PDA

View Full Version : Tier 1`s in your game, do they go boom?



Sewercop
2010-09-23, 02:11 PM
In response to this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9411165#post9411165 do your tier 1 one casters go kaboom with fireballs and similar in average? Most tier 1`s I have seen in game do not break the fabric of reality at all. Clerics tend to heal,wizards go boom,druids go bear, and so on.

Being tier 1 means you can do almost anything if you want, but how many actually see the batman,codzilla and theyre likes in play?

Most people(it seems) tend to not know of the inherent powers of the classes and plays them as healbots,buffers etc,

So I ask you guys, when you look back at the tier 1`s you have seen in play, how do they tend to be?

The ones I have seen, have not broken the game too much. I have seen clerics reroll fighters because they suck at fighting. But i also have seen some powerhouses.
How are yours?

Mystic Muse
2010-09-23, 02:16 PM
Yes, because getting a small amount of bat poop, sulfur, and saying a couple of nonsense words to create a fireball isn't reality breaking at all.:smalltongue:

the one (artificer) in my game is fine. He doesn't really break anything.

Dralnu
2010-09-23, 02:18 PM
The only time a tier 1 class upset the game balance was because of me. I had just found out that the internet had guides on how to optimize DnD characters and had my specialist conjurer wizard end each encounter in the session with excessive use of Glitterdust.

After that session I realized that cheesing my unexperienced DM's encounters was not fun and never did it again.

Other than that mistake, no, tier 1 classes never break them game in my RL group. It's mostly an internet / forums thing. Druids do fine right beside duskblades and everyone is merry.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-23, 02:19 PM
the one (artificer) in my game is fine. He doesn't really break anything.

But that makes sense.

Because he's making the sense.





My typical RL players have yet to find the full potential of BC. As a result, they stick to blasting and are usually flabbergasted when I actually use casters efficiently.

jiriku
2010-09-23, 02:21 PM
Until a few years ago, I never really understood the whole linear warriors, quadratic wizards thing. Then I played high-level wizards in two different campaigns. Both times I broke the campaign in half just by tinkering around with the spells and trying things to see what I could do. A lot of it depends on the playstyle of the user. I've seen people who don't have an analytical mindset come in with plenty of D&D experience and play brutally powerful builds, and yet fail to achieve much and even be a drag on the party. I've also seen people who are analytical and inquisitive like myself create PCs that are absolute beasts just by tinkering around, even if the player has no experience with tabletop gaming at all.

Urpriest
2010-09-23, 02:21 PM
Druids going bear are being CoDzilla, that's the minimal definition of CoDzilla. If you haven't noticed, your "I am bear" druid is most likely doing everything the fighter does, but better. This happens even when nobody is doing any optimizing. For example, I ran a low-level campaign in a setting where dinosaurs were relatively common. The druid picked a swindlespitter, then upgraded when he could to a fleshraker. These were picked because they were cool dinos, not for power. The swindlespitter could neuter an enemy every fight, while the fleshraker rapidly became the party's MVP, eclipsing all the actual players. I shudder to think what would have happened once the druid gained wildshape.

Zaydos
2010-09-23, 02:21 PM
Mine have been typically low level wizards, a high level game where they still played blasters, me (druid/wizard buff and blast; clerical heal-bot; game breaking power because the DM told me to make him powerful), poorly built and poorly played blasters, wizard/druid (buff and blast; still effective with Animal Comp), and a druid (self and animal companion buffs, didn't need much optimization to be solo-ing higher CR encounters).

Except for when I was a PC and the DM enlisted me to help optimize the other PCs and the DMPC the Tier 1s haven't been game breakers. When he did... everyone was a bit of a game breaker.

So yeah mostly blasters. How my players have traditionally played wizards (and they don't play clerics) they'd have done better playing sorcerers. And druids... they can shatter the game easy.

Edit: Note the druid/wizard's animal companion (a tiger) was the MVP for the party. There were arguments over who was the strongest party member and the tiger tended to win them.

Tyger
2010-09-23, 02:23 PM
No, generally speaking our T1s don't break the game for the rest of us. They could, but they chose not to.

Our current party has a heavily optimized Cleric, a basic kit Druid, a Crusader and a Bard. The one that is probably "breaking" things the most is the bard (played by me) and that's only because I am making everyone else so much more powerful. The Druid is rarely even wild-shaping, and usually just casting a few staple spells and then shooting things with his bow. The Cleric is sticking (the little we've seen, its a new character) to melee, and the Crusader is doing just fine.

Our Wizard (when we had one) was a fan of Fireball and Magic Missile, though he did make liberal use of the Fly spell as well. He took Scrying as his first level 4 spell... 'nough said.

I am willing to bet that most games run that way - the players of the T1s play by gentleman's agreement not to ruin the fun for everyone. Though I am equally certain people will pop on after me and tell their horror stories about T1s ruining their game for the rest of the group. :)

jseah
2010-09-23, 02:24 PM
I have a tendency to be pretty standoffish in D&D combat. There have been times when I rolled a character "not meant for combat" and virtually all my characters have some manner of doing that. (except that one rogue...)
Support characters are my shtick. Often, the most important spells I have are Teleport and various divinations. Mind-affecting spells are also kind of fun to screw around with if there's lots of humanoids around.
I haven't had the chance to finish games I play in (they always end prematurely), but I keep a folder of notes for each game. Which should indicate how complex the schemes you can run simply by being everywhere at the same time.

