Mindflayer's Mind Blast - is or meant to be mind-affecting?

[ffone]

Mindflayer (DMG, not SRD) has its signature ability Mind Blast, a (Sp) which is 'psionic' (in a fluff text way at least), and can stun a foe who failed Will save.

It doesn't say it's [mind-affecting]. But is it meant to be? Is there errata? It certainly *feels* like it.

Or should I interpret the flavor that 'mind' refers to the mindflayer's mind doing the blasting, not the PC's mind being blasted - although the fact that it's a Will save and not a Fort save like Stunning Fist suggests the latter or both. I realize that not all Will save effects are mind-affecting, like Slow.

The most similar spell or psionic power I could find is [mind-affecting]; psion/wilder's Psionic Blast.

This may come up in a session where we have a PC with a terrible Will save but who often has the Mind Blank spell precast on him.

[DrWeird]

I've always ruled it as a will save, simply because Illithids follow that tendency for mastery of the mind. Although, based on the situation and the usage of the DMG in this case, you could rule it either way depending on your interpretation. However, it is in most cases and listing, a mind-affecting ability.

[Tetrasodium]

Mindflayer (DMG, not SRD) has its signature ability Mind Blast, a (Sp) which is 'psionic' (in a fluff text way at least), and can stun a foe who failed Will save.

It doesn't say it's [mind-affecting]. But is it meant to be? Is there errata? It certainly *feels* like it.

Or should I interpret the flavor that 'mind' refers to the mindflayer's mind doing the blasting, not the PC's mind being blasted - although the fact that it's a Will save and not a Fort save like Stunning Fist suggests the latter or both. I realize that not all Will save effects are mind-affecting, like Slow.

The most similar spell or psionic power I could find is [mind-affecting]; psion/wilder's Psionic Blast.

This may come up in a session where we have a PC with a terrible Will save but who often has the Mind Blank spell precast on him.

I'd say it probably is yes. [Mind-affecting] is a tag they are terrible about adding to things that should have it, fear affects are all mind-affecting according to a few sources (mm309ish for example) but almost never include a [mind-affecting] tag.

[ffone]

I've always ruled it as a will save, simply because Illithids follow that tendency for mastery of the mind. Although, based on the situation and the usage of the DMG in this case, you could rule it either way depending on your interpretation. However, it is in most cases and listing, a mind-affecting ability.

It's already listed as a Will save. You say it's listed as [mind-affecting] as well somewhere? Do you happen to remember where?

[ffone]

I'd say it probably is yes. [Mind-affecting] is a tag they are terrible about adding to things that should have it, fear affects are all mind-affecting according to a few sources (mm309ish for example) but almost never include a [mind-affecting] tag.

Yeah, like true dragons' and the tarrasque's frightful presence. Or maybe that's supposed to represent a simple, primal 'decision' on the part of that character that's outside the PC's control (sort of like morale checks for NPCs). Frightful presence is (Ex), which is interesting, maybe it's supposed to represent the sort of good ol' fashioned fear that could lead a Mind Blank character to decide to run away.

[Gametime]

I could see a justification for keeping it non-mind-affecting. Most of the creature types without minds - varieties of undead, constructs, etc. - are immune to the stun anyway, and there's an argument to be made that a spell like Mind Blank wouldn't deter a Mind Blast; you aren't concerned with manipulating the mind, or viewing it, which would be foiled by a Mind Blank, but with smashing it. It's like attempting a Disguise check to stop a punch.

Of course, it's probably more sensible to just treat it as mind-affecting. My personal favorite example of something not being mind-affecting has to be Mindsight. Why yes, yes I can telepathically sense you regardless of whether you have impenetrable mental shields up!

[Hague]

I believe the Mind Blast listed in the alternate psionic Illithid in EPH is mind-affecting.

[DrWeird]

Part of their listings is that they fear undead more than anything. In some text (I believe Lords of Madness) they state undead being their greatest fear, due to immunity of being mentally sensed or affected by their Mind Blast.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Part of their listings is that they fear undead more than anything. In some text (I believe Lords of Madness) they state undead being their greatest fear, due to immunity of being mentally sensed or affected by their Mind Blast.

Undead are immune to the stun condition. Mind Blast inflicts the stun condition. QED, even without the mind-affecting tag, they're immune. If the ability doesn't have the tag, then it doesn't have the tag - simple as that.

[DrWeird]

Long story short: Mind-Affecting, unless you don't want it to be. Have DM-type fun.

