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ffone
2010-09-23, 01:37 AM
(Actual situation about to come up in-game):

A pirate ship o' baddies is anchored off coast, further out than one of the PCs can Dimension Door. Party plans to sail out on a small craft into DD range, then DD to ship.

1. If the baddies on deck remain unaware of the approaching craft, when the party DDs, will the PCs (other than the DDer, perhaps) get a surprise round?

2. If the baddies become aware of the approaching small craft - and maybe guess it could be hostile, but don't know, and don't foresee a DD specifically - do the PCs get a surprise round? Does it matter whether they see the PCs vs just seeing the craft?

One Step Two
2010-09-23, 01:44 AM
I'd say spotted or not, everyone but the caster would have a surprise round. Unless the pirates have an arcane caster of some description, then there might be wards, or a telescope and a Spellcraft check (harder DC because of the lack of verbal components), then he has to alert his compatriats.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-09-23, 01:45 AM
Well I'd say they'd probably get a surprise round, suddenly appearing out of thin air is about as surprising as you can get. If their spotted on the approach a few rounds before the DD then the pirates should be battle ready and get to roll initiative normally.

Once they know someones coming they'll be scrambling to battle stations.

tyckspoon
2010-09-23, 01:52 AM
In the first situation, yes, absolutely- if you show up when the enemy doesn't know you're there, you get a surprise round. Textbook case. In the second situation, it's not so clear; I'd be inclined to grant one, because you just got attacked like 10 rounds before you actually expected to deal with the enemy, but I can see reasonable disagreement. Perhaps split the difference and give the pirates an Initiative penalty- they're expecting a fight, so they have weapons ready and they're not entirely surprised, but they aren't exactly at a combat-ready state and are a bit slow to react when the party shows up.

cupkeyk
2010-09-23, 02:32 AM
What level are they? Assuming they can DD, any self respecting bad guy of appropriate level should have Anticipate teleport cast on them everyday. The pirates all get a readied action against the party.

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 02:37 AM
Anticipate Teleport REALLY screws over Dim Door too, the way its worded.

Round 1: Cast Dim Door, get stuck in the aether for 1 round.
Round 2: Come out of the aether at the start of your turn. Dim Door's "end your turn" clause happens, and you are done.
Round 3: You can finally do stuff.

Contrast with Teleport:

Round 1: Cast Teleport, get stuck in the aether for 1 round.
Round 2: Come out of the aether at the start of your turn. You have your full round of actions.

So yea, it barely affects Teleport, but man does it screw over Dim Door.

Malbordeus
2010-09-23, 07:28 AM
not so sure of this one.

i mean the party dont know the exact locations of the pitates, and so are effectively "unaware" when teleporting in, the wizard would have used his supprise round to cast teleport...

maybe if the party used magical sensors first i'd give it to them, but not from a "look theres a boat... Dimension Door"

maysarahs
2010-09-23, 09:14 AM
I'd say that having seen the approaching boat (assuming they believe you are hostile) is the difference between being ready for a battle and caught unawares. People will have been alerted below decks so there would be more people with more weapons drawn, compared to a totally ambushed scenario, where your baddies are caught in the middle of mundane tasks

Tharck
2010-09-23, 01:06 PM
By RAW once the pirates know the PCs are there and a threat rounds begin. When rounds begin surprise round can no longer happen.

That said think about this scenario: PCs are fighting Wizard who is 700 feet away. He blasts the group, then teleports behind the PCs. Does he gain a surprise round? Do PCs have to roll spot checks? Are they flat-footed to him?

If magic is common in your campaign it would be reasonable to assume the pirates might antcipate a teleport/dimension door to their deck or a magical assault from the vessle from afar.

If magic is not common-place in your campaign it's reasonable to assume that if the PCs teleport/dimensional door on-deck that a new initiative begins (this is also stated in the DMG as a possible way to handle things) because everyone is reacting to new circumstances. The PCs's characters will have to orientate themselves to the new surroundings, pick a baddie, and attack. Their footing might be unsure going from a rickety little boat to a ship. The pirates might just get lucky and react quickly.

I'd have the PCs and pirates roll a new initiative and forgo surprise round if the Pirates were aware of their approach. Might consider giving the PCs a +2 circumstance bonus to the check and the pirates a -2 circumstance bonus.