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FuryOfMetal
2010-09-21, 03:15 PM
What feats, equipment and classes go into an Ubercharger? Basic question :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 03:18 PM
Varies. However, a great sword or spiked chain are popular weapons. Power attack and Shock Trooper are typically standard.

Races vary, but things with a strength bonus are favored. Human also can be handy, for the feat. Barbarian is considered nice, at least for a dip.

Im also a fan of the charge boosting feats from Eberron Campaign Setting, personally.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-21, 03:18 PM
2 handed Adamant/greenstar metal weapon (CArc weapon that means every Greenstar Adept will be looking to eat your weapon)
Leap attack (CAdv), Combat Brute(CWar), Shocktrooper(Cwar). All prereqs
Spirit Lion totem barb1 (CChamp)
Belt of Battle
Lots of power attack
Frenzied Berserker (even more power attack)
Valorous weapon (double charging damage)
I usually get a smoking weapon for some flat miss chances too, otherwise I don't last too long due to shocktrooper dropping my AC to 2.
Weapon size increases (strongarm bracers, [heavy] weapons, Large size creature, psionic expansion)


Might I recommend retaliation armor or retribution amulet (BoED version)? The enemy's gonna get you good in exchange, but you can make them pay for hurting you. With the armor and power attacking for only 5, no pounce and no crits, had a level 12 fighter almost take down a Nightmare Beast (CR 15 or so). The downside is that I was at 19 HP and about to eat a second full attack.

mostlyharmful
2010-09-21, 03:51 PM
what's mostly required is a willingness to crank the system, a restiveness to play a caster and an oafishness to break a GMs carefully created landscape as you do ten to the third power levels of damage......... good times....

Person_Man
2010-09-21, 04:06 PM
Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) + Optimized Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087) + Lots of Attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) = Uber Charger

There are several other back door methods as well involving Tome of Battle maneuvers, Incarnum, Iaijutsu Focus, etc. But the most important piece of advice on uber chargers is to not over do it. There are plenty of ways to get thousands of points of damage per round. But the Tarrasque only has 858 hit points. Pushing your damage output up to absurd levels just forces the DM to make the encounters more difficult.

JaronK
2010-09-21, 04:16 PM
I would argue that an ubercharger by definition is overdoing it. A "charger" is a character that specializes in defeating enemies by charging them... it's quite possible to have a reasonable one in game. An "ubercharger" is a charger that is intentionally unreasonable, doing absolutely insane amounts of damage. Really, I'd say you're not an "ubercharger" unless you can one hit TKO any opponent you'd ever reasonably fight... and you have multiple attacks to do it with.

Anyway, as Person Man has stated the basics of ubercharging involve getting pounce somehow (usually with Lion Totem Barbarian, as that's the easiest way), then optimizing Power Attack to extremes (usually with Shock Trooper + either Leap Attack or Spirited Charge, along with Valorous weapons and the Headlong Rush feat, and maybe with some Frenzied Berserker). Then consider extra attacks (Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, for example, or the Ferral template) and go nuts.

Note that a DM can still easily challenge an ubercharger... not everything can be solved by charging. Use of terrain, large numbers of enemies (as opposed to one big one), or simple non combat encounters can do the trick. Most Uberchargers use Shock Trooper and thus are very vulnerable to attacks from the second wave of enemies, and often have relatively poor Reflex and Will saves (not necessarily, of course).

JaronK

Mando Knight
2010-09-21, 04:20 PM
Übercharging isn't broken... after all, it's still only weapon-based attacks. Now, if it were an Übercharging CoDzilla, then it would be broken.

...No, wait. That's the definition of Tier 1 classes. Nevermind. :smallamused:

Postmodernist
2010-09-21, 04:25 PM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109775) has a number of good ideas, though it's specifically fluffed for Warforged. In particular, look at post #10. Make note of the caveat, "also note that your DM might just shoot you in the face with a pneumatic hammer gun."

classy one
2010-09-21, 05:11 PM
I think deep impact is nice too. If you are going with psionic build, psionic lion charge and expansion are charging gold.

