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Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 02:06 AM
Hey y'all.

so, in the game I'm playing, there is a petition for me to play a rogue again. Apparently, I do it really well, and even though it slows down the dungeon crawl to an actual crawl (stopping at every door and trap searching) Everyone has realized the benefit of me playing a rogue. (which is half of why I switched to Ranger. Now they know what I brought to the table.)

anyway. I was thinking of a rogue shadowdancer thingy. go the whole spring attack route with a shortsword (or rapier) and buckler, and HiPS. I was planning on the whole Dungeonscape Penetrating Strike variant class feature deal for the rogue... Also, I need to keep Disable Device maxed, or close to it. Trapfinding... bleh. Whats the fastest way to get into shadowdancer? Rogue, I assume.

I am well aware it lacks... in well, a lot of things. Offensive power for one. Anything i can do to give it some kind of punch? Or something? There are casters to give me Invisibilty at some point... but they are evil, and role play that thoroughly, and do little to cooperate. Cliche, but gets the evil point across.

we are limited to two base classes, and one PrC. DM was nice and gave us 40! point buy. level 5-7 ish. (party just leveled, one guy's ECl is 8 ish, lowest is 5ish.)

Anyway. NO TOME OF BATTLE. DM doesnt like it. No non core classes, but have access to non core feats and whatnot.

alright everyone, thank you very much!

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 02:20 AM
Grrrr, I'm guessing the no-non-core classes keeps you out of Swashbuckler? Because Rogue4/Swashbuckler16 is a solid build with Complete Scoundrel's Daring Outlaw feat. Full sneak attack on a 19/20 BAB, d10 HD chassis is great fun.

Biggest thing you need straight up is Craven. Its a feat in Champions of Ruin. It allows you to add your CHARACTER level to damage when you sneak attack. This is a major increase in your damage output. Sneak Attack normally gives you 3.5 damage / 2 levels, or about 1.75 damage per level, average. Craven bumps that up to 2.75 damage per level, a 63% increase in your precision damage. This is VERY good. It comes with a -2 penalty on saves vs fear, but those don't come up too often unless you are hardcore into dragons and a handful of undead.

The next thing you need is a reliable way to trigger SA. There is a REALLY good guide floating around here for that, but the big winners tend to be things like Marbles (A&EG) which make your foe balance (anyone balancing without 5+ ranks in balance is flat footed), or making yourself invisible or effectively invisible. Ring of Blinking is the big winner here, although it comes with a 20% miss chance on your own attacks. You can get around this with Blindfighting + Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment (the latter 2 are in Complete Arcane). That means you enjoy 50% miss chance, and all attacks you make are as if you were invisible. You ARE invisible for all respects EXCEPT that you are targettable.

Yea, check out one of those guides. I know one is done by PId6, the other I'm not certain about. They'll give you a lot of details.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 02:37 AM
I could swing swashbuckler I am sure, however, swashbuckler does not let me keep maxed/near maxed ranks of disable device and search, which is why I am being asked to play a rogue again. A 3 level dip wouldnt be too bad though on that account, however.

the reason why I am interested in rogue shadowdancer is that we are playing through the Worlds Largest dungeon... during well over 90% of which there is shadowy illumination or full on darkness. Seems as though HiPS and Spring Attack would be happy times there, as well as darkvision at level 2 of shadowdancer.

Also, a two level dip into shadowdancer would not lower my disable device at all, since i could have 2.5 ranks in it still.

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 02:44 AM
If you are human, you have an option. There is a feat in Races of Destiny which is only available to humans and dopplegangers. Its called Able Learner. It allows you to buy skill ranks 1:1. Any skill ranks. That said, there are 2 things that inhibit you when buying cross class skills. The first is the cost per rank. Normally its 2 for any skill for the class you are taking NOW. Able Learner reduces this to 1. Secondly, your max ranks are limited to 1/2 normal if the skill has never been a class skill for ANY class you have. Luckily, with that 3-4 levels of Rogue, all of your Roguey skill maximums are set to level+3 FOREVER. So, what the feat does, effectively, is allow you to treat any skill that's EVER been a class skill as a class skill FOREVER.

