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View Full Version : Awakened undead and feats\skills



Sewercop
2010-09-21, 02:34 PM
The Awaken Undead spell in Libris Mortis says that they regain extraordinary abillities they had in life. Weapon and armor proficiencies aswell. But they do not regain feats or skills. Ok.

When they become awakened, do they get feats and skills then? Not the old skills and feats, but new ones based on hd? Or are an awkened skeleton of 20hd forever stuck with nothing at all... except when they get a class level... wich would take forever since they kinda suck.
I am asuming a standard human skelly.

I have my own idea, but I would like to hear what people here have to say without being influenced by what I think.

Duke of URL
2010-09-21, 02:36 PM
The Awaken Undead spell in Libris Mortis says that they regain extraordinary abillities they had in life. Weapon and armor proficiencies aswell. But they do not regain feats or skills. Ok.

When they become awakened, do they get feats and skills then? Not the old skills and feats, but new ones based on hd? Or are an awkened skeleton of 20hd forever stuck with nothing at all... except when they get a class level... wich would take forever since they kinda suck.
I am asuming a standard human skelly.

I have my own idea, but I would like to hear what people here have to say without being influenced by what I think.

I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe the answer is that they gain feats and skills based on HD and type (Undead).

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-21, 02:55 PM
The Awaken Undead spell descriptions in Libris Mortis and in the Spell Compendium between them are different, but not mutually exclusive. Libris Mortis version makes a point of specifically saying you don't get (back) the skills and feats the creature had when it was alive: "Undead creature do not regain the skills and feats they had in life". Spell Compendium version makes a point of specifically saying it gets skills and feats appropriate to it's hit dice, replacing the quoted line in the Lib Mort version with "See MM for the skills and feats the creature gains". Other than that, both spells are word-for-word identical.

Neither spell description comes out and says it (and the Customer Service and FAQ both helpfully seem to totally miss the Spell Compendium version at all), but the implication between the two write ups is that the creature doesn't get what skills and feats it had in life, but does get new feats and skills appropriate to it's HD.

As I say, the two are not mutually exclusive, and even make kind of sense, since it implies Awaken Undead actually makes a new intelligence, a new creature (argueably, it makes a new soul...)

Interesting implication, don't you think? Who says the power of entropy can't create anything!

herrhauptmann
2010-09-21, 02:56 PM
I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe the answer is that they gain feats and skills based on HD and type (Undead).

That could work, and is probably the way intended.
Another option, as your 20HD skeleton gains levels, he actually converts his undead HD into his old class levels. Skele20 -> Skele19/Ftr1 -> Skele18/Ftr2 etc

Sewercop
2010-09-21, 03:12 PM
The Awaken Undead spell descriptions in Libris Mortis and in the Spell Compendium between them are different, but not mutually exclusive. Libris Mortis version makes a point of specifically saying you don't get (back) the skills and feats the creature had when it was alive: "Undead creature do not regain the skills and feats they had in life". Spell Compendium version makes a point of specifically saying it gets skills and feats appropriate to it's hit dice, replacing the quoted line in the Lib Mort version with "See MM for the skills and feats the creature gains". Other than that, both spells are word-for-word identical.

Neither spell description comes out and says it (and the Customer Service and FAQ both helpfully seem to totally miss the Spell Compendium version at all), but the implication between the two write ups is that the creature doesn't get what skills and feats it had in life, but does get new feats and skills appropriate to it's HD.

As I say, the two are not mutually exclusive, and even make kind of sense, since it implies Awaken Undead actually makes a new intelligence, a new creature (argueably, it makes a new soul...)

Interesting implication, don't you think? Who says the power of entropy can't create anything!

Thanks mate :) That was what i was thinking myself. I just needed to pull out my spell compendium from the shelf. Thanks again.

If it creates a new soul... Well, if you hit it with a true resurection what would happen? The skeleton itself are one creature, but one can argue for the possibility that they actually are two and the original form for the new soul are the skeleton...
huh?
You know what? I got my answer :)
Would be funny thou to see the paladin with a resurection scroll and if he was willing to murder a new life to save an old one. Morals :)

Sewercop
2010-09-21, 03:14 PM
That could work, and is probably the way intended.
Another option, as your 20HD skeleton gains levels, he actually converts his undead HD into his old class levels. Skele20 -> Skele19/Ftr1 -> Skele18/Ftr2 etc

I could see that working too. I like the idea. But this time I think i am going to stick with the rules. Thanks anyway :)

Gensh
2010-09-21, 03:47 PM
Thanks mate :) That was what i was thinking myself. I just needed to pull out my spell compendium from the shelf. Thanks again.

If it creates a new soul... Well, if you hit it with a true resurection what would happen? The skeleton itself are one creature, but one can argue for the possibility that they actually are two and the original form for the new soul are the skeleton...
huh?
You know what? I got my answer :)
Would be funny thou to see the paladin with a resurection scroll and if he was willing to murder a new life to save an old one. Morals :)

I'd probably follow precedent on that one and have the new personality vanish without so much as a puff of smoke because it's "unnatural." Poor Roxas. Actually, I hated him, but that's beside the point.

Benly
2010-09-21, 04:44 PM
True Resurrection creates a new body if the old one is unavailable. Since the object that was formerly "Dave's corpse" is now "The unliving body of Evad The Skeleton", I would say that no object currently exists which is Dave's corpse and a new body is created. True Resurrection can't resurrect someone who is currently undead, but if Awaken creates a new intelligence with its own personality, feats and skills, you can make a decent case for that undead creature not being Dave.