Apart from me, Tier 1/2/3s are pretty much exclusively played in the group I am familiar with. Everyone's a caster unless they're feeling contrary.
Perhaps it's because my group's pretty familiar with CharOp, and that when I DM I'm pretty lenient on the houserules. Character creation is like a mini-game over here.
So far, the simplest character I've seen is a Knight/Paladin something or other. Even he I had to keep a notefile for, too many mercenaries and allies due to having maxed out diplo.

WarKitty
2010-09-23, 02:26 PM
As a dedicated druid player I sort of make a sport of building the most broken character I can...and then serving as the backup firepower/buffer. It's actually I lot of fun, and I always (IC) tell the party I have a strict limit on the brokenness I can do so I won't pull it out unless we need it.

Sewercop
2010-09-23, 02:28 PM
Druids going bear are being CoDzilla, that's the minimal definition of CoDzilla. If you haven't noticed, your "I am bear" druid is most likely doing everything the fighter does, but better. This happens even when nobody is doing any optimizing. For example, I ran a low-level campaign in a setting where dinosaurs were relatively common. The druid picked a swindlespitter, then upgraded when he could to a fleshraker. These were picked because they were cool dinos, not for power. The swindlespitter could neuter an enemy every fight, while the fleshraker rapidly became the party's MVP, eclipsing all the actual players. I shudder to think what would have happened once the druid gained wildshape.

Yes, that is the druid.
In my eyes the druid is the most broken on average cause there almost no possibility to screw it up.
Luckiliy my players dont like druids and kind of see them as flower huggers.

But yeah, druids are not good for a party. Not for the fighter at least.

WarKitty
2010-09-23, 02:31 PM
Yes, that is the druid.
In my eyes the druid is the most broken on average cause there almost no possibility to screw it up.
Luckiliy my players dont like druids and kind of see them as flower huggers.

But yeah, druids are not good for a party. Not for the fighter at least.

Prepare bull's strength. Use entangle and fog cloud and whatever else. The fighters now love you. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2010-09-23, 02:32 PM
But yeah, druids are not good for a party. Not for the fighter at least.

What are you saying? Druids are perfect fighters!

...oh, you mean the class? Yeah, chances are a class without class features is going to get outshined by classes with class features; surprise!

Skorj
2010-09-23, 02:33 PM
The ways I've seen T1s cause trouble <i>without</i> intending to be jerks are: high DCs, and divination. Optimizing for high DCs on spells is very natural for engineer-sorts, but a perfectly reasonable amount of optimization changes SoL spells from interesting to encounter-breaking, on every encounter. The divination spells were specifically designed to let the players bypass all the cool traps and deceptive NPCs a DM works so hard on, so an inexperienced DM who doesn't expect that can have his game broken (when the BBEG would IC know about scrying and have taken steps to grealty limit it's usefulness to the party, that balance is up to the DM to provide!).

Dralnu
2010-09-23, 02:36 PM
Yeah, I'm afraid druids are those exceptions in tier 1. You don't need feats or spells, just wildshape + animal companion is going to outclass fighters in unoptimized groups.

A druid lover in my group disagrees and thinks all is balanced in PHB, but we've seen the crazy things he does pre-wildshape with an animal companion and a spell or two. I think he knows it too, since nowadays he goes for the PHB2 variant to ditch the companion and wildshape. He still says ToB is overpowered compared to anything in PHB though. :smallannoyed:

Mystic Muse
2010-09-23, 02:38 PM
A druid lover in my group disagrees and thinks all is balanced in PHB, but we've seen the crazy things he does pre-wildshape with an animal companion and a spell or two. I think he knows it too, since nowadays he goes for the PHB2 variant to ditch the companion and wildshape. He still says ToB is overpowered compared to anything in PHB though. :smallannoyed:

Show him gate.

Dralnu
2010-09-23, 02:53 PM
Show him gate.

Not incredibly relevant. Most of our campaigns start at level 3 and rarely go over level 10. We all concede that high-level play is a strange and broken place.

randomhero00
2010-09-23, 03:17 PM
My friends and I have all done the Super Powered T1 thing, but only once or twice over years and years of playing. It was more of a novelty thing, just to see. So, no. Normally T1s are fine. In fact, in normal games the lower tiers usually out perform the higher.

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-23, 03:28 PM
In my eyes the druid is the most broken on average cause there almost no possibility to screw it up.

"Almost" sadly is the key phrase. The last time we had a druid, after a while of playing, the player just kept using Wild Shape and turning into a bear every combat and attacking. We asked him why he wasn't using his spells anymore and he replied he'd forgotten he had them...

And no, he wasn't a new player - in fact one of our veterans, who really should have known better! Marginally in his defense, it was his first druid and the camapign started at level 10. But even so, we've never forgotten that. Or more precisely, we've never let him forget that...



Other than that, we generally don't have too many problems with the high tiers. (Blasting is something we all particularly like, it must be said.) Equally, though, the way we play (and I in particular DM), the opposition is almost always classed humanoids who nearly always have their own spell caster support. And, as my PCs know, and trick they consistently abuse WILL come right back in their faces. If it's so good that everyone should be using it everyone will! (And if the PCs come up with a counter, I can use that to!) However, this has generally never been a major problem.

(It helps I've been boosting the power of the weaker classes to a level where they are still contributing even at 18th (far too much so, days!) at our particular paradigm.)