Its only for humans, and only at 1st level, but MAN is it a good one. You'll lose 4 skill points per level with the Swash levels, but you'll be able to keep up most of your vital roguey skills up, especially if you have a decent Int score, which also synergizes with the Swashbuckler3 ability to apply Int to damage.

This would also allow you to keep your Search/Disable ranks up when you dip into Shadowdancer, since they aren't Shadowdancer skills.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-23, 02:45 AM
Anyway. NO TOME OF BATTLE. DM doesnt like it. No non core classes, but have access to non core feats and whatnot.

alright everyone, thank you very much!

No non-core classes, and you need a character with Trapfinding... That it's a semi-evil party is actually a good thing, assuming you can use variants of core classes. I'd normally suggest a Beguiler or Factotum, both are extremely fun but neither one is core.

Try playing a Kobold Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), using the Kobold domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) along with Trickery. He was raised to serve the kobold deity Kurtulmak, but secretly worships Vecna. Take the feat Whispered Secrets in Races of Destiny, it's in the initiate feats section on page 155-156. You may also want to trade your free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion in Complete Champion, which will significantly boost your combat ability. You could probably trade out your Lore ability for the Bardic Knack ACF in PH2, since it works exactly the same way as Bardic Knowledge. This is mostly a tricky caster type character, with tons of skills and spells so he's sure to make a considerable contribution.

You'll probably want DMM: Persist if you can take flaws, but I doubt it will be very necessary. You won't have any shield proficiencies or anything better than light armor, so wear Mithril Breastplate and luckily you can use a Mithril Heavy Shield without penalty. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend to cast Magic Vestment on each of those every day. If you don't get DMM: Persist, pick up Divine Spell Power instead to boost your caster level for your Magic Vestments and other spells, if you roll poorly and would take a penalty just don't cast anything that round. Be sure to have a Healing Belt from MIC so you won't have to use so many cure spells. Use a Wand of Lesser Vigor to heal yourself and the rest of the party between encounters, maybe make them each reimburse a portion of the cost or they won't get any uses from it. You should also consider picking up Gloves of the Starry Sky and Goggles of the Golden Sun from the Raiment of the Four set in MIC. Later on try to get the Belt of the Wide Earth, but not before you'd get 5th level spell slots. Also once you can afford it try to pick up a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed, as per the DMG it should cost only 9,000 gp. You can use the Bead of Karma to get +4 CL when casting your buffs each day, and the Bead of Healing is also extremely useful. If you have any left over gold buy some extra Healing Belts and sell them to other party members who don't have one once this character joins up, maybe even make a profit on that.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 02:55 AM
Keld Denar's advice about Craven is excellent. One important thing to note about Craven bonus damage is that it's a constant rather than dice. Only dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit. So forget the short sword and get a keen rapier for the 15-20 threat range.

I'm not so thrilled about the marbles advice. You'll need to spend a lot of actions: retrieve stored items, strew marbles. That only covers a single 5' square, so you've wasted at least a full round with no guaranteed benefit. You're in much better shape if you can get a reliable flanking partnership going with another member of your group.

Buy Mobility as an armor enhancement (Magic Item Compendium) which grants the feat. Do note that you can add armor enhancements to any item which grants an armor bonus, including Bracers of Armor (Arm slot) or robes (Body slot) using the Magic Item Compendium rules for armor bonuses (see pages 233-234) and the Arms and Equipment Guide rules for enhancements (see page 130). With 40 point buy you might consider cranking up Wisdom and getting a Monk's Belt. Then you'll want a non-armor way of getting armor bonuses.

A single level dip into Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is still a base class, just with a variant from Unearthed Arcana. That'll grant you Knowledge plus two other domains, which could be a big help for your Rogue/Shadowdancer abilities. Complete Champion has domain feats, which a Cleric can get by trading in domains. Lots of skill ranks will give you bonuses to hit and damage everything with Knowledge Devotion; that'll increase your offensive power. You can trade in the Travel domain for Travel Devotion, and get to move your speed as a swift action for 10 consecutive rounds. Get more daily uses of that from your Cleric turn/rebuke undead; a 12 CHA will keep you set for 3 combats daily. The Celerity domain gives you a +10' boost to speed, which is helpful for both Travel Devotion and Spring Attack. Plus you'll have the Cleric Grave Strike spell available for full sneak attack against all undead.

