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LansXero
2010-09-21, 10:24 PM
Hello everyone;

Im (probably) about to join a new group; their adventure is already half-way, and they are all level 5. The party consists of a dwarven fighter (defensively focused), a dwarven cleric (player is new and the other dwarf's girlfriend, so she plays like a healbot / turnbot for everyone most of the time, which I dont like, frankly), an elven wizard (not sure the school spec; seems blaster-ish, rules lawyer but also a cheater, dislike him the most), a human rogue (roleplayer, not worried one bit about contributing in combat or optimizing) and a fighter/ranger going into Bow Order PRC.

The DM is pretty bad, but Ive only ever DM'ed since I started playing RPGs so ANY chance to play is a gods-send. I point this out because I want to make a very simple, very straight-forward, no cheese kind of character. We already had an impasse where he turned down several of my character ideas, in order:

- A warblade is way overpowered and ToB is a book only for arena-like mindless combat. He was happy when he thought maneuvers where an spellcaster's splatbook, but giving those to melee? WAY TOO MUCH. O. K.
- A Binder is way overpowered. Changing "class" every day would obsolete everyone and make me a jerk. Also, no dark or evil themes in his "world". O. K.
- Dragonfire Adept is way overpowered. Spamming AoE shouldn't be possible, and Im a cheating powergamer for wanting that. O. K.
- Warlock is a no go either, even though it IS in one of his approved books. No evil clause and all that.
- Orc barbarian was banned too, not on the basis of barbarian but on the basis of Orc. +4 to A SINGLE STAT?!! INCONCEIVABLE (literal quote).


ANYWAYS, to cut things short, allowed books are Core + Complete Adventurer / Arcane / Divine. Maybe something else on a case-by-case basis, but as you can see its not a very open minded DM. I was thinking either a tripping human fighter 2 / something else (pure fighter would bore me to tears) or something to help relieve the cleric from healbot duty and let her play. Or something that could out-blast the blaster wizard so I can laugh at him. Im sure even with so little material to work with, if anyone can come up with something interesting, its you guys!. It would be a lot better if it was good out-of-the-box, although I dont mind waiting a couple of levels for it to shine; I'd be starting at level 5 unless Im mistaken.

sciencepanda
2010-09-21, 10:27 PM
What if you have a Warlock, but Chaotic Good, and plot-wise gaining it's powers from a fey-based source?

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-21, 10:27 PM
Level 5?

Go druid. Halfling druid. I'd say Strongheart halfling, but that might be nixed.

Middle aged if you want the wis boost.

Be small, quiet, humble unassuming.

Then cast Entangle. Then Plant Growth. Call Lightning.

Then turn into a bear. A bear they can't run from, as their move speed is 0. A bear that can call lightning from a cloudless sky.

LansXero
2010-09-21, 10:30 PM
Level 5?

Go druid. Halfling druid. I'd say Strongheart halfling, but that might be nixed.

Middle aged if you want the wis boost.

Be small, quiet, humble unassuming.

Then cast Entangle. Then Plant Growth. Call Lightning.

Then turn into a bear. A bear they can't run from, as their move speed is 0. A bear that can call lightning from a cloudless sky.

That is a very good idea, except:
- There is already a druid, who is a new player (last session was his first, I forgot to mention him because he is almost a hireling for the wizard).
- The DM is very "realist": when I told the druid to stop doing 1d6 damage with his bow and use entangle instead, the DM said there were no plants to entangle things with inside the dungeon. Or near the swamp. Or in the graveyard. Im pretty sure I couldnt call lightning from a cloudless sky exactly for those reasons :(

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-21, 10:32 PM
Call Lightning Explicitly works even if there are no storm conditions.

If no druid...hmm...

You seem to favor the character classes without a limit on their utility. This suggests to me, you're used to DMs that run the PCs to the ground, and keeps throwing encounters.


Maybe throw a wrench into it all, and play a Bard? The roleplayer might love you for it, you can be the face, and control a lot of situations. If you want to go combat later, you can pick up Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows, or go with the Snowflake Wardance setup.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-21, 10:49 PM
Warlock doesn't have to be 'evil'. It is 'chaotic OR evil'. You can be Chaotic Good and a Warlock with a Fay heritage background... point this out to GM?

Failing that, you have the following options:

1) Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Specialize in battlefield control and save or loose effects. Shut everything down, then smile serenely when they brag about how many kills they get. Sevenfold veil just so you won't have to worry about personal safety.

2) Gatling Tripper. Spiked Chain + Improved Trip. See if you can get some kind of size increase. May have to dip Sorcerer for Enlarge Person.

3) Druid/Master of Many Forms. Which just happens to be in CAdv...

4) Bard/Virtuoso. Min/max your Inspire Courage. Look up what Masterwork Instruments can do (Complete Adventurer as well), and which ones give a bonus on it. Give everyone a +5 to hit and damage.

LansXero
2010-09-21, 11:00 PM
If you want to go combat later, you can pick up Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows, or go with the Snowflake Wardance setup.