WarKitty
2010-09-23, 03:29 PM
"Almost" sadly is the key phrase. The last time we had a druid, after a while of playing, the player just kept using Wild Shape and turning into a bear every combat and attacking. We asked him why he wasn't using his spells anymore and he replied he'd forgotten he had them...

And no, he wasn't a new player - in fact one of our veterans, who really should have known better! Marginally in his defense, it was his first druid and the camapign started at level 10. But even so, we've never forgotten that. Or more precisely, we've never let him forget that...



Other than that, we generally don't have too many problems with the high tiers. (Blasting is something we all particularly like, it must be said.) Equally, though, the way we play (and I in particular DM), the opposition is almost always classed humanoids who nearly always have their own spell caster support. And, as my PCs know, and trick they consistently abuse WILL come right back in their faces. If it's so good that everyone should be using it everyone will! (And if the PCs come up with a counter, I can use that to!) However, this has generally never been a major problem.

(It helps I've been boosting the power of the weaker classes to a level where they are still contributing even at 18th (far too much so, days!) at our particular paradigm.)

To be fair, a druid in bear form is about as useful as a straight fighter.

Aotrs Commander
2010-09-23, 03:42 PM
To be fair, a druid in bear form is about as useful as a straight fighter.

The module was the 3.5 conversion of Lost caverns of Tsjocanth, which the party (at a whole level below the recommendation) were annilhating. The crusader could have nearly solo'd the whole module by virtue of simply having level-appropriate armour and shield. (Virtually nothing had an attack bonus that could hit her. Partly because there were practically no encounters in double digit CR - for a module aimed at 11th level characters...) The party had infinite healing, thanks to the Dread Necromancer/Pale Master and the Unarmed Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja to boot, so to start with, we just assumed he was saving his spells.

What prompted the question was when they ran into one of the only couple of fights that casued them any trouble, a variant of an abyssal basilisk or something. espite beign warned about the petrification, the druid turned into a bear and charged right in and got petrified. Bear in mind he was the only divine caster and the Dread Necro was the only Arcane caster. It was this point when we asked why he didn't use his spells. In fact, it was mainly to the daftnitude of the druid (and also the sekkou (homebrew psionic/adept class, who ended up playing in a similar role to the swordsage), who teleported in an also got petrified that made that combat difficult.

So, that wasn't really a good excuse!

WarKitty
2010-09-23, 03:48 PM
"Almost" sadly is the key phrase. The last time we had a druid, after a while of playing, the player just kept using Wild Shape and turning into a bear every combat and attacking. We asked him why he wasn't using his spells anymore and he replied he'd forgotten he had them...

And no, he wasn't a new player - in fact one of our veterans, who really should have known better! Marginally in his defense, it was his first druid and the camapign started at level 10. But even so, we've never forgotten that. Or more precisely, we've never let him forget that...



Other than that, we generally don't have too many problems with the high tiers. (Blasting is something we all particularly like, it must be said.) Equally, though, the way we play (and I in particular DM), the opposition is almost always classed humanoids who nearly always have their own spell caster support. And, as my PCs know, and trick they consistently abuse WILL come right back in their faces. If it's so good that everyone should be using it everyone will! (And if the PCs come up with a counter, I can use that to!) However, this has generally never been a major problem.

(It helps I've been boosting the power of the weaker classes to a level where they are still contributing even at 18th (far too much so, days!) at our particular paradigm.)


The module was the 3.5 conversion of Lost caverns of Tsjocanth, which the party (at a whole level below the recommendation) were annilhating. The crusader could have nearly solo'd the whole module by virtue of simply having level-appropriate armour and shield. (Virtually nothing had an attack bonus that could hit her. Partly because there were practically no encounters in double digit CR - for a module aimed at 11th level characters...) The party had infinite healing, thanks to the Dread Necromancer/Pale Master and the Unarmed Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja to boot, so to start with, we just assumed he was saving his spells.

What prompted the question was when they ran into one of the only couple of fights that casued them any trouble, a variant of an abyssal basilisk or something. espite beign warned about the petrification, the druid turned into a bear and charged right in and got petrified. Bear in mind he was the only divine caster and the Dread Necro was the only Arcane caster. It was this point when we asked why he didn't use his spells. In fact, it was mainly to the daftnitude of the druid (and also the sekkou (homebrew psionic/adept class, who ended up playing in a similar role to the swordsage), who teleported in an also got petrified that made that combat difficult.

So, that wasn't really a good excuse!

Well technically he *was* about as useful as a straight fighter would have been...which in this case is "not at all." :smallwink:

Edit: wait how did I do that multiquote thing? I haven't managed to do that yet!

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-23, 03:52 PM
Not incredibly relevant. Most of our campaigns start at level 3 and rarely go over level 10. We all concede that high-level play is a strange and broken place.

In that case the PHB is not balanced like your friend claims.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-23, 03:53 PM
It depends. If I am playing a wizard, I BC and buff and let the mundanes have their fun. I hold the really crazy stuff back unless I know we need it. If I'm cleric, I buff the party and play a BC/support role rather than wade into melee.

If somebody else is playing the caster, they usually are using blasts and wasting actions. One time this even got on my nerves immensely, as I was forced to burn tons of spells on in-combat healing because the wizard refused to use BC and wanted to lob Fireballs. I talked to him and explained that Empowered Fireball was a waste of an action at level 11, and to try using something with more tact because I was having no fun watching the mundanes get stomped by strong monsters.