What a Rogue doesn't lack is tools for gaining extra income. While spellcasters are resting and preparing spells, you should take advantage of other earning opportunities. If you're not staying north of 130% of average Wealth by Level you're not trying hard enough. More and better gear can certainly improve your offensive power.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 02:59 AM
Ablelearner and Swhasbuckler isnt a bad idea... im effectively trading a feat slot previously (sorta) used on finesse to dip int a class with finesse for free, and INT to damage to boot.

DM changed it to 38 point buy (still better than standard by far) so what i have now is this:

STR 12
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

Is 14 INT worth the Swashbuckler-ness? Any headbands of intellect are going to be snatched up by the wizard first (as is his right, I suppose, it benefits me too) so Im getting a +2 damage from Insightful strike... Is swashbuckler still worth taking?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-23, 03:16 AM
The marbles trick isn't all that difficult. You can secure a single piece of cloth around a bunch of marbles and secure it to your belt as though it were a weapon-like object (Tanglefoot Bag for example). It takes only a move action, or no action as part of movement with at least a +1 BAB, to draw this weapon-like object, or with Quick-Draw it would be a free action. Since it's just a piece of cloth wrapped around the marbles it should open up and scatter them when dropped, and dropping an item is a free action. Spring attack toward the opponent drawing the marbles as you move, drop them into his square as a free action, attack the balancing opponent, and spring attack away, it's that simple.

Get TWF and use Claw Gloves from MIC, which allows you to attack twice on a charge or Spring Attack. With one more piece of that set (I'd get the Mantle) you can Rend for 3d6 extra damage if both claws hit. If you plan on getting all three pieces, it would be very fitting to use the Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) variant. You could also pick up Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and it would play very similarly to a Ranger.

ffone
2010-09-23, 03:53 AM
Keld Denar's advice about Craven is excellent. One important thing to note about Craven bonus damage is that it's a constant rather than dice. Only dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit. So forget the short sword and get a keen rapier for the 15-20 threat range.

I'm not so thrilled about the marbles advice. You'll need to spend a lot of actions: retrieve stored items, strew marbles. That only covers a single 5' square, so you've wasted at least a full round with no guaranteed benefit. You're in much better shape if you can get a reliable flanking partnership going with another member of your group.

Buy Mobility as an armor enhancement (Magic Item Compendium) which grants the feat. Do note that you can add armor enhancements to any item which grants an armor bonus, including Bracers of Armor (Arm slot) or robes (Body slot) using the Magic Item Compendium rules for armor bonuses (see pages 233-234) and the Arms and Equipment Guide rules for enhancements (see page 130). With 40 point buy you might consider cranking up Wisdom and getting a Monk's Belt. Then you'll want a non-armor way of getting armor bonuses.

A single level dip into Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is still a base class, just with a variant from Unearthed Arcana. That'll grant you Knowledge plus two other domains, which could be a big help for your Rogue/Shadowdancer abilities. Complete Champion has domain feats, which a Cleric can get by trading in domains. Lots of skill ranks will give you bonuses to hit and damage everything with Knowledge Devotion; that'll increase your offensive power. You can trade in the Travel domain for Travel Devotion, and get to move your speed as a swift action for 10 consecutive rounds. Get more daily uses of that from your Cleric turn/rebuke undead; a 12 CHA will keep you set for 3 combats daily. The Celerity domain gives you a +10' boost to speed, which is helpful for both Travel Devotion and Spring Attack. Plus you'll have the Cleric Grave Strike spell available for full sneak attack against all undead.

What a Rogue doesn't lack is tools for gaining extra income. While spellcasters are resting and preparing spells, you should take advantage of other earning opportunities. If you're not staying north of 130% of average Wealth by Level you're not trying hard enough. More and better gear can certainly improve your offensive power.


