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Leon
2010-09-22, 03:57 AM
I know the answer to what im looking for is going to be in Deities & Demigods but i dont have it. And various seraches on gool have turned up a load of squat all

Questions being.

What Domains to Athena and Hecate have.
What are the clerical alignments for both of them.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 04:05 AM
I don't think we're allowed to answer those questions, actually.

now, this is not from the book, but I would assume that athena would be lawful good (if you run her in a fantasy world anyhow) with domains such as protection, war and ... is heroics a domain? aand knowledge offcourse (also good and law)
Hecate is, if I am not mistaken, the goddess of the household, no?
So I'm thinking NG with hmm...what domains? protection would seem logical. also: good.

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 04:11 AM
Hecate is goddess of magic- and in Deities and Demigods is evil (I think Neutral Evil).

Hestia is the goddess of the household.

Athena is LG in Deities & Demigods.

That said, Deities & Demigods is very generous with alignments- some deities are listed as Good that would be much closer to Evil if they followed the mythology closely.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 04:14 AM
yes offcourse! you're right!
that makes hecates domains magic, evil, and im guessing she is NE? so just give her some of vecnas domains.

true, alignment of ye olde gods is a VERY difficult topic. And why is hades NE?
He was one of the kindest of the greek gods (as in: didnt screw over humanity and the other gods constantly) the only really BAD thing I recall him ever doing was kidnapping the woman he loved.

Heliomance
2010-09-22, 04:19 AM
Yeah, Hades always seems to get painted as a villain. I think everyone goes "god of death==evil". I was also fairly sure that he was a pretty nice guy.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 04:33 AM
the fact that he lives underground and rules a bleak land where souls are sent, and furnaces endlessly melt ore does not help, as this SOMEHOW makes people think of the devil figure from the Abrahamic faiths.
but I digress, Hey OP! Did we help any?

Leon
2010-09-22, 04:48 AM
Yep.
Thankyou, looks like i'll be playing a Cleric of Hecate. Athena has some good vibes but not for this PC i think (PC is a lil bit crazy and not good or has good intentions for the most part = CN)

Prime32
2010-09-22, 04:48 AM
the fact that he lives underground and rules a bleak land where souls are sent, and furnaces endlessly melt ore does not help, as this SOMEHOW makes people think of the devil figure from the Abrahamic faiths.Even though he's in charge of rewarding the good souls too. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverybodyHatesHades)

Leon
2010-09-22, 04:52 AM
Yeah, Hades always seems to get painted as a villain. I think everyone goes "god of death==evil". I was also fairly sure that he was a pretty nice guy.

Kelemvour and Wee Jas would like a word.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 05:12 AM
Hecate...was that the one who begged Zeus to turn her loverboy immortal? and he did, but didnt give him eternal youth?
sure she was a bit inconsiderate but not EVIL I think...
oh well, details...details

from wikipedia: She has been associated with childbirth, nurturing the young, gates and walls, doorways, crossroads, magic, lunar lore, torches and dogs

does not sound TOO bad...

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-22, 05:17 AM
true, alignment of ye olde gods is a VERY difficult topic. And why is hades NE?
He was one of the kindest of the greek gods (as in: didnt screw over humanity and the other gods constantly) the only really BAD thing I recall him ever doing was kidnapping the woman he loved.

He is? I thought he was Lawful Neutral. I mean, I'm sure he's Lawful Neutral somewhere, if not in D&DG.

AslanCross
2010-09-22, 05:24 AM
yes offcourse! you're right!
that makes hecates domains magic, evil, and im guessing she is NE? so just give her some of vecnas domains.

true, alignment of ye olde gods is a VERY difficult topic. And why is hades NE?
He was one of the kindest of the greek gods (as in: didnt screw over humanity and the other gods constantly) the only really BAD thing I recall him ever doing was kidnapping the woman he loved.

Not to mention that Zeus went around seducing women, and Poseidon went around raping women and causing earthquakes and storms. (From what I remember, anyway)

Calmar
2010-09-22, 05:29 AM
I think th eonly major Greek god who might be overall evil might be Poseidon, since he's the source of most of the monsters that haunt mythological Greece. .

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 05:30 AM
I think Poseidon in 3rd ed is CN.

Hera was Neutral, suggested to have minor evil tendencies.

Zeus was CG.

And so on.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 05:32 AM
nah, Hera did many bad things, as did zeus and I think Aphrodite did some evil as well, Ares's only crime that I recall was loving to fight, but yeah, he was not a good person...er...god. Poseidon did indeed do alot of bad things as well, but the point is that the greek gods were basically just a bunch of drunk jerks, and the greeks knew this...
then again, they too were kinda drunk...and jerks...