Hague
2010-09-21, 05:00 PM
Yeah, True Resurrection would bring Dave back in a new body and Nega-Dave would still exist.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-21, 05:05 PM
Basic rule: if it has an Int score, it has skills and feats.

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 06:13 PM
True Resurrection creates a new body if the old one is unavailable. Since the object that was formerly "Dave's corpse" is now "The unliving body of Evad The Skeleton", I would say that no object currently exists which is Dave's corpse and a new body is created. True Resurrection can't resurrect someone who is currently undead, but if Awaken creates a new intelligence with its own personality, feats and skills, you can make a decent case for that undead creature not being Dave.


Yeah, True Resurrection would bring Dave back in a new body and Nega-Dave would still exist.

I smell sit com~~! :smallbiggrin:

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-21, 06:17 PM
My reasoning for it creating a new soul rests on the fact the spell creates new mental stats (just like the other Awaken spells do), rather than recalling the old ones. It's just more amusing in this case. Using an [Evil] descriptor (whether or not that morally means anything in the long run) Necromacy spell to create a whole new creature just strikes me as kind of jolly...


Yeah, True Resurrection would bring Dave back in a new body and Nega-Dave would still exist.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

And, as they say, there's a quest in that...


Basic rule: if it has an Int score, it has skills and feats.

Pretty much, though the Libris Mortis version (compounded by inept answer in the FAQ (or was it Sage Advice, I forget) makes things murky, even if it doesn't right-out come out and say you don't get skills and feats, it sort of seems to imply it. Neither write-up is especially clear, which it really should have been to avoid exactly this sort of debate! I think the intention with the original was to not let you (if the FAQs on the subject are of any moment) - but the guy who write it up for SpC realised that was both kinda harsh and kinda stupid. Why he didn't just put a line in saying: "the creature does not get the skills and feats it had in life. However, it does get new feats and skills based on it's HD as normal" I do not know. Mind you, this was the same crowd who managed to miss out half the critical information from Sarchophagus of Stone, so...!

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-21, 07:04 PM
My reasoning for it creating a new soul rests on the fact the spell creates new mental stats (just like the other Awaken spells do)

But as I recall the awakened undead can't be any more intelligent then the former. If the zombie ogre had 6 intelligence in life once awakened he's limited to that intelligent. This implies that something of the host resides,

I'd split the difference, Mortis implies that animated undead involve an evil spirit inhabiting the body,[unlike a golem which uses an elemental spirit]. By awakening the undead you could say your granting it some of the hosts former intelligence.

Benly
2010-09-21, 07:17 PM
But as I recall the awakened undead can't be any more intelligent then the former. If the zombie ogre had 6 intelligence in life once awakened he's limited to that intelligent. This implies that something of the host resides,

Actually, it can't be more intelligent than a typical living creature of the same kind. If you are awakening a human skeleton made from a dullard who had Int 7 in life, there's a good chance the new skeleton will be smarter than the living creature was, since it has a maximum intelligence of 10 (human average - arguably it would be allowed 11 if it could roll that high, but 10 is the highest the spell's 1d6+4 allows).

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 07:17 PM
And, really, it's even better anti-hero material than the tiefling warlock. Literally made of evil, in certain cases.

And still less silly than Ms. Succubus Pally.

Thurbane
2010-09-21, 07:18 PM
Assuming it does get skills (4+int per HD), what skills are consider "class skills"? Since skeletons and zombies have no skills listed, doe that mean they have to spend all of those skill points on cross-class skills?

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-21, 07:21 PM
Assuming it does get skills (4+int per HD), what skills are consider "class skills"? Since skeletons and zombies have no skills listed, doe that mean they have to spend all of those skill points on cross-class skills?

If it's a monster, I'd go for the class skills being the skills of the monster. It's more of a problem if it's humanoid. I'd rationalise, though, that as you keep the weapon and armour proficiencies, it might be fair to say you'd count the creature's original class's skills as the class skills - either that or you call commoner or warrior skills, citing them as being the "average". (Personally, I'd go for the former.)

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 07:27 PM
Assuming it does get skills (4+int per HD), what skills are consider "class skills"? Since skeletons and zombies have no skills listed, doe that mean they have to spend all of those skill points on cross-class skills?

Aren't there some general skills associated with the type?

Fax Celestis
2010-09-21, 07:29 PM
Aren't there some general skills associated with the type?

No, skills are racial, not typical.

Benly
2010-09-21, 07:31 PM
Aren't there some general skills associated with the type?

Not in the SRD, at least. Under both "monsters as characters" and "advancing monsters" the only mention of class skills is that they use the skills mentioned in the monster entry.

Coidzor
2010-09-21, 07:37 PM
Ahh, learn something new every day.

Hague
2010-09-21, 08:03 PM
Presumably it'd be the class skills of Warrior 1. If it were some other monstrous race, it'd have the skills of it's originating race. Though, I'd just go with whatever its base class was at the beginning or simply grant a random class to the awakened undead. Imagine the horror of a 9 int awakened skeleton wizard :P. That is to say, if it's the skeleton of a 9th level commoner it becomes a 1st level commoner.

WinWin
2010-09-21, 08:07 PM
I think you will have to houserule what skills they have access to. Their are no class skills for unintelligent undead, so that would mean everything would be cross-class.

I would suggest that Physical skills (jump, climb, etc) and craft/profession would be a good start. Otherwise, just use the NPC warrior list as Hague suggested.