Ah, that's quite clever - wearing bracers of armor and regular armor just to get two sets of base-price-bonus armor abilities at cost (A+1)^2 + (B+1)^2 instead of (A+B+1)^2.

What are the 'opportunities for extra income' you speak of?

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 03:54 AM
Cloistered Cleric isnt exactly fitting my idea for this character...

As for the Mobility enhancement, I like it, and have used it before, but this DM says that I need the actual feat to qualify for the class... He says that a piece of armor shouldn't qualify me for a PrC, even if I did pay for it out of my pocket. I see where he coming from, and agree, I suppose. good advice though.

As for garb of the hunting cat set... Damn. I wish i had noticed those while playing my last scout. He would've appreciated the claw attacks and rend... However.

my current DM says, normally, he would allow it, but for such sets he would like me to undertake a quest instead of being able to buy such rare items. Which, we are incapable of doing, due to the fact that we are stuck in a dungeon that we can't escape. I cannot buy items that have back stories/histories, I guess. I can have a Sword of Subtlety, or a Dagger of Venom, but no artifacts, and nothing thats part of a set. lame.

I am going to remember that marble trick though, especially because we have Handy Haversacks for free. Move action to pull something out, and its always on top. :smallamused:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-23, 04:55 AM
First of all, magic item sets are not rare! Just look at the DC 15 lore for the Garb of the Hunting Cat, an entire cult was outfitted with the complete set, so there were hundreds if not thousands in existence before the cult was defeated and the sets were recovered and sold. Yes, exactly as the lore states in the book, the sets were sold off so they should definitely be out there on the market available for purchase! Just having one piece is not too much to ask, and it will give a character knowledge of the set and a desire to seek out other pieces, hence giving the DM a good adventure hook.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 05:15 AM
I'll just point out that Dungeonscape gives both Rangers and Barbarians an ACF for finding and disabling traps.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 05:44 AM
Ah, that's quite clever - wearing bracers of armor and regular armor just to get two sets of base-price-bonus armor abilities at cost (A+1)^2 + (B+1)^2 instead of (A+B+1)^2.
I wouldn't suggest regular armor at all, because that has problems:

The Rogue's eventually going to exceed the Maximum DEX bonus allowed by any regular armor.
If you wear armor you can't get the bonus to AC from the Monk's Belt.


What are the 'opportunities for extra income' you speak of? Depends on your setting and inclination. There's second story work, free-lance bodyguarding for people attending fancy dress parties, security assessment, and sneaky surveillance.

I've found that playing an Elf Rogue provides several advantages:

Racial DEX bonus.
Low-light vision so you can function at night.
Trancing for 4 hours leaves you an extra 5 hours nightly (4 more hours when your party spellcasters must rest, and 1 hour when they're doing spell prep). 35 hours a week is a lot of time to have for solo earning.

Darkfire
2010-09-23, 06:01 AM
What are the 'opportunities for extra income' you speak of?
Any trip to a settlement should provide an opportunity for an enterprising rogue to expand their wealth whether through pick-pocketing, burgling, conning, extorting or good old fashioned mugging.

Then there's the stuff which is actually legal to consider: paid work, crafting, haggling, performing.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 02:47 PM
Again, i am playing through the Worlds Largest Dungeon with this character. markets do not exist, and the DM wont let me start with the set, or pieces of it, which is his call, not mine.

As for side work... Im in the Worlds Largest Dungeon. There is no sidework. Unless stealing off while others sleep and looting rooms before they awake is sidework... Which i might consider.

I am aware of the Ranger and Barbarian's trapfinding alternate abilities... Especially since they both come from the Dungeonscape book, which I am looking at for Penetrating Strike.

However, the party needs even more of a skill monkey than the Ranger will allow for, especially since a trapfinding Ranger can find the trap... but cannot necessarily disable it.

so again, I am looking primarily at Rogue, with maybe a 2 level shadowdancer dip, and possibly a 3 level swashbuckler dip. Any good build ideas for that, feat wise, skill trick wise, item wise?

