Campaign Dead...due to assault [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SoD

2010-09-23, 05:10 PM

I was recently running Savage Tides for a group of people I know. We had a very fun group, made of a Cleric of Nerull, who had just renounced his faith, a vampire loyal to his family, the clerics butler (NPC), an extremely smart, yet fragile wizard (22 int, 4 con), and a loveable fighter.

While I wasn't there, the cleric's player was DMing for the others. The vampire, in a duel, was turned mortal, and used a wish to be, quote, 'good and better again', end quote. He was unhappy with the ruling and told the cleric to 'get to his room or I'll throw a knife at you', went to the kitchen, and threw a knife. The cleric, after a scuffle to get the knife, bolted and called the cops. The vampire feels he was hard done by by having the cops called.

Both people ended up with little more than a scratch/bite or two, but that's the end of the gaming group. The cleric decided against a court case, as the vampire just won't understand that he did anything wrong, because that's the kind of guy (read; slightly unbalanced) he is.

Ravens_cry

2010-09-23, 05:14 PM

*head desk*

Daefos

2010-09-23, 05:22 PM

Jack_Simth

2010-09-23, 05:24 PM

The cleric decided against a court case, as the vampire just won't understand that he did anything wrong, because that's the kind of guy (read; slightly unbalanced) he is.
Ah... that type is part of the reason laws exist. The guy who doesn't see anything wrong about throwing a knife at his buddy over a game probably shouldn't be walking around in public.

mucat

2010-09-23, 05:36 PM

I might not be understanding the story entirely -- at first I thought you were talking about things the characters were doing, since you kept calling them "the cleric" and "the vampire" even long after the game was irrelevant -- but this guy threw a knife over a trivial disagreement, and the target and witnesses are not pressing charges? It was premeditated: before the attack, he threatened to knife the guy if he didn't get his way; the threat alone should have landed him in jail, even if he hadn't followed up on it. And worse, the reason they are not pressing charges is because he's too unbalanced to feel any remorse?

Everyone who witnessed this event is showing an almost criminal level of irresponsibility. If he hurts someone more seriously next time he throws one of these tantrums, a significant portion of the blame belongs to you and your friends.

Claudius Maximus

2010-09-23, 05:39 PM

If charges are not going to be pressed, I suggest at least trying to get the vampire player some help. I doubt you'd want him to do something like that again.

NineThePuma

2010-09-23, 05:40 PM

Epic Railroading?

Jack Zander

2010-09-23, 05:42 PM

If charges are not going to be pressed, I suggest at least trying to get the vampire player some help. I doubt you'd want him to do something like that again.

I think you mean the vampire.

Morph Bark

2010-09-23, 06:34 PM

So you have someone who honestly doesn't understand why throwing knives at people over something as trivial as a D&D session is wrong and deserving of punishment, and you aren't trying to get him locked up?

Can you explain this to me?

If you punish a kid for stealing a cookie when he doesn't know stealing cookies is wrong, the kid will just think you're unfair and will continue to steal cookies.

If you help the kid understand stealing cookies is wrong, he won't do it anymore.

Starbuck_II

2010-09-23, 06:43 PM

While I wasn't there, the cleric's player was DMing for the others. The vampire, in a duel, was turned mortal, and used a wish to be, quote, 'good and better again', end quote.

What the heck does that mean?

The cleric decided against a court case, as the vampire just won't understand that he did anything wrong, because that's the kind of guy (read; slightly unbalanced) he is.

Okay, that I can understand. In the heat of the moment he lost his mind, he may be too attached to his character.
But I don't really underatand what you mean by "good/better".

Really, Vampire guys needs to seprate real life/fiction.

Christopher K.

2010-09-23, 06:43 PM

My little brother was upset with me once and kicked me in the face(while I was sleeping) over a ruling I made on his group's campaign a few weeks ago. I got a broken nose from it and of course, because I must've started it by making a fair ruling, my parents decided it wasn't worth the effort of giving him even a lecture.

(And they wonder why I stopped DMing them?)

NineThePuma

2010-09-23, 06:45 PM

The vampire may have desired to go back to being a (free) Vampire. The Cleric DMer instead interpreted it a different way.

Claudius Maximus

2010-09-23, 06:45 PM

I think you mean the vampire.

What do you mean? I am talking about the vampire.

big teej

2010-09-23, 06:46 PM

it totally took me three read throughs of the OP (and two of those after reading comments) to get that this wasn't all in character. and couldn't get why this killed the group.....then it hit me. :smallredface:

that said

wow.....

uhm, I can happily say I have never had a moment like this in dnd, or anyt other setting whatsoever, and if I did, I think it would end much more poorly, likely with a death... at the very least a hospital visit (everyone in my former group takes threats very seroiusly)

so I would totally be pressing charges, or defending myself in court, or whatever the situation turned out to be.

thats kinda scary =P I second everyone else in favor of pressing charges and/or getting the vamp player help

Abies

2010-09-23, 06:48 PM

If you punish a kid for stealing a cookie when he doesn't know stealing cookies is wrong, the kid will just think you're unfair and will continue to steal cookies.

If you help the kid understand stealing cookies is wrong, he won't do it anymore.