Eldariel
2010-09-21, 05:17 PM
I think you're confusing terms; Charger is probably what you're looking for. Ubercharger is basically a Theoretical Optimization exercise to see how much damage you can squeeze out of a charger build.

FMArthur
2010-09-21, 05:44 PM
I still haven't figured out a way to remount at the end of my leap for Leap Attack, and this makes me sad. Any advice? I'd like to avoid centaur if possible because my mount will be flying, to take advantage of the 'diving charge' the dragonborn template is giving me.

Mongoose87
2010-09-21, 05:49 PM
I still haven't figured out a way to remount at the end of my leap for Leap Attack, and this makes me sad. Any advice? I'd like to avoid centaur if possible because my mount will be flying, to take advantage of the 'diving charge' the dragonborn template is giving me.

Have your mount be a centaur, wear two gauntlets with "Returning," have him throw you by the hands.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-21, 07:42 PM
I still haven't figured out a way to remount at the end of my leap for Leap Attack, and this makes me sad. Any advice? I'd like to avoid centaur if possible because my mount will be flying, to take advantage of the 'diving charge' the dragonborn template is giving me.

You're leap attacking off of the back of a flying mount?
There's a prestige class, I think Great Rift sky defender which does just that.
Trying to find what book it's in, but coming up blank. A number of its abilities refer to a 'drogue wing.'

Rather then centaur, play as a bariaur. Same body shape, but fewer RHD.

Urpriest
2010-09-21, 08:38 PM
Doesn't making your mount jump count as you jumping? I would think it would work like charging, though I guess I wouldn't be surprised if no specific rule allows it.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-21, 09:02 PM
Urpriest, pretty sure a few FAQ, Ask Sage, and general consensus on the board is that riding a mount for ubercharging doesn't allow you to use leap attack.
That's part of why so many of the builds use tauric template, centaurs, bariaurs, and that inevitable in MM1.

If I'm wrong on that, then I'm making it a houserule in my games.

Endarire
2010-09-21, 11:33 PM
Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon). Just because running up the enemy's leg, jumping onto his head, full attacking, and gliding onto your dragon mount is uber.

FuryOfMetal
2010-09-22, 07:03 AM
Yeah i see now that i should've specified Charger, just Ubercharger is the in-thing term wise :smallwink:

I think i'd stick with lion totem barbarian, valorous smoky sizing weapons, strongarm bracers and maybe a friendly mage for enlarge person, combat brute and shock trooper. Alot of fun there surely :smallbiggrin:

I know shock trooper is powerful but thematically i prefer the other abilities it gives you for bullrushing entire phalanxes of enemies :smalleek:....i think.

Also i believe i never really understood the power of leap attack, could somebody explain to me it's usage?

:edit: I got leap attack confused with some other similiar sounding feat, leap attack is great now i read it and i couldn't have misunderstood it.

Greenish
2010-09-22, 07:11 AM
Also i believe i never really understood the power of leap attack, could somebody explain to me it's usage?You jump while charging and do more damage.

Ernir
2010-09-22, 07:16 AM
Urpriest, pretty sure a few FAQ, Ask Sage, and general consensus on the board is that riding a mount for ubercharging doesn't allow you to use leap attack.
My favourite way around that kind of stuff is to just stand on the damn horse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#ride), and argue that the "The character takes no penalties to actions while doing so" means that anything I can do on the ground, I can now do on horseback. :smalltongue:

:edit: I got leap attack confused with some other similiar sounding feat, leap attack is great now i read it and i couldn't have misunderstood it.
Make sure you have read the CAdv Errata too, there is more to it. :smallsigh:

You're leap attacking off of the back of a flying mount?
There's a prestige class, I think Great Rift sky defender which does just that.
Trying to find what book it's in, but coming up blank. A number of its abilities refer to a 'drogue wing.'