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 03:14 PM
Im in the Worlds Largest Dungeon. There is no sidework. Unless stealing off while others sleep and looting rooms before they awake is sidework... Which i might consider.
That's exactly what your skills and the extra time would allow under these circumstances. This will give you first crack at items that could give your character an advantage, or at least more stuff to trade when your party comes across something you really want.

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 03:23 PM
Yea, cause stealing from your party is ALWAYS a good idea. Especially when your goal is to pawn an otherwise useful item for something for yourself. Especially when you are often relying on these schmucks in part for your survival.

Yea, VERY good idea. This might get you booted from the group OOC, and lynched by the group IC.

"But I'm a Rogue! Rogue's steal things". My response? "You're also an ass, and asses get kicked. Reroll a character who's not an ass, or find a new group."

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 03:39 PM
Yea, cause stealing from your party is ALWAYS a good idea.
There's absolutely no stealing going on here. If you spend your own spare time and take all the risks yourself you've earned all the rewards. What are you supposed to do, take up basket weaving while the spellcasters are resting and preparing?

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 03:41 PM
well, we have an evil sorcerer, and an evil wizard. Both have done similar, if not worse things ( like intentionally doing nothing in combat, Using a skeletal minion to block us in a room with no way out, Trying to steal items casting Darkness on a good cleric (which led the cleric to stumble into a fiendish owlbear, alone.... guess who lived? not the cleric), and splitting off from the main party, and running helter skelter down a long corridor while we fight things and try to catch up.)

Yeah, I think Im alright compared to these guys. Thus far, I've probably been the most pro party person playing.

Keld Denar
2010-09-23, 03:48 PM
There's absolutely no stealing going on here. If you spend your own spare time and take all the risks yourself you've earned all the rewards.

Cause that takes up a lot of extra DM time, and maybe your DM doesn't feel like hand tailoring you a solo scouting mission every time the party rests (resting which takes 0 time out of character, while your solo mission takes time away from the other players). Best case scenario, you wander into the next encounter, designed for the whole party, solo and you find yourself unable to hide/run away/whatever. Have fun explaining to the other players that you are now Dread Wraith spawn.

Rule 1 of adventuring: don't split the party.
Rule 2 of adventuring: DON'T SPLIT THE FRAKING PARTY!

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 04:30 PM
Cause that takes up a lot of extra DM time, and maybe your DM doesn't feel like hand tailoring you a solo scouting mission every time the party rests (resting which takes 0 time out of character, while your solo mission takes time away from the other players).
You're giving metagame justifications, not anything that's intrinsic to the scenario or the character. There's no reason that metagame nonsense should keep a Rogue from acquiring extra resources while waiting around for spellcasters. And maybe this particular DM does feel like running a straightforward solo mission every so often. Please don't disregard reasonable in-character behavior just because it doesn't suit your preferred play style constraints.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 05:24 PM
I dont like splitting the party either, but everyone else seems to be doing it, so if I do, eh. The DM doesnt care. We'll see how it goes.

Mayhaps, however, we ought to return to the premise of the thread... help on building a decent rogue with Hide in Plain Sight and a maxed/near maxed Disable Device and Search.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 05:52 PM
An Idea might be Wilderness Rogue.... can get HiPS at level 13, as long as I take camouflage at level 10 (and camouflage seems to kinda suck)... would prefer it sooner, if anyone has any ideas....

Greenish
2010-09-23, 06:07 PM
(and camouflage seems to kinda suck)...The ranger HiPS would be rather unimpressive without Camouflage.

That said, how "natural" are your surroundings in a dungeon?

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-23, 06:22 PM
oh, good point... its the ranger HiPS... eh. forgot about that.

What about the Dark Creature Template from Tome of Magic? good, bad, worth it?

lsfreak
2010-09-23, 06:37 PM
Bad. It still requires you to have cover or concealment. Shadowdancer doesn't, as is therefore much better.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 06:46 PM
Bad. It still requires you to have cover or concealment. Shadowdancer doesn't, as is therefore much better.This, pretty much. The two poor feats (and one decent one) are worth it, I should say.

So, in the end, Rogue7/Shadowdancer1/RogueX is pretty decent. Three levels of Swashbuckler do work if you have decent Int, but you can do without.

