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Black_Zawisza
2010-09-22, 09:53 PM
I recall hearing about a feat in there that gives you some sort of bonus if you vow never to kill anyone. I think it was Vow of Nonviolence. Does anybody have more info about this?

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 09:59 PM
Professional Theoretical Optimiser opinion: This feat is EXTREMELY strong. The DC's you can rig up with this feat make it hard for GODS to hate on you.

Professional Casual Gamer opinion: This feat is TERRIBLE. It will make your party HATE you, to the point where they will probably bludgeon your character about the head and face, stuff you in a chest, drive spikes through the chest, light the chest on fire, and then push it off a nearby cliff, through a Prismatic Sphere. Yes, its THAT frustrating. Friends don't let friends play with Vow of Non-violence and Vow of Peace.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-22, 10:07 PM
Professional Theoretical Optimiser opinion: This feat is EXTREMELY strong. The DC's you can rig up with this feat make it hard for GODS to hate on you.

Professional Casual Gamer opinion: This feat is TERRIBLE. It will make your party HATE you, to the point where they will probably bludgeon your character about the head and face, stuff you in a chest, drive spikes through the chest, light the chest on fire, and then push it off a nearby cliff, through a Prismatic Sphere. Yes, its THAT frustrating. Friends don't let friends play with Vow of Non-violence and Vow of Peace.

+1. Seriously, VoNV is horrible for the party and incredibly unbalanced for your DM.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-22, 10:09 PM
In the tradition of killing monsters and looting their corpses, Vow of Peace/Nonviolence don't really fit into an adventuring party. They're still extremely strong feats mechanically, but they're also a fairly severe hindrance to the rest of the party. They probably work best for a Beguiler (PH2), who gets tons of enchantment and illusion spells along with some strong choices for dealing nonlethal damage. You could put Int and Cha high and intentionally make your Wisdom score abysmally low, with no ranks in Sense Motive. Have another character in the party with max ranks in Bluff, who always distracts your character or tricks him into getting out of sight so the rest of the party can execute the opponents instead of capturing them. "They wouldn't surrender! They said they would die fighting before they'd allow themselves to be captured! We had to do it!"

The Mentalist
2010-09-22, 10:12 PM
I don't have a link to the Akbar picture but...


IT'S A TRAP!!! For everyone who hangs with you.


You will die alone, and incredibly non-violently. You will have seventy million cats and not be able to hit them with a rolled up scroll when they yak and poo on your bed... and they will... for eternity... They will follow to that cushy good aligned hell in the sky to torment you for alienating everyone you ever cared about.


But for a solo game go for it, and when you die and go to your preferred afterlife you can tell Gary Gygax just what you did to his nice little role-playing game.

Black_Zawisza
2010-09-22, 10:26 PM
I appreciate the advice, but I don't know what it actually DOES. Can anybody help me with that?

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 10:30 PM
Vow of Non-violence gives you a Calm Emotions aura. The DC is pretty rediculous. Vow of Peace gives you a +4 bonus to that (and other) DCs, pumping it past the realm of usefulness and into the realm of ludacris. If your allies kill a foe within sight of you, they suffer cumulative -1s on pretty much every d20 roll, due to your crushing morality.

Basically, you can't fight, and you make it so that nobody else can fight. If anyone does manage to fight around you, you beat them repeatedly with a nerf bat until they are subsequently unable to fight.

Its as rediculous as it sounds. Don't do it.

EDIT: Oopse, had it backwards. Vow of Peace gives the Calm Emotions aura, and Vow of Non-violence gives you the +4 DCs.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-22, 10:31 PM
I appreciate the advice, but I don't know what it actually DOES. Can anybody help me with that?

Basically everyone in X radius must make a Will save in order to take hostile actions (attacking, casting spells that deal some kind of damage, etc).

If they make the save, they are immune to the effects of your aura for as long they remain in the radius. But if they leave, they have to save again if they reenter. If they fail, they can't do squat to you or your allies.

The problem is you can abuse your move actions to force multiple saves. Every round. At will.

And the aura disappears if you ever violate it. If you do so willingly, you lose the feat forever. If you do so against your will, you need to get an Atonement casting from someone else in order to regain the aura.

Edit: 'Nathed. Man, I used to be a god at stealing the replies (on Dial-Up no less). I'm slipping.

