem clerics have with binders varies by campaign world and specific deities worshipped. Note also that binding is not intrinsically evil, so being around a binder will not make a paladin fall. With the cleric you might even have fun, it could be a good excuse for having IC theological debates.

Binding may also be obscure in your world. If so, the cleric might not even know that you are using a forbidden form of magic.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-20, 07:59 PM
Looks like our current campaign will be finishing soon. The next one planned involves limiting spells known to level 5 spells. Just spells.

I'm thinking of trying out a binder this time to get around that limitation but from the looks of things, running one is going to be a headache in many, many ways.

Also, looks like we'll have some divine spellcasters in the group even with those restrictions and we know what happens to those that consort with binders.

Any tips on using binders and how to prevent my character from accidentally screwing the clerics/paladins or them trying to screw me over?

Don't tell them you are a Binder.
Ask them to judge you by the character of your soul not the rumors of your class.

What are trying to be? Improved Binding grants +2 Vestige binding meaning you can wear full plate from Savnok at 1st and play a psuedo tank.
You might need to be human to get Ignore special requirement feat unless you plan on stealing alot.

gorfnab
2010-09-20, 08:00 PM
Consolidated Binder Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=eoms708g52jk389k8if0i2hqe6&topic=137.0)

JoshuaZ
2010-09-20, 08:04 PM
Consolidated Binder Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=eoms708g52jk389k8if0i2hqe6&topic=137.0)

Um, that's for optimizing the Binder. The OP asked about roleplaying related issues with binders.

Xefas
2010-09-20, 08:05 PM
Lie, I guess? If they even ask where your mojo comes from (and there's no guarantee they even will - sure, we know how all magic works IRL, because we have the books, but the characters don't have an encyclopedia knowledge of all magic that has ever existed), just tell them you commune with the spirits of nature or something. Most vestiges don't look all that weird (for a D&D world).

If one of them says "Aha! I randomly decided to use spellcraft/knowledge:arcana/whatever on you while you were communing with that spirit, and now I know you're some unnatural monster, which I could have decided not to do while still remaining completely in character, but I felt like having a reason to stall everything and kick your character out of the party!"

Then just be like "Nice try, but I also have been running my unnecessarily suspicious knowledge checks, and I know that you are not, in fact, a cleric of Pelor, at all. You are, in fact, a cleric of the Burning Hate, sent here to keep me from helping this party by spreading your lies!"

And if they just randomly decide to kill you over a his-word-against-mine argument, then it wasn't meant to be.

JoshuaZ
2010-09-20, 08:07 PM
Lie, I guess? If they even ask where your mojo comes from (and there's no guarantee they even will - sure, we know how all magic works IRL, because we have the books, but the characters don't have an encyclopedia knowledge of all magic that has ever existed), just tell them you commune with the spirits of nature or something. Most vestiges don't look all that weird (for a D&D world).

If one of them says "Aha! I randomly decided to use spellcraft/knowledge:arcana/whatever on you while you were communing with that spirit, and now I know you're some unnatural monster, which I could have decided not to do while still remaining completely in character, but I felt like having a reason to stall everything and kick your character out of the party!"


This doesn't necessarily work. A cleric with enough knowledge might recognize a binder with a bad a pact who is displaying signs and influence. It isn't like people actively need to try to recall when looking at someone what they are seeing. Also, many clerics might be naturally interested in strange forms of magic they haven't seen before.

Xefas
2010-09-20, 08:15 PM
This doesn't necessarily work. A cleric with enough knowledge might recognize a binder with a bad a pact who is displaying signs and influence. It isn't like people actively need to try to recall when looking at someone what they are seeing. Also, many clerics might be naturally interested in strange forms of magic they haven't seen before.

A bad pact meaning you have, what, a gravelly voice? Or goat horns? An arrow wound? Your average druid is more freakish than that. Even if the cleric succeeds and figures out you're a Binder, what's he going to do?

The worst he can do is attack you on his own. To get someone else's help, he needs to convince them that he's not lying, and/or that he isn't just mistaken (i.e. failed his knowledge check). Meanwhile, as a Binder, you could be trying to convince them that they're mistaken.