And if the individual is indeed mentally deficient enough so as not to be able to understand that trying to kill someone over a game is not a socially acceptable behavior, the legal system will help him gaining the "education" you suggest.

Jack_Simth

2010-09-23, 07:08 PM

If you punish a kid for stealing a cookie when he doesn't know stealing cookies is wrong, the kid will just think you're unfair and will continue to steal cookies.

If you help the kid understand stealing cookies is wrong, he won't do it anymore.Punishment of a form significant to the transgressor must accompany the explanation of the transgression. Otherwise, the transgressor learns that he can act without significant consequence. For some, the lecture is significant; for others, it's not. The OP stated fairly clearly that the lecture was attempted, and had no effect.

In the case of a child stealing cookies, if you don't get the accompanying punishment 'right', you're likely to have a repeat cookie-theft - which is merely mildly annoying for the vast majority of people. If you don't have the resources readily available to properly punish and explain, you either put the child where the child can't get to the cookies, or put the cookies where the child can't get to them (remove the child from the temptation, or remove the temptation from the child).

In the case of an adult throwing knives, if you don't get the accompanying punishment 'right', you're likely to have a repeat knife-throwing - which has a fair chance of being fatal to someone. If you don't have the resources readily available to properly punish and explain, you either put the knife-thrower where the knife-thrower can't throw knives, or put everyone else where the knife-thrower can't throw knives at them (remove the knife-thrower from the temptation, or remove the temptation from the knife-thrower).

As the OP stated reasonably clearly that explanation has been tried and was not sufficient for behavior modification, and putting everyone else somewhere that the knife-thrower can't get to them is not really feasible (you'd have to move everyone within a very large radius), that leaves putting the knife-thrower where the knife-thrower can't throw knives (jail). Otherwise, there is likely to be a repeat knife-throwing. Which might result in someone getting killed.

Starbuck_II

2010-09-23, 07:25 PM

As the OP stated reasonably clearly that explanation has been tried and was not sufficient for behavior modification, and putting everyone else somewhere that the knife-thrower can't get to them is not really feasible (you'd have to move everyone within a very large radius), that leaves putting the knife-thrower where the knife-thrower can't throw knives (jail). Otherwise, there is likely to be a repeat knife-throwing. Which might result in someone getting killed.

But there are knives in jail so that won't help. Have you ever be to a jail (to see what they like not as an inmate)?
Yeah, Prisoners get silverwear when eating meals.

mobdrazhar

2010-09-23, 07:34 PM

They may not put him into Jail though. He may end up being forced to get help by the judicial system. this may actually end up better for him.

Susano-wo

2010-09-23, 07:43 PM

Wow, what a psycho. Though I don't think i would have gone intothe kitchen with the guy who just threatened me with a knife, but who knows....I wasn't there >.>

One thing that puzzles me (aside from the lack of charges being pressed, which, if he *truly* can't understand would most likely result in commitment into the mental health system of your state...something he needs if he truly can't comprehend why assault with a deadly weapon was wrong in this case..):

Why does this mean the group has to break up? Why can't the sane members of the group simply play without him?

Elemental_Elf

2010-09-23, 07:45 PM

Throwing knives at people because of a stupid game is not acceptable. There needs to be a punishment for this crime above and beyond never playing D&D with the Vampire ever again.

Why does this mean the group has to break up? Why can't the sane members of the group simply play without him?

I agree, just eliminate the Vampire and the group seems fine. If the Vampire starts stalking the group, get a restraining order. If he breaks that, then its off to jail/prison/mental-health-ward for him.

Mystic Muse

2010-09-23, 07:50 PM

*Face desk*

Get this guy locked up. This seems more like attempted murder than assault.

JoshuaZ

2010-09-23, 08:10 PM

This isn't as bad as The Lanky Bugger's infamous experience (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23784). But yeah, I agree with the others suggesting you press charges. Two other reasons you should do so 1) given what this player's behavior is like, other players may be in danger 2) if this sort of behavior occurs then other members of society in general may be in danger.

Lycan 01

2010-09-23, 08:14 PM

I suddenly feel much less comfortable taking up the roll of DM next week for a group of guys I've never played with before.

big teej

2010-09-23, 08:24 PM

I suddenly feel much less comfortable taking up the roll of DM next week for a group of guys I've never played with before.

don't sweat it man, last weekend I dm'd for 6 people I have NEVER gamed with
several of which have never seen a d20 before

it went FANTASTIC

(I even got a facebook status out of it from one of the female players)

just sit down, and do your thing (you know, trying to kill the characters:smallwink:) and it'll all work out fine

Another_Poet

2010-09-23, 08:24 PM

This isn't as bad as The Lanky Bugger's infamous experience (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23784).

Disagree. Lanky Bugger makes his story very interesting to read, but the psycho GM he encountered only belittled him and hung around outside his door after being kicked out. Creepy, yes. But not immediately life-threatening like throwing a knife at someone.

SoD's psycho is more psycho than that other psycho :smallbiggrin:

ap

JoshuaZ

2010-09-23, 08:27 PM

Disagree. Lanky Bugger makes his story very interesting to read, but the psycho GM he encountered only belittled him and hung around outside his door after being kicked out. Creepy, yes. But not immediately life-threatening like throwing a knife at someone.

