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View Full Version : Help! We're Being Attacked By a Great Wyrm Ur-Priest.



Ormur
2010-09-21, 09:53 PM
In tabletop a campaign run by a local forumite my wizard character and my friend's druid character are fighting a gargantuan omnicidal black dragon that knows 9th level spells (and a few epic level ones) but I surmise he's an ur-pries since his caster level isn't even 20th and it fits thematically.

To make a long story short we barely escaped for the second or third time after he killed our highest level ally. Just before we left he warned us he'd find us tomorrow and I'm sure he intends to honour that promise. After the death of our ally our refuge hitherto might be vulnerable.

So basically we need every help we can get to survive. What gives us a sporting chance is that we just levelled up to 15th level from the battle so we now have access to 8th level spells.

The druid can of course redo his spell selection completely. He's been a bit of a blaster but he generally walks around with resistance superior and has augment summoning, full armour, a HD appropriate giant eagle and some standard fare. He's the damage dealer and what serves as a tank.

I'm a bit more restricted since I have to pick two 8th level spells and a legacy of beginners optimization (I've played him from level one) and little down time. So yes he's an evoker. I just entered Archmage and took master of shaping but I haven't picked a second ability. I also have two feats and skill points yet to pick. Here's a more detailed sheet (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=41292), along with spells known. There is a possibility for some modest retraining.

What we know of the dragon is that he's a gargantuan (or whatever the next biggest size category is) black one with 9th level cleric spells and at least 6th level sorc/wiz spells. The former probably from ur-pries but the latter presumably from age category. He also had an epic blast/breath weapon spell and some epic ritual but his epic spell casting hasn't featured prominently. He has cast antimagic field, implosion, divine power and numerous other buffs. Last battle he was immune to acid, fire and electricity but not sonic. He has also appeared as a human and as a dragon a size category larger while flying at least 200 ft. per round. Due to unknown feats and classes his abilities aren't restricted to those of black dragons but DR, AC, SR and such seems to be in line with what's to be expected. He might also possibly gate in allies, perhaps a Balor.

What spells can we pick and what strategies can we use? We have very limited time, basically the night, which precludes much crafting and for me learning new spells from scrolls. There is a chance of gathering cleric, druid and possibly wizard allies up to our level and buying some scrolls and magic items. Stinky cheese is either not going to be permitted or would render us susceptible to a DM that's better at abusing it than us. However this is now a tier one game, so a chance for some time critical PO.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 10:00 PM
Maximized Shivering Touch.

ffone
2010-09-21, 10:06 PM
Maximized Shivering Touch.

...the spell that makes it easier to slay dragons as they age! (Since their touch AC gets worse and their Dex stays the same!)

Heehee, the fact that it's a three word reply to a long post, but yet apt, says a lot about the spell's brokenness.

(I'm not suggesting the OP refrain from it though, far from it - sounds like the DM's BBEG is pretty twinked out!)

Nohwl
2010-09-21, 10:10 PM
don't forget reach spell on that shivering touch, so you can do it from a distance.

Ranos
2010-09-21, 10:10 PM
What you need at this point is info. We can't give you any general weaknesses or strategies, because he's an epic fullcaster and can cover for any of them. Now, it seems this dragon isn't the most optimized you could get (or he would have just gone back in time and killed your mothers or something). But you're still gonna need to know every detail of the dragon's build before you can even start to formulate a plan.

Bust out the divinations.

Ormur
2010-09-21, 10:21 PM
Ah, the much dreaded dragon killer. Yeah, I'll ask but somehow I think it might not exist so a backup plan would be nice (I might even have done so already). Even if it would work the DM is likely to have a contingency plan against such an obvious killer and the dragon's stat array might not be standard.

Trying to get more info is a good idea and I suspect he's deliberately not so optimized because then we just wouldn't have a chance. However I don't know what divinations would let us know the buffs he puts up right before he flies away, or gates in from his demiplane of acid, on his way to kill us. That's probably the most relevant piece of info.