Great Rift Skyguard, Races of Faerûn.

FuryOfMetal
2010-09-22, 09:34 AM
Make sure you have read the CAdv Errata too, there is more to it. :smallsigh:


Just found it:
Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should
read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with
your jump, and you end your jump in a square from
which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the
normal bonus damage from your use of the Power
Attack feat.

I know there is some strange crossover between normal maths and dnd maths, but i thought you could apply feat effects in any order you wish. So you could apply leap attacks bonus after power attack, getting you double power attack. From then on apply the other feats in order to double (which makes it x3 power attack, then x4 etc.) the leap attacked power attack score? Please tell me if i'm way off here

Greenish
2010-09-22, 09:39 AM
With normal PA with a two-hander, you'll get 1:2 returns. Leap Attack increases those returns by 100%, that is, to 1:4.

That only affects PA, after which you take your total damage and apply other modifiers, such as Valorous weapon's x2 to it.

Shenanigans
2010-09-22, 05:57 PM
With normal PA with a two-hander, you'll get 1:2 returns. Leap Attack increases those returns by 100%, that is, to 1:4.

That only affects PA, after which you take your total damage and apply other modifiers, such as Valorous weapon's x2 to it.
Well, actually you only get 1:3 on PA with Leap Attack on a two-handed weapon, and 1:2 with a one-handed weapon.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3

Urpriest
2010-09-22, 06:15 PM
Well, actually you only get 1:3 on PA with Leap Attack on a two-handed weapon, and 1:2 with a one-handed weapon.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3

The errata makes it 1:4 (that's the argument anyway, I think it's just a clumsy way of saying 1:3).

FuryOfMetal
2010-09-22, 07:05 PM
Man i hate dnd maths, I know it tries to promote balance but it's annoying :smallfrown:

Curmudgeon
2010-09-22, 07:23 PM
Well, actually you only get 1:3 on PA with Leap Attack on a two-handed weapon, and 1:2 with a one-handed weapon.
No, it's 1:4. You just need to look in two different places to piece it all together.

Leap Attack feat (Complete Adventurer, page 110), with erratum:

Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.
To understand what "+100% the normal bonus damage" means, we need to look elsewhere.

Complete Warrior Errata:

Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls.

Note importantly that this erratum takes Leap Attack out of all charge damage multiplications. If you have any other charge multipliers, figure those separately and then Leap Attack adds +1 (for a 1-handed nonlight weapon) or +2 (for a 2-handed weapon) for each -1 Power Attack penalty point.

Shenanigans
2010-09-22, 08:18 PM
Thanks for the clarification folks. I now seem to recall a thread that dealt with this Leap Attack issue. And here I thought it was just deja vu all over again.

If I were DMing, I'd be tempted to houserule it in the spirit of the usual "two doublings is a tripling" logic that usually seems to reign in 3.X.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-09-22, 10:43 PM
Hafling outrider can actually make a pretty good charger class in most games. The ability to charge through allied squares can be invaluable for setting up a charge every round. Pick up Spirited charge, Shock trooper, Power attack, and lion-totem-barbarian-pounce, and you're good to go.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 09:27 AM
Note importantly that this erratum takes Leap Attack out of all charge damage multiplications. If you have any other charge multipliers, figure those separately and then Leap Attack adds +1 (for a 1-handed nonlight weapon) or +2 (for a 2-handed weapon) for each -1 Power Attack penalty point.It does? I'm not quite sure on how that follows from the errata you quoted, since it seems just to say that the "+100% increase" just increases the PA ratio from 1:2 to 1:4.

It's still a bonus on the damage roll, so why isn't it multiplied?

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 01:35 PM
It does? I'm not quite sure on how that follows from the errata you quoted, since it seems just to say that the "+100% increase" just increases the PA ratio from 1:2 to 1:4.

It's still a bonus on the damage roll, so why isn't it multiplied?
Because the erratum says it's always simply added. No multiplication is allowed.