He did figure it out by the end of the campaign, the final battle was us against two dragons, one black adult and a mature adult ghost red dragon at level 15. The encounter was designed to kill us outright, I could tell. However, he took my advice from before and Forcecaged the black, and CL'd a scroll of Time Stop and Polymorphed our thief into a 12 headed hydra. The red ghost had taken damage from a scroll of Mass Heal that I CL checked, and the rogue attacked with 12 heads, hit with 7 out of 12 (hit with all but missed 5 due to incorporeality) and the ghost was dead (the rogue had used a potion of magic fang to get magic natural weapons). The DM was....actually very, very angry. He literally lost his temper.

In all, it depends who is playing the tier I's in my group.

Choco
2010-09-23, 04:01 PM
I am breaking the game in my group right now actually. With a Tier 3 character. In a party that has Tier 1 and 2's. I shudder to think what would happen if I played a Batman Wizard.

Ernir
2010-09-23, 04:03 PM
The T1s in games I DM don't go boom. I have not seen them go completely *BOOM* in the games I've played in, but I have seen them running way, way hotter than the rest.

Shenanigans
2010-09-23, 04:07 PM
The T1's in the 3.5 I play are generally fairly reserved about their power level unless we get into some kind of ridiculous situation where their more ridiculous power is really needed. We're all epic (now) and we all have our roles. Besides, almost everyone who doesn't have at least 9th level spells has a cohort with them, so it works out. :)

Doug Lampert
2010-09-23, 04:08 PM
In response to this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9411165#post9411165 do your tier 1 one casters go kaboom with fireballs and similar in average? Most tier 1`s I have seen in game do not break the fabric of reality at all. Clerics tend to heal,wizards go boom,druids go bear, and so on.

Being tier 1 means you can do almost anything if you want, but how many actually see the batman,codzilla and theyre likes in play?

Most people(it seems) tend to not know of the inherent powers of the classes and plays them as healbots,buffers etc,

So I ask you guys, when you look back at the tier 1`s you have seen in play, how do they tend to be?

The ones I have seen, have not broken the game too much. I have seen clerics reroll fighters because they suck at fighting. But i also have seen some powerhouses.
How are yours?

I don't play third ed anymore. Too much prep for too little gain.

That said, MOST of the tier 1 characters my players came up with would make any optimizer cry like a baby.

Never a healbot cleric (no one wants to play that, and I don't tollerate players telling each other out of character that they "have" to use their god's power to do X unless the god says to do X). But I did have a cleric who thought Scorching Ray was a GOOD spell and prep and cast it a lot (up to and including getting a wand).

And despite the total lack of interest in optimizing they STILL came up with SBT as soon as teleport was available. It's just too obvious.

They STILL figured out that if the entire party could fly then melee monsters on the ground couldn't hurt them.

They STILL figured out that wands of CLW were the way to heal outside of combat (and if I'd let lesser vigor into the game they might have spotted that).

IIRC the one social character came up Diplomancer without even trying. "Can't I use this more quickly at a penalty or something..." Whoops!

The sorcerer mostly went invisible and hid during fights, but since he couldn't cast spells on the enemy while under the level 2 invisibility he was using he fell into buffing and battlefield manipulation by accident and it worked fine.

Broadly, the tier one and two casters didn't do any batman ****, but they were still clearly the most useful and powerful characters just from the accidental effects of using their low level spells on buffs and the like.

DougL

JaxGaret
2010-09-23, 04:11 PM
No, generally speaking our T1s don't break the game for the rest of us. They could, but they chose not to.

This, in a nutshell, is the problem. If you don't pull your punches as a Tier 1 in a party of lesser-optimized characters, you're "breaking the game" and "being a powergaming douchebag", when really all you are doing is roleplaying your character properly - people don't like to die. People like to live. Therefore, to your character, it's not "cheating" to utilize what power is available to them - it's common sense.


I am breaking the game in my group right now actually. With a Tier 3 character. In a party that has Tier 1 and 2's. I shudder to think what would happen if I played a Batman Wizard.

Dread Necro w/ undead army, or possibly Factotum spamming Cunning Surge?

Shenanigans
2010-09-23, 04:15 PM
This, in a nutshell, is the problem. If you don't pull your punches as a Tier 1 in a party of lesser-optimized characters, you're "breaking the game" and "being a powergaming douchebag", when really all you are doing is roleplaying your character properly - people don't like to die. People like to live. Therefore, to your character, it's not "cheating" to utilize what power is available to them - it's common sense.
I'll admit it's very nice to have an epic wizard, epic sorceror, and epic cleric in the party when the Great Wyrm Red Dracolich casts Maw of Chaos and Reaving Dispel on the party. Aside from situations like that, though, they try and let everyone set the tone.

Fiery Diamond
2010-09-23, 04:21 PM
In games I run, the difference between the best player (game/optimization/competence-wise) and the worst player (game/optimization/competence-wise) is greater than the difference between Tier 5 and Tier 1.

So....not really an issue. I have a different issue entirely.

Chaelos
2010-09-23, 04:27 PM
For as much as people howl about them on the forums, I've never seen a "Tier One" do half the things they're supposedly capable of doing in almost a decade of face-to-face 3.x play. (This is why I frequently deride theoretical optimization as a useless exercise in numerological, quasi-masturbatory fantasy.)

Tyndmyr
2010-09-23, 04:44 PM
In my games, everyone goes boom.

Sometimes, it's even willingly.

Saph
2010-09-23, 04:56 PM
In games I run, the difference between the best player (game/optimization/competence-wise) and the worst player (game/optimization/competence-wise) is greater than the difference between Tier 5 and Tier 1.