I would imagine zeus being LN. him being, you know, the destroyer of titans and bringer of order...
so yeah :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 05:57 AM
Deities in general tend to be distorted a bit in novels, games, etc. Some get played up as Big Bad, others tend to have their flaws minimized.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 06:01 AM
Tell me about it! I go on a nerdRAAAGEEE every time that happens

jmbrown
2010-09-22, 06:23 AM
The Greek gods would all be Neutral with lawful/chaotic tendencies IMO. None of them are particularly altruistic with their incestuous affairs and cannibalism (didn't Zeus eat his daughter or am I thinking of someone else?) but they're not "*Yawn* I'm bored, let's kill random mortals for no reason" evil. They're petty and trifling but help as many people as they screw over.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 06:47 AM
essentially...they are human

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 06:50 AM
Ares tends to get portrayed the worst- as both destructive and cowardly. (God of War, and Hercules/Xena, both have him as a villain).

The "Ares is cowardly" reputation probably stems from an incident in the Trojan War where he flees from a part-human hero called Diomedes.


(didn't Zeus eat his daughter or am I thinking of someone else?)

Athena- yes. Swallowed her whole, got a headache- got someone to relieve it by hitting him over the head with an axe, and Athena sprang forth.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 06:55 AM
this is true. the only one who really worshipped him were the dacians and spartans (or wo I've heard)
Ares was rejected by both his parents and was one of zeus few non-bastard sons, which must have left some psychological scars.
His recorded deeds were not much worse than the other gods, but yes, he was a destructive coward.

yes, greek mythology is a great interest of mine.

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-22, 06:56 AM
Ares tends to get portrayed the worst- as both destructive and cowardly. (God of War, and Hercules/Xena, both have him as a villain).

He is also a cheat and committed adultery with his brother's wife, but we'll let those slide.

Shademan
2010-09-22, 07:00 AM
He is also a cheat and committed adultery with his brother's wife, but we'll let those slide.

hardly the greatest crime in the world...
and she came on to him :P

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 07:59 AM
"Softening" the personalities of some of the Greek gods, may be necessary to make the campaign more enjoyable- having the vast majority as evil or a very dark neutral, might be good for a dark campaign, but may not be so good for a conventional one.

So- Zeus might be more like the guy in Hercules The Legendary Journeys, rather than the guy in God of War.

Dienekes
2010-09-22, 08:06 AM
Athena- yes. Swallowed her whole, got a headache- got someone to relieve it by hitting him over the head with an axe, and Athena sprang forth.

If I remember correctly he swallowed Metis, his first wife, in order to prevent her from having a son which was prophecized to overthrow him and be worse than the titans. Athena later popped out of his head in full panoply and Metis stayed within Zeus, oddly still alive giving him guidance.

The cannibalism element of Greek myth I've always found rather odd in just how long a cannibalized god survives. Poseidon, Hera, Hades, they were cannibalized once and look how well they turned out.

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-22, 08:09 AM
The cannibalism element of Greek myth I've always found rather odd in just how long a cannibalized god survives. Poseidon, Hera, Hades, they were cannibalized once and look how well they turned out.

If you go with certain interpretations, such as that of God of War, titans were, well, titanic compared to gods. A titan could swallow a god, no problem, and the god could live inside, probably feeding on the titan's flesh.

hamishspence
2010-09-22, 08:10 AM
If I remember correctly he swallowed Metis, his first wife, in order to prevent her from having a son which was prophecized to overthrow him and be worse than the titans. Athena later popped out of his head in full panoply and Metis stayed within Zeus, oddly still alive giving him guidance.

Good point- so Athena hadn't even had time to be born before she and her mother were swallowed.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-22, 09:50 AM
In my game world, greek gods are pretty nice guys; they're portreyed as horrible beings because of an attempt from a secret organisation to "prove" that faith is a barbaric thing, especially faith in the old ways.

Well, that brings absolutely nothing to the thread... Just wanted to say that.

Dienekes
2010-09-22, 10:26 AM
If you go with certain interpretations, such as that of God of War, titans were, well, titanic compared to gods. A titan could swallow a god, no problem, and the god could live inside, probably feeding on the titan's flesh.

This gets into some problem with Metis being swallowed by Zeus as in different myths she is either another god (and thus of similar proportion presumably) or a titan herself and thus by the above interpretation bigger than Zeus.

I just chalk it up that deific cannibalism follows different rules than humanity and let it go.