"So I have goat horns. Maybe it's a manifestation of my Guardinal bloodline *cough cough*."

EDIT: It's the equivalent of going up to a police officer and being like "That guy over there? He stole my TV. Go arrest him."

"How do you know?"

"I saw him walking about yesterday with a TV just like it."

"Maybe it's just a similar TV."

"Naaaaah. I'm always perfectly right. Go arrest him. Don't even listen to what he has to say."

fortesama
2010-09-20, 08:17 PM
I guess I'll have to check out how clerics view binders in this campaign. It'll be difficult as our group tends to mix gods from just about every setting into one... which makes for some interesting scenarios when a cleric of mystra, shar and boccob meet together.

JoshuaZ
2010-09-20, 08:18 PM
A bad pact meaning you have, what, a gravelly voice? Or goat horns? An arrow wound? Your average druid is more freakish than that.

Right, but a cleric would recognize what is normal for a druid and what isn't.



Even if the cleric succeeds and figures out you're a Binder, what's he going to do?

The worst he can do is attack you on his own. To get someone else's help, he needs to convince them that he's not lying, and/or that he isn't just mistaken (i.e. failed his knowledge check). Meanwhile, as a Binder, you could be trying to convince them that they're mistaken.

"So I have goat horns. Maybe it's a manifestation of my Guardinal bloodline *cough cough*."

He might leave the party. Or report the suspected binder to his religious superiors. Or yes, he might attack the binder outright when he has a chance (that might depend on alignment and whether they have long-term goals that force cooperation).

Xefas
2010-09-20, 08:30 PM
Right, but a cleric would recognize what is normal for a druid and what isn't.

So, four guys are walking down the street. All of them look completely normal, and are of the same alignment. All of them have weird goat horns sprouting from their head.

One of them is a Binder that has bound Amon. One of them is a Druid that has cast Celestial Aspect on himself. One is a Wizard that has Polymorph Any Objected himself into an exact replica of himself but with horns. The last one is an Artificer that has constructed a custom graft that looks exactly like goat horns.

Which one is which? They all look exactly the same. Which one is the heretic? And how are you going to convince everyone that you're right?

D&D is too weird a setting for Binders to really stick out.

JoshuaZ
2010-09-20, 08:32 PM
So, four guys are walking down the street. All of them look completely normal, and are of the same alignment. All of them have weird goat horns sprouting from their head.

One of them is a Binder that has bound Amon. One of them is a Druid that has cast Celestial Aspect on himself. One is a Wizard that has Polymorph Any Objected himself into an exact replica of himself but with horns. The last one is an Artificer that has constructed a custom graft that looks exactly like goat horns.

Which one is which? They all look exactly the same. Which one is the heretic? And how are you going to convince everyone that you're right?

D&D is too weird a setting for Binders to really stick out.

Except it isn't just that. The next day the binder might not have horns (when they make a good pact) or is going to have a different sign. After a few weeks of this, the differences can become noticeable.

Xefas
2010-09-20, 08:41 PM
Except it isn't just that. The next day the binder might not have horns (when they make a good pact) or is going to have a different sign. After a few weeks of this, the differences can become noticeable.

Alright, so the next day, the Binder unbinds Amon, the Druid and Wizard dismiss their spells, and the Artificer activates his handy-dandy-belt-of-disguise-self to cover up those horns.

They all still look exactly the same.

But then, oh look, one of them starts talking in a gravelly voice and making diplomacy checks. None of them have diplomacy as a class skill, it must be that nasty Binder binding Naberius! So you go bring the lynchmob and kill him.

Except, oh wait, that was the Wizard. He had a couple cross-class ranks of Diplomacy to get into Mindbender. And he caught a cold. Oh well.

Nothing Binders do is really unique to them. At least one other class can duplicate every single thing they can do. Persecuting them, specifically, as a class, is wildly impractical. Somehow I doubt the writers of the Tome of Magic really thought about it for long (and, y'know, Wizards of the Coast is usually sooo good at keeping up with their own material).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-20, 08:44 PM
If you go by Printed-fluff (as much as it is worth) binders are considered heretic to most if not all religions in the standard setting. IIRC there is even a PRG class designed to hunt binders and in the fluff it states that the order to which the prg class belong gathers members from almost any religion.