Urpriest
2010-09-23, 01:45 PM
Because the erratum says it's always simply added. No multiplication is allowed.

Even if the foe has vulnerability? This seems rather silly.

It is abundantly clear that it adds it to the bonus damage from power attack, not to the damage of the attack period. Otherwise it would add damage to, for example, the use of whips on unarmored targets.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 01:47 PM
Because the erratum says it's always simply added. No multiplication is allowed.I… think I almost get it, but the CWar errata does call it "bonus on damage rolls", which should be multiplied like everything else. :smallconfused:

The "wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls" seems to suggest that the extra damage works just like what you get from normal PA.

Can you walk me through your argument again, as if talking to a simpleton. ("As if", hehe.)

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 01:49 PM
It is abundantly clear that it adds it to the bonus damage from power attack, not to the damage of the attack period.
I never said otherwise. Leap Attack is just outside of any other ways of multiplying your Power Attack. So do all those other things that multiply Power Attack, and then add the Leap Attack bonus at the end. That's all there is to the change.

The "wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls" seems to suggest that the extra damage works just like what you get from normal PA.
If there's nothing else changing how Power Attack works, it's all the same. If, however, you have some other change that multiplies your Power Attack ratio, you leave Leap Attack out of that.

Let's say you've got Favored Power Attack as well as Leap Attack. You're making a leaping attack against a favored enemy with a 2-handed weapon; that gives you a 3:1 return on your Power Attack modifier. So you subtract 5 from your attack, and if you hit, get 3x5 = +15 to damage from Favored Power Attack. You also get a 2:1 return on your Power Attack modifier for Leap Attack. That gives 2x5 = +10 from Leap Attack. You add those together and get +25 as your total Power Attack bonus.

If Leap Attack were a x4 multiplier you would instead use D&D math to combine x3 (Favored Power Attack) and x4 (Leap Attack) for a total of x6, giving you 6x5 = +30.

Edit: I goofed on the example calculation. Corrected items are in red.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 02:39 PM
Let's say you've got Favored Power Attack as well as Leap Attack. You're making a leaping attack against a favored enemy with a 2-handed weapon; that gives you a 3:1 return on your Power Attack modifier. So you subtract 5 from your attack, and if you hit, get 3x5 = +15 to damage from Favored Power Attack. You also get a 4:1 return on your Power Attack modifier for Leap Attack. That gives 4x5 = +20 from Leap Attack. You add those together and get +35 as your total Power Attack bonus.Wait wait, +20 from Leap Attack alone? But it says that you gain +4 instead of +2 for each point of BAB you ditch. Also, wouldn't that total PA bonus still be multiplied by things such as Valorous Weapon?

I still don't understand why it would be calculated like that. Without the CWar errata you quoted, I might, but that seems to imply that it merely changes the ratio to 1:4.

FuryOfMetal
2010-09-23, 05:31 PM
WoTC should publish an article entirely based upon making this understandable :smalleek: At this point i can't help you guys come to a conclusion from a RAW standpoint as I'm rather confused. Should really change the thread title to include the PA incoherence :smallbiggrin:

Urpriest
2010-09-23, 08:00 PM
Curmudgeon, I thought you were insisting that Leap Attack didn't stack with Valorous Weapon. Your actual point is much more sensible, and is a fine example of D&D math, up to a point. My apologies.

However, it appears your example is slightly off-kilter. Leap Attack adds 100% of your Power Attack value to your new damage. If your Power Attack is 1:2, this means you add an additional 2 and it becomes 1:4. If your Power Attack is 1:3 from Favored Power Attack and they combine via D&D math, you get 2x100% of your penalty+1x100% of your penalty=3x100% of your penalty bonus damage, or a 1:5 Power Attack. If it did not combine via D&D math you would look at your new 1:3 multiplier and then take 100% of that, getting a 1:6 multiplier. Neither interpretation gives the 1:7 multiplier you present. I believe your 1:7 neglects the fact that the base damage is accounted for in both Favored Power Attack and Leap Attack.

ffone
2010-09-23, 08:26 PM
I had to Google for this a Leap Attack PC, and found a thread by Person_Man (active member and guidemaker here at GITP) who went so far as to contact Wizards support, which gave him the 1:4 answer for two-handed leap attack, and then later corrected themselves to 1:3.