Away from books atm, so where are those from and what do they do? :smallredface:

Bard seems interesting, can they be good in combat too or just support?
And if I were to make a tripper, which feats are a must to make it work? Thanks for the help so far :D

Also, I do know a warlock doesn`t have to be evil, but that's crappy holier-than-thou DMs for you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-21, 11:04 PM
Away from books atm, so where are those from and what do they do? :smallredface:

Bard seems interesting, can they be good in combat too or just support?
And if I were to make a tripper, which feats are a must to make it work? Thanks for the help so far :D

Also, I do know a warlock doesn`t have to be evil, but that's crappy holier-than-thou DMs for you.

Improved Trip and Exotic Weapon Proficency: Spiked Chain are both very handy for a tripper build. Combat Reflexes help if you want to use this defensively more than once a round. Remember, he provokes by moving, then you use the AoO to trip (an attack action), then get a free attack on the now prone target, who can't keep moving because he's prone.

Bards can be pretty good in combat. ToB is banned, fine. They still have the same BAB as a Rogue, and you can run one as a tripper as well as a buffer.

You need to get a Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium). It increases Inspire Courage. There's also a spell in the Spell Compendium called Inspirational Boost (1st level Bard spell) which increases it further by +1.

Bards can also use a Whip, which can be used to trip anyone within 15', although you provoke an AoO if you use it while someone is in melee with you.

Is Psionics available? A one-level dip in Psionic Warrior gives you Expansion, and then you go into pyrokeneticist. Flame Lash does Whip stuff better. It's all touch attacks, does better damage, threatens, and in general, is a hell of a lot of fun to play with

Thurbane
2010-09-21, 11:35 PM
For the record, creating a "revenge" character to point out how classes on the approved list can still be broken is rarely a good idea. It usually just leads to ill feelings within the group.

A much better idea is to try and talk rationally with the DM, and try to convince him that some of the classes that are on his banned list really aren't overpowered.

Failing that, take something from the approved list, but just play it to have fun, not neccessarily to twink it out to teach the DM a lesson.

My 2 cents anyway - I've seen a lot of these kind of threads, and the number of "OMG, just play a cheesed out Wizard or Druid and show him how broken they can be!". type comments always scares/disappoints me...

snoopy13a
2010-09-21, 11:41 PM
The party doesn't seem very optimized so it might be bad form to produce an extremely effective character.

Also, they have:
A fighter
A cleric
A wizard
A druid
A rogue
A bow-using fighter/ranger

So, that gives you license to try something a little different and fun. One possible niche is a party face so a bard or high charisma rogue (especially if your party rogue is low on the social skills) or even paladin might be a good choice. Or perhaps a sorceror.

A trip-fighting Bard is a neat concept (especially with a whip) but it could be spreading your ability scores fairly thin as one would need relatively high Str, Dex, Cha, and an Int of 13.

I'm going to suggest a braggart (high Bluff skill) Halfling sorceror simply because it might be fun to tweak the wizard's player nose a little :smallsmile: .

LansXero
2010-09-21, 11:47 PM
For the record, creating a "revenge" character to point out how classes on the approved list can still be broken is rarely a good idea. It usually just leads to ill feelings within the group.

A much better idea is to try and talk rationally with the DM, and try to convince him that some of the classes that are on his banned list really aren't overpowered.

Failing that, take something from the approved list, but just play it to have fun, not neccessarily to twink it out to teach the DM a lesson.

My 2 cents anyway - I've seen a lot of these kind of threads, and the number of "OMG, just play a cheesed out Wizard or Druid and show him how broken they can be!". type comments always scares/disappoints me...

Far from it; if anything is "revenge-driven" is only trying to take the wizard-player down a notch; he is by far the most experienced one on the table (even more so than the DM it seems) but he both cheats (maximized empowered fireball at lvl 5 with almost core-only?) and tries to dictate what everyone at the table HAS to do (like rounding things up so he can blast them with the previously mentioned fireball).

Aside from that, the party might seem like it has all its bases covered, but its far from that. The blaster wizard only blasts, and when that fails he uses a light crossbow :S. The "tanking" fighter only tanks by means of having a high AC; their feat choices are pretty bad (toughness x2 and great fortitude iirc), etc. I was leaning more towards a control / utility character to make things easier for THEM, as well as to deal with DM shenanigans of artificially prolonging encounters by having more and more monsters appear.

A Paladin might be a good idea too, since its an undead heavy campaign. How is a battle-cleric at level 5? viable? Would take some healbot-duties from the newbie cleric, and show her what the class can do. Would that be a good idea?

StreetPizza
2010-09-21, 11:58 PM
Given how (seemingly) inexperienced some of the players are and how low-tier and unoptimized some of their characters are, I think the DM is a little ham-handed in outright banning some classes. Really, there are better ways to handle this kind of thing and those ways often don't end up irritating the players, but still, his intent is good: make sure everyone has fun, 'cause D&D should always be about fun.

That being said, helping the Dwarf Cleric might be a good idea, seeing as how she probably won't have any fun if all she does is heal all day.