Edit: Sorry, no shivering touch. I banned necromancy and illusions. Should have mentioned that. I'll try to find a scroll but that's going to be iffy.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 10:41 PM
Edit: Sorry, no shivering touch. I banned necromancy and illusions. Should have mentioned that. I'll try to find a scroll but that's going to be iffy.
You have two feat slots. ShivTouch is a low level spell. Take Leadership, get a cohort.

Similarly with Leadership, a stack of high-cha cohorts, all with Leadership themselves, until it's too low a level to take the feat. All of them and the followers, are Sorcerors, casting Magic Missile all at the same time.

Nohwl
2010-09-21, 10:44 PM
pick limited wish as a spell and then use it for shivering touch?

Mando Knight
2010-09-21, 10:53 PM
Similarly with Leadership, a stack of high-cha cohorts, all with Leadership themselves, until it's too low a level to take the feat. All of them and the followers, are Sorcerors, casting Magic Missile all at the same time.

You realize that any cheese you bring to bear against the DM is fair game for him to use on you, right? Fractal Leadership only means that he'll find ways to knock out low-HD allies without much bother (Cloudkill, Frightful Presence, etc.) or have his villain carry Leadership himself (Oh, shoot. That's a Great Wyrm, right? 17th level cohort, and over 150 minions). That, and they're NPCs. Oops.

Esser-Z
2010-09-21, 10:59 PM
You realize that any cheese you bring to bear against the DM is fair game for him to use on you, right? Fractal Leadership only means that he'll find ways to knock out low-HD allies without much bother (Cloudkill, Frightful Presence, etc.) or have his villain carry Leadership himself (Oh, shoot. That's a Great Wyrm, right? 17th level cohort, and over 150 minions). That, and they're NPCs. Oops.

He's already got a boss of insane power level!

Mando Knight
2010-09-21, 11:00 PM
He's already got a boss of insane power level!

Which means you don't want to tempt him by trying to out-cheese him. In the game of "Who can be the cheesiest?" the DM always wins.

Glimbur
2010-09-21, 11:21 PM
Similarly with Leadership, a stack of high-cha cohorts, all with Leadership themselves, until it's too low a level to take the feat. All of them and the followers, are Sorcerors, casting Magic Missile all at the same time.

Dragons have SR. Also a breath weapon AoE attack. Sorcerer mob is not a particularly effective strategy against them.

Ormur
2010-09-21, 11:33 PM
Yeah, I really don't think I'll have the time to recruit an exponentially increasing number of cohorts and followers within the timeframe I have, let alone making sure they are all sorcerers with shivering touch and magic missile. Not to mentioned that they'd all be killed on the first round, which is quite a bit to weigh down on the character's conscience.

Limited Wish is more reasonable but I wonder if it's worth the investment.

The Dragon probably only has his Balor lieutenant left, we've pretty much killed all the other high level henchmen. He's is also limited in that he can't teleport with his magic resistant artifact. He either travels by gate or flying.

Recruiting already established NPC's as allies is a much better bet. We'll probably be staying in a palace in the world's biggest city. I imagine he'll attack us there.

gdiddy
2010-09-21, 11:43 PM
Repeat Empowered Whirlwind of Teeth?
:smallconfused:

Douglas
2010-09-22, 12:17 AM
If the DM is playing this dragon as intelligently as it seems, it probably has Scintillating Scales so touch spells aren't so easy after all. You can try, but don't be too surprised if it misses.

Dracons
2010-09-22, 12:25 AM
Hey don't worry. I'm betting this is some sort of /story/ battle. Where you'll likely get your ass beaten, and the dragon make you do a new quest to kill an enemy of his, who'd free you from your curse and train you some to make you stronger.

Maybe try to get into the room of time and spirit, and get some training in that. Even a 12 hours can give you six months of training.

Ormur
2010-09-22, 12:36 AM
The dragon aims to destory the whole plane and he's the most powerful mortal in the whole of existence. He can't really be bargained with. The only alternative to standing our ground is joining him. It is however possible that he intends to capture us since we have valuable information about how to destroy the plane. Defeat might not mean the end of the campaign but the DM has warned us that we might no end up victorious. Complete and utter defeat is a very real possibility.