Ditto. Skill > build > class.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-23, 04:59 PM
For as much as people howl about them on the forums, I've never seen a "Tier One" do half the things they're supposedly capable of doing in almost a decade of face-to-face 3.x play. (This is why I frequently deride theoretical optimization as a useless exercise in numerological, quasi-masturbatory fantasy.)

That's why it's called Theoretical: It isn't meant to be used at all. No DM is his right mind is going to allow you to mess with the Time trait when casting Genesis. No DM is going to allow a Planar Shepherd of Xorait or the Far Realm (then again, getting Planar Shepherd allowed at all is quite the achievement in and of itself). No DM is going to allow Shadow Miracles or Echoing Spell.


But the fact that casters have access to these abilities almost exclusively is what makes them so powerful.

Choco
2010-09-23, 05:25 PM
Dread Necro w/ undead army, or possibly Factotum spamming Cunning Surge?

Nope, nothing that powerful. Melee mix, focusing on Warshaper. And I am breaking the game at a level that T1's do in normal games...

Yeah, in case it aint obvious, this group is NOT made of optimizers, in the slightest.

WarKitty
2010-09-23, 05:30 PM
Could be worse...our rogue just figured out how to use diplomacy.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-23, 05:33 PM
Could be worse...our rogue just figured out how to use diplomacy.

Could be even worse: Your Warblade Chain Tripper could have just remembered he has Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain.

Yes, this really happened.

WarKitty
2010-09-23, 05:40 PM
Could be even worse: Your Warblade Chain Tripper could have just remembered he has Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain.

Yes, this really happened.

Hehe. That's not the problem. Our rogue figured out how to break the game with diplomacy.

Tetrasodium
2010-09-23, 05:55 PM
This, in a nutshell, is the problem. If you don't pull your punches as a Tier 1 in a party of lesser-optimized characters, you're "breaking the game" and "being a powergaming douchebag", when really all you are doing is roleplaying your character properly - people don't like to die. People like to live. Therefore, to your character, it's not "cheating" to utilize what power is available to them - it's common sense.

Dread Necro w/ undead army, or possibly Factotum spamming Cunning Surge?

Flaunting your power means that people know what to expect and prepare for that level of power when they come at you. When the DM throws some half dragons, followed by a tarrasque, followed by an actual dragon of considerable age with a demon for a heart... followed by some demon climbing out of it's chest*... those spells and abilities that the casters never once cast but always had prepared come out in force :).

* yes it happened in a group I was playing with :P. Yes the party interrupted the DM to point out that they would redirect their active redirectable spells and cast new ones while the demon was climbing out and giving a speech. Yes the party was seconds away from frying the glowing creatures of light that came out of the woodwork to start talking about the nature of the world until they mentioned a reward seconds before they were about to be attacked :p.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 06:02 PM
Dread Necro w/ undead army, or possibly Factotum spamming Cunning Surge?An undead army isn't very impressive, given that it's by necessity comprised of rather weak critters. A few strong ones is a lot better investment.

Edit: wait how did I do that multiquote thing? I haven't managed to do that yet!Copy/paste.

This is why I frequently deride theoretical optimization as a useless exercise in numerological, quasi-masturbatory fantasy.Yes, an exercise of intellect and creativity for it's own sake is clearly "quasi-masturbatory fantasy". How else to react to the comment "hey guys, look what I can do?", other than with derision.

Now pat yourself on the back for being such a clear-headed individual with no time for silly hobbies.

Hehe. That's not the problem. Our rogue figured out how to break the game with diplomacy.Yeah, that happens when you actually use the skill.

Darklord Xavez
2010-09-23, 06:04 PM
Yes, an exercise of intellect and creativity for it's own sake is clearly "quasi-masturbatory fantasy". How else to react to the comment "hey guys, look what I can do?", other than with derision.

Now pat yourself on the back for being such a clear-headed individual with no time for silly hobbies.

I see that as just plain rude. Be polite to him, for god's sake!
-Xavez

Greenish
2010-09-23, 06:13 PM
I see that as just plain rude.I should think that as a fair characterization of his stance, given his own comments.

As a practitioner of both, I can tell you that theoretical optimization and indulging in masturbatory fantasies are different things entirely. :smallwink:

Gametime
2010-09-23, 06:24 PM
For as much as people howl about them on the forums, I've never seen a "Tier One" do half the things they're supposedly capable of doing in almost a decade of face-to-face 3.x play. (This is why I frequently deride theoretical optimization as a useless exercise in numerological, quasi-masturbatory fantasy.)

Three things come to mind.

1. Theoretical optimization isn't meant to be practiced. That's why it's distinguished from practical optimization.

2. There's nothing "supposed" about the capabilities of tier 1 classes. They can do most of the things they're claimed to be able to do on this very forum.* Whether anyone actually exercises that capability is another matter entirely, but throwing in a "supposedly" just makes it sound like you're casting aspersions on not only the practical but also the theoretical reasoning of the people who came up with these builds and combos.

3. Though I doubt hyper-optimized wizards are the norm, I also doubt that your own play experience is extensive enough to serve as a basis for judging the standard of gaming for the D&D community.




As a practitioner of both, I can tell you that theoretical optimization and indulging in masturbatory fantasies are different things entirely. :smallwink:

Yeah, if they were the same then the Book of Erotic Fantasy would have better balanced classes. Bazinga!

