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View Full Version : [3.5] Ways for Wizards to cast from banned schools?



Wonton
2010-09-21, 07:31 PM
What are some ways to do it? Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration, and Limited Wish come to mind. What are some other ways?

fortesama
2010-09-21, 07:35 PM
A more feat-intensive way could be to use spell reprieve, item reprive then arcane transfiguration, opening up an entire school for you. of course that eats around 3 feat slots so it may not work for you.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-21, 07:37 PM
High UMD and loads of scrolls/wands?

FMArthur
2010-09-21, 07:39 PM
Mage of the Arcane Order works for sure. Does Rainbow Servant work, for those particular spells that are in Wizard schools and on the Cleric list? I can't be arsed to look up the wording on school specialization.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 07:54 PM
What are some ways to do it? Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration, and Limited Wish come to mind. What are some other ways?

Hey, Mr DM, I hear pathfinder is ever so much more balanced. Want to give that a try?

Eldariel
2010-09-21, 07:58 PM
Lost Empires of Faerun has a feat chain (3 feats) that opens up a banned school.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-21, 07:59 PM
Pick up a level of Sorcerer and use toys...

Jack_Simth
2010-09-21, 08:29 PM
Wow, I just got a creepy deja-vu feeling... like you had just posted this about three posts ago...That did seem to occur. Do note, however, that certain types of connection issues can cause that. Although it does take quite the connection issue for the nine-minute discrepancy, there.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-21, 08:36 PM
Ah, I think I know how it happened. Browser tab recovery, in Chrome. Killed the second post, of course.

I believe Extra Spell(Comp Arcane) is a limited way of doing this.

IIRC, a dragon magazine feat exists for this as well.

Also, there's the fun of the Rainment of Four to regain the use of teleport, magic missile, light, etc if you banned any of those.

Teron
2010-09-21, 08:56 PM
This variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spellVersatility) lets transmuters cast a few spells from barred schools.

Your DM might also let you use eternal wands -- I think RAW says no, but if a bard or warmage can use them to cast spells not on their list, it makes sense for a specialist wizard to do the same. Can't hurt to ask.

dextercorvia
2010-09-21, 09:06 PM
There is also Recaster and Wyrm Wizard. In addition, I believe Arcane Disciple works.

Thurbane
2010-09-21, 09:31 PM
Pick up a level of Sorcerer and use toys...
...or into Ultimate magus. :smallbiggrin:

...P.S. Yeah, something weird happened with this thread - took forever to open in my browser, but all other threads were opening fine. :smalleek:

Wonton
2010-09-22, 01:26 AM
Mage of the Arcane Order works for sure.

Yeah, see, I'd say that's still up to interpretation. If I was DM, I'd shut that down. Hell, I'm PLAYING a MotAO right now, and I don't even want to argue for being able to do that, cause I just don't feel that that's how it should work.


Hey, Mr DM, I hear pathfinder is ever so much more balanced. Want to give that a try?

I thought you were calling me Mr DM for a second. Then I got the joke. I laughed. :smallbiggrin:

Looks like options are pretty limited. I've banned Necromancy, but there's just one Necromancy I really want (non-core), and it doesn't look like there's any way that doesn't involve a specialized build to get that.

olentu
2010-09-22, 01:37 AM
Yeah, see, I'd say that's still up to interpretation. If I was DM, I'd shut that down. Hell, I'm PLAYING a MotAO right now, and I don't even want to argue for being able to do that, cause I just don't feel that that's how it should work.



I thought you were calling me Mr DM for a second. Then I got the joke. I laughed. :smallbiggrin:

Looks like options are pretty limited. I've banned Necromancy, but there's just one Necromancy I really want (non-core), and it doesn't look like there's any way that doesn't involve a specialized build to get that.

I think spell reprieve only takes two ranks in knowledge history.

endoperez
2010-09-22, 01:44 AM
Looks like options are pretty limited. I've banned Necromancy, but there's just one Necromancy I really want (non-core), and it doesn't look like there's any way that doesn't involve a specialized build to get that.

Have you considered having your wizard researching a non-necromantic alternative?

Page 198 of the Dungeon Master's Guide has some spell creation guidelines. There's a bit more to it, but it would basically cost 1,000gp a week and require a number of weeks equal to the spell's level. (forbidden knowledge from the past (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120917)!)