The third option is to flee the plane, look for level appropriate encounters so we can gain 9th level spells and come back with a better chance.

gdiddy
2010-09-22, 12:40 AM
1: Go to Sigil.
2: Tell enough people that the Dragon worships the Lady that it becomes true.
3: ...
4: PROFIT!

Ernir
2010-09-26, 03:47 PM
All I can promise you is that this critter does, indeed, have stats. Which means it isn't indestructible.

-The DM.

LordShotGun
2010-09-26, 04:02 PM
If it has stats...We can kill it.

Dralnu
2010-09-26, 04:18 PM
All I can promise you is that this critter does, indeed, have stats. Which means it isn't indestructible.

-The DM.

If your DM is reading your topics, I think it's safe to say that any answer you get here can easily be countered. You'll probably have to use your own brain for this one.

Also, if you can't find a way to auto-win with pure mechanics, you can try thinking outside the box. This is DnD after all. We have more options than a videogame. You can possibly use the dragon's desires against him, perhaps through deceit. Maybe lead him into a trap. Maybe try and get a higher power to deal with him. Cool DMs often roll with original and well thought-out plans.

Eldariel
2010-09-26, 05:28 PM
Standard high-level combat tricks; heavy Dispels, Disjunctions (Scrolls; Plane Shift to some planar metropolis (aka. Sigil) and buy as necessary), Time Stop > various Delayed & area-morphing spells, heavy use of Anti-Magic Fields & company and an array of either direct damage or finisher spells of various kinds. (Shivering Touch is a fair option; if you can dispel its protections and items, and Assay+True Casting its Resistance, you may be able to land it - others are certainly fair too). It's...a tough encounter but seems like your party has the means to fight it with some chance of success.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-26, 07:39 PM
Solid fog while he's flying past. Forces him out of the air, and if he's nice and old, he'll crash cuz he can't maintain his forward speed.

Take the feat Collegiate wizard. Congrats, you just learned 4 spells at level 15, rather than 2.

What's your contingency spell set to do?

true_shinken
2010-09-26, 07:52 PM
Sell your soul. With two extra feats, adding to the two you already have, you can probably craft the Locate City bomb.

Ormur
2010-09-26, 07:54 PM
My present contingency is "in case of a melee attack, put up Resilient Sphere around me". I can now change it to a Teleport or another 5th level spell but that means casting Contingency again.

I trust Ernir not to metagame to specifically tailor an already very high CR encounter to countering everything we could do. If that were the case we could just give up now.

We might get some advanced warning by clever placement, perhaps fighting where he couldn't stay in his dragon form. We'd have loads of prebuffs and the Druid could summon a few elementals beforehand. Opening the battle we'd use a targeted Dispel Magic which is quite effective since he has a relatively low caster level and hope we get rid of some of his immunities. One trick I could use is getting arcane reach and use it for Otto's Irresistible Dance, that could buy us a few rounds. I'd have a few slots of Assay Spell Resistance and if we failed to dispel his scintillating scales I'd be prepared with a quickened True Strike.

My biggest problem within the timeframe is how many of my spells are obviously useless. He has shown an immunity to electricity which neutralizes my Stun Ray, he can fly which means Reverse Gravity is neigh useless, his strenght modifier can easily overcome Bigby's Foreceful Hand and Black Tentacles and his high fort save makes Disintegrate and Cloudkill less useful. Damage spells in general are susceptible to his energy resistances and he's a frickin dragon so I'd need unacceptably many rounds to bring him down with them.

I think the best bet is Mind Blank, Plane Shift, loads of scrolls and hoping that buys us enough time for me to learn them and possibly a few levels worth of XP from more level appropriate encounters.

Ernir
2010-09-26, 08:18 PM
If your DM is reading your topics, I think it's safe to say that any answer you get here can easily be countered.

If anyone has something extraordinarily clever to say, but are afraid it would be ruined because I read the forums, there's always Ormur's inbox. :smalltongue:

But mostly, there's this:
I trust Ernir not to metagame to specifically tailor an already very high CR encounter to countering everything we could do. If that were the case we could just give up now.