SoD's psycho is more psycho than that other psycho :smallbiggrin:

ap

Well, he did then break the window the next night and threaten to kill him after being maced by the police (read later in the thread). But yeah, at minimum this is the closest I've heard to something topping Lanky Bugger's story.

Coidzor

2010-09-23, 08:32 PM

Both people ended up with little more than a scratch/bite or two, but that's the end of the gaming group. The cleric decided against a court case, as the vampire just won't understand that he did anything wrong, because that's the kind of guy (read; slightly unbalanced) he is.

Wait, he decided against a court case to drum it into the person's head how unacceptable that was because the person didn't understand how unacceptable that was?

...That's a silly reason to forego a court case.

If you punish a kid for stealing a cookie when he doesn't know stealing cookies is wrong, the kid will just think you're unfair and will continue to steal cookies.

If you help the kid understand stealing cookies is wrong, he won't do it anymore.

And doing neither just leaves them where they started. Or worse.

Edit: I rather doubt jail-time would be issued, but then, I don't know the jurisdiction or laws involved. I'm thinking though, nonetheless, that court-ordered anger-management classes are a distinct possibility.

SoD: So what about the Wizard and the Fighter? Are they siding with the other guy, or do you at least have those three?

Jack_Simth

2010-09-23, 08:35 PM

But there are knives in jail so that won't help. Have you ever be to a jail (to see what they like not as an inmate)?
Yeah, Prisoners get silverwear when eating meals.Granted, it's non-ideal. I suppose execution for attempted murder isn't overly out of line in many societies. Did the OP specify jurisdiction?

Lycan 01

2010-09-23, 08:40 PM

I think this may actually rival Lanky's story. I may not beat it, but its still pretty close to it. I mean, yeah, Lanky's DM came back, but that was after it became more of a personal grudge. This was still just an arguement at the gaming table that went south right then and there. As far as bad immediate reactions go, I'd say this is pretty bad. Also, Lanky's group didn't break up. This one did.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-23, 08:41 PM

Jails are not awesome, true. However, not everyone who goes to jail gets stabbed.

It is, however, a pretty significant consequence. Even if he doesn't understand exactly why it should be wrong, he'll at least understand that what he did is considered wrong by society at large. And hopefully not do that again. Pressing charges against such a psycho is advised.

Phew, never had a game of D&D come to violence.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 08:58 PM

Pressing charges against such a psycho is advised.

Taking this out of context for a minute, let me just say that this might be a bad idea. Sometimes pressing charges against a guy like that just triggers the "stalker-plotting-your-death" thing when they might just go along and forget how angry they were at you otherwise.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-23, 09:00 PM

Taking this out of context for a minute, let me just say that this might be a bad idea. Sometimes pressing charges against a guy like that just triggers the "stalker-plotting-your-death" thing when they might just go along and forget how angry they were at you otherwise.

That's a really, really terrible reason to not do so. It's GREAT reason for him to be in jail, though.

Thurbane

2010-09-23, 09:04 PM

We had an incident many years ago with one player deliberately baiting and annoying another until he ended up exloding, and beating the other guy bloody (literally). It was a really nasty incident, but fortunately our group survived it.

While in no way excusing the actions of the guy who beat up the other, the guy who provoked as quite unpopular (both at D&D and in general) due to his efforts to deliberately be as annoying as possible to everyone. He wasn't greatly missed when he withdrew from the group.

...to the OP, please don't let it be the end of your group - if you just drop the offending player, hoefully the rest of you can carry on.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 09:07 PM

That's a really, really terrible reason to not do so. It's GREAT reason for him to be in jail, though.

Why? Jail doesn't stop people from being psychopaths, and after he gets out he's gonna come after you. That versus the possibility that he trundles off into the sunset and learns to manage his anger better. One incident of knife throwing because of a disagreement over a game doesn't necessarily mean he'll turn into a raving lunatic bent on revenge, nor does it necessarily mean he'll reach the boiling point like that again. However, jail time is a lot bigger, and might be a much stronger trigger for that behavior.

Knaight

2010-09-23, 09:08 PM

If you punish a kid for stealing a cookie when he doesn't know stealing cookies is wrong, the kid will just think you're unfair and will continue to steal cookies.

If you help the kid understand stealing cookies is wrong, he won't do it anymore.

If the kid manages to reach adulthood without realizing the moral concepts behind stealing and theft, then they probably shouldn't be allowed any independence. Laws are just fair enough to wait for an actual crime most of the time, so the symptom of this lack of understanding--theft--manifests first. Knife throwing is the same principle, the guy never learned not to throw knives at someone, but one has to wait for him to actually throw the knife to lock him up. He threw the knife, so being locked up is pretty ideal.

Concerning Lanky, he did get stabbed by his girlfriend, though she realized very quickly that she had errored, and that was a heat of the moment thing.

Thurbane

2010-09-23, 09:13 PM

FWIW, I don't think throwing someone in jail for what is (hopefully) an isolated incident is neccessarily a good thing.

Also, we don't have a great deal of detail from the OP as to the precise nature of the incident - hurling a sharpened butcher's knife full pace directly at someone, and off-handedly tossing a bread-and-butter knife in someone's general direction are fairly different things...