Petrocorus
2010-09-22, 12:42 AM
You can try the Bardadin:
Bard 2 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

BAB +16 CL 18 Fort +9 / Ref +10 / Will +20 Skill points 102

You need Extra music for qualifying for Lyric Thaumaturge and Combat casting for Abj. Champ. You can be a buffer, a bit of a gish, the party face (this party seem not to have one) which is good for role-playing.

You can also try
Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumatuge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Unseen Seer 8

BAB +14 CL 20 Fort +7 / Ref +11 / Will +18 Skill points 126

Less able to fight, but with full casting. And you don't need extra music.

Both this build should be workable at lvl 5 and none should outshine the other PC. Not the wiz or the cleric at least.

LansXero
2010-09-22, 01:15 AM
Wow a full build is great, thank you. Im not sure how well a Paladin of Freedom will fit into the DM's rather narrowminded view of the classes, but its worth a shot. Im really considering a bard now, lets see:

Could I, using the books mentioned in the OP, make a tripper Orc bard with at least some improvement to Inspire Courage? Would levels of Paladin of Freedom hurt this? Dunno why, I like the idea of an Orc Bard using wardrums and tribal chants to inspire comrades. Im not really sold in the "standard" flavor of bard.

Vemynal
2010-09-22, 01:48 AM
you should totally do the bardadin!

sounds fun, personally i'm writing that one down for later!

Shenanigans
2010-09-22, 09:21 AM
I really like the idea of bardadin also. Nothing like giving your character a nice case of SAD.

Personally, I think a dedicated tripper build, while very fun, might be very frustrating for what seems like an already peevish DM. I once played a tripping build with a rather reasonable DM who still got very riled by my tripping of nearly every monster.

If you do go with it, maybe consider a combo charger/tripper build (I like Improved Trip/Knockdown/Leap Attack) which could be fun, pretty effective, and not so overwhelming as to really upset the DM. A size increase (for easier tripping and more baddies in trip range) isn't bad either, maybe via Goliath Barbarian sub level (if you can use Races of Stone) or just potions of enlarge person. If he lets you go Goliath, the jump checks for Leap Attack can be even easier.

Either way, I hope this goes well for you. Good luck!

Snake-Aes
2010-09-22, 09:32 AM
LansX, how willing are you to put up with such a dm? He seems to be really far up into the "The world is the way I want it and you lesser mortals shall obey". It's the type of guy that irks me :|

A beatstick cleric is likely your best choice...except for it to be any functional you will overshadow everyone.

Psyx
2010-09-22, 09:58 AM
Tripping fighter = bad idea. It's a dull one-trick pony which will annoy your GM very quickly.

Likewise, playing characters to show others up is transparent and annoying.


I'd probably go bard. You'll be flexible, so if you pull out a trick the GM nixes, you haven't perma-screwed your character, because you'll have more. If the group don't min-max, you can sit back, relax and not worry about it too much and do some face-man roleplaying.

Or a paladin. Paladins are seen as 'weak', but if you're not in a min-maxxed group you can grab onto the chance to play one without being turned to pate or completely outshone by others. heck: Maybe even a monk!

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 11:03 AM
Halfling Bard with a sling works well. As a halfling, you get MASSIVE bonuses if you even look at a pebble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html). Crank up Inspire Courage high enough and you can make that pebble deadly. I'm talking +16 or so to hit with regular Inspire Courage. Nothing rules bendy about it. If you can, take Dragon Magic, and your character will vicariously deal more damage then the entire party combined, including your own slinging contribution. Its not hard to get silly with a Bard when you start looking around at various books.

Petrocorus
2010-09-22, 11:46 AM
Wow a full build is great, thank you. Im not sure how well a Paladin of Freedom will fit into the DM's rather narrowminded view of the classes, but its worth a shot. Im really considering a bard now, lets see:

If your DM don't want a Paladin of Freedom, you can try
Battle Dancer 1 / Fighter 1
The Battle Dancer is from a Dragon Compendium. I can send you the pdf if you want. It has full BAB, good Ref saves, 4 skill points / lvl and the same AC bonus than the monk but Cha based. You might also take the Fighter variant that give Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter), from UA, i believe, but SRD anyway.
Don't use the Thug variant, you need the armour proficiency for Spellsword. And you don't need 2 more skill points.
Taking the Urban tracking feat at some point may be useful in a campaign where fighting is not main goal.

Edit: Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 have also a lot of good features. Better saves, better skills, and the trrack feat can always be useful.

You can also use the Savage bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) from UA. You lose some linguistic feature but gain the Survival skill and some nature related spell. Lower Ref and better Fort.




Could I, using the books mentioned in the OP, make a tripper Orc bard with at least some improvement to Inspire Courage? Would levels of Paladin of Freedom hurt this? Dunno why, I like the idea of an Orc Bard using wardrums and tribal chants to inspire comrades. Im not really sold in the "standard" flavor of bard.

For the tripping, i would not know, i'm not good enough in the feat-fu.
You can read the Horizon tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) for some inspiration for the feat, but remember you don't have so many feat and you need two for Extra Music and Melodic Casting, or you give up Lyric Thaumaturge and its bonus spell slot and spell known from the wizard list.