Also, I always wondered what the real difference was between the titans and gods in Greek myth. Zeus is the son of a titan with another titan, you'd think he'd be a titan. Apparently not, again chalk it up to otherwordlyness.

LibraryOgre
2010-09-22, 10:32 AM
The Mod Wonder: Just a reminder, folks: Discussion of real world religion, including the ancient Greek beliefs, is against the rules. Keep it to game terminology, and not the content of the religious stories.

Calmar
2010-09-22, 10:40 AM
The main problem is, that in the real world mythologies I know (Egyptian, Greek, ab bit Sumerian and Babylonian) a god/dess is per definition is good. Even gods who commit evil acts, such as Setesh who kills his brother, are always an important part of creation and order.

But then, Greek gods are a special case, because they honestly have very low morals. Just as the heroes of the Troyan War spent their time drinking, killing, looting and raping for fun, many of the Greek gods do similar things.

To be good in Greek mythology, it seems, basically means to be manly. It's not about how kind or how orderly you are. The alignment spectrum probably should not range from good to evil and lawful to chaotic, but rather from brave to sissy and libidinous to asexual... :smalleek:

Noodles2375
2010-09-22, 10:53 AM
OP:

I would give Athena's clerics access to domains like (from SRD):

War (historically she was the other war god)
Law and Good (her alignment domains, and generally reflective of her attitudes to building a society)
Knowledge (known as a goddess of wisdom)
Protection (fits with the war/ defender of Athens theme)


For Hecate:
Travel (goddess of crossroads)
Animals (closely associated with dogs, frogs and other animals)
Magic (associated with the Egyptian Isis in the role of Sorceress)
Plants (associated with plant lore)
Chaos (probably fits ok with her alignment, maybe chaotic neutral, free spirit-y)

Leon
2010-09-22, 12:10 PM
OP:

I would give Athena's clerics access to domains like (from SRD):

War (historically she was the other war god)
Law and Good (her alignment domains, and generally reflective of her attitudes to building a society)
Knowledge (known as a goddess of wisdom)
Protection (fits with the war/ defender of Athens theme)


For Hecate:
Travel (goddess of crossroads)
Animals (closely associated with dogs, frogs and other animals)
Magic (associated with the Egyptian Isis in the role of Sorceress)
Plants (associated with plant lore)
Chaos (probably fits ok with her alignment, maybe chaotic neutral, free spirit-y)

I'd like to choose Athena but the whole Law and Good the is not the current PCs ideal alotment and the potenial of Hecate's Domains sits slightly better anyway (gain Knowledge Domain anyway as the PC is a Cloistered cleric)

Magic is useful (having the Magic Domain utility spells would be useful given i think we're going to be down one wizard soon)
Travel is useful for similar reasons to Magic

And just having looked at Animal it has nothing to do with the flavour of the PC and the same with plants.

So Demetrius the Cloistered Cleric of Hecate 7/Barbarian 2 is ready to go again.

I'll read up in more detail on the ins and outs of Hecate but i just wanted to get the domains and alignment steps sorted out.

Thankyou all.

Skorj
2010-09-22, 03:56 PM
I find it amusing that the main reason Athena is seen as "lawful and good" is that a lot of our record of the Greek mythos comes from the culture of ancient Athens. The name is not a coincidence. :smallamused:

I put together the folowing for an online game, basd on the 1E Deities and Demigods (and the needs of my game), if this is of any help?


Zeus (LN) [Air, Strength] - Ruler of the gods, god of the air, and general symbol of power.

Athena (LG) [Magic, Protection, War] - Goddess of the Arcane, and of martial skill, and victory in a rightous cause (subsumes Nike). Goddess of Paladins. Commonly worshipped by arcane casters.

Aphrodite (CG) [Healing] - Goddess of love; yes, that kind of love.

Apollo (CG) [Knowledge, Luck, Sun] - God of archery and music, and of prophecy. Often prayed to when hoping a "long shot" works. Many non-evil rogues worship Apollo instead of Hermes.

Ares (CE) [Destruction, Strength, War] - God of war and ruin.

Artemis (N) [Animal, Plant] - Goddess of the hunt, and of the wild. Her priests are all druids (but not every druid worships her).

Demeter (NG) [Animal, Earth] - Goddess of the harvest, of the earth, of fertility, of chastity (in the older sense, not celebacy).

Dionysus (CN) [Plant, Travel] - God of wine and revelry. Not really a god of drunkards, more of partying and lack of concern for the future (subsumes Pan).

Hades (NE) [Death, Earth] - God of death. Ruler of the NE plane in this setting. Not a nice guy.