[ffone]

Undead are immune to the stun condition. Mind Blast inflicts the stun condition. QED, even without the mind-affecting tag, they're immune. If the ability doesn't have the tag, then it doesn't have the tag - simple as that.

Yeah, this is my sense too: RAW, not [mind-affecting], but 'circumstantially' closer to it than anything else I can think of. But I wouldn't be surprises if there were errata, or updates/variants like the EPH illithid referenced above, under which it's [mind-affecting.

Balance wise, I suppose a PC who tanks his Will save (took the Weak Will flaw, even) and expects to cover for it with Mind Blank can still have fun with the occasional non-'blankable' Will save effect like Slow, Telekinesis, Inflict-X-Wounds, Harm, and this.

[Remmirath]

I would say it's obviously meant to be mind-affecting. It is, after all, called Mind Blast, Mindflayers are psionic, and it is resisted by a will save. Since it doesn't explicitly state that it is mind-affecting then you could claim it isn't if you'd prefer, but I would certainly say that it is.

[panaikhan]

Some abilities only list saves for secondary effects.
I don't have any books with me, but does the will save stop the damage? Or just the stun?
If it stops the damage and the stun, then it's mind-effecting. If it just stops the stun, i'd say it was a 'force' attack with secondary effects.

[Lhurgyof]

Some abilities only list saves for secondary effects.
I don't have any books with me, but does the will save stop the damage? Or just the stun?
If it stops the damage and the stun, then it's mind-effecting. If it just stops the stun, i'd say it was a 'force' attack with secondary effects.

I don't believe it does actual damage.

The whole thing with the mindflayers is that it's a throwback to the old Psionic attack/defense modes. And using them on a non-psionic character would cause them to be stunned.

[Tetrasodium]

Yeah, like true dragons' and the tarrasque's frightful presence. Or maybe that's supposed to represent a simple, primal 'decision' on the part of that character that's outside the PC's control (sort of like morale checks for NPCs). Frightful presence is (Ex), which is interesting, maybe it's supposed to represent the sort of good ol' fashioned fear that could lead a Mind Blank character to decide to run away.

The page I referenced is about frightful presence, but I think it's fear effects in general. All of these say it's mind affecting and have a good description of the effect's mechanics

Fear cone (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_fearcone&alpha=)
These effects usually work like the fear spell. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 fearsome creature's racial HD + creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

Source: MM, MM3

fear ray (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_fearray&alpha=)
These effects usually work like the fear spell. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 fearsome creature's racial HD + creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

Source: MM, MM3

Frightful Presence (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_frightfulpresence&alpha=)
This extraordinary ability makes a creature's very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken.

Actions required to trigger the special quality are given in the creature's descriptive text. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds.

This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the creature has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 frightful creature's racial HD + frightful creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to that same creature's frightful presence for 24 hours. Frightful presence is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Source: MM, MM3


But then there are a couple that don't mention it and are a bit hazy.

fear aura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_fearaura&alpha=)
The use of this supernatural ability is a free action. The aura can freeze an opponent (such as a mummy's despair) or function like the fear spell* (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fear_(Spell)) (for example, the aura of a lich). Other effects are possible. A fear aura is an area effect. The descriptive text gives the size and kind of area.

Source: MM, MM3

fear effect (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_feareffect&alpha=)
Any spell or magical effect that causes the victim to become shaken, frightened, or panicked, or to suffer from some other fear-based effect defined in the description of the specific spell or item in question. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect.

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

Source: PHB

With fear aura, one of the three examples given specifically states that it's mind affecting (fear spell), the lich's aura says "save or be affected as though by a fear spell"... so references the mind-affecting spell. Mummy despair just says or be paralyzed with fear so isn't very specific, but crushing despair (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Crushing_Despair) is mind affecting.

Fear Effect doesn't really give any examples of spells/abilities that cause it or defenses beyond the fact that it's usually a will save to resist, but it's only in the PHB and all the other examples are in MM3 with a later publish date than PHB.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*snip*

Just because most (if not all) fear effects are mind-affecting does not necessitate that fear ability X be a mind-affecting ability as no rule in particular calls fear abilities out in their need to have the descriptor, unlike, say, enchantment spells. Another point is that mind blast is not a fear ability.

EDIT: Neither the errata nor the XPH changes the mind blast ability into a mind-affecting one. As such, it's just a will save or stun. Nothing more or less.