For Inspire Courage, your lvl of Lyric Thaumaturge and half your lvl of Sublime Chords stack for the efficiency of you bardic music, but not for determining what bardic music you can do. I known there are some feat for this, you can try to look for the crystal keep feat list.

For the Orc, remember they have a -4 Cha modif.

Greenish
2010-09-22, 11:56 AM
I recommend against playing a paladin with a DM you're not sure you can trust.

Combat cleric could work okay, and bards are of course great.

[Edit]: Orcs have -2 Cha, which is a bit of a bother, but an orc (or half-orc) bard could still work.

Telonius
2010-09-22, 12:15 PM
Spellthief1/Monk2/SpellthiefX might be a decent choice, given the party's optimization level (and DM's restrictions). With that many people in the party, finding a Flanking target isn't going to be that big of a problem. It's going to have useful things to do without outshining anyone. You'll have trapfinding, but not enough skillmonkey stuff so that the Rogue feels left out. The two levels in Monk will get you Stunning Fist for free (remember, a Stunned foe loses Dex to AC), better Fort and Reflex saves, and slightly better hitpoints.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-22, 01:39 PM
You can always do a 'gish' build...

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist10

Still gets a +16 BAB at level 20. You're a spell level behind everyone else, but you are going to be more effective with what you have, so you should fit in power-wise.

At 5th level, you will be Pal2/Sorc3. You don't have 2nd level spells yet, but the wizard has 3rd level spells. This makes you seem less effective than he is. This is good, because we don't want to completely overpower the game, just kinda blend in.

Grab a Mithral Chain Shirt, but don't put it on until you get Spellsword.

Spells of note: Grease, Shield, Enlarge Person (That's your battlefield control, your defensive buff, and your offensive buff).

Feats of note: Exotic Weapon Proficency: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, your 6th level feat will need to be Combat Casting, as a prerequsite for AbChamp.

Drop a Grease down to battlefield control and help get the mooks all nice and clumped up so Blasto can lay down the boom. Otherwise, Enlarge Person and go to town with Tripping and 20' reach.

The following level, pick up Glitterdust

El Dorado
2010-09-22, 02:10 PM
You can always try a monk. OTOH, that might get shot down because of all of their class features. :smallwink:

Awnetu
2010-09-22, 02:30 PM
You can try the Bardadin:
Bard 2 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

BAB +16 CL 18 Fort +9 / Ref +10 / Will +20 Skill points 102

You need Extra music for qualifying for Lyric Thaumaturge and Combat casting for Abj. Champ. You can be a buffer, a bit of a gish, the party face (this party seem not to have one) which is good for role-playing.

You can also try
Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumatuge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Unseen Seer 8

BAB +14 CL 20 Fort +7 / Ref +11 / Will +18 Skill points 126

Less able to fight, but with full casting. And you don't need extra music.

Both this build should be workable at lvl 5 and none should outshine the other PC. Not the wiz or the cleric at least.

problem your dm will ban it on account of too many dips :smallwink:

true_shinken
2010-09-22, 02:49 PM
I really wouldn't play in that game. It sounds like you won't have fun... or you will ruin everyone else's fun.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-22, 03:30 PM
Ask him if you can use LA+0 races in monster manual. Go warforged and pickup juggernaut at 5 or 6 so you can have a laundry list of immunities :). Don't go out of your way to point out the handful of defensive snags and huge gaping holes they have where a few spells work different or simply undo their immunities. Convince the wizard to snag a couple repair spells for you.

LansXero
2010-09-22, 04:12 PM
I really wouldn't play in that game. It sounds like you won't have fun... or you will ruin everyone else's fun.

The players are a blast to be around, and Im not going to try and ruin anyone else's fun. I DM two other groups on the weekends and I just want a break from DMing and play a bit instead; I know how important it is for a good atmosphere to give everyone their time in the spotlight and to make them feel valuable, thats why Im not asking for an ubercharger or OMG I KILLZ EVERYONEZ build; I want something to make the other members of the party feel better, more confident, less dependant on the wizard for everything and more free to play however they want without it causing a TPK :P

Ok, just talked a bit with the one player that brought the group to my attention. He brought some similar concerns up to the DM when they started the adventure, so from what he told me and the advice on this thread, lets see:

- Eberron material (warforged, feats, etc.) are out, because the game is strictly "Forgotten Realms only" or some other such nonsense.
- UA is also out because it "denaturalizes the game and Paladins are only the righteous protectors of justice, if you cant roleplay as one then play another class". So, probably not a good idea going Paladin to have the code shoved down my throat. So much for bardbarian with whirling frenzy too.
- You can only multiclass out to one base class and one prestige class. Prestige classes have to be pre-aproved even if they are in the allowed material.
- Any non "traditionally fantasy player" races are heavily discouraged. My friend says his goblin cleric who was CG and focused on healing (before the dwarves joined) got focused on by every. single. mob. the first encounter they were in; the party helped but somehow enemies kept appearing until the gobbo bit the dust. My friend took the hint and made a bland human.