I favor 1:3, because the DnD metarule that multipliers always stack additivity s clearly intended to take precedence over the nuanes and subjectivity of English or any other language. It's just too agonizing to argue about the exact grammar of various feat and ability descriptions and how they work with each other, when neither was really written with the other in mind. Also, the whole point of the metarule is to suspend normal English, where things like "double" or "100%" would mean successive multiplication.

Also, one could argue that the word "normal" in the errata means 'before things like Favored Power Attack and Frenzied Berserker increases."

Shame on Wizards for not making such an obvious issue clear in the original Complete Warrior. If you Google, there are a dozen other debate threads about Leap Attack out there. =P

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 08:28 PM
However, it appears your example is slightly off-kilter. Leap Attack adds 100% of your Power Attack value to your new damage.
You're entirely correct; I goofed on my example calculation. I've gone back and edited that example, with corrections highlighted.

Sorry for the confusion.

Zen Master
2010-09-24, 02:46 AM
Im also a fan of the charge boosting feats from Eberron Campaign Setting, personally.

This.

Get enough strength to not need any of your base attack. Grab any handy 2-hander. Take the charge feats mentioned (oh - and be large or huge), and get swinging.

On a sidenote, pounce isn't really necessary if you one-shot enemies.

So that's the baseline. From there it goes up, and up. But I like manouverability more than extra damage. Also, battlefield control tends to bore me - if I'm not taking any damage, where's the challenge?

ffone
2010-09-24, 03:25 AM
Right now I'm DMing an ubercharger PC (who's been very good about it - she even corrected me on Leap Attack two-handed being 1:3 and not 1:4).

She knew about the spirit lion totem variant (trades +10' for Pounce, which I consider crazy overpowered, especially for dipping, but would've allowed her) but didn't take it - and so far the 10' movement has benefitted her more, since she's been one-shotting most things but sometimes the movement makes the difference between 1 attack and 0.

What to others think about this class variant? Is it ridiculous - a mandatory one-level dip for any nonlawful melee character - or OK?

FuryOfMetal
2010-09-24, 07:47 AM
I think that the optimisation trends of the internet would say that it's better to have pounce (as it's rediculous). However in a real game you're right, you're one shotting your target on the end of that charge so you don't need the extra attack. You're easily doing twice as much damage as you need to kill something of an appropriate CR. So the extra movement speed helps you get those long range charges and gives you more possible targets to charge, especially with the feat or skill trick for altering your charge's direction by 90 degrees.

(I'm generalising but it seems true.

Greenish
2010-09-24, 08:01 AM
What to others think about this class variant? Is it ridiculous - a mandatory one-level dip for any nonlawful melee character - or OK?The ability to move and full attack is something most any melee will want, especially if you haven't boosted your hits to the point you one-shot anything (and if you have, get reach and one-shot everything :smallwink:)

Whether you think that melee characters should be limited to move + single attack while casters can shoot two spells a round and move…

Zen Master
2010-09-24, 12:52 PM
The ability to move and full attack is something most any melee will want, especially if you haven't boosted your hits to the point you one-shot anything (and if you have, get reach and one-shot everything :smallwink:)

Well - yea ... but DM's tend to figure that one out and just spread the enemies around more. And really, that's not even unfair - most enemies should be clever enough to think of that.

Greenish
2010-09-24, 08:03 PM
Well - yea ... but DM's tend to figure that one out and just spread the enemies around more. And really, that's not even unfair - most enemies should be clever enough to think of that.Get more reach! :smallwink:

Anyway, if the enemies are intelligent enough to spread out to avoid being wiped out in one charge, one should think them intelligent enough to try to surrender or flee after the first few go splat in one hit.