...if the victim thinks the incident was serious enough, sure, report it to the authorities. But expecting someone to do hard time over what was possibly a first offense is a little bit harsh, IMHO. Something like court-mandated anger managament, or a psychiatric assessment would be more in order.

Again, it's very hard for us to say, with the amount of info currently at hand in regards to exactly what occurred.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-23, 09:14 PM

Why? Jail doesn't stop people from being psychopaths, and after he gets out he's gonna come after you. That versus the possibility that he trundles off into the sunset and learns to manage his anger better. One incident of knife throwing because of a disagreement over a game doesn't necessarily mean he'll turn into a raving lunatic bent on revenge, nor does it necessarily mean he'll reach the boiling point like that again. However, jail time is a lot bigger, and might be a much stronger trigger for that behavior.

Because if the dude is willing to throw knives at you over a disagreement in a game of D&D, he is ALREADY dangerous, and has demonstrated that. He doesn't need to turn into a raving lunatic, he's already acting in ways that are completely inappropriate.

Odds are good it'll come up again. Playing a game of D&D is probably not the most difficult situation you'll run into in life. I feel safe saying that anyone who feels forced to resort to overt, real world violence to solve an in-game problem has pretty serious issues, and all your solution does is avoid the issue in hopes it somehow wont come up again.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 09:21 PM

Exactly, the hope from my standpoint would be that he forgets about the incident and goes on about his life somewhere where I am not. You might think that's a cowards way out, and putting someone else at risk down the line. You're probably right too. As I have never dealt with this, I can't tell if that is how I'd react or not. On a theoretical level, I don't care as long as I and mine take no harm, which I feel would be at higher risk if I brought the cops down on him. In reality? I might sue the living hell out of him, who knows.

Dairun Cates

2010-09-23, 09:24 PM

Why? Jail doesn't stop people from being psychopaths, and after he gets out he's gonna come after you. That versus the possibility that he trundles off into the sunset and learns to manage his anger better. One incident of knife throwing because of a disagreement over a game doesn't necessarily mean he'll turn into a raving lunatic bent on revenge, nor does it necessarily mean he'll reach the boiling point like that again. However, jail time is a lot bigger, and might be a much stronger trigger for that behavior.

If he's the kind to keep a grudge strong enough to assault someone right after he gets out of prison, do you really think he's stable enough to admit he has a problem and go get psychiatric help. After all, the guy did see nothing wrong with assaulting someone with a knife. Getting someone in jail is a way of preventing them from threatening other people as well when they're dangerous. If he's really that far over, it's highly likely he'll be mandated by the court to get psychiatric help and won't be released until he can show signs of being a healthy member of society.

I'm not saying their decision was wrong (it's their judgment call), but fear of retaliation is a very bad reason to not press charges when someone attacks you. If someone is really scary enough to threaten your life, you're not safe around them to begin with. That thin veil of being passive just gives them more reason to bully you as they don't think you'll fight back.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 09:27 PM

My point was that the knife throwing might be a temper tantrum rather than willful intent to injure. Whereas that line might be crossed if you send them to court for it. Sort of a "at first I was just acting in the heat of the moment, but now I want blood."

Knaight

2010-09-23, 09:28 PM

FWIW, I don't think throwing someone in jail for what is (hopefully) an isolated incident is neccessarily a good thing.

Also, we don't have a great deal of detail from the OP as to the precise nature of the incident - hurling a sharpened butcher's knife full pace directly at someone, and off-handedly tossing a bread-and-butter knife in someone's general direction are fairly different things...

A butter knife isn't going to be called a knife without further details in this context, and doesn't make sense as the threat anyways. And if the transgression against someone is attempted murder, then once is enough to arrest. If a drunk throws a punch or two in anger, that is forgivable, and an isolated incident; in that situation working towards arrest is significant. A pre-planned knife throw with full mental capacity is completely different.

And if you are emotionally unstable enough to throw a temper tantrum involving deadly weapons over something like this - or at all really - then you should not be part of society. Jail* removes people from society, that is the entire point.

*Technically prison, jail is where you go to await trial.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-23, 09:28 PM

Marnath

2010-09-23, 09:35 PM

Anyone who thinks that way needs help.

Yeah, they do. But they won't get it in jail. Jail doesn't prove anything in the long run, they get out and go right back to whatever they were doing before. which might be plotting revenge for being sent to jail. That might happen anyway, but if that point has already been reached, there's not much help for it beyond a restraining order and maybe getting a big mean dog, whereas if that point hasn't been reached it might be better to not antagonize them. Like I said though, this is all theoretical so I can't know what I'd do. That goes for you too I'd assume, unless you've experienced this. Although I will admit that sending them to jail is probably the most common and reasoned response.

Coidzor

2010-09-23, 09:38 PM

{Scrubbed}

Marnath

2010-09-23, 09:44 PM

Wow, that's really nice coid. I should just go die because you think i'm paranoid?

Mystic Muse

2010-09-23, 09:46 PM

I see more naivete than fear in that statement but I'd be more afraid of the guy coming after me if I didn't do anything.