Also there is a handy level 1 spell (cleric/paladin) named Detect Vestige
:smalltongue:

JoshuaZ
2010-09-20, 08:45 PM
Alright, so the next day, the Binder unbinds Amon, the Druid and Wizard dismiss their spells, and the Artificer activates his handy-dandy-belt-of-disguise-self to cover up those horns.

They all still look exactly the same.

But then, oh look, one of them starts talking in a gravelly voice and making diplomacy checks. None of them have diplomacy as a class skill, it must be that nasty Binder binding Naberius! So you go bring the lynchmob and kill him.

Except, oh wait, that was the Wizard. He had a couple cross-class ranks of Diplomacy to get into Mindbender. And he caught a cold. Oh well.

Nothing Binders do is really unique to them. At least one other class can duplicate every single thing they can do. Persecuting them, specifically, as a class, is wildly impractical. Somehow I doubt the writers of the Tome of Magic really thought about it for long (and, y'know, Wizards of the Coast is usually sooo good at keeping up with their own material).

I agree that tracking down binders is unlikely. But if a cleric is spending months with the guy he's more likely to notice. Especially because the binder doesn't show signs of certain other classes. He probably doesn't have a spellbook for example (although actually that would be an interesting disguise), he can wear decent armor and still use his abilities, and his eyes don't glow whenever he uses his abilities. And he presumably gets really vague when he's talking about how is abilities work, especially if the cleric is at all interested in magical theory (say a cleric of Boccob, or Wee Jas or Mystra). And if the cleric has decent sense motive he might notice that the guy is lying. I'm not arguing that a cleric will definitely notice, just that it isn't implausible for them to notice.

JKTrickster
2010-09-20, 09:14 PM
I'm confused about the implication that clerics will mercilessly hunt down binders without a single thought. I mean sure NPCs and strangers that don't know you and therefore lack a reason to trust you.

But a fellow party member? Really? They would ignore all the times you've fought together, shared experiences, friendship, EVERYTHING.

In fact, it makes no sense IC anyway. People are not defined by their class alone. Personality, fears, inclinations, traits, all of these should have a bigger impact.

What is the Cleric in question was more of a pacifist. He/She is more interested in trying to "redeem" you and get you off your "ill path" rather than slaying you in the name of good. Or perhaps the Cleric recognizes that you might be doing something wrong, but might also be too timid of a character/too shy of a character to confront anyone about it.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that there isn't a problem. Of course there can be. In fact, its more likely than not that this would led to conflict.

But conflict isn't PvP; it isn't a ultimatum. Anytime you think party conflict can only lead to one person leaving the party then you're doing it wrong. People in real life are MUCH deeper than that. Especially if they've fought for their lives together.

JoshuaZ
2010-09-20, 09:17 PM
I'm confused about the implication that clerics will mercilessly hunt down binders without a single thought. I mean sure NPCs and strangers that don't know you and therefore lack a reason to trust you.

But a fellow party member? Really? They would ignore all the times you've fought together, shared experiences, friendship, EVERYTHING.

In fact, it makes no sense IC anyway. People are not defined by their class alone. Personality, fears, inclinations, traits, all of these should have a bigger impact.

Depends on the character, how much they've gone through etc. In this case, the binder would be a new character. At minimum, it isn't unreasonable for a cleric to refuse to work with a binder.

Thurbane
2010-09-20, 09:30 PM
Talk to your DM. Talk to the players OOC. How much of a problem clerics have with binders varies by campaign world and specific deities worshipped. Note also that binding is not intrinsically evil, so being around a binder will not make a paladin fall. With the cleric you might even have fun, it could be a good excuse for having IC theological debates.

Binding may also be obscure in your world. If so, the cleric might not even know that you are using a forbidden form of magic.
Agree with this 100% - it's very DM/setting specific. Sure, the fluff in ToM suggests that most churches consider soul binding heresy...but the fluff is pretty mutable.

