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Mangles
2010-09-23, 08:35 AM
Since they are notoriously the worst race to choose in all but a few builds would changing their racial bonus to enchantment saves to this unbalance them? Would it even make them competitive against the other SRD races?

+2 racial saving throw bonus against spells and spell like abilities

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-09-23, 09:02 AM
Since they are notoriously the worst race to choose in all but a few builds would changing their racial bonus to enchantment saves to this unbalance them? Would it even make them competitive against the other SRD races

...um, what?

It's fairly universally accepted that both Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are worse choices than Elves for about 90% of classes. Elves may not be as powerful as, say, Humans or Dwarves, but they're not the race most in need of a re-working.

That said, this ability steps on the Dwarves ability of the same type, which I don't think is a good idea. Elves, if you give them anything, should be getting something unique.

Mangles
2010-09-23, 09:12 AM
sorry am used to playing with all races as options and elves pretty much get made fun of every time.

In any case what is it that elves and half elves need to make them as good as humans/dwarfs.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-09-23, 09:18 AM
In any case what is it that elves and half elves need to make them as good as humans/dwarfs.

Depends on your design goals, honestly. I can think of roughly half a dozen elf re-works off the top of my head, each aimed at representing a different aspect of elven nature (or my perception of elven nature).

grimbold
2010-09-23, 09:20 AM
i think that would improve them a bit. The thing is that most experienced players never play elves because they basically get 1 hp less than anyone else per level. However have you tried elf subraces?
gray elf?
aquatic elf?
they are stronger elf variants

Serpentine
2010-09-23, 09:29 AM
Since they are notoriously the worst race to choose in all but a few builds would changing their racial bonus to enchantment saves to this unbalance them?:confused:
This is the first time I've even heard this claim.

DireSockPuppet
2010-09-23, 09:36 AM
Depends on your design goals, honestly. I can think of roughly half a dozen elf re-works off the top of my head, each aimed at representing a different aspect of elven nature (or my perception of elven nature).

I'm with Djinn here. Elves vary loads across fantasy, work out how you want them to be, and modify them to fit that. For example, in my campaign, I wanted elves to be more militant, and I didn't fancy having them trance instead of sleeping, so I swapped immunity to sleep effects for a +1 bonus to initiative (representing that they are lightning fast)

Mangles
2010-09-23, 05:03 PM
Maybe its just the classes I play. I tend to rely a lot on handbooks to help me out as I'm fairly new to d&d, out of the four I looked up only 1 had anything nice to say about elves and two of the others tore the race to shreds.

I think Elves should be very nature and ranged attack focused so hows this instead of the standard stats.

+2 wis, -2 str

The wis bonus helps them become druids and rangers and removing the con penalty should keep their HP up. They also loose str to make them more ranged focused

I'm also tempted to give them scent that works by "smelling" the lingering of auras but im not sure if it would be giving them too much

SoD
2010-09-23, 05:13 PM
Maybe its just the classes I play. I tend to rely a lot on handbooks to help me out as I'm fairly new to d&d, out of the four I looked up only 1 had anything nice to say about elves and two of the others tore the race to shreds.

*stuff*

What calsses are you used to playing? IF you're a typical barbarian beserker fighter etc. then you might be in the wrong race, powerhousewise. What's your group like? Because if your gaming group is more roleplay focused than rollplay focused, you shouldn't mind so much.

Andion Isurand
2010-09-23, 06:13 PM
Race Revisions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164119)

I made a similar revision to elves, except I confined it the following...

+2 racial bonus on saving throws against all disease (including magical disease), paralysis and mind-affecting spells or effects.

I figured that elves should enjoy better health as far as disease goes...
the resistance to paralysis comes from the immunity to paralysis caused by ghouls.... which they lose.
I also removed the free search checks they get for secret doors within 5 ft.

Mangles
2010-09-24, 08:58 AM
Is giving out 1st level class features too much. Such as rage 1/day or favored enemy, or smite evil 1/day

DireSockPuppet
2010-09-24, 09:54 AM
Yes definitely! :smalleek: Racial bonuses tend to be quite weak, but flavourful.

jiriku
2010-09-24, 10:07 AM
I give half-orcs the human bonus feat and half-elves the human bonus skill points. My players now consider both these races to be viable options.