On that account, I've settled for a Bardbarian Orc. Maybe Ill take Fighter2 and try to argue with him that he either lets me do that, or take flaws (ifeats are the only reason Im taking fighter anyways) then Barbarian 1 then Bard 2? If I remember correctly you can do some nifty things with rage and charisma based stuff like intimidate, right? I can be the counterpart to the rogue, he being all nice and suave and me being all orky (yes, Im going to be an orc, he can eat his dwarf/human/elf loving heart out).

The other option is Combat Cleric Orc. Would that work at level 5? Im really at a loss for combat cleric feats or the order to take them or if another class is needed. Also, any CG orky faerunian god? thanks for all answers so far, plenty of neat ideas both to play myself and to recommend to my players.

Shenanigans
2010-09-22, 04:18 PM
Yeah, to echo what's been said, this guy is sounding less and less fun to play under with every post.

If you hadn't mentioned that UA was out, I'd recommend the Savage bard variant. It's got a nice flavor and would definitely work with an Orc or Half-Orc.

WarKitty
2010-09-22, 04:37 PM
Umm...this is really starting to sound like a one-way trip to railroadtown. My impression is, no matter what you build, the minute you mess up the DM's plans you'll get nerfed. There is no build for that.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-22, 04:41 PM
The players are a blast to be around, and Im not going to try and ruin anyone else's fun. I DM two other groups on the weekends and I just want a break from DMing and play a bit instead; I know how important it is for a good atmosphere to give everyone their time in the spotlight and to make them feel valuable, thats why Im not asking for an ubercharger or OMG I KILLZ EVERYONEZ build; I want something to make the other members of the party feel better, more confident, less dependant on the wizard for everything and more free to play however they want without it causing a TPK :P

Ok, just talked a bit with the one player that brought the group to my attention. He brought some similar concerns up to the DM when they started the adventure, so from what he told me and the advice on this thread, lets see:

- Eberron material (warforged, feats, etc.) are out, because the game is strictly "Forgotten Realms only" or some other such nonsense.
- UA is also out because it "denaturalizes the game and Paladins are only the righteous protectors of justice, if you cant roleplay as one then play another class". So, probably not a good idea going Paladin to have the code shoved down my throat. So much for bardbarian with whirling frenzy too.
- You can only multiclass out to one base class and one prestige class. Prestige classes have to be pre-aproved even if they are in the allowed material.
- Any non "traditionally fantasy player" races are heavily discouraged. My friend says his goblin cleric who was CG and focused on healing (before the dwarves joined) got focused on by every. single. mob. the first encounter they were in; the party helped but somehow enemies kept appearing until the gobbo bit the dust. My friend took the hint and made a bland human.

On that account, I've settled for a Bardbarian Orc. Maybe Ill take Fighter2 and try to argue with him that he either lets me do that, or take flaws (ifeats are the only reason Im taking fighter anyways) then Barbarian 1 then Bard 2? If I remember correctly you can do some nifty things with rage and charisma based stuff like intimidate, right? I can be the counterpart to the rogue, he being all nice and suave and me being all orky (yes, Im going to be an orc, he can eat his dwarf/human/elf loving heart out).

The other option is Combat Cleric Orc. Would that work at level 5? Im really at a loss for combat cleric feats or the order to take them or if another class is needed. Also, any CG orky faerunian god? thanks for all answers so far, plenty of neat ideas both to play myself and to recommend to my players.

That sounds unfortunate about your options and how the DM reacted to the goblin character.

Siosilvar
2010-09-22, 04:44 PM
To the OP: If the DM is that restrictive, and you really want to play with him, ask him what you should play (nicely!).

I have a feeling you'll get an answer right away. That should tell you that he has his story set out and he's not going to let you do much about it.

LansXero
2010-09-22, 04:57 PM
To the OP: If the DM is that restrictive, and you really want to play with him, ask him what you should play (nicely!).

I have a feeling you'll get an answer right away. That should tell you that he has his story set out and he's not going to let you do much about it.

Except its not his story, they are running a pre-written module by the letter (Tomb of Abysthor). But the advice is good, I guess. Anyone know if that module comes with pre-generated characters? Perhaps I could play one of them >_<

Starbuck_II
2010-09-22, 04:57 PM
ANYWAYS, to cut things short, allowed books are Core + Complete Adventurer / Arcane / Divine. Maybe something else on a case-by-case basis, but as you can see its not a very open minded DM. I was thinking either a tripping human fighter 2 / something else (pure fighter would bore me to tears) or something to help relieve the cleric from healbot duty and let her play. Or something that could out-blast the blaster wizard so I can laugh at him. Im sure even with so little material to work with, if anyone can come up with something interesting, its you guys!. It would be a lot better if it was good out-of-the-box, although I dont mind waiting a couple of levels for it to shine; I'd be starting at level 5 unless Im mistaken.


Have you considered Spellthief or Scout?

If you do go Cleric: Complete Divine has Divine Metamagic. Just something to look at.

WarKitty
2010-09-22, 04:59 PM
they are running a pre-written module by the letter (Tomb of Abysthor).