JaronK
2010-09-25, 02:14 AM
Get more reach! :smallwink:

Anyway, if the enemies are intelligent enough to spread out to avoid being wiped out in one charge, one should think them intelligent enough to try to surrender or flee after the first few go splat in one hit.

Or, you know, shoot/dogpile the guy whose AC is now negative. And maybe just stay on him since he can't charge once you pile on. Or just cast Grease and giggle (at least if he went the FB route). Or shoot and then use a move action to get out of a decent charge line via terrain. There are definitely options.

JaronK

ffone
2010-09-25, 02:19 AM
The ubercharger PC I'm DMing uses a bunch of miss chance items to deal with the Shock Trooper AC sink, which is reasonably clever - she also has a number of speed enhancing and difficult-terrain-charging items and abilities. It's actually been really fun, with enemies using varied terrain like decks and rigging of pirate ships. Although we haven't done invisible or flying foes yet (still a new campaign).

Zen Master
2010-09-25, 04:27 AM
Get more reach! :smallwink:

Anyway, if the enemies are intelligent enough to spread out to avoid being wiped out in one charge, one should think them intelligent enough to try to surrender or flee after the first few go splat in one hit.

Well - you seem to assume that an enemy you can one-shot, cannot in turn one-shot you. I never said the enemy coulnd't also have uberchargers.

No, uberchargers are fun for the damage they deal - but also for the weakness they have, namely that once they've charged and killed something, they tend to get pretty badly beat up themselves.

I've had barrels of laughs when my poor teammates had to scramble to try and keep me alive when the enemy retaliated. Good fun.

Greenish
2010-09-25, 08:11 AM
No, uberchargers are fun for the damage they deal - but also for the weakness they have, namely that once they've charged and killed something, they tend to get pretty badly beat up themselves.Well, reach, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still helps there, too. It's never a bad idea to have reach.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-25, 08:43 AM
what's mostly required is a willingness to crank the system, a restiveness to play a caster and an oafishness to break a GMs carefully created landscape as you do ten to the third power levels of damage......... good times....

Ten to the third power is only one thousand, you know. Not enough to deform the landscape!

2xMachina
2010-09-25, 09:14 AM
Well, reach, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still helps there, too. It's never a bad idea to have reach.

Maneuvers also help. Manticore Parry and Wall of Blades can shore up your defense.

ffone
2010-09-26, 01:57 AM
Oh, another question - how does all this work with crits? Is two-handed PA on a crit (let's say x2 multiplier weapon) 1:3 or 1:4? What about with Leap Attack?

herrhauptmann
2010-09-26, 02:47 AM
For crits, say your 2d6 greatsword, damage becomes 4d6.
Everything else: Add up what your power attack damage would be (say 15), plus stat bonuses (+7 str) that go towards damage plus magic enhancements (+2)=24. And double all that too.
2d6+24, on a crit becomes 4d6+48.

Flaming/shocking etc, sneak attack, don't get multiplied on a crit.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169723

Curmudgeon
2010-09-26, 04:19 AM
Flaming/shocking etc, sneak attack, don't get multiplied on a crit.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169723
That's a simplification. Nonweapon bonus dice aren't multiplied on criticals, but there are nondice bonuses in those categories. The Fire Heritage feat makes your natural weapon attacks add +1 point of fire damage each hit, and Craven gives your sneak attack a +1 bonus per character level. Both of those bonuses get multiplied on critical hits.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-26, 11:02 AM
That's a simplification. Nonweapon bonus dice aren't multiplied on criticals, but there are nondice bonuses in those categories. The Fire Heritage feat makes your natural weapon attacks add +1 point of fire damage each hit, and Craven gives your sneak attack a +1 bonus per character level. Both of those bonuses get multiplied on critical hits.

Did you read the link?