Though if you have good int (and human), Able Learner & Daring Outlaw to Swashbuckler give you better BAB and HD, while allowing you to keep the central skills up. 3 levels of rogue, 1 of shadowdancer, rest of Swashbuckler also means you're at full BAB-1, assuming partial BAB.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-23, 08:40 PM
So, in the end, Rogue7/Shadowdancer1/RogueX is pretty decent.
If you don't have darkvision through some other means I'd suggest getting the 2nd level of Shadowdancer. You can trade your Rogue evasion for Spell Reflection (Complete Mage) and Rogue uncanny dodge for Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic), so you get some useful abilities instead of duplication. Uncanny Bravery is a good counter to the fear sensitivity caused by Craven.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-23, 09:18 PM
You're starting higher than 1st level, just go all-out and take the Shadow Creature template in Lords of Madness. It's a +2 LA, but you get Fast Healing and Shadow Blend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm). I'd put it on a Whisper Gnome, and get the feats Extra Silence and Silencing Strike in Races of Stone. Maybe go into Assassin, or better yet go Rogue 4/ Psion 1/ Psychic Assassin (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) and get Mind Cripple asap. A single full attack with TWF with that can outright disable half the creatures in the game. You'll need to spend your Psion 1 bonus feat on Practiced Manifester to qualify for that, easy enough. I'd start out with the Psion level, and be sure to get Control Light. Egoist, Nomad, or Seer would probably be the best discipline choices.

You can get someone to cast (or hire an NPC spellcaster) (Extended) Deeper Darkness on a small pendant you wear, and you can put it in your mouth to block its effect. If it's too bright for you to benefit from your Shadow Blend ability, you can 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out, so it returns to hanging around your neck and plunges the room into darkness.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-24, 03:55 PM
As good as Psion may sound, I stil can't use non core classes... such as psionic characters.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-24, 04:12 PM
Hey y'all.



Anyway. NO TOME OF BATTLE. DM doesnt like it. No non core classes, but have access to non core feats and whatnot.

alright everyone, thank you very much!

Have you considered Magic of incarnum? Shape soulmeld gives you a soulmeld. They give useful benefits (more if have essentia, but still).

true_shinken
2010-09-24, 04:22 PM
Shadowdancer is not a bad class per se... but it is terrible for a Rogue. Most defensive abilities you get from Shadowdancer you already get from Rogue.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-24, 04:28 PM
You can get someone to cast (or hire an NPC spellcaster) (Extended) Deeper Darkness on a small pendant you wear, and you can put it in your mouth to block its effect. If it's too bright for you to benefit from your Shadow Blend ability, you can 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out
Whether you can keep the effect blocked when you talk, breathe, and so on is going to be a matter of individual DM discretion, as is the matter of whether spitting is a free action.

I suggest instead you avoid this ambiguity and get the Deeper Darkness cast on dagger tip. Draw it from its sheath as a free action with a normal move, and either wield it or drop it normally ─ no saliva needed. :smallwink:


Shadowdancer is not a bad class per se... but it is terrible for a Rogue. Most defensive abilities you get from Shadowdancer you already get from Rogue. Really not so terrible, because there are ACFs that you can use to avoid duplication. I've already mentioned Uncanny Bravery as a useful replacement for uncanny dodge, and Spell Reflection in place of evasion. The defensive roll, improved evasion, and slippery mind Shadowdancer abilities are all options for a Rogue (and personally I prefer Skill Mastery and Crippling Strike instead).

You gotta wake up and smell the supplements!

true_shinken
2010-09-24, 04:41 PM
Really not so terrible, because there are ACFs that you can use to avoid duplication. I've already mentioned Uncanny Bravery as a useful replacement for uncanny dodge, and Spell Reflection in place of evasion. The defensive roll, improved evasion, and slippery mind Shadowdancer abilities are all options for a Rogue (and personally I prefer Skill Mastery and Crippling Strike instead).

You gotta wake up and smell the supplements!
You are correct, specially in the OPs environment, restricted to core classes. If he really can take those ACFs, then it should work pretty well.