Khatoblepas
2010-09-23, 06:25 PM
I'm playing a Shadowcraft Mage in a World's Largest Dungeon setting after my Inspire monkey bard got lost in another dimension due to me willingly letting him stay there for now. I'm level 13-14, A spell level behind due to ALSO being a Nar Demonbinder/Ultimate Magus (Sacrificing power for abilities, woo!), and I can cast any evocation/conjuration(summoning, creation) spell in existance with my spell slots. Only problem is, I hardly ever cast spells. Usually I use my Imp familiar to scout, UMD things, and identify items, and I use my Knowledges. Apart from a couple of Shadow-Summonings and blasty spells, I've not seen an opportunity to break the system in two.

I mean, the party is doing fine. If I ever need to break out the big guns, it's when the party is in deep trouble anyway. The party (IC) think I'm a mere illusionist, with no special powers. It's fun to not solve every problem with magic.

This is a game with a full Cleric 14, an Eldritch Theurge, a Charging Barbarian, a Paladin 14, and a Psion 14. The PSION is usually the one throwing his raw power around. And only because we let him.

It's not as if I'm going to break out my Shadow Miracles unless I really need it... who knows who is GRANTING those things? The most cheese I do is Extended Shadow Craft Magic Tattoo to give my party a bit of a buff.

Generally, if the person playing the Tier 1 is party rather than self-focused, he can make a party run awesomely without the hassle of being a paranoid recluse. Give the party something, and they won't think you're stealing the limelight, but brightening their own. This is why War Weavers are more popular than Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil.

Besides, it's more fun to get stuck in throwing D6s and hindering the enemy just the right amount rather than zapping everyone dead in the first round. The wizard is your nuke - you don't bring him out in full force until there is no other option. So generally, no, our Tier 1s stay pretty low key until we need them most. Makes our fighters and rogues feel more useful - they get to hit things, and we hang back knowing that we've got their back

JaxGaret
2010-09-23, 06:35 PM
It's not as if I'm going to break out my Shadow Miracles unless I really need it... who knows who is GRANTING those things?

That's a really good question.


You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

If you have a god you actively worship, it would probably be them - but if you don't actively worship a god, then it seems that it would come from the same place your spells do.


An undead army isn't very impressive, given that it's by necessity comprised of rather weak critters. A few strong ones is a lot better investment.

I agree that a few strong ones is a better investment, but even in numbers, an undead-focused Dread Necro can be campaign-breaking in that it takes over the spotlight and does most of the work.

After all, what problem can't minions solve? :smallsmile:

Thrawn183
2010-09-23, 06:42 PM
Unfortunately in the groups I have played in, the only people interested in playing casters are the one's who want to terrible, terrible things.

Granted, they also prefer sorcerors and psions, so not techinically tier 1... but yeah, I've had some serious problems arise.

Lucid
2010-09-23, 06:47 PM
I'm currently playing a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist, and I'm arguably the strongest member in the party. I mostly stick to buffing and healing, and going into melee, only breaking out the big guns when the going gets tough.

I'm probably less optimized than the rest of the party (dungeoncrasher fighter and a ranger optimized for archery), and I'm still easily the biggest damage dealer out of the three of us. I'm pulling punches when it comes to spells, but we're having a blast playing.:smallcool:

I guess it comes down to individual playstyle, I've gamed with players who loved nothing more than to show off with their wizard, steamrolling encounters. On the other hand I've gamed with people who were just in it for the roleplay, not bothering if a choice was suboptimal, as long as it was cool.

Greenish
2010-09-23, 06:50 PM
I agree that a few strong ones is a better investment, but even in numbers, an undead-focused Dread Necro can be campaign-breaking in that it takes over the spotlight and does most of the work.Oh yeah, and there are more than one way to break campaigns.

"Okay, it's your and your hundred 1-HD skeletons' turn. What do you do?"
"This might take a while…"

Tiniere
2010-09-23, 07:04 PM
I, unfortunately, have not come to experience players who break the game with magic. I'm a fairly liberal DM and try to let the players make their characters what they want them to be, and I craft a story that tests and deals with them as individuals and a grouo unto itself... of course, with ym friends this means that we essentialy end up with half a dozen martial characters... and no rogues, not the best problem solvers.

Typically, the party makes friends with a local cleric, druid, psion or other magic user/manifester and the NPC, even a few levels below them manages to astound the characters with "fantastic feats of wonder". I guess it doesn't coun't as game breaking when the DM optimises a few maniacle kobold lich-sorcerers to demonstrate the power of magic to the party right...?

Gnaeus
2010-09-23, 07:24 PM
In response to this thread do your tier 1 one casters go kaboom with fireballs and similar in average? Most tier 1`s I have seen in game do not break the fabric of reality at all. Clerics tend to heal,wizards go boom,druids go bear, and so on.

The ones I have seen, have not broken the game too much. I have seen clerics reroll fighters because they suck at fighting. But i also have seen some powerhouses.
How are yours?

It depends on what breaking the game means to you. I have never seen the highest levels of breaking (gate abuse, crushing the economy, sitting on another plane while your projection adventures for you, infinite loops) in play. Most players realize that this is a bad idea, and most DMs catch it quickly, so they really rarely come up.

I have seen a lot of tier 1s as party MVPs. The druid who (with his pet) can solo a monster while the entire rest of the party fights its twin. The wizard who suddenly looks up from his book and says "Oh, I have the right spell for this" and ends an encounter before it begins.