Tukka
2010-09-20, 09:36 PM
Yeah, I can't see why any but a tiny minority of clerics and paladins would see it as some sort of unacceptable scenario to have a binder in the party. Pact magic may be against their religion, but that's doesn't have to be a showstopper. I do lots of things that violate the tenets of my friends' religions. They might be uncomfortable or suspicious about it, sure, but as long as the people are in the same group and they share some sort of common cause, even if they've just started their adventures together, then the binder should enjoy at least a measure of strained tolerance from the others.

It does seem like something discuss OOC, just in case. Even if someone does really want to play a fanatic who has a strong prejudice against occult practices, so long as the binder isn't brazen about what he's doing, they should have the opportunity to see the value in working together, if not form a rudimentary bond of trust and friendship, to the extent that the devout individual might begrudgingly make an exception in his witch-hunting ways.

lsfreak
2010-09-20, 09:36 PM
Depends on the character, how much they've gone through etc. In this case, the binder would be a new character. At minimum, it isn't unreasonable for a cleric to refuse to work with a binder.

If it's a new character, the cleric pretty much shouldn't have a reason to notice there's a problem. Binders get Bluff and Diplo as class skills, and if they've got a reasonable Int (anything above about 8) they'd know they should stay inside if they've got a bad bind on something that they can't explain away.

fortesama
2010-09-21, 04:46 AM
I'm less worried about the priests in the party raining holy fire on me, assuming i stay on their good side. I'm more worried about them getting excommunicated if word got out... and perhaps having the party get hunted down. Apparently, it's made even worse that our starting place is part of a theocracy.

hewhosaysfish
2010-09-21, 07:30 AM
Sure, the fluff in ToM suggests that most churches consider soul binding heresy...but the fluff is pretty mutable.

That really bugged me, in ToM. The idea that deities who embody virtues like compassion, mercy, justice and/or wisdom go crazy with hate and fear when they encounter something they don't understand and order their followers to kill innocent people (and some not-so-innocent too but still...?) with fire.

WTF?

And what happens if a good-aligned Binder binds a vestige to help people (there are some that let you heal right?) but then gets burned at the stake by an irate Paladin? Fall or no fall? And if they do fall, what do they (and their deity!) think?

Makes not sense...
..Except for the Burning Hate. We know what he's up to.

The Gilded Duke
2010-09-21, 07:47 AM
I once played a changeling binder in a homebrew setting where both changelings and binders were considered to be incarnations of evil... and most likely were. Instead of binding vestiges my character binded aspects of the old god who was imprisoned in the earth.

From the start I figured out that the Shadowcraft Mage belonged to a secret society, and bluffed my way into convincing him that I was a society agent sent to extract him from his current predicament. I kept the bluff going for about a month in game, playing off the different abilities as vague supernatural "tricks".

Once the rest of the party finally saw threw the bluffs I made an offer.

"You might be right. I'm not who I said I was. I'm someone worse. But I've saved your life five times, and if it wasn't for me you would still be in that prison camp. Also, I have been cooking your food for the last month, and you know that I know how to use poisons. The truth is I need your help, and you need mine.

What is worse, a man who knowingly syphons power from the God below... or a group that doesn't know what its doing? Exactly... and thats why we need to stop them."

All in the gravely voice of course. This works a bit with changeling, but if people don't know that you are a binder... how are they to know that your class features change. Against a reoccurring villain use a different attack every time so they overestimate your abilities.

Against our enemies I pretended to be a pseudo demonic entity in the service of our Shadowcraft mage.

2xMachina
2010-09-21, 07:58 AM
Hah, a Changeling Binder BBEG who keeps changing faces and powers would be fun.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-21, 08:01 AM
That really bugged me, in ToM. The idea that deities who embody virtues like compassion, mercy, justice and/or wisdom go crazy with hate and fear when they encounter something they don't understand and order their followers to kill innocent people (and some not-so-innocent too but still...?) with fire.

WTF?

The reason is because you are stitching another being to your soul, possibly corrupting you (not unjustified, seeing as a poor Pact results in them being able to influence you and you not being able to hide their sign).

And the Witch Hunts are greatly exagerated. The American ones especially (those were mostly political, not religious).