Black_Zawisza
2010-09-22, 10:34 PM
Basically everyone in X radius must make a Will save in order to take hostile actions (attacking, casting spells that deal some kind of damage, etc).

If they make the save, they are immune to the effects of your aura for as long they remain in the radius. But if they leave, they have to save again if they reenter. If they fail, they can't do squat to you or your allies.

The problem is you can abuse your move actions to force multiple saves. Every round. At will.

And the aura disappears if you ever violate it. If you do so willingly, you lose the feat forever. If you do so against your will, you need to get an Atonement casting from someone else in order to regain the aura.

Edit: 'Nathed. Man, I used to be a god at stealing the replies (on Dial-Up no less). I'm slipping.
So you can't even do nonlethal damage or anything?

Elemental_Elf
2010-09-22, 10:38 PM
Basically everyone in X radius must make a Will save in order to take hostile actions (attacking, casting spells that deal some kind of damage, etc).

I once used an NPC who had these feats. He was kidnapped by bandits and the PCs had to go save him BUT he was an avowed pacifist and begged the PCs to not deal lethal damage. They refused... And let me tell you that combat was about as interesting as playing battleship by yourself... :smallannoyed::smallwink:

Keld Denar
2010-09-22, 10:38 PM
You can do non-lethal. You can't cause lethal HP damage, ability damage, negative levels, or any effects that cause death or severe discomfort. Things like stunning (as with Stunning Fist) or causing fatigue/exhaustion are explicitly allowed, though.

Really, if you want to know exactly, go to your local book store, grab the book, and sit down and read if for a few. Or just buy it, if you plan on using it extensively.

I wouldn't recommend it though. Most of the stuff in their is rediculous. Its either hideously overpowered, or completely worthless. There is almost nothing in there that is a "middle ground" as far as power goes. MAYBE Ancestral Weapon, but thats about it...

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-22, 10:43 PM
I once used an NPC who had these feats. He was kidnapped by bandits and the PCs had to go save him BUT he was an avowed pacifist and begged the PCs to not deal lethal damage. They refused... And let me tell you that combat was about as interesting as playing battleship by yourself... :smallannoyed::smallwink:

I know. The feats are horrible.

If you are going to take anything related to a Vow of Peace, be a Technical Pacifist and just use Battlefield Control to enforce your "peaceful" ways. Do not actually take VoNV or VoPe.

Elemental_Elf
2010-09-22, 11:15 PM
There is almost nothing in there that is a "middle ground" as far as power goes. MAYBE Ancestral Weapon, but thats about it...

Hehe, yeah that is about the only thing that isn't ultra-good/bad... Actually the Holy Barbarian PrC (the name escapes me at the moment) looks kinda fun. But on the whole I agree, there really isn't much in the book for normal games.


I know. The feats are horrible.

If you are going to take anything related to a Vow of Peace, be a Technical Pacifist and just use Battlefield Control to enforce your "peaceful" ways. Do not actually take VoNV or VoPe.

I could not agree with you more! :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 12:45 AM
I was exagurating a bit. Stalker of Kalresh isn't too bad, since it gives Favored Enemy: Evil. While thats the most BROAD topic of Favored Enemy you could ever hope for, its still...Favored Enemy. About the most abusive thing you can pull with that is then nabbing the Favored Power Attack feat for 3:1 PA vs 90% of things that adventures fight on a regular basis. Fist of Razriel is also decent, but requires you take one of your perfectly good feats, douse it with gasoline, and set it on fire in the name of a more versatile smite.

There are some pretty bad offenders in it though. Starmantle Cloak, Words of Creation, I'm looking at you. Also, Vow of Poverty, while promising, falls dramatically short of doing what its supposed to do. Which is sad.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-23, 01:05 AM
The vows of peace and non-violence to require a somewhat different campaign style. Talk to your group about this before you put it into your build. If your group does decide that an BoED campaign is right for them, you might also consider the vow of poverty. The VoP does make it difficult (arguably impossible) to reach the same level of power you could reach without it, but it does combine with VoPe and VoNV to make a VERY different campaign.


