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Abies
2010-09-23, 07:06 PM
And it came to pass that our longtime DM decided that the time had come to give 4th edition a try. Despite the lack of immediate enthuiasm from the other players, he's basically decided to be "too busy" to continue either of our other quite servicable 3.5 campaigns until we give 4th a try.

So here we are.

I've decided to go with Warlord as my starting class based on cursory examinations of the basic class descriptions on the WotC website. I have no books or resources at my disposal, and I am not sure exactly what the DM has either, so any suggestions should be pretty basic.

What sort of build would be suggested in order to throw a monkeywrench in the gears of an inexperienced 4e DM? I do not usually try to play this way, but I'd like to get back to the campaign we've been playing (as would the other players).

If I can't really break the game as a Warlord, I guess an effective build will do.

Thanks for any assistance.

mobdrazhar
2010-09-23, 08:23 PM
if you go in with that sort of attitude you won't like it at all. I play both 4e and 3.5 and they are both enjoyable.

The PC classes aren't there to destroy a game they are there to make it balanced.

However if you are still going to be playing then i would suggest get your hands on PHB 1, Martial Power 1 & 2 and look at powers that boost and shift your allies and that also allow them to make attacks. mostly the later

WitchSlayer
2010-09-23, 08:40 PM
Ha ha, silly boy wants to break 4e, with a WARLORD no less.

Have fun with that challenge.

I find using the whip branch of feats is really fun for a leader type, though. If, y'know, you actually want to try and play instead of trying to spite your DM.

Hzurr
2010-09-23, 08:41 PM
What sort of build would be suggested in order to throw a monkeywrench in the gears of an inexperienced 4e DM? I do not usually try to play this way, but I'd like to get back to the campaign we've been playing (as would the other players).

If I can't really break the game as a Warlord, I guess an effective build will do.



Wow....that's...a really bad attitude. Rather than giving the new system a legitimate chance to see if you might enjoy it, instead you're going to try and make the game as un-fun for everyone so that you can get your own way?

:smallsigh:

You're setting yourself up for disapointment. 4E is a really fun system, and while I don't approve of your DM forcing everyone else to play it against their will, I also don't approve of players trying to sabotage.

At any rate, 4E is designed with team-work over individual PC power, and since the Warlord fills the "Leader" roll, your job in the party is to make everyone else more awesome. You're a source of Healing (which isn't a pain like it is in 3.5, because you can still heal and do other things in combat), and you'll have a very dramatic effect on the tactics of the group.

In general, there are a few different ways to play a warlord. One is by doing very little damage & attacking yourself, and setting up your allies to do the big hits (for example, one of the at-wills you can take lets allies hit an enemy instead of you.) Another option is to get involved yourself, and focus more on shifting and sliding enemies around to get superior positioning.

Warlords are primarily melee fighters (with the exception of one ranged build in MP2, if you want to do more of a "lead from the rear" type thing); but I might suggest using a polearm, so that you can attack from behind the front line. (This way you can keep that fighter in front of you, but still be effective).

In my opinion, Dwarves and Half-elves both make very good Warlords, but really any race can be effective at any class (another thing that I feel 4E does much better than 3.5, but not everyone feels this way)

Anyway, those are my 2 cents. And again, try to go into the game with an open mind. You might just find that you'll have a lot of fun, and really enjoy the system.

Urpriest
2010-09-23, 09:00 PM
With limited (but not misinterpreted) rules knowledge it is essentially impossible to break the game in 4e. I'm a fan of 3.5, but you have to accept 4e is a different ballgame, and when people say it's unbreakable, they really mean it. There are a few infinite-attack-loops, but they are murderously tricky to pull off, and they are pretty much all there is on that line.

That said, the biggest challenge for a 4e DM is a player who novas. Get encounter powers that do or enable enough damage to kill at at-level foe and you'll annoy your DM. As a Warlord, your job is enabling. Grant allies attacks, or give them to-hit bonuses. Treasure any scaling to-hit you can scrounge up (or scaling -to AC on enemies), either will warp the game's precisely calibrated attack/defense balance. The biggest thing to remember about 4e is that every d20 roll is calibrated to your level: if you introduce another source of scaling you can usually mess things up, but because of that there are very few such sources.