Hecate (LE) [Fire, Magic] - The other goddess of the Arcane, sometimes referred to simply as "the Other" by arcane casters.

Hera (N) [Healing, Protection] - Goddess of the household, of marriage, of keeping relationships going.

Hermes (CN) [Luck, Travel, Trickery] - God of thieves and con-men, of speed (but mostly in the sense of quick-talking). Worshipped by many rogues.

Posidon (CN) [Destruction, Water] - God of the sea, and of (disaster-causing) storms.

Vulcan (N) [Fire, Knowledge] - God of fire, of smithing, of engineering, and of arcane crafting. Often prayed to by arcane casters when crafting contingencies. :smallwink:

HenryHankovitch
2010-09-23, 12:42 AM
I'll post my list as well, however redundant. I tried to "medieval-ize" the Hellenic gods, trying to imagine them as patrons of a polytheistic church system, rather than figures of bizarre and amoral myths. The intent was to replace the essentially arbitrary lists of D&D/Pathfinder deities with names that the players are likely to somewhat recognize. Generic sun god, generic death god, etc.


This was the pantheon favored by the Devonian Empire, which unified and ruled the Marches hundreds of years ago. It is not an exclusive list of the gods worshiped in this realm--older belief systems, interloper gods from foreign lands, and small cults of varying sorts can be found throughout the lands, and particularly in the ungoverned wilds past the borders of the Duchies. But Apollonian and Athenian worship is favored by the wealthiest and most powerful lords, and so this pantheon is commonplace, especially dominant in the cities.

Zeus (LN) - Air, Magic, Weather, Strength
Despite being commonly revered as the father of the gods, Zeus is actually rarely worshiped directly, and has few clergy or churches in his name. He is often invoked at temples of his children, particularly Apollo and Pallas Athene. A few, iconoclastic warriors or priests take up his cause, however, often serving as traveling justicars or knights-errant.

Apollo (LG) - Sun, Nobility, Healing, War, Glory
Apollo is commonly depicted as a handsome young man in gilded armor, sometimes mounted on a winged horse or a dragon. The Apollonian church is widespread, popular, and wealthy, with temples in all large cities and many towns. Larger temples will often have shrines to other deities in the pantheon, allowing worshipers to pay their respects to the likes of Hermes or Demeter as well. Popular with the nobility--at least publicly--it serves as a center of public life, and numerous orders of knights, clerics, and paladins swear themselves to Apollo's service. Consequently the church possesses organization and communication between its priests and temples, though it has no centralized bureaucracy.

Artemis (CG) - Nobility, Travel, Protection, Healing, Animal
The cult of Artemis was adopted into the greater Apollonian church hundreds of years ago. Today, she is worshiped literally alongside Apollo, often depicted side-by-side, or at least enjoying prominent secondary status. The two are often described as complementing each other philosophically, embodying the duality of masculine and feminine ideals. Artemis is favored by rangers and scouts, and is the patron of female warriors and knights.

Agrotera (Artemis) (N) - Animal, Liberation, Plant, Travel
An older, more traditional faction of Artemis-worship refuses her identification (and implied subordination) with Apollow. A few temples or priestess-circles still revere Artemis exclusively as an untamed goddess of the wilds. Druids and rangers, and even some tribes of lycanthropes revere "the Huntress" with the old traditions, in hidden shrines, circles, and glades on the fringes of civilization.

Pallas Athene (LN) - Knowledge, Liberation, Magic, Protection, War
A goddess of war, knowledge, and civilization itself, worship of Athene is second only to that of Apollo in popularity. Learning, literacy, and instruction are considered blessings to be spread by her faithful; consequently, her temples often double as libraries or schools. Athene's priests collect books and scrolls, copying them in return for services or donations, and sometimes commissioning adventurers to seek out lost texts. Civic-minded wizards revere Athene, and a few mage-circles have been founded in her name. She also personifies skill at arms and strategy, and commanders publicly appeal to her on the eve of battle.

Herakles (NG) - War, Strength, Protection, Glory
A demigod of lesser power and influence, Herakles was a mythical human hero said to have been elevated to godhood. He is revered as a paragon and saint rather than worshiped as a god, serving as the inspiration and patron for paladins and warriors. The cult of Herakles is considered a subsidiary part of the Apollonian church, which frowns on anything resembling direct worship of Herakles.

Hephaestus (N) - Artifice, Earth, Rune, Fire
God of smiths, builders, and other craftsmen, Hephaestus has few temples of his own. He is commonly represented in guildhall shrines, invoked in their initiation and meeting ceremonies. Priests of Hephaestus organize patronage, apprenticeships, and the preservation of trade secrets.