Important-easily-overlooked-point: if a wizard takes the vow of poverty he will become unplayable as a character because he will no longer be able to carry a spell-book.

mobdrazhar
2010-09-23, 02:04 AM
The vows of peace and non-violence to require a somewhat different campaign style. Talk to your group about this before you put it into your build. If your group does decide that an BoED campaign is right for them, you might also consider the vow of poverty. The VoP does make it difficult (arguably impossible) to reach the same level of power you could reach without it, but it does combine with VoPe and VoNV to make a VERY different campaign.


Important-easily-overlooked-point: if a wizard takes the vow of poverty he will become unplayable as a character because he will no longer be able to carry a spell-book.

Isn't there an ability to use your body as a spell book>

Shenanigans
2010-09-23, 08:57 AM
Isn't there an ability to use your body as a spell book>Yes there is, but I believe that was published after the BoED. Maybe they just expected VoP wizards to take Spell Mastery...a lot.

One of my main 3.5 characters (campaign with little to mild optimization) was a monk with VoP. If you have a build that accounts for it, VoP can be very powerful at certain levels. We found that once I hit 7th-8th level, the combination of monk and VoP made for a very useful character. Lots of immunities and resistances, a ridiculous AC, and some other neat abilities. However, since few of the VoP abilities scale beyond level 20, things evened out a lot at epic levels.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 08:58 AM
Hehe, yeah that is about the only thing that isn't ultra-good/bad... Actually the Holy Barbarian PrC (the name escapes me at the moment) looks kinda fun.Champion of Gggwgwhrhgwrhgwrhg. (There might've been a vowel somewhere in the name, but I'll be damned if I remember where.)

Greyfell
2010-09-23, 09:11 AM
Champion of Gwynharwyf. And second this, the combination of rage, cause fear, paladin CHA to saves and toss in full BaB and some limited spellcasting from a fairly sweet list as well. Oh, and extra smite evils.

Telonius
2010-09-23, 09:28 AM
Champion of Gggwgwhrhgwrhgwrhg. (There might've been a vowel somewhere in the name, but I'll be damned if I remember where.)

I think she's from the same country as Fharhrllgnnhgnghnhnhn.

Vow of NV actually isn't that terrible for RP purposes, it's Vow of Peace that's supremely annoying. With Vow of Nonviolence, you're a Wizard that can't do any direct damage spells on humanoids or monstrous humanoids. This bothers you how? Focus on buffs/debuffs/battlefield control like a good little Batman, and it'll work out fine. If you really feel the need to blast somebody, there's the Whelm spells.

As for combat, it says nothing about your companions needing to deal nonlethal damage, just that you can't deal lethal. The oath doesn't require you to be an idiot about prisoners, either: if a captured foe gives you its oath of surrender, and breaks it, you're free to let your allies murder it in its sleep.

SurlySeraph
2010-09-23, 12:41 PM
I wouldn't recommend it though. Most of the stuff in their is rediculous. Its either hideously overpowered, or completely worthless. There is almost nothing in there that is a "middle ground" as far as power goes. MAYBE Ancestral Weapon, but thats about it...

Some of the spells and most of the PrCs are fine. The items are mostly either pointless or too powerful (DC 17 save vs paralysis every time I hit, for a +2 enhancement? Reflex saves to take half damage on all attacks? Bow of the Solars, including the "every arrow is a slaying arrow" clause? [though that last one's so expensive that it's actually reasonable]). The spells tend to vary between "What's the point of this again?" and "OK, this is pretty nice," though Channel (Greater) Celestial, can lead to ridiculous shenanigans, especially if you have enough metamagic reducers to chain it.

But back on topic. Vows bad. Annoy party. GM will probably have all the enemies you knocked unconscious come right back after you again. Don't take.

Shenanigans
2010-09-23, 01:26 PM
Channel (Greater) Celestial, can lead to ridiculous shenanigans
And the problem with that is... ;)

Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace can get tiresome for a party of stereotypical adventurers. An Exalted party, or at least one that borders on holy-ish could work well with it though.

AvatarZero
2010-09-23, 01:52 PM
I think she's from the same country as Fharhrllgnnhgnghnhnhn.

Vow of NV actually isn't that terrible for RP purposes, it's Vow of Peace that's supremely annoying. With Vow of Nonviolence, you're a Wizard that can't do any direct damage spells on humanoids or monstrous humanoids. This bothers you how? Focus on buffs/debuffs/battlefield control like a good little Batman, and it'll work out fine. If you really feel the need to blast somebody, there's the Whelm spells.