It would be a roleplaying opportunity, too. Your wizard finds the perfect spell, but it is banned from him. He delves into the arcane libraries, studying magic theory, you could talk with the DM about doing a mini-quest for scrolls with extra information, etc.

mucat
2010-09-22, 02:14 AM
Mage of the Arcane Order works for sure.
Like Dr. Wonton, I disagree here. Not with the idea that it might work in a given campaign, but with the "for sure" part. Lots of DMs disallow this, and quite reasonably so.

I'm playing a Mage of the Arcane Order, and would not try to pull opposition-school spells from the Spellpool even if the DM allowed it; it makes the choice to specialize way too painless. (Actually, my MotAO is a generalist, so the issue doesn't arise.)

JBento
2010-09-22, 07:58 AM
I don't get the MotAO part - sure you could GET the spell from the spellpool, but you0d still be unable to cast it, no? :smallconfused:

Of course, the srd says that spell from prohibited schools are not available to you, so it's not beyond possibility that they're not available through any means - the spellpool makes no mention either way, so base rules apply.

Cyrion
2010-09-22, 09:11 AM
The only way I've seen commonly discussed is to multi-class into a class that provides those spells, though I'm sure there are DMs who would say no to that as well- You aren't capable of casting those spells. Full stop.

JBento
2010-09-22, 09:30 AM
The only way I've seen commonly discussed is to multi-class into a class that provides those spells, though I'm sure there are DMs who would say no to that as well- You aren't capable of casting those spells. Full stop.

Except you are - if you're a specialist Wiz/Sor, your Sor side can cast whatever spells he happens to have learned, prohibited school or not - as well as having access to the whole list for purposes of item usage

dextercorvia
2010-09-22, 11:03 AM
Looks like options are pretty limited. I've banned Necromancy, but there's just one Necromancy I really want (non-core), and it doesn't look like there's any way that doesn't involve a specialized build to get that.

Which spell? There may be a relatively painless way.

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 11:07 AM
If you take levels in Loremaster or similar full casting PrC with UMD on the class list, you can fake it hard enough to count. There aren't a lot of full caster PrCs out there with UMD, so you might have to look a bit. Loremaster isn't bad though.

Cyrion
2010-09-22, 12:59 PM
Except you are - if you're a specialist Wiz/Sor, your Sor side can cast whatever spells he happens to have learned, prohibited school or not - as well as having access to the whole list for purposes of item usage


But I've known DMs to make the argument that you don't really compartmentalize your mind like that. Multi-classing is adding another set of skills and abilities into an integrated whole. If there's something in you that means you can't cast the spells, another class won't fix that. If the specialization is just you didn't learn the principles for those schools, that could be corrected through another class.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-22, 01:13 PM
But I've known DMs to make the argument that you don't really compartmentalize your mind like that. Multi-classing is adding another set of skills and abilities into an integrated whole. If there's something in you that means you can't cast the spells, another class won't fix that. If the specialization is just you didn't learn the principles for those schools, that could be corrected through another class.

Well, then those DMs are wrong.

And for applying "realism" to magic, probably deserve to be beaten to death with a wet noodle.

aeauseth
2010-09-22, 01:50 PM
Eternal Wands (MIC) is a straight forward way to cast prohibited spells. I believe someone recommended scrolls, which won't work because those prohibited spells technically are not in your spell list. Normal wands won't work either.

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 01:55 PM
I recommended scrolls, under the stipulation that you use UMD to cast them. UMD works just as good for wizards with banned schools as it does for rogues with no access to magic. When in doubt, fake it!

FMArthur
2010-09-22, 02:01 PM
I recommended scrolls, under the stipulation that you use UMD to cast them. UMD works just as good for wizards with banned schools as it does for rogues with no access to magic. When in doubt, fake it!

Without UMD as a class skill, a wizard is going to be doing this about as well as a fighter and not a rogue. Granted, a Fighter is slightly more likely to have a charisma score of 6 than a wizard's usual 8, but it's not a big difference.

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 02:07 PM
Which is why I suggested taking levels in Loremaster. Its a full casting PrC, so it really loses nothing compared to wizard levels, and just happens to have UMD as a class skill. One of the tricks even gives you ranks in a skill you previously had no ranks in, which you could apply to UMD for free skillz.

Sure, it would come a bit late, but its perfectly legit and has a ton of other uses (such has faking out a Strand of Prayer Beads for the Bead of Karma!).

dextercorvia
2010-09-22, 02:15 PM
Ultimate Magus also has UMD as a class skill, and you can get in with a feat or ACF that isn't too bad anyway. Certainly beats Skill Focus. And, you get the CL bumps while you are at it.

There are at least 3 ways to get a Wiz5 entry into UM.