Thurbane

2010-09-23, 09:51 PM

A butter knife isn't going to be called a knife without further details in this context, and doesn't make sense as the threat anyways. And if the transgression against someone is attempted murder, then once is enough to arrest. If a drunk throws a punch or two in anger, that is forgivable, and an isolated incident; in that situation working towards arrest is significant. A pre-planned knife throw with full mental capacity is completely different.

And if you are emotionally unstable enough to throw a temper tantrum involving deadly weapons over something like this - or at all really - then you should not be part of society. Jail* removes people from society, that is the entire point.

*Technically prison, jail is where you go to await trial.
My whole point is that we simply don't have enough details to leap to too many conclusions. We have no prior history on this person, we only have scant details from a single source, and all in all very little to judge on. It is easy to assume worst case scenario, without knowing all of the facts.

There is a reason trials are held before a jury of 12 people after hearing extensive testimony and evidence, rather than throwing it open to the internet community for judgement after a single post! :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr

2010-09-23, 09:52 PM

Yeah, they do. But they won't get it in jail. Jail doesn't prove anything in the long run, they get out and go right back to whatever they were doing before. which might be plotting revenge for being sent to jail. That might happen anyway, but if that point has already been reached, there's not much help for it beyond a restraining order and maybe getting a big mean dog, whereas if that point hasn't been reached it might be better to not antagonize them. Like I said though, this is all theoretical so I can't know what I'd do. That goes for you too I'd assume, unless you've experienced this. Although I will admit that sending them to jail is probably the most common and reasoned response.

The legal system in most first world countries does not consist solely of jail. Other forms of rehabilitation also exist. I do not pretend to be an expert on them, but I presume those agencies that deal with such things all the time have at least a decent idea of how to deal with such a person better than you or I would.

Ignore it and hope it doesn't get any worse isn't a frequent approach to such things by people who have been highly educated on the subject, so I have to presume it's not a great solution.

Thurbane

2010-09-23, 09:55 PM

...another thing we do not know is the age of the person involved. The legal system is going to look at an underage individual quite differently in this type of incident.

Crossblade

2010-09-23, 09:55 PM

I gotta ask... Marnath, are you the guy that threw the knife? You seem to be putting way to much defense towards the offender.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 10:02 PM

I gotta ask... Marnath, are you the guy that threw the knife? You seem to be putting way to much defense towards the offender.

O.o

No, i'm not! I've never met SoD, nor used a weapon on or threatened a human with a weapon, nor would I. This is a discussion forum, and I play devil's advocate a lot for the benefit of seeing both sides of an argument. I'm NOT arguing this guy needs to go free, I'm saying if it was me who had a knife thrown at him, I might in theory not press charges.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-23, 10:04 PM

Mmm, the avatar does look suspicious. :smallbiggrin:

Marnath

2010-09-23, 10:07 PM

It's from Monthy Python week, I'm too lazy to give it up and go back to a default avvy. :smallcool:

DeltaEmil

2010-09-23, 10:15 PM

Even if it did only lead to minor (flesh-)wounds, the police will keep an eye about the person who threw the knife, right?
In most cases, that alone should keep people from doing such a thing again.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 10:22 PM

Even if it did only lead to minor (flesh-)wounds, the police will keep an eye about the person who threw the knife, right?
In most cases, that alone should keep people from doing such a thing again.

I c wut u did thar. :smalltongue:
But yeah, the police should probably have their eyes on him for a bit even if no charges were filed.

mucat

2010-09-23, 10:29 PM

Exactly, the hope from my standpoint would be that he forgets about the incident and goes on about his life somewhere where I am not. You might think that's a cowards way out,
This. And not because I'm advocating pointless macho behavior, but...

and putting someone else at risk down the line.
...because of this.

On a theoretical level, I don't care as long as I and mine take no harm
Really? Then I hope you are young and this theoretical framework is still a work in progress. Until then, best wishes, but I doubt we will see eye to eye.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 10:34 PM

I'm young yeah, 23. And it very much is a work in progress because i've never faced something like that irl. Lots of things like that get theorized on, like when the person on screen does something and the chainsaw guy gets them, and I sit there thinking how stupid it is that they just didn't do X instead of Y. With no real knowledge of how it is to be in that situation my thoughts on how it would go down may or may not be anywhere close to reality.

Is it better to let the guy off the hook or press charges? I don't know. Might he decide to kill you for it? Yeah, maybe. Anything is possible.

mucat

2010-09-23, 11:13 PM

I agree that if you report a violent person's crimes, they might come after you. If might even be safer, from a personal point of view, to let it slide. (Though it might not, because they might decide that you're a fun and consequence-free target.)

But I figure that if he's close enough to the edge to snap on me, then he would eventually have snapped on someone...and I never want to have to explain to that person or their loved ones that I knew the guy was dangerous, but kept quiet rather than risk trouble.

By the way, I apologize if I sounded condescending before, with the "I hope you're young enough that your philosophy might change" thing. I meant it literally, not as a sneer. It's just that people will often vascillate for a while between a "care for everyone as if they were yourself" philosophy, which is exhausting and unsustainable (if only because there are seven billion of them and one of you), and a "care for no one who isn't close to you personally" approach. With luck, they eventually find an equilibrium point: "here's the level of responsibility I can shoulder for the long run without burning out."