I'm obviously not having him prepare for things he couldn't know of using the means available to him. I have put rather too much time and love into this campaign to end it with "... aaaaaand the BBEG was waiting for you in your bathtub. Yes, he found out where you are, and no, none of your five different anti-divinations were effective. Yes, he's immune to the spell you cast, so I'm not going to bother with the save. He full attacks. You die and I win!" :smallyuk:

As long as you don't tell one of his lackeys everything you know (again) and forget to put on your anti-scrying tinfoil hats, of course.


Sell your soul.
A friendly Glabrezu offered them a deal like that not long ago, actually.

They refused. :smallfrown:

true_shinken
2010-09-26, 08:24 PM
Opening the battle we'd use a targeted Dispel Magic which is quite effective since he has a relatively low caster level and hope we get rid of some of his immunities.
Better yet: use Disjunction. Surefire.


he can fly which means Reverse Gravity is neigh useless
Not at all. As a big dragon, you can bet he flies poorly. This would force him to at the very leat keep spending a move action to close with you. If you surround him with Solid Fog and similar stuff, you might even drop him off the air.

Damage spells in general are susceptible to his energy resistances and he's a frickin dragon so I'd need unacceptably many rounds to bring him down with them.
Force Orb should go around his immunities. So does Wings of Flurry (it's even karmic justice, since it's a draconic spell).


I think the best bet is Mind Blank, Plane Shift, loads of scrolls and hoping that buys us enough time for me to learn them and possibly a few levels worth of XP from more level appropriate encounters.
No, that's anti-climatic. Just kill the sucker.

You have a full day. I'd say, buy appropriate magical items, perhaps find a trapped place to wait for him, get some allies (say, the church of Heirouneous might want to put that sucker down) and go boom on him.
Heck, if you happen to get a ubercharger ally, a pair of dispels and/or disjunctions pretty much guarantees this guy will die.

Exthalion
2010-09-26, 08:38 PM
Anti-Osmium Bomb or, if you can't justify antimatter,

Liquid metallic hydrogen bomb. Most of the boom for less knowledge. You just Major creation a chunk of the stuff and it explodes with more force then any nuclear weapon yet built.

jiriku
2010-09-26, 08:40 PM
I would agree that, like the Beatles, you should attempt to get by with a little help from your friends.

For the druid: bite of the werebear + girallon's blessing + dire lion wildshape + animal growth will take the druid up to the size, strength, grapple bonus, number of attacks, and potential damage output necessary to go toe-to-toe with him. Of those buffs, only bite of the werebear has a short duration.

I would also suggest fighting in an environment that favors you. For example, if his flight worries you, retreat to a conveniently located cave complex or plane shift to the elemental plane of earth. If it's his great speed and ability to engage from long range that has you bothered, a deep sea trench or the elemental plane of water will limit both speed and visibility.

Forewarned is forearmed: a well-worded contact other plane should allow you to determine the exact hour of his arrival, perhaps even down to the minute if you're clever, so you can arrange to be pre-buffed. However, don't neglect to prepare for the event that he may withdraw in the face of a heavily buffed defense, then hit you again half an hour later.

Attend to your defenses. There's no good reason not to have mass resist energy up for all five energy types at your level, plus spell turning prepared for yourself if you can manage it. Resilient sphere in response to a melee attack sounds risky -- you could easily lose a round getting yourself out of the sphere, during which time you can't contribute to the fight. A contingent dimension door or teleport is usually more flexible, if less of a guarantee of safety.

Dracons
2010-09-26, 08:51 PM
Get everyone in the party a bunch of cloaks of displacment. 50 percent miss chance hurts the physical asspect of them,.

true_shinken
2010-09-26, 08:54 PM
Get everyone in the party a bunch of cloaks of displacment. 50 percent miss chance hurts the physical asspect of them,.

The physical aspect of an epic spellcaster? Oh, I see...

Ormur
2010-09-26, 09:05 PM
It could be useful, he's awfully fond of beating things until they fall apart since he's a dragon too.

