3.5 without the core classes: ALmost sorta balanced?

[Esser-Z]

Thinking about this, since a guy's starting up a no core (PHB1) classes and also No Artificer/Archivist game.

You still get casters from Wu Jen and, uh... the various other ones. I know there're divine ones, so heals are doable (not to mention Incarnum and Martial Adept and so forth healing). You lose the most powerful classes and also some of the weakest...

What does the Playground think? I know it sounds FUN, at least...

[Greenish]

Restoring non-HP damage and conditions becomes a bit harder without cleric, and then there still are classes which are very weak. (And a few that can be too strong, that is, tier 2.)

Oh, and no bard. :smallfrown:

[DragoonWraith]

I'm actually working on a project that replaces the PHB classes with counterparts that take cues from later (better written and balanced) books (which is pretty much all of them, but mainly Bo9S, MoI, PHB2, and ToM) for exactly that reason. Some things from Core are hard-ish to do without, especially the feats since they're often requirements for things.

[Telonius]

Are you considering Psionics core?

Regardless, you still do have a few pockets of serious power (Favored Soul) and it's still possible to break the game. As already mentioned, status ailments can become a lot more devastating. You're likely in a lower-magic world, so monsters in general will be more dangerous (given less access to equipment). You'll have to take a very close look at CR; compare the monster to what you know the party is actually able to do. At least a few iconic items (Holy Avenger) will poof out of existence since no one has the prerequisite spells to create them.

But in general? Yeah, I suppose it would be more balanced.

[Esser-Z]

Well, I'm not talking dropping core FEATS and spells and such, just the classes. And, yeah, losing bard is a big hurt--he's not really replaceable and is actually a pretty decently done class.

[Duke of URL]

Bard, Rogue, and Barbarian are pretty good classes, on the whole. The former two are somewhat replaceable (Factotum and Scout) and Warblades will sub for Barbarians nicely.

Plenty of full casters still out there, including Favored Soul, Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman, Beguiler, Warmage, etc., along with partial casters like Duskblade, Hexblade, and Spellthief.

[Yuki Akuma]

Out of the six most broken classes, three are non-core (and in many ways the three non-core ones are worse, due to having larger spell lists). The single weakest class (Truenamer) is also non-core. So, uh, no, not really.

[Person_Man]

Someone on this board uses a system where Tier 1-2 is banned, Tier 3 classes are played normally, and Tier 4-6 classes are given DM approved gestalt with Tier 4-6 classes. So a typical party might be a Beguiler, Dragonfire Adept, Healer//Paladin, and Knight//Soulknife.

I usually just ask Tier 1-2 classes to tone down their spell selection, and give more useful/targeted treasure to Tier 4-6 classes (grafts, ancestral weapons, Item Familiars, etc). Most balance issues can be solved just by talking about them with your players.

[SurlySeraph]

Out of the six most broken classes, three are non-core (and in many ways the three non-core ones are worse, due to having larger spell lists). The single weakest class (Truenamer) is also non-core. So, uh, no, not really.

Well, he said no Artificer or Archivist, and presumably he won't allow Spell-to-Power Erudite either. And I presume his group knows better than to try Truenamers or Samurai.

The remaining full casters will probably still be stronger than the melee and skill-oriented classes, on average, but the degree of difference will be more reasonable.

[Myth]

Warlocks and Dread Necromancers will still be 200 times better then "i hit him" classes. Not to mention things like Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant.

[DragoonWraith]

Out of the six most broken classes, three are non-core (and in many ways the three non-core ones are worse, due to having larger spell lists). The single weakest class (Truenamer) is also non-core. So, uh, no, not really.
See, to my thinking, looking at the Core, you have three classes that are arguably in the bottom 5, worst PC classes in the game (only CW Samurai and Truenamer are Tiered lower than Fighter, Monk, and Paladin, and that's including all of the stuff that Fighters, Monks, and Paladins get outside of Core, which tend to help a lot), while another three classes are in the top 5 classes in the game (only Archivists and Artificers are Tiered the same; StP Erudite is a stupid variant and I'm not counting it here - call it top 6 if it makes you feel better, but then you should probably include Arcane Swordsage and call it 7). The power disparity in Core is so immense, there's no competition for it anywhere else in 3.5. No other book has two classes as different in power level as Wizard vs. Monk.

[Urpriest]

Warlocks and Dread Necromancers will still be 200 times better then "i hit him" classes. Not to mention things like Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant.

How are you a playable Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant if nobody can cast PaO?

(I suppose high level warlocks can still make PaO items, but it's rather far-fetched)

And Warlock and Dread Necromancer are largely balanced with the competent "I hit him" classes like the ToB ones.

[Myth]

How are you a playable Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant if nobody can cast PaO?

(I suppose high level warlocks can still make PaO items, but it's rather far-fetched)

And Warlock and Dread Necromancer are largely balanced with the competent "I hit him" classes like the ToB ones.

Aye for combat, the Crusaders and Swordsages will do fine. But utility and versatility is still on the caster's side.

I can't check the books atm, isn't PaO on the Dread Necromancer list? If not, the Warlock can UMD a scroll or two. OP said the spells themselves are not banned, so the scrolls must exist.

[Curmudgeon]

I can't check the books atm, isn't PaO on the Dread Necromancer list? If not, the Warlock can UMD a scroll or two. OP said the spells themselves are not banned, so the scrolls must exist.
That conclusion doesn't follow. If there are no casters with those spells on their lists then there's nobody to create such scrolls. You would need a spellcaster to follow the usual rules regarding spell research to get over that hurdle, and the DM completely controls whether that happens.

[Greenish]

Aye for combat, the Crusaders and Swordsages will do fine. But utility and versatility is still on the caster's side.

I can't check the books atm, isn't PaO on the Dread Necromancer list?No. The fixed list casters (Beguiler-like, if you will) have very tight spell lists. Beguiler has perhaps the best utility of them due to doubling as a skillmonkey, but still won't hugely overpower, say, swordsage.

Tier 2 doesn't really leave tier 3 (or even tier 4) to dust when it comes to utility. Of course, tiers 5-6 will still be rather poor classes.

[Zaydos]

You still have some disparity (in addition to Truenamer and Samurai there's also the tier 5 divine mind, soulborn, and soul knife which are as bad or worse than anything in Core), but the top power levels are Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman (who I've seen argued for tier 1 or 2). Wu Jen can know all their spells but their spell list is much, much more limited than the Tier 1 classes. Favored Soul has full access to their spell list but only so many spells known limiting them severely (just like sorcerers) but they can maintain the full clerical healing if they want to. Spirit Shaman has the best aspects of prepared and spontaneous casting from the entire druid spell list.

It would probably be more balanced than Core; although just banning Tier 1s could do that.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, it really does nothing to improve balance.

You can still do the single most broken trick in the game, psion time manipulation/save game.

You would do more for balance by just removing Astral Projection, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop, Foresight, and Disjunction.