This happens, in my experience, MORE often in parties with little internet input. A smart player can rule the game with a tier 1 fairly easily, and if he has never heard of tiers and hasn't fully analyzed class balance he can easily chalk his victories up to superior play, as opposed to realizing that he is playing in easy mode. I confess that some of my druids and wizards (I like to play casters. Muggles don't interest me) that I played before I understood 3.5's (im)balance were played in a way that makes me a little bit ashamed to think of today.

137beth
2010-09-23, 07:49 PM
The only times I have seen a character capable of doing what a 20th level wizard allegedly can do if they are played perfectly was when my group played until 40th level. Granted, none were pure wizards, but there were two full spellcasters. Also, we were using Rich Burlew's polymorph rules, not the "rules" for polymorph in core.

Now pure fighters on the other hand, cannot compete with tier 2-3. The highest I played a pure fighter was 30th level, and it will be a long time before I do that again. And that was with a lot of custom fighter-only-feats that were a heck of a lot better than core feats.

jguy
2010-09-23, 07:59 PM
I broke the game with 3 spells and some down time to the point where I am not allowed to use them this way anymore.

Wall of Stone multiple times (to get 20,000 pounds of stone) in a cube shape. Use Stone shape to merge them into one big cube. Use shrink item to make it a 5 pound cube. Do this a couple times. I would fly over fights and drop the cubes, making them grow mid-drop. I took out 2 encounters in 1 turn before the DM no longer let me do that.

fortesama
2010-09-23, 08:11 PM
That's why it's called Theoretical: It isn't meant to be used at all. No DM is his right mind is going to allow you to mess with the Time trait when casting Genesis. No DM is going to allow a Planar Shepherd of Xorait or the Far Realm (then again, getting Planar Shepherd allowed at all is quite the achievement in and of itself). No DM is going to allow Shadow Miracles or Echoing Spell.


But the fact that casters have access to these abilities almost exclusively is what makes them so powerful.

Mine allowed all of those and then some. My group tends to be mildly insane though, so that's to be expected... and they used all of those to do some rather inane things.

The genesis time trait? Used to make some high quality wine.

Time stop? Spammed by our wizard/rogue/daggerspell mage maid named Sakuya Izayoi to clean the house.

Gate? Shoe cleaners and chuck norris.

Glitterdust? So our sorcerer could have some bishie sparkle to go with his high CHA.

Our beholder mage? None of the above, but a lot of orbs of fire and metamagic stacking.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-23, 08:34 PM
I broke the game with 3 spells and some down time to the point where I am not allowed to use them this way anymore.

Wall of Stone multiple times (to get 20,000 pounds of stone) in a cube shape. Use Stone shape to merge them into one big cube. Use shrink item to make it a 5 pound cube. Do this a couple times. I would fly over fights and drop the cubes, making them grow mid-drop. I took out 2 encounters in 1 turn before the DM no longer let me do that.

Hmm, yeah. I abused wall of iron similarly once. The party boarded a ship. I sank the rest of the fleet. I was done first.

Though actually, naval encounters are really easy to trivialize with spellcasters in general.



Edit: And yes, we allow most wierd powerful RAW options. So long as it ain't infinite, go nuts. Shadow miracles? Why not?

WarKitty
2010-09-23, 08:35 PM
Copy/paste.
Ironically I didnt' do that. I just clicked something, I don't know what, and it did multiquote.



Yeah, that happens when you actually use the skill.

Whoops that was the alchemist and not the rogue I was thinking of. That was such epic RP he deserved it though. Guy went on for five minutes IC about how he was the prophet of the demon god of slaughter and the son of the desert sun, and how if they would go up to the surface and stare at the sun for 48 hours they would be gifted with the power to burn cities down.

Heliomance
2010-09-23, 08:53 PM
Ironically I didnt' do that. I just clicked something, I don't know what, and it did multiquote.


The " next to the Quote button does multiquote.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-23, 10:41 PM
I've experienced this plenty, and I have firsthand experience that all the "no DM would ever allow this" and "no one really plays like that" arguments don't always hold. I'm a very liberal DM (my only real restrictions are "Anything infinite or close enough to it doesn't work" and "Anything you do, the NPCs are then allowed to do") and most of the people in my current group I taught to play two years ago. They came to D&D via Guild Wars and M:tG, so within a week of saying "Hey guys, I'm gonna teach you D&D" they'd already collectively found most of the good tactics and combos that tend to break things in half.

Cespenar
2010-09-24, 01:18 AM
I'm playing a diviner right now in a PbP game, and mind you, I'm playing it really down (like Tier 4ish), but it's really fun, because the DM (Zjackrum) plans ahead and plays along with my divinations, which almost ends up as a small side game going exclusively for me.

The only time I got the least bit of competent was in an encounter that was above our heads(a 10-odd level wizard plus a summoned bone devil versus a 7-8th level party, I believe), which my diviner, as a stoneskinned flying bear, zoomed by the devil to charge and grapple the wizard, who fortunately had already spent his teleportation spells. We lost a member or two at that battle, but still.

Yeah, any optimizer would go crazy and headdesk himself to death in less than 10 minutes into our game, but it's pretty enjoyable, because all players and the DM are going with a similar optimization level.

Wings of Peace
2010-09-24, 01:52 AM
In the games I've run my players have generally been to inexperienced to be overly game breaking with their tier 1s.

I had the same experience when playing a tier 1 even at the lower levels. But my own play experience may be rendered moot by the fact it was a 4 person party counting myself and even at the low levels of play my wizard was the reason we survived many of our encounters.