2xMachina
2010-09-21, 08:15 AM
But with the LE gods and the CE gods... you'd think they won't pay particular attention to followers of vestiges.

And the CE gods won't give a damn about your corruption. At most lamenting they can't do it themselves.

fortesama
2010-09-21, 08:17 AM
That really bugged me, in ToM. The idea that deities who embody virtues like compassion, mercy, justice and/or wisdom go crazy with hate and fear when they encounter something they don't understand and order their followers to kill innocent people (and some not-so-innocent too but still...?) with fire.

WTF?

And what happens if a good-aligned Binder binds a vestige to help people (there are some that let you heal right?) but then gets burned at the stake by an irate Paladin? Fall or no fall? And if they do fall, what do they (and their deity!) think?

Makes not sense...
..Except for the Burning Hate. We know what he's up to.

From my reading on the fluff, it looks like it's the priests and paladins themselves who fear the binders, and the higher ups and members of a specialized anti-binder organization are the ones most likely to know that they even exist. The existence of beings beyond the reach of their own gods might freak out the clergy of quite a few religions, though i'm guessing those related to deities of magic such as boccob might likely be intrigued instead. There's no mention on what the gods view of pact binding IIRC and some excommunicated cleric binders find that they still have all their clerical abilities as mentioned in the heterodoxy variant.

Person_Man
2010-09-21, 08:24 AM
Honestly, unless you're playing with a bunch of stuck up prima donnas, it shouldn't be an issue. No player is compelled to be a jerk to other players. There are all sorts of potential religious conflicts in D&D, just as there are all sorts of potential religious conflicts in real life. But people can live and work together regardless of whatever their invisible sky beings tell them to believe.

Greenish
2010-09-21, 08:37 AM
we know what happens to those that consort with binders.I don't. :smallamused:

Starbuck_II
2010-09-21, 09:19 AM
The reason is because you are stitching another being to your soul, possibly corrupting you (not unjustified, seeing as a poor Pact results in them being able to influence you and you not being able to hide their sign).

And the Witch Hunts are greatly exagerated. The American ones especially (those were mostly political, not religious).

But you can ignore the influence for a penalty to your stuff. So it is still up to you if you want to follow the influence.

Not all influences are bad.
Aym's bad pact makes you give a coin to any dwarf who introduces himself (I'd give a copper).

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-21, 02:58 PM
An issue with bluffing and "jerk players randomly making knowledge checks" is that knowledge checks shouldn't be optional. If you see a big yellow vehicle vehicle with a stop sign on the side coming down the street, you don't decide whether or not you want to know what it is, you just know that it's a school bus. There is no reason that this should stop PCs from getting along, but it is something to consider. Maybe talk your friends into picking binder-friendly gods?

Thurbane
2010-09-21, 05:15 PM
That really bugged me, in ToM. The idea that deities who embody virtues like compassion, mercy, justice and/or wisdom go crazy with hate and fear when they encounter something they don't understand and order their followers to kill innocent people (and some not-so-innocent too but still...?) with fire.

WTF?
I think it was an effort by WotC to set up an inquisition/witchfinder type scenario for DMs to use as a plot device if they wanted it...since in the magic heavy world of the typical D&D game, hunting Sorcerers or Wizards wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 05:30 PM
I think if the scenario is such that whatever you're doing isn't pressing (read: interesting) enough that the player of a cleric or paladin is going to give you trouble, there's bigger problems than fluff in that group.

Benly
2010-09-21, 05:50 PM
I played in a group where my binder was a devout St. Cuthberite trying to make the best of what he saw as a personal curse: he hears the voices, but he can bring them under control and use their power in the pursuit of justice. The party's cleric knew him as someone doing the best he could with what he had, and they got along fine.

We also had a warlock who was essentially a high-functioning autistic who understood rules but didn't quite grasp what morality was about on more than a childlike level. The cleric had a lot on her plate, really.

2xMachina
2010-09-22, 09:03 AM
But you can ignore the influence for a penalty to your stuff. So it is still up to you if you want to follow the influence.

Not all influences are bad.
Aym's bad pact makes you give a coin to any dwarf who introduces himself (I'd give a copper).

A penny for your name?