That appears to be the problem. The DM doesn't know what to do if the players break the module.

true_shinken
2010-09-22, 07:07 PM
- Eberron material (warforged, feats, etc.) are out, because the game is strictly "Forgotten Realms only" or some other such nonsense.
That attitude is not helpful, really. It is his campaign and I find it a quite reasonable (and common) restriction.


On that account, I've settled for a Bardbarian Orc.
I thought you wanted a support role?


The other option is Combat Cleric Orc. Would that work at level 5? Im really at a loss for combat cleric feats or the order to take them or if another class is needed. Also, any CG orky faerunian god? thanks for all answers so far, plenty of neat ideas both to play myself and to recommend to my players.
There are no CG orc gods, but there is a Chaotic Neutral one.

Maybe you should try a Spellthief, like already mentioned. They are pretty interesting. Or maybe you should ask the DM what he would suggest.

Petrocorus
2010-09-22, 07:14 PM
With this restrictions, you can try Barbarian 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch Knight x
or
Barbarian 2 / Bard 8 / Eldritch Knight x.


It also depend on what lvl you can hope to reach during the campaign.

LansXero
2010-09-22, 08:24 PM
That attitude is not helpful, really. It is his campaign and I find it a quite reasonable (and common) restriction.

Maybe you are right, I just dont see the point in being so restrictive, but its his game so maybe I shouldnt be antagonistic.


I thought you wanted a support role?

Thats the bard part. I mainly want to soften things up so they can have an easier time :D

WarKitty
2010-09-22, 08:26 PM
That attitude is not helpful, really. It is his campaign and I find it a quite reasonable (and common) restriction.

Given everything else the DM has banned however one starts to wonder if he should actually be playing 3.5.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-22, 09:08 PM
Except its not his story, they are running a pre-written module by the letter (Tomb of Abysthor). But the advice is good, I guess. Anyone know if that module comes with pre-generated characters? Perhaps I could play one of them >_<

Nope, also I suspect the DM's going to kill your orc after a quick scan of it.

LansXero
2010-09-22, 09:38 PM
Nope, also I suspect the DM's going to kill your orc after a quick scan of it.

Anything to do with the module, or just because that the way he seems to be?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-22, 09:45 PM
Anything to do with the module, or just because that the way he seems to be?

Considering how he targeted the goblin cleric? Yea, odds are an orc character is similarly going to get targeted.

LansXero
2010-09-22, 09:47 PM
Nope, also I suspect the DM's going to kill your orc after a quick scan of it.


Considering how he targeted the goblin cleric? Yea, odds are an orc character is similarly going to get targeted.

Oh thats ok, I just thought maybe he DID have a valid in-story reason for the aggresion against greenskins. I dont know much of the plot, so maybe that was an explanation.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-22, 09:52 PM
Anything to do with the module, or just because that the way he seems to be?

Well it's not spelled out in the module, but yes because you might force it to derail slightly it as an orc.

true_shinken
2010-09-22, 10:06 PM
Given everything else the DM has banned however one starts to wonder if he should actually be playing 3.5.

Many people play core only, even. At least the guy is allowing something.

WarKitty
2010-09-22, 10:09 PM
Many people play core only, even. At least the guy is allowing something.

It's sort of the whole picture I'm getting. It seems more like a haphazard banning of things that might mess stuff up (c.f. his reaction to entangle) than a reasoned limitation. That and I hate it when DM's ban builds from sources they allowed.

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 10:09 PM
Many people play core only

And shame on them. Core is the FIRST thing you should ban if you are concerned with balance.

Thurbane
2010-09-22, 10:38 PM
And shame on them. Core is the FIRST thing you should ban if you are concerned with balance.
From my experience, core only is chosen more for simplicity than for balance reasons. The game tends to be a bit easier, especially for newer/part time players if all you need is the SRD or 3 core books.

LansXero
2010-09-23, 02:44 AM
Ok, thanks for the advice so far everyone and thank you for taking an interest to my story. Lets see:

I was allowed to play in place of the druid, who had to skip due to work issues. May be lack of interest though, as last session he was only doing what he was told; he was new at the game (not just the table) and maybe that wasnt the best of welcomes. Anyways:

- Most of the afternoon was spent fighting undead inside 5-feet wide corridors and 15 feet wide rooms. Fighter and rogue felt pretty useless, and the wizard always wanted to have LoS so ranger and cleric were relegated to delay action almost continually.

- The DM never describes rooms, monsters, situations, or pretty much anything. He outright says the monsters name and most of the combat is pretty dull because its a series of calling out numbers. Social situations are awkward for him but the players make them worthwhile.

- Players are a very nice bunch so I hope Ill be allowed to play a char of my own next session. The DM apparently has "lots of experience" and is "one of the best DMs around".