As for combat, it says nothing about your companions needing to deal nonlethal damage, just that you can't deal lethal. The oath doesn't require you to be an idiot about prisoners, either: if a captured foe gives you its oath of surrender, and breaks it, you're free to let your allies murder it in its sleep.

Yeah, Vow of Nonviolence on it's own is pretty good. If you've seen Firefly then you know how Shepherd Book fights; he's OK with his friends killing to defend themselves, but he sticks to non-lethal attacks. (Lots of kneecap shots. Apparently people never bleed to death in Firefly.) Your allies are only restricted to the effect of "no coup-de-grace attacks"; if the Barbarian happens to take someone from positive HP to on the ground in pieces in one attack, then that's part of the unfortunate reality of combat. Also, they're free to murder people who aren't humanoids or non-humanoids. (No killing Goblins or Minotaurs. Dragons, Undead and Demons are fair game.)

Vow of Nonviolence increases DC for all nonlethal abilities by 4 (only against humanoids and monstrous humanoids), but doesn't stack with Spell Focus. You can also use it with Stunning Fist, and Monks aren't inhibited by having to deal non-lethal damage. I wonder if there's anyone else who would benefit from this feat, besides Monks and casters. Knights, maybe? Does their challenge ability require a saving throw?

Greenish
2010-09-23, 01:56 PM
Also, they're free to murder people who aren't humanoids or non-humanoids.Doesn't that include everything? :smallamused:

Zaydos
2010-09-23, 02:02 PM
Vow of Nonviolence is super Greater Spell Focus for every school as long as your spells don't deal damage. It can be done in party without tearing the game apart. It's an overpowered feat (+4 to save DCs) with an RP limitation that is fairly easy to work around unless you're party is fighting humanoid foes on a regular basis and then coup de graces might not be in order.

Vow of Peace is broken. RP-wise it makes your allies hate you and want to kill you. Game mechanically it breaks the game into pieces. Don't do it.

Telonius
2010-09-23, 02:06 PM
Yeah, Vow of Nonviolence on it's own is pretty good. If you've seen Firefly then you know how Shepherd Book fights; he's OK with his friends killing to defend themselves, but he sticks to non-lethal attacks. (Lots of kneecap shots. Apparently people never bleed to death in Firefly.) Your allies are only restricted to the effect of "no coup-de-grace attacks"; if the Barbarian happens to take someone from positive HP to on the ground in pieces in one attack, then that's part of the unfortunate reality of combat. Also, they're free to murder people who aren't humanoids or non-humanoids. (No killing Goblins or Minotaurs. Dragons, Undead and Demons are fair game.)

Vow of Nonviolence increases DC for all nonlethal abilities by 4 (only against humanoids and monstrous humanoids), but doesn't stack with Spell Focus. You can also use it with Stunning Fist, and Monks aren't inhibited by having to deal non-lethal damage. I wonder if there's anyone else who would benefit from this feat, besides Monks and casters. Knights, maybe? Does their challenge ability require a saving throw?

Test of Mettle does indeed. Knight with Vow of Peace is a pretty horrendous foe to throw at somebody. "Hey you there, Test of Mettle! Attack me! But if you do, you'll have to come close to do it. Hey look, an aura of calmness. And if you happen to make that save, guess what? Your weapon's going to shatter anyway!"

AvatarZero
2010-09-23, 08:06 PM
Test of Mettle does indeed. Knight with Vow of Peace is a pretty horrendous foe to throw at somebody. "Hey you there, Test of Mettle! Attack me! But if you do, you'll have to come close to do it. Hey look, an aura of calmness. And if you happen to make that save, guess what? Your weapon's going to shatter anyway!"

Always remember, just because you're Lawful Good doesn't mean you can't be a colossal pain in the rear. (Which is kind of the theme for this feat, isn't it?)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-23, 08:14 PM
Professional Theoretical Optimiser opinion: This feat is EXTREMELY strong. The DC's you can rig up with this feat make it hard for GODS to hate on you.

Professional Casual Gamer opinion: This feat is TERRIBLE. It will make your party HATE you, to the point where they will probably bludgeon your character about the head and face, stuff you in a chest, drive spikes through the chest, light the chest on fire, and then push it off a nearby cliff, through a Prismatic Sphere. Yes, its THAT frustrating. Friends don't let friends play with Vow of Non-violence and Vow of Peace.