A good fix if you want more martial elves is to allow them to treat all exotic weapons with the word 'elf' or 'elven' in the title as martial weapons, and to slightly beef up the stats on the rather lame elven lightblade, thinblade, and courtblade. This gives them a natural opening to take Weapon Finesse and capitalize on their Dex bonus with a solid finessable weapon.

mucat
2010-09-24, 10:18 AM
i think that would improve them a bit. The thing is that most experienced players never play elves because they basically get 1 hp less than anyone else per level.

If they are experienced players, why would they have trouble compensating for that constitution penalty?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-09-24, 10:24 AM
If they are experienced players, why would they have trouble compensating for that constitution penalty?

Agreed. -20 hit points at level 20 is, for most players I know, something basically meaningless. Just like nobody takes Improved Toughness as a feat, most people (in my experience) don't mind a -2 Con here and there.

Latronis
2010-09-24, 04:34 PM
Agreed. -20 hit points at level 20 is, for most players I know, something basically meaningless. Just like nobody takes Improved Toughness as a feat, most people (in my experience) don't mind a -2 Con here and there.

Don't forget -1 to concentration checks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andion Isurand
2010-09-24, 06:15 PM
maybe my elf revision should include a +2 bonus to concentration...

lesser_minion
2010-09-25, 07:16 AM
Mechanically, elves are not the worst race out there -- they're weaker than humans, but that's not exactly unusual.

A lot of portrayals of elves in fantasy settings do come across as absolutely insufferable, however. If you want to 'fix' elves, I'd suggest coming up with a portrayal that isn't so bad, and adjust the mechanics to fit.

Note that another issue is that elves tend to get pushed as 'the best wizards' even though halfling is a better choice.

Joshinthemosh
2010-09-26, 12:48 PM
I give half-orcs the human bonus feat and half-elves the human bonus skill points. My players now consider both these races to be viable options.

A good fix if you want more martial elves is to allow them to treat all exotic weapons with the word 'elf' or 'elven' in the title as martial weapons, and to slightly beef up the stats on the rather lame elven lightblade, thinblade, and courtblade. This gives them a natural opening to take Weapon Finesse and capitalize on their Dex bonus with a solid finessable weapon.

I'll give you the Lightblade and Thinblade as basically scimitars and falchions with a feat requirement but the Courtblade is a solid weapon (1d10 18-20/X2). What are beefing it up to? But you're absoluetly right, if it says "Elven" in the title it should be a martial weapon.

DireSockPuppet
2010-09-26, 03:33 PM
A good fix if you want more martial elves is to allow them to treat all exotic weapons with the word 'elf' or 'elven' in the title as martial weapons, and to slightly beef up the stats on the rather lame elven lightblade, thinblade, and courtblade. This gives them a natural opening to take Weapon Finesse and capitalize on their Dex bonus with a solid finessable weapon.

I haven't come across these. Which book are they in?

Joshinthemosh
2010-09-26, 04:07 PM
I haven't come across these. Which book are they in?

Races of the Wild pg 165. The Lightblade is 1d6 18-20/x2, the Thinblade 1d8 18-20/x2 and the Courtblade is 1d10 18-20/x2.

ericgrau
2010-09-27, 04:24 PM
Ya half-elves and half-orcs are the least popular, and really I think half-elves are the only one that got shafted if you're limited to PHB races. The elven con penalty does hurt a great deal but you can get around it by playing an archer, a ray caster, or a rogue. Their bonuses to secret doors, search, listen and spot make them excellent rogues. Maybe they aren't the most popular option but they aren't the worst either.

I would not give a race a penalty to a physical stat and a bonus to a mental stat or vis versa. That's just asking for easy min-maxing to make the penalty meaningless. Though that it is why dwarves are one of the top races. OTOH while con is the most popular stat it is still only the secondary stat for every class. For the same reason half-orcs aren't all that bad vs. other PHB options. Ya they get shafted in everything else but stats, but if you're building a tripper or grappler there's not much else available without searching through other books. I'd avoid boosting a mental stat and lowering a physical any other stat even more, as that race becomes the automatic choice for casters.

I'd look into boosting half-elves if anything.

Morph Bark
2010-09-27, 07:17 PM
Races of the Wild pg 165. The Lightblade is 1d6 18-20/x2, the Thinblade 1d8 18-20/x2 and the Courtblade is 1d10 18-20/x2.

Praise the Lawd that my crit-happy player hasn't found out yet. More reason for him to play elves.

ShiningStarling
2010-09-28, 05:26 PM
Me and my group, being Tolkien fans, happen to find the minus to Con rediculous. How we compensate is change the abilities to -2 strength +2 choice, or the DM can fix the choice.