As an aside explanation, Im from a Southamerican country; finding original WotC books here is VERY hard and expensive, 3.5 more so. That may be a big factor on which books are allowed and which arent, so maybe I was a bit unfair with the DM. Also, the store this game takes place in is pretty much the only "serious" gaming store in the city; people who go there are all into MTG tournaments, and the "main scene" of roleplaying. I still consider myself more of a kitchen table kind of DM, so Im hoping Ill make a good impression while playing there to keep acquaintances and get more games in the future. So even though I hate this guy style, just up and quitting inst an option. I know it must sound really silly, but if THIS is what passes as a good DM for the people "in the know", then this could be my chance to make myself known. No, Im not going to try and sabotage or usurp his game, far from it, I want everyone to have a good time and keep it as a good memory; the game being fun for the new people can only be a good thing for the future of the hobby. I just hope I wont be playing with just my close, personal friends or random people from obscure forums in the future, but instead can actually pick and choose who I recruit and what I run, once Ive made a name for myself out there :P

Anyways, thanks for all the build advice. I still think some form of battlefield control is a must for this group to survive without furthering the ego trip the wizard is in; if the druid player shows interest Ill take the time to see if his spell selection and build can improve; the cleric seemed very interested in the concept of a fighting cleric, and her boyfriend was actually surprised that there was another way of "tanking" than just standing in a corridor while having high AC, when I explained him what I wanted to do with a trip build and how it could keep people off them. So maybe he will go that route and Ill play something more casterish or one of the excelent bard mixes presented in here :D.

Malbordeus
2010-09-23, 03:28 AM
i'd ask nicely if I could play a dragon Shaman

the aoe has a recharge time, and isnt overpowered
the auras help everyone in the party without overshadowing all their class abilities, and also givng you something fun to play with

wedges of hp
enough of a bab to do some beat-sticking. maybe sunder or bull-rush? pick a dragon with the element that you wizard favours incase he turns into a whiney little girl and attempts to fireball you, and your set for an enjoyable game... well, maybe not with your DM, but who knows, as he gets more confident with teh rules he might start shouting down the individuals group.

its pretty easy to pick up the old 3.5 pdf's online if your looking for material, the books are becoming a little scarce in most places now.

Zaq
2010-09-23, 03:14 PM
Why are you playing with a GM like this in the first place?

If he's a friend of yours, then talk to him. Don't do it at the table, because that takes time and is disruptive, but contact him during the downtime and ask him why he's so hell-bent on making this not fun. Explain nicely why you think he's going overboard with the rulings, and try to convince him to unclench a little bit.

If he's not a friend of yours, then don't bother. He's not going to make this any fun, after all. Find another group, or if that's not an easy thing to do, start your own. I certainly wouldn't play under anyone like this. I'd either talk to them until they're no longer like this, or I'd just leave. If the game's not fun, it's not worth playing.

Shenanigans
2010-09-23, 03:59 PM
Why are you playing with a GM like this in the first place?

If he's a friend of yours, then talk to him. Don't do it at the table, because that takes time and is disruptive, but contact him during the downtime and ask him why he's so hell-bent on making this not fun. Explain nicely why you think he's going overboard with the rulings, and try to convince him to unclench a little bit.

If he's not a friend of yours, then don't bother. He's not going to make this any fun, after all. Find another group, or if that's not an easy thing to do, start your own. I certainly wouldn't play under anyone like this. I'd either talk to them until they're no longer like this, or I'd just leave. If the game's not fun, it's not worth playing.As a third, riskier, option, send him a link to this thread, from an anonymous account if you prefer.

It will cause something to happen. :)

Jornophelanthas
2010-09-23, 05:19 PM
As a third, riskier, option, send him a link to this thread, from an anonymous account if you prefer.

It will cause something to happen. :)

I'm sorry, but I believe the above to be (very) bad advice.

If you want to address this DM's weaknesses, then do this directly and don't point him to a place that could be perceived as strangers badmouthing him based on one-sided, second-hand information. (And don't expect to remain anonymous to him, either.)

I agree that following it will cause "something to happen", but I can't possibly see any outcome that changes things for the better.

Petrocorus
2010-09-23, 05:35 PM
Another potential build, with low casting is Paladin 5 / Knight of the Weave 10.
Only 1 PrC and all in Forgotten Realms.

snoopy13a
2010-09-23, 06:19 PM
Why are you playing with a GM like this in the first place?

If he's a friend of yours, then talk to him. Don't do it at the table, because that takes time and is disruptive, but contact him during the downtime and ask him why he's so hell-bent on making this not fun. Explain nicely why you think he's going overboard with the rulings, and try to convince him to unclench a little bit.

If he's not a friend of yours, then don't bother. He's not going to make this any fun, after all. Find another group, or if that's not an easy thing to do, start your own. I certainly wouldn't play under anyone like this. I'd either talk to them until they're no longer like this, or I'd just leave. If the game's not fun, it's not worth playing.

I don't think the DM is out of line. I can certainly understand why some people would not want to play in one of his games but that doesn't mean the DM is wrong.

1) The DM only wants core classes. This probably appeals to him from a simplicity standpoint. The less material there is to work from, the easier is it for him to regulate the game. Remember, more sources don't just increase legitmate options but also questionable options (aka cheese) and creates more potential for a player to cheat, either intentionally or through a player's misinterpretation (especially if the DM isn't very familiar with that source).