+1. Seriously, VoNV is horrible for the party and incredibly unbalanced for your DM.

+2 definetly


In the tradition of killing monsters and looting their corpses, Vow of Peace/Nonviolence don't really fit into an adventuring party. They're still extremely strong feats mechanically, but they're also a fairly severe hindrance to the rest of the party. They probably work best for a Beguiler (PH2), who gets tons of enchantment and illusion spells along with some strong choices for dealing nonlethal damage. You could put Int and Cha high and intentionally make your Wisdom score abysmally low, with no ranks in Sense Motive. Have another character in the party with max ranks in Bluff, who always distracts your character or tricks him into getting out of sight so the rest of the party can execute the opponents instead of capturing them. "They wouldn't surrender! They said they would die fighting before they'd allow themselves to be captured! We had to do it!"
Quite amusing... half tempted to try it


I don't have a link to the Akbar picture but...


IT'S A TRAP!!! For everyone who hangs with you.


You will die alone, and incredibly non-violently. You will have seventy million cats and not be able to hit them with a rolled up scroll when they yak and poo on your bed... and they will... for eternity... They will follow to that cushy good aligned hell in the sky to torment you for alienating everyone you ever cared about.


But for a solo game go for it, and when you die and go to your preferred afterlife you can tell Gary Gygax just what you did to his nice little role-playing game.

Definetly, had someone playing a vow of non violency factotum in a party with TWO barbarians, a feral tiger claw based swordsage... have to say I am glad that game didn't last

Morithias
2010-09-24, 02:28 AM
Vow of peace is simply just not done right in my opinion when people use it. As a wise old genie once said "You'ld be surprised what you can live through".

You want to be a combat class like fighter? Note that you are immune to your own aura, grab a merciful sword and go to town.

You want to be a wizard or other spell caster? Summon monsters left right and center. Technically you are not doing the damage, and hey who cares if the monsters get negatives to their attacks they'll be gone at the end of the encounter.

Also please note that said -1 only applies if it is a "Helpless or defenseless foe". About the only thing you could ever call that in dnd is a non-spell caster without a weapon or someone who is out cold. Since we all know if you leave a spell caster alive and awake he'll likely just use a stilled fireball if you tie him up, and blow up the party. Face it, spell casters are never "helpless".

Prime32
2010-09-24, 08:51 AM
The interesting thing is that a character who has sworn themselves to a life of peace can still rip off the heads of warforged and necropolitans. Even if he is a warforged. I could see a squad of warforged programmed with that feat fighting in the Last War, as sort of a "First Law of Robotics".

Greenish
2010-09-24, 08:56 AM
The interesting thing is that a character who has sworn themselves to a life of peace can still rip off the heads of warforged and necropolitans.Or killoren, or elan, or half-giant, or a million other sentient species.

hamishspence
2010-09-24, 09:22 AM
Or killoren, or elan, or half-giant, or a million other sentient species.

That's Vow of Nonviolence, not Vow of Peace.

Vow of Nonviolence is a bit odd in that respect.

Vow of Peace makes it living creatures that you can't harm- but it still doesn't take into account good undead, and intelligent constructs.

A bit like Superman's code in that respect- Superman is perfectly happy to kill robots.

Vow of Nonviolence might be more like Batman's code- Batman in the comics is rather more free with killing "monsters" than humanoids.

Shenanigans
2010-09-24, 11:02 AM
The interesting thing is that a character who has sworn themselves to a life of peace can still rip off the heads of warforged and necropolitans. Even if he is a warforged. I could see a squad of warforged programmed with that feat fighting in the Last War, as sort of a "First Law of Robotics".I like that idea...Vow of Non-Violence...except against my own kind. :)

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-24, 01:08 PM
Isn't there an ability to use your body as a spell book>

It's in complete arcane, in the section on alternate spell-books. Unfortunately, it's still quite expensive, which makes it a no-no for VoP wizards.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-24, 01:29 PM
That's absolutely NOT how these vows work!

Your vows kick in when your allies try to kill a defensless opponent, torture him, or do any violent "evil act".

OF COURSE they can kill that Orc Barbarian who is shredding everyone and has no intention of surrendering.

God, the descriptions of the vows are clear: you're a pacifist, not a moron. That means if there's a way to solve the problem without violence, you will do it, and encourage your fellows do to the same.