Marnath

2010-09-23, 11:18 PM

I get what you're saying. I'm not offended either, what you said is much more constructive than what some are telling me. After I experience more things I'll probably have a different take on how things like this are done(especially if it happens to me.)

Thurbane

2010-09-23, 11:27 PM

For the record, the person who was attacked in the OP did call the cops, so it's not like the incident wasn't reported...

Coidzor

2010-09-23, 11:36 PM

Wow, that's really nice coid. I should just go die because you think i'm paranoid?

Oh, we were talking about you? And here I thought it was a hypothetical person.

None of us can know how we'd act in the situation without being in it first. What we do know of the thing that happened is so full of holes as to be almost useless.

Hyperbole aside, the point remains, living in fear is no way to live.

Marnath

2010-09-23, 11:41 PM

Hyperbole aside, the point remains, living in fear is no way to live.

I disagree. Paranoia is less than ideal, but people get by with a lot worse.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-23, 11:43 PM

I disagree. Paranoia is less than ideal, but people get by with a lot worse.

True. D&D 4.0, for instance, is much worse than Paranoia.

Edit: The above is humor. It's ok if you're paranoid. D&D 4.0 isn't out to get you. Probably.

Marnath

2010-09-24, 12:02 AM

I meant the mental disorder, not the game system. But you probably already know that. :smallwink:
Suffice it to say, the standard of living for a paranoid person is not as low as some disorders. And saying anyone's life is not worth living is, well, shocking. That's something for everyone to decide on their own.

Dairun Cates

2010-09-24, 12:05 AM

True. D&D 4.0, for instance, is much worse than Paranoia.

Edit: The above is humor. It's ok if you're paranoid. D&D 4.0 isn't out to get you. Probably.

Paranoia is the greatest, most perfect RPG of all time with each edition more perfect than the last. To say otherwise is treason, and requires you to report directly to Friend Computer for "Happy Realignment/Extermination".

Coidzor

2010-09-24, 12:07 AM

I disagree. Paranoia is less than ideal, but people get by with a lot worse.

And those are no way to live either, what's your point? :smalltongue:

And saying anyone's life is not worth living is, well, shocking. That's something for everyone to decide on their own.

You don't understand the expression I'm using, then, I take it?

Because that's not what the expression means.

Awnetu

2010-09-24, 12:09 AM

it totally... to get that this wasn't all in character. and couldn't get why this killed the group.....then it hit me. :smallredface:

In a thread about a player throwing knives, I find this to be slightly ironic.

icefractal

2010-09-24, 12:12 AM

Now to be fair, if this is the American prison system we're talking about, I could see why the OP's friend wouldn't want to send anyone they didn't actually hate there. Some of the prisons here are like a de-facto sentence to be raped and/or shanked.

Cespenar

2010-09-24, 12:31 AM

I don't think arguing this intensely over a subject with such little information at hand is a wise thing to do, but hey, this is the forums.

Coidzor

2010-09-24, 12:37 AM

I don't think arguing this intensely over a subject with such little information at hand is a wise thing to do, but hey, this is the forums.

Are you kidding, the lack of information is WHY we're arguing so intensely. :smallwink:

Haven't started arguing over whether we should be arguing or not though, I think.

Cespenar

2010-09-24, 02:29 AM

Haven't started arguing over whether we should be arguing or not though, I think.

Let's argue over that, then, for starters. :smalltongue:

2xMachina

2010-09-24, 05:09 AM

I don't know...

While throwing knives are more dangerous than throwing books, but without training, you're just as likely to hit someone with the hilt, rather than edge.
And it might also just give you a little cut , and bounce off.

Throwing a knife so that it'll do significant damage isn't so easy.

The Glyphstone

2010-09-24, 05:48 AM

*stirs uncomfortably in his slumber at the potential for forbidden politics/legal discussion*

Reacting to an earlier comment, I'd say this still doesn't quite top Lanky. In Lanky^3, he actually got a knife planted in his leg, not just thrown at him. This is the closest I've seen yet to topping him, though, and I've been here a while.

Starbuck_II

2010-09-24, 06:17 AM

Psyx

2010-09-24, 06:17 AM

Don't you hate it when your day-job intrudes on your hobby... :smallconfused:

Firstly; none of us know enough to actually comment. The circumstances around violent incidents are always clouded, and the fact that I needed to read the account several time to see that it wasn't an IC incident means that it would be unfair to issue psychiatric advice based on it.

Secondly: It is doubtful that the legal system would resort to interment for the first offence of a minor (You justice system may vary...). More likely it would result in counselling and/or a mandatory anger management course. Both of which are a good idea if this was actually a severe episode. Even if no charges are pressed - if this is a friend, then it would be good if all his friends could sit him down and talk him going on such a course (not that you have a mental healthcare system worth a darn from what I hear...). Because next time it might not be a friend who suffers from an outburst, and it ma be a lot more severe in consequence.

Most people with mental illnesses manage to live within the laws just fine. They might not always understand them, but once they are taught them, they will generally respect them. That's the difference between a sociopath and a criminal sociopath.