Hermes (CN) - Liberation, Luck, Travel, Trickery, Knowledge
There is no organized clergy of Hermes, but his shrines--often modest and anonymous--are widespread among merchant-houses, guildhalls, way stations, inns, and the like. He represents the struggle for wealth, the desire to discover knowledge and influence through cleverness and ambition. He supports legitimate and illegal enterprises alike, always promoting the flow of coin and the whispering of secrets.

Demeter (NG) - Community, Plant, Healing, Protection
A goddess of fertility, the harvest, motherhood and the bounty of the natural world, Demeter's worship is found in the countryside, temples isolated by distance and scarce numbers, yet popular among herders and growers everywhere. She is commonly invoked during rituals of planting and harvest, births and marriages, and shrines to Demeter will often be found in both the humblest villages and the largest cathedrals of Apollo. Her priests are rarely militant, but promote the protection of the helpless, and the safety of family and community.

Poseidon (CN) - Destruction, Ice, Weather, Water
Ill-tempered and unpredictable god of the sea, Poseidon has few, if any, temples or priests to his name. Druids are thought to celebrate him in secret locations, often near rocky sea-shores. Feared rather than worshiped, small shrines to Poseidon are common among fishing villages and other seaside settlements, though few believe he pays any attemtion to the gifts or pleas of humanity. Stories are common, however, of people invoking Poseidon's enduring wrath, usually through blasphemy or hubris, or the killing of merfolk.

Hades (N) - Darkness, Death, Earth, Repose
Sometimes depicted as a sullen lord of the underworld, jealous of life and beauty, Hades is in fact a stern and even-handed judge. His greatest concerns are maintaining the natural order of life and death, and the consignment of souls to their proper afterlife. There are only a very few worshipers of Hades--undead hunters, monastic cemetery-keeping orders, the occasional mad would-be necromancer--and no temple organization.

Ares (NE) - Destruction, Strength, War
A god of slaughter and tyranny, Ares was commonly worshiped in ancient times, though his adherents have long since been driven into hiding by the Apollonian church. But followers of Ares are still widespread, even if they keep their beliefs hidden. It is not unheard-of for a commander to publicly ask Pallas Athene for wisdom and strength, then to offer the blood of his enemies to Ares in secret. Ares favors tyrants and warlords, pillaging bandits, and half-feral barbarians. He is commonly associated with orcs and other monstrous races, though none are actually known to worship him by name.

Cronus (CE) - Destruction, Madness, Trickery
Cronus is commonly thought to be the last--or most powerful--survivor of several gods that predate the rise of the Apollonian church and its pantheon, and are often depicted as having been killed or banished in a war between the rival deities. Cronus is often referred to as "the Devourer," a being that cares only for mindless death, suffering, and destruction. Cultists of Cronus are often depicted in folklore as being angry toward the 'usurper' gods, or seeking the downfall of the nobility who inherited the fragments of a long-dissolved empire. In practice, most are simply savages or madmen who pursue power and violence without moral concern.

Hecate (LE) - Fire, Magic, Knowledge, Darkness
A mysterious deity, also thought to predate the ascension of the current pantheon. What worshipers she has keep the secrets of her dogma to themselves; she is associated with witches, amoral mages, and seekers of forbidden knowledge. Supplicants will often come to Hecate indirectly or even unintentionally, through discovery of rare writings, carvings in abandoned ruins, strange artifacts. Whatever her goals, Hecate seems to reward the pursuit of knowledge and magical power through any means necessary.

Lesser gods: There are numerous other deities, demigods and heroic figures, of varying popularity and minimal influence. Hestia--goddess of hearths and motherhood--is widely revered, especially among midwives, but has no established church. Aphrodite, in contrast, is popularly invoked by poets as the personification of love and beauty, but is almost never truly worshiped aside from a few mystery cults. Dionysus, god of revelry, wine, and art, is almost entirely ignored except for the midwinter Festivus, which is a days-long holiday of debauchery and drunken foolishness. Such gods are recognized as such by the Apollonian church, but are given only token attention.

sokbeest
2010-09-23, 06:48 PM
This thread has taken an interesting direction, but as far as the original questions go:

What Domains to Athena and Hecate have.
What are the clerical alignments for both of them.

...there is a summarized index of D&D Deities, including the Greek pantheon, on crystalkeep.com.

Leon
2010-09-24, 02:06 AM
Hmm, I'm thinking maybe i should choose Thoth - has all the domains that I'd originally decided before i had "must choose a god" push onto my PC.