That means: having a party which play a civilzed, and intelligent, way. If an evil wizard surrender, you're not some kind of psychopath who will behead him even though he abandonned fighting. If a Drider charges, you will NOT ask your fellows to spare him: if the guy want to kill you bad, your friends have no choice but defend themselves.

These two vows are totally playable, and absolutely not the way you're describing them since the beginning of this thread.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-24, 02:14 PM
I believe the Book of Exalted Deeds would disagree with you.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-24, 02:33 PM
That's absolutely NOT how these vows work!

Your vows kick in when your allies try to kill a defensless opponent, torture him, or do any violent "evil act".

That's VoPe. VoN prevents you from actually hurting people without using Nonlethal.


OF COURSE they can kill that Orc Barbarian who is shredding everyone and has no intention of surrendering.

Again, VoPe.


God, the descriptions of the vows are clear: you're a pacifist, not a moron. That means if there's a way to solve the problem without violence, you will do it, and encourage your fellows do to the same.

No, the feat clearly states that you are a moron. Because you are using the Vows in the BoED.


That means: having a party which play a civilzed, and intelligent, way. If an evil wizard surrender, you're not some kind of psychopath who will behead him even though he abandonned fighting. If a Drider charges, you will NOT ask your fellows to spare him: if the guy want to kill you bad, your friends have no choice but defend themselves.

Which runs contradictory to how everyone plays DnD: Like nomadic homicidal kleptomaniacs.


These two vows are totally playable, and absolutely not the way you're describing them since the beginning of this thread.

I'm not going to deny that these feats are playable. What I'm denying is the thought that these feats are balanced (especially for group play).





Really, the only time I will allow VoPe and VoN are if I'm conducting a solo campaign where the PC has Leadership to make up for a lack of party members, in which case the Cohort will act only as the Player wants him to, thus preventing inter-party strain.

hamishspence
2010-09-25, 11:35 AM
That's VoPe. VoN prevents you from actually hurting people without using Nonlethal.


People keep getting them the wrong way round. Vow of Nonviolence is much less restrictive than Vow of Peace- in the number of creature types that are covered by it.

Vow of Peace demands that you do no hit point damage, and non ability damage to all living creatures. Nor may you target them with death effects, disintegrate spells, or other spells that "have the immediate potential to cause death or great harm". You may do nonlethal damage.
It also states that you may not incapacitate enemies in order for your allies to kill them- if you incapacitate a creature, that creature must be taken prisoner.

Note that you cannot take Vow of Peace unless you have already taken Vow of Nonviolence. So, no matter what, anyone with Vow of Peace, has Vow of Nonviolence as well.

Vow of Nonviolence has a slightly different set of restrictions. It has the same restrictions for "humanoid or monstrous humanoid foes" (no doing real damage, no doing ability damage) and also mentions that spells that cause pain effects, or have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering or great harm, are forbidden.

It does penalize allies who slay helpless or defenseless foes within 120 ft of you. If you get them to promise not to slay the helpless creature, and they break that promise, they suffer the penalty even if you are much further away than this. And if you "leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies" you have broken your vow.
Special note- if you extract an oath of surrender or noninterference from a creature in exchange for its life- and it breaks the oath, you may allow your allies to deal with the creature as you see fit without breaking the vow.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-25, 11:52 AM
Vow of Peace:
The aura is mind-affecting, so if everyone in the party is immune (Mind-blank, racial feature) it only affects your opponents. Alternately, you're immune to your own aura, so you can release your party members from it by slapping them for 1 point of nonlethal damage. But yeah, it's a gamebreaker for the rest of the party without such exploits.

Vow of Nonviolence: Doesn't hurt much, except spellcaster-disposal. Knock them unconscious, strip them, dispel them until they no longer detect as magic, then tie them up, and use Dominate on them.

Vow of Poverty: Not so grand for most builds.

sonofzeal
2010-09-25, 11:54 AM
Hamish, as usual, has it right.

Having used both of those in actual game, they're not nearly so restrictive as people think. Nothing prevents you buffing allies, there's still tones of debuffs you can use on enemies, battlefield control is totally in, nonlethal damage is in, and in an RP-heavy game you'll easily be able to keep busy.

A VoPeace Beguiler would be able to use maybe 90% of his spell list, and probably be a more effective force overall than a conventional one.