Marnath

2010-09-24, 07:41 AM

And those are no way to live either, what's your point? :smalltongue:

You don't understand the expression I'm using, then, I take it?

Because that's not what the expression means.

Yes, I must have gotten confused by the whole, people who live in fear like that should just go die thing. So, enlighten me. What does it really mean?:smallconfused:

SoD

2010-09-24, 04:58 PM

Addressing a number of comments

Most people with mental illnesses manage to live within the laws just fine. They might not always understand them, but once they are taught them, they will generally respect them. That's the difference between a sociopath and a criminal sociopath.

Extremely true, I acutally make a living by working with people with mental disabilities, and I've seen a few incidents, but they're typically not aware of what they're doing during these incidents. The DnD 'incident', however, our player was well aware of what was going on, and was perfectly in control of hisself.

So you have someone who honestly doesn't understand why throwing knives at people over something as trivial as a D&D session is wrong and deserving of punishment, and you aren't trying to get him locked up?

Can you explain this to me?

Unfortunatly, seeing as the victim in this incident doesn't want to press charges, there's not much I can directly do, bar warn the cops about him, warn my friends about him, and try to convince my friend otherwise.

SoD: So what about the Wizard and the Fighter? Are they siding with the other guy, or do you at least have those three?

The fighter player is extremely wary of him, but has agreed to be in his next campaign. The wizard player is an old friend of the player, and, while typically not siding with him, will always go back to him. Unfortunatly, our insane player can be extremely charismatic and charming at times...hell, even the victim in this case has talked about the possibility of playing with him again in the future. I myself, when with him, need to keep on reminding myself 'Don't forget. This guy threw a knife, stabbed with a table, kicked in face, etc.'.

FWIW, I don't think throwing someone in jail for what is (hopefully) an isolated incident is neccessarily a good thing.

Not exactly isolated. He's never thrown a knife before, but he has stabbed someone with a table (again, over a DnD argument), he's kicked someone in the face as they entered the living room, etc.

Why is the group dead? Why not just continue without his character?

I intend to, however, with restarting the campaign, there's potentially another player I'll have to drop, finding replacements, etc. it'll effectively be a new group. And I really loved DMing for the characters I had.

What if he holds a grudge?

He won't. It's all part of his nature. Once he'd calmed down, he would've happly welcomed everyone back into his house as if nothing had happened. The way he put it was 'I wasn't angry at [him], just angry in general. [He] just happened to be in the way.' Which he calmly told the police, apparantly.

Starbuck_II

2010-09-24, 05:14 PM

How do you stab with a table?

Mystic Muse

2010-09-24, 05:29 PM

How do you stab with a table?

I don't want to know.:smalleek:using one of the corners maybe?

Coidzor

2010-09-24, 05:51 PM

Ah, so he's a psychopath. Or was it sociopath? :smallconfused:

So, enlighten me. What does it really mean?:smallconfused:

Hmm, explaining English idioms and expressions is always so tiring.

http://blog.learnvest.com/psychology_of_money/money-anxiety-thats-no-way-to-live/ gives some more context.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-24, 06:10 PM

How do you stab with a table?

I hope I never find out.

kyoryu

2010-09-24, 06:29 PM

I'm just gonna say that there are certain things that shouldn't require house rules.

Thurbane

2010-09-24, 07:19 PM

SoD, since you have posted again, can I ask you to answer a couple of questions:

How old is the person in question?
When you say "threw a knife", so you mean threw a sharp/dangerous knife directly at the other person, with the intention of causing harm?
If this person does have a history of violent incident towards his acquaintances, why do people still hang out with him?

Boren

2010-09-24, 09:04 PM

Ok speaking as someone with a degree in criminal justice,
1) throwing a knife at someone within the US would universally be assault in the 1st assault with a deadly weapon, this is a felony charge meaning it is punishable by 1+ year(s) in prison.
2) Most DAs would probably start with an attempted murder charge but then drop it in exchange for plea bargained guilty on the assault
3) This person (the vampire) is in definitive need of a physiological examination and in my opinion extensive counseling. I don't care how attached you are to a character anyone resorting to physical violence of that level over a game has some underling issues that have nothing to do with D&D that need to be dealt with before he hurts someone including possibly himself.
I STRONGLY advise you to make a police report about this incident and let the professionals in these fields handle this. As much as you may think you know this person you do not have the training and experience to make a truly informed judgment about him. Please if for your friends well being if nothing else call the police and let him get the help he needs.

mucat

2010-09-24, 09:19 PM

He won't. It's all part of his nature. Once he'd calmed down, he would've happly welcomed everyone back into his house as if nothing had happened. The way he put it was 'I wasn't angry at [him], just angry in general. [He] just happened to be in the way.' Which he calmly told the police, apparantly.
Then he confessed. They don't need your friend to press charges. If you can't talk some sense into the guy who had the knife thrown at him, or any of those who witnessed it directly, you can still tell the DA's office to get off their asses and do their job.

What should really scare you about the guy is not that he threw the knife, but that he threatened to do so, and then carried through. It wasn't a passing moment of blind emotion; he knew exactly what he was doing.