Thurbane
2010-09-22, 05:25 PM
Without UMD as a class skill, a wizard is going to be doing this about as well as a fighter and not a rogue. Granted, a Fighter is slightly more likely to have a charisma score of 6 than a wizard's usual 8, but it's not a big difference.
There's always the Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat - fits thematically for a Wizard, too...

fortesama
2010-09-22, 06:51 PM
You could also try the Flexible Mind feat from Dragon whatever, but you become chaotic and ping detect chaos spells.

FMArthur
2010-09-22, 09:55 PM
Skill Knowledge is another easy answer to getting UMD. I never said it was impossible to get on a wizard, but it's something you have to do a little work for if you really want to be any good at it.

Darrin
2010-09-22, 10:54 PM
IIRC, a dragon magazine feat exists for this as well.


Diversified Casting, Dragon #325. Allows you to cast up to three spells from a banned school.

Wonton
2010-09-23, 12:07 AM
Diversified Casting, Dragon #325. Allows you to cast up to three spells from a banned school.

So, exactly three times better than Spell Reprieve. Oh, third-party sources... :smallannoyed:


Which spell? There may be a relatively painless way.

It's Burning Blood. My Conjurer is currently lacking in single-target debuffs, and this is maybe the best single target debuff for its level (though Enervation is pretty damn good too, and... also Necromancy). And to those who will inevitably argue that there's better spells, Burning Blood is my favourite, so you can't win that. :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 12:40 AM
Stun Ray is arguably one of the best single target debuffs. Its also Conjouration, and falls into my favorite classification of spells:

Damned if you save, double damned if you don't!

Unfortunately, its also level 7, but still...KER-POW!!!!!!!!!

Wonton
2010-09-23, 01:41 AM
Stun Ray is arguably one of the best single target debuffs. Its also Conjouration, and falls into my favorite classification of spells:

Damned if you save, double damned if you don't!

Unfortunately, its also level 7, but still...KER-POW!!!!!!!!!

7's definitely too high (We're only level 8). However, there's also Unluck... doesn't take away from the point at hand though.

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 02:07 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...Unluck is a TERRIBLE spell.

You spend your action. Your foe gets a save. IF they fail that save, they now have to roll two saves vs every following spell. Yea, they also have to roll twice on things like attack rolls, and at low levels, thats still decent, but at high levels when a lot of things only miss on a 1, 2 chances to roll a 1 isn't really that favorable. So, what is your plan? Cast ANOTHER spell on the bugger, now that his saves are penalized, and hope that he fails with one of his two rolls. Except wait...he already failed a save one round ago. If you had cast the 2nd spell first, you wouldn't even need the Unluck...

Constrast with Slow or even Glitterdust, one level lower. Both spells do a VERY good job of taking a fow out of the fight. Glitterdust gives you whole party Improved Invisibility, and you don't have to be very creative in targetting to just nick one foe unless your allies are already flanking it. Slow is like a single target spell, except with Chain Spell already applied to it, except without the pesky -4 save DC Chain Spell normally applies. So, in other words, badass *CL. You'll prevent a LOT more damage to your party by restricting a Dire Bear's full attack to a single swipe than making it roll all of it's attack rolls twice, assuming either spell lands.

Really, in nearly all cases, you'd be better off just prepping 2 Slows, and casting them successively. If the first succeeds, follow up with a Prestidigitation to make some tea, since your job is mostly done. If the first fails, cast the 2nd...you are no worse off than you would by trying to hit with Unluck.

Unluck is a GREAT concept, I really like it, but it just fails in execution. First and foremost, its a Divination spell, which means you almost NEVER have a Spell Focus for it, since there are all of 3 Divinations that even allow saves. You'll probably have Spell Focus Conjouration, Transmutation, or Necromancy, rather than Divination. Secondly, it takes an action AND still allows a save. This you can fix easily. Take the save away, or make it a swift action. As a swift action, it turns into a kinda Assay Spell Resistance except for saving throws. You cast it immediately prior to your big boom spell, and you can get both off in the same round without blowing a 7th level slot to Quicken it. The other is to just remove the save. It would be worth an action for that, the same way Curse of Impending Blades or Ray of Enfeeblement is worth an action. Its a decent penalty, it works on just about anything, and most importantly, its irresistable which REALLY allows you to set up 1-2 combos. Its decently low level that you can afford to keep one or two at mid-high levels, and after casting it, you and another caster pepper the target with SoDs until it fails one.

Yea...as written, Unluck is TERRIBLE. Cast Slow instead. It works on anything that Unluck would work on.