Solid fog is interesting. I hadn't though about manoeuvrability when taking his flight into account.

Allies might be awailable. I'll see the heads of the mage guild early next day and they're capable of casting 7th and 8th level spell. I doubt they'd be willing to stand ground with us but they might be persuaded to cast some long term prebuffs or loan us items. Druids and Clerics could be persuaded to fight with us and buff us.

So any more suggestion of prebuffs like Jiriku's would be appreciated. I'm not very familiar with divine casters.

Dracons
2010-09-26, 10:05 PM
The physical aspect of an epic spellcaster? Oh, I see...

Couple of antimagic zones will take care of the magic.

And besides: As OOTS have proven, once a magic user is out of spells, even an epic caster? In the end they are just a X race, while in the end, a dragon is still a dragon.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-26, 11:50 PM
Why not a quick upgrade of your quarterstaff?
Make it a +1 smoking (lord of darkness) spellblade(PGtF?). That'll cost about 10k.
Smoking gives some flat miss chances, which should help against anything he targets you with.
Spellblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109): Put the wyrms favorite targeted spell on the spellblade. Your quarterstaff will absorb the spell, next round you send it right back to him. You've fought him several times, so you should have an idea what his favorite offensive spells are, or at least his standard opening action (Hopefully it's not "Charge and eat them whole.")

I still say collegiate wizard for your 15th level feat. It'll give you 4 spells learned instead of 2.

Dracons
2010-09-27, 12:05 AM
Collegiate Wizard is impossible for him to choose, unless the DM allows rebuilding. The ginat Secial: You can take this feat ONLY as a 1st level CHARACTER kinda makes it moot at his level.

Runestar
2010-09-27, 06:16 AM
Is no one pointing out that an ur-priest dragon is actually pretty anemic for the cr? :smalltongue:

Myth
2010-09-27, 07:42 AM
Greater Anticipate Teleportation. It has 24 hr duration which is easily extended via Rod. He does arrive via Teleport or Gate right? Just make sure you are sitting in the middle of a room or cavern the adequate size for the range of your spell, with nothing to block the emanation, but with room for the Dragon to fit in.

In the prep rounds pull out your big toys. Have the Druid stand next to where he will appear, with an AMF on and Wild Shaped in to something robust. You possibly can't outgrapple him but having an Epic caster try to grapple your bear guy is actually good. Ready an action to run towards the Dragon the moment he pops in.

In the mean time you bust out that scroll of Disjunction, removing his Ray Deflection or whatever else he might have. You banned dragon rape Necromancy but honestly, you have Archmage for Arcane Reach and you can replicate the spell via Limited Wish. Apply a rod of Metamagic Empower and hit him. That's the easiest way to kill him i can think of. You can also apply various other nasty debuffing rays like, Ray of Exaustion, prior to Shivering Touch.

You can also go for Sonic Orbs since you know he isn't immune to sound.

Waiting around in a big cave also allows for you to cast Transmute Rock to Mud on the ceiling the moment he pops in. bury him in mud, while your Druid is in a form that allows burrowing. Then cast Transmute Mud to Rock.

Since he is still in an AMF he can't Teleport out.

Psyx
2010-09-27, 08:03 AM
Which means you don't want to tempt him by trying to out-cheese him. In the game of "Who can be the cheesiest?" the DM always wins.

Although by asking for help on the net, it's now become a case of T3H INTERNETZ versus GM. This doesn't bode well. Maybe there'll be a post from the GM on here next week...

herrhauptmann
2010-09-27, 08:56 AM
Collegiate is first level only? Crap. Never noticed... Sorry forget that, but the rest is still valid

true_shinken
2010-09-27, 09:04 AM
Although by asking for help on the net, it's now become a case of T3H INTERNETZ versus GM. This doesn't bode well. Maybe there'll be a post from the GM on here next week...

The DM is already posting in this thread.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 09:45 AM
Planar Ally and scrolls of Gate are your friends. Getting a bunch of high level spellcasters (Planetar from Planar Ally, Solar from Gate scrolls) can be very helpful. It'd probably be a good idea to lock him in with you by preventing teleport/planar travel to get away if you start knocking him down.