Ormur

2010-09-24, 10:58 PM

Whoa, comparing it with "That Lanky Bugger" it may not have resulted in as much physical harm but that seemed more like heat of the moment craziness on the girlfriends behalf. This was actually premeditated, not an isolated indecent. The assaulter's apparently calm behaviour afterwards and inability to understand what was wrong about is seems downright psychopathic.

Of course I'm not qualified to judge that and none of us can get the whole picture over the internet, but if the account is accurate I'd never want to meet that person again, much less put myself at risk by playing with him. Somebody qualified to assess the matter, like the authorities really should be notified and I hope you can convince your friends not to play with him again.

Marnath

2010-09-24, 11:05 PM

Hmm, explaining English idioms and expressions is always so tiring.

http://blog.learnvest.com/psychology_of_money/money-anxiety-thats-no-way-to-live/ gives some more context.

That's your arguement? Stress over money problems is NOT equal to paranoia, which is a mental disorder. Quite a different level of problem. It still doesn't answer how you feel justified saying that how a certain person lives isn't worth living.

*edit: I detect a tone of condescention, which isn't terribly helpful either.

Thrawn183

2010-09-24, 11:19 PM

Marnath

2010-09-24, 11:22 PM

Yeah, this is assault with a deadly weapon through and through, on top of a history of violence and an inability to empathize with others. I would argue that it is your moral obligation to make sure this person is sent to prison. To do anything else would be to leave innocent people in his/her path.

My question is, don't the police generally file charges themselves in cases like this, even if the victim asks not to? I was thinking prosecution was automatically required by law for assault with a deadly weapon. Am I mistaken, or are we missing part of the story?

2xMachina

2010-09-24, 11:42 PM

Probably didn't report. Why bother if you're not pressing charges?

Abies

2010-09-24, 11:42 PM

My question is, don't the police generally file charges themselves in cases like this, even if the victim asks not to? I was thinking prosecution was automatically required by law for assault with a deadly weapon. Am I mistaken, or are we missing part of the story?

In the US, short of murder or other crimes where the actual victim is unable to press charges, there needs to be a complaining witness. Otherwise the Constitunial right to face your accusor becomes problematic.

I'll agree again that the individual in discussion is in need of mental health assitance. To not suggest such a course of action as an acquaintance could be construed as negligent.

As a point of curiosity, did anyone in the group point out to the "psycho player" that perhaps his reaction was not appropriate? Education starts at home folks... to not let your own friends and/or acquaintances know that you do not approve of primary assault is negligent on your own behalf.

JonestheSpy

2010-09-24, 11:55 PM

D&D 4.0 isn't out to get you. Probably.

Wizards of the Coast is so out to get you.

Coidzor

2010-09-25, 12:14 AM

That's your arguement?

No, it's a demonstration of the phrase in use.

Marnath

2010-09-25, 12:21 AM

No, it's a demonstration of the phrase in use.

Which varies wildly from when you used it earlier, the time you said I didn't understand how you were using it. You can't say one thing about a mental disorder, and then link to something only tangentially related when someone calls you out on it, saying "I guess you don't understand how that expression works."

Seffbasilisk

2010-09-25, 01:28 AM

From what I've read, a lot of the point was missed.

The guy was incised, made a threat, and when it was not taken seriously, he walked into another room, to show the seriousness of his word. From what I've read, I assume the offending person (the cleric/stand-in-DM) followed him, and forced his hand [in terms, basically that he had to, or lose face.]

Seems hardly the straightforward case.

Additionally, it was said that the only wounds were bite/scratch marks?

Who was biting? That seems a good deal more serious than a knife, thrown, that did not impact.

You could say the knife-thrower requires psychotherapy, but that could be said of just about anyone.

I see this, more as a power-struggle of sorts emerging, the knife-throwing escalating it beyond game-terms, the stand-in-DM continuing the escalation.

Once the knife was thrown, odds are, it could have been degraded from an out and out conflict, but then a struggle for the knife ensued?

If I'm reading this correctly, it seems that the knife-thrower might have believed that the Stand-in-DM would throw it back, but not intentionally miss, as he did.

Once it became a struggle over the knife, the fact that they were playing D&D was irrelevant, and it became a life-and-death power struggle.

One person, likely the calmer and more rational, realized there was no point to this, and let it, and then began the de-escalation of it.

I'm assuming this was the Knife-Thrower, as now, the Stand-In-DM brought in the police.

This, to the Knife-Thrower, was an escalation, when he was already taking steps to downgrade the conflict.

Pressing charges, would just have sealed it in his mind, as an escalation. Now, at least, theres a chance it can be worked out.

SoD

2010-09-25, 06:25 AM

Seffbasilisk

2010-09-25, 12:33 PM

With that, it seems like the Knife-Thrower has some impulse control problems. Likely stemming from, as you said, he's charming and such as he wants to be, so likely could acquire what he wanted, and didn't have to learn to self-regulate.

Biting...that's going a bit far. Last time I bit someone, I was drunk, he was sitting on me, and elbowing me in the throat over and over again, and even then, I warned him and gave him a count-down.

Still is wrong.

If he deliberately missed, and it was obvious, then jumping on the knife, just served to escalate it.

I'd talk to them. It seems like this wasn't the entire thing, and likely just the tip of the iceberg.