2) The DM prefers standard races. Again, this is a legitmate personal option. "Monster" races can create tension with NPCs and can strain the plausablity of the group's formation. Additionally, more complex races can bring in potential for cheese and even cheating.

3) Limit on multi-classing. Too much level dipping can seem cheesy. Furthermore, the game does impose experience penalties for multi-classing in certain cases which while often ignored are the official rules. Thus, a limit on multi-classing in addition to experience penalties can be interpreted as being attuned to the "spirit" of the rules.

I'm not saying the DM's position should be adapted by everyone. However, I don't think he is out of line. Personally, I think these three issues are those which "reasonable minds may differ". Furthermore, the DM is outlining his expectations early on so the OP knows what he is getting into.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 06:35 PM
1) The DM only wants core classes.If so, he should have said so, instead of giving allowed sources, then material from them.

2) The DM prefers standard races. Again, this is a legitmate personal option. "Monster" races can create tension with NPCs and can strain the plausablity of the group's formation. Additionally, more complex races can bring in potential for cheese and even cheating.Yes, but again, the proper solution for preferring standard races is to say so, instead of just fiat-killing characters that do not fit the mold.

3) Limit on multi-classing. Too much level dipping can seem cheesy.A lot less cheesy than a straight human druid, in almost all cases. The classes that most benefit from level dipping are the weakest ones.

[Edit]: Of course, we only have the OP's view on this. Still, picking out a goblin cleric for playing a "monster" race doesn't sound like good DMing.

Shenanigans
2010-09-23, 06:42 PM
I'm sorry, but I believe the above to be (very) bad advice.

If you want to address this DM's weaknesses, then do this directly and don't point him to a place that could be perceived as strangers badmouthing him based on one-sided, second-hand information. (And don't expect to remain anonymous to him, either.)

I agree that following it will cause "something to happen", but I can't possibly see any outcome that changes things for the better.I agree with you. Sorry if it didn't come across clearly enough, but this was a joke.

LansXero
2010-09-24, 06:58 AM
i'd ask nicely if I could play a dragon Shaman


Thats actually not a bad idea; IŽll ask if PHB II can be allowed.


its pretty easy to pick up the old 3.5 pdf's online if your looking for material, the books are becoming a little scarce in most places now.

Yeah, I know, and there is also always the SRD wich is awesome, but the main issue is 1. language (its a mainly spanish speaking country) and 2. access to a PC during play. Havent found any legal source of spanish D&D .pdf books, and even then gaming stores dont let you bring "unnoficial" printed pdfs to their gaming groups. But I guess it wouldnt hurt to bring extra books next time and see if that was a reason too.


Why are you playing with a GM like this in the first place?
Not a friend of mine, although I will try to talk to him in between sessions and see where his ideas come from; I was very excited to finally see another DM at work, specially one that plays at a "big" gaming store and is supposed to have a lot of experience. Perhaps my disillusionment made me more bitter about things than I shouldve been or maybe I was being unfair earlier,


Find another group, or if that's not an easy thing to do, start your own.

I did, I run 2 other groups on weekends, but one of them are my RL friends with whom I learned the game and thus we play a very confused, rules light, anything goes, overpowered to hell and back campaign, and the other one is with people new to the genre that also live in all corners of the city, so we usually have only 50 - 60% of the group at any given time.

The problem is that in these groups not only I have to DM but also run the "group coordinator" role. I have to call people in advance to see if they will show up, print out any material I want them to use, be on their tracks about attendance, plan out their builds, etc. Its a bit tiring, I just wanted to let out and play the game (something I have never done in the three years since Ive learned it), and maybe also become familiar with the roleplaying scene in this city; after all this DM 'works' in the biggest gaming shop in the city. Dunno if that seems like a valid reason :P.


Of course, we only have the OP's view on this. Still, picking out a goblin cleric for playing a "monster" race doesn't sound like good DMing

I know I started out being rather harsh so its easy to believe I am one sided; one of the good things about this thread is that it caused me to re-evaluate that point of view and understand things from his side a little bit; the points about wanting core only classes / races / rules-legal multiclassing are good ones, except that as demonstrated by this board in many ocassions if someone wants to break a game, they will do it even with that, and if someone wants to roleplay an interesting character and tell a story, giving them access to every splatbook ever won't automatically turn them into powergamers (and also being good with the mechanics doesn't exclude being a good roleplayer).

I am actually thinking of sending him a link of these boards. There is a lot of info here, and it has helped my own DMing quite a bit; mostly, its an entirely different way of looking at the game, which he may benefit from having. And Ill point out this thread and tell him what I believe to be his shortcomings, so it doesnt look like Im going behind his back.

Thanks everyone for all the advice :D

Petrocorus
2010-09-24, 03:12 PM
{Scrubbed}




I am actually thinking of sending him a link of these boards. There is a lot of info here, and it has helped my own DMing quite a bit; mostly, its an entirely different way of looking at the game, which he may benefit from having. And Ill point out this thread and tell him what I believe to be his shortcomings, so it doesnt look like Im going behind his back.

Thanks everyone for all the advice :D

Maybe it would be better to wait after the death of this thread.