Ormur
2010-09-27, 01:29 PM
I don't think he'll use teleport, just flying or gate. He's carrying an artifact immune to magic so he can't take it with him by teleport or plane shift, only by physically traveling and/or opening a gateway, like gate.

Disjunction is probably not available as a scroll. We witnessed it cast at the Dragon by, our now dead ally, the king and the DM hinted that it was unique to him, he even called it "King's name" Disjunction. In fact 9th level spells in general are probably very hard to get except by gaining levels considering the lack of high level spell casters in the setting. The ones we know about are either missing, dead or trying to kill us (or both). The owner of the magic mart is of an unknown high level, probably an artificer so other 9th level scrolls might conceivably be available.

Dracons
2010-09-27, 02:03 PM
I stress not to worry.

The overwhelming power of the dragon shows how outmatched you are. So it's a story battle, as in your meant to be /defeated/. Perhaps you'll be saved by a uber NPC that can teleport you to safetly so that you can train and get stronger under his teachings.


Or there is a small chance your DM is just a prick, and loves to kill PC's with undefeatable villains. In which case, it's not your fault, your DM is just a **** that doesn't deserve the mantle of DM.

KingoftheTrees
2010-09-27, 03:07 PM
You could always take Fell Drain as a feat.... Couple that with an Orb of Force and it gets one negative level. ;)
Also does anyone not think that it's counter-productive for a dragon to cast Antimagic Field? Wouldn't that negate its spells, spell resistance, and damage reduction?

Tyrmatt
2010-09-27, 03:16 PM
Isn't it possible to use Dispel Magic to counter-spell his spells? If what you suspect is true and the Dragon's caster level is actually lower than it should be, you have a decent chance of being able to combat the truly vicious spells. Between you and the Druid you have a decent repetoire of spells to counter him with, plus 3 slots to use on Greater Dispel Magic and a feat slot to burn on Improved Counterspell. Hardly optimal but for this situation, it might just be necessary.

Scrolls of Dispel Magic must be pretty easy to come by from the Adventure Mart guy as they're only level 4 at most. And preparing a few Greater Dispel Magics wouldn't hurt either.

jiriku
2010-09-27, 03:22 PM
The transmute rock to mud + transmute mud to rock combo is popular for dragon-slaying. It's not going to kill the dragon by itself, but it can lock him down for a bit while you beat on him. If he's carrying a device that can't be teleported and he's unwilling to leave it behind, that means he's prevented from using tactical teleportation, so he shouldn't be able to escape from it except through brute strength (which, alas, he has). In fact, asking if he intends to have that device with him would be a very useful thing to cover during your divinations, as it will allow you to determine in advance whether he'll have a major tactical weakness (inability to teleport).

In fact, why not abuse the hell out of that? Hem him in with wall of force (arcane) and wall of thorns (druidic) again and again. Defend yourself in an area that's so low or so full of obstacles that he can't reliably fly around your walls, and force him to spend all of his time bashing through barriers instead of killing you. Tag him with a moon bolt or two (Druid 4, SpC) to drain his strength and make it more difficult for him to bash through barriers. While he's trying to come to grips with you, you can be wailing on him and then ducking back behind cover.

Again, spell turning and mass spell resistance (if you can get it from an allied cleric) will be useful buffs on your part. Hero's feast and mass death ward (again, from an allied cleric) are also solid buffs, as they will grant immunity to poison, disease, energy drain, and death effects, considerably narrowing the types of threats you need to worry about in combat. If you have it, I'm VERY fond of greater arcane sight as a wizard buff, as it allows you to instantly know all of the dragon's buff spells on sight, so you can choose to hit him with whatever he's not immune to. I skipped over it at first because it's such a basic buff for my group, but if you're not in the habit, get airborne via fly, overland flight, air walk, or whatever. With your superior maneuverability, you can potentially outmaneuver the dragon in the air, and if you can force him to engage you while moving, you prevent him from using a full attack.