Zen Master
2010-09-24, 02:29 AM
It's funny, really. Because while I mainly play melee types with no casting (though occasionally some manifesting), I'm the one who often has to tone it down a bit to keep everyone happy.

The tier 1's in our group do well of course - but not to the point of eclipsing anyone.

Psyx
2010-09-24, 06:46 AM
Not really, no.

That's only because:

We don't really ever play past 14th level.
It's not big, and it's not clever.
People who think it is big and clever to be a jerk and trash the game aren't invited back.


Basically, it is really easy to trash a game as a T1. We all know it. We all know it causes aggravation for the guy who has been kind enough to run for us as well as the other players. So it's reined in.
When people do play T1 characters, they don't play it to the max, and play in a considerate manner. For example; I'm currently playing a Ultimate Magus... specialising in Evocation, with 3 levels of human paragon, who hasn't blagged early entry or the 9th level spell blag. I fireball things. Is it optimal? No. Is fireballing things fun? Yes.

I have been in a couple of games where people have gone and rushed off to the interwebz in order to build a min-maxxed IoSFVs, Recasters, Incantrix and stuff like that, and then sat at the table proposing 1 encounter per day, scry and die, and generally pulling all the blaggy tactics out. Those people were douches though, and it made for a very dull game.

Playing T1 to the max is game-breaking. Fortunately my play-groups keep a lid on it, for the sake of everyone's enjoyment.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-09-24, 10:23 PM
I am breaking the game in my group right now actually. With a Tier 3 character. In a party that has Tier 1 and 2's.I feel your pain. Except its not pain. Its fun. Like playing SSB and your allies who all have invulnerability stars jumped into pits.


druid is the most broken on average cause there almost no possibility to screw it upOh I know a few ways (mechanically, not player-decision-wise)

137beth
2010-09-24, 10:50 PM
Using the core rules for polymorphing, there really is no way for a druid to screw up...

CHOCO: what tier 3 is it?!?!?

AslanCross
2010-09-25, 12:46 AM
I've run three campaigns so far (the first having two separate parties doing the same story).

1A) Lasted the longest (about 2 and a half years, Lv 5-10); had a Wizard. His spell selection was optimized (thanks to my help), and I didn't ban any spells apart from Polymorph. He had Celerity, Black Tentacles, and Solid Fog. He also had Fireball and a few other blaster spells. He did pretty well and while he did shut down some encounters entirely on his own, he ended up in mortal danger several times (and died once, getting a free raise from me due to us all being n00bs). He was about the strongest wizard in my experience.

This game also had a Cleric of Kelemvor. We helped her optimize as much as possible, but it was the way she played that kind of nerfed her (she was a healbot).

No gamebreakers.

1B) Had a wizard who ended up leaving before any serious damage was done. Game fell apart due to people not getting the concept of party cooperation, and tempers flaring.

2) Hell's Heart adventure, set in Eberron. Had no Tier 1s.

3) Eberron Red Hand of Doom campaign. Had an artificer. Died; was replaced by a Cloistered cleric with the Magic and Force domains who died twice despite her optimized spell list. (though she had a balanced mix of blast spells and vital utility spells)

This is the reason why I continue letting Tier 1s exist. They really haven't broken my games at all.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-25, 01:56 AM
Like playing SSB and your allies who all have invulnerability stars jumped into pits.

Or when playing on Pictochat and letting a L9 Fox/Falco/Wolf get the Smash ball and watch as the AI instinctively guides them to their deaths.


Not sure if that was luck or an actual glitch though.

Sewercop
2010-09-25, 08:36 AM
Oh I know a few ways (mechanically, not player-decision-wise)

Yes, but still. You would have impressed me if you never had played the game and managed to screw up a druid.

Ormur
2010-09-25, 07:37 PM
I've been playing a wizard from level one as my first character (long campaign that's been recently restarted) and now that I know how to optimize a bit some of my earlier choices seem a bit painful. Through levels 7 to 13 I played with a Druid and a Barbarian and we never broke the game but the difference was still pretty glaring. Now that the Barbarian player has withdrawn the DM turned up the difficulty to eleven and we're pretty much trying to go boom as hard as we can without going over the limit that would make the DM respond in kind.

Is arcane thesis by itself okay, how about shivering touch with Arcane Reach, or Antimagic spell and master of shaping or sculpt spell? The DM once suggested we might not want something like the last one aimed at us. Now I wonder how he'll respond to me wearing a shrunk item metal hat on my head. What's the fine line where you're more effective than the NPC's but not breaking the game.

WarKitty
2010-09-25, 07:45 PM
I've been playing a wizard from level one as my first character (long campaign that's been recently restarted) and now that I know how to optimize a bit some of my earlier choices seem a bit painful. Through levels 7 to 13 I played with a Druid and a Barbarian and we never broke the game but the difference was still pretty glaring. Now that the Barbarian player has withdrawn the DM turned up the difficulty to eleven and we're pretty much trying to go boom as hard as we can without going over the limit that would make the DM respond in kind.

Is arcane thesis by itself okay, how about shivering touch with Arcane Reach, or Antimagic spell and master of shaping or sculpt spell? The DM once suggested we might not want something like the last one aimed at us. Now I wonder how he'll respond to me wearing a shrunk item metal hat on my head. What's the fine line where you're more effective than the NPC's but not breaking the game.

My best advice: find your gamebreaking tricks and save them. Don't use the big guns all the time. Save your big guns, then break them out when it looks like you're going to lose.