If you really want to make your DM's life hard you'll pretty much have to use a more sophisticated build requiring in-depth rules knowledge. For a Warlord I recommend googling Ninja Team Leader and Killswitch, both can enable very impressive novas and neutralize key foes on the first turn.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-23, 09:31 PM
And it came to pass that our longtime DM decided that the time had come to give 4th edition a try. Despite the lack of immediate enthuiasm from the other players, he's basically decided to be "too busy" to continue either of our other quite servicable 3.5 campaigns until we give 4th a try.

So here we are.

I've decided to go with Warlord as my starting class based on cursory examinations of the basic class descriptions on the WotC website. I have no books or resources at my disposal, and I am not sure exactly what the DM has either, so any suggestions should be pretty basic.

What sort of build would be suggested in order to throw a monkeywrench in the gears of an inexperienced 4e DM? I do not usually try to play this way, but I'd like to get back to the campaign we've been playing (as would the other players).

If I can't really break the game as a Warlord, I guess an effective build will do.

Thanks for any assistance.The mature way to handle this situation is to not play the game, if you don't want it, and do something better with your time (like reading books, go out with your girlfriend, or learn a new exotic language) {Scrubbed} Being disruptive on purpose won't make the other gm suddenly like the other campaign better with you playing in it.

{Scrubbed}

Respect each another, take your time off, suggest something else, but don't try to break the game out of spite.

Abies
2010-09-23, 09:44 PM
Yes, perhaps "break the game" was not the best choice of verbiage.
I was annoyed when I found out what "We're playing D&D this weekend" meant. (Incidentally this is the first gaming session in 6-7 months).

I and my fellow players pretty much want to get back to our other campaign(s) which have been on hold since the DMs wife (also a player) had her second child. We're all professionals, and at this point family folks with limited opportunities to get together. The fact that this weekend will be (imo) wasted on a new campaign, much less game system, is something I find irksome. So consider this a fresh start to the thread

I don't have any of the books. I have no intention of buying any. I do not know any of the rules. Any pointers on creating a useful, effective character are appreciated.

Yeah my attitude on the matter is {Scrubbed} I know, no need to reiterate common knowlege. I'm playing to do something an old frined wants to. Might be great fun, we'll see.

Grynning
2010-09-23, 09:45 PM
I loved playing a Warlord as my first 4th ed character, and I think if you give it a chance you might like it too. 4th is just like any other game; it's as fun as you make it. Sure, you can get tired of it too, but for something new it's hardly a punishment to be playing it.

This guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22579049/Chasing_Glory:_The_Warlords_Handbook) is really useful, I'd check it out. Also, if you don't have any books, spend just a little money and buy 1 month of subscription to DDI and get the character builder. It has EVERYTHING you need to build a character, including every book, and all you lose by not keeping the subscription active are updates. Spending 20 bucks to get the mechanics for every book that's out right now is a bargain IMO.
*PS did I mention you can install it 3 times as well? This means that your group can have just one person invest in it, install it on 3 computers, and everyone can share.

WitchSlayer
2010-09-23, 09:57 PM
Even better, you could get everyone to chip in for a DDI subscription, because it allows 5 people for a single account, aka a group of four and a DM. Don't worry too much about effectiveness, just look through the powers that jump out to you and that you like and get those.

Abies
2010-09-23, 10:00 PM
{Scrubbed}

mobdrazhar
2010-09-23, 10:12 PM
is there any reaasdon you don't want to play 4e other than you just want to get back to your other campaign?

Edit: just saw your second post

Surrealistik
2010-09-23, 10:21 PM
Don't feed the troll kids.

Abies
2010-09-23, 10:23 PM
is there any reaasdon you don't want to play 4e other than you just want to get back to your other campaign?

I and the other players have seen the source books, and from our cursory examination have agreed that its a dumbed-down game. For the most part we're less a mechanics based group, so I fail to see the need for a totally new system.

We've done the "novel" game session in the past, but that was when we had far more frequent times available to play.

Heck, we spent a month playing grey box D&D three years ago after my uncle gave me all of the original booklets. Nothing like playing a "fighting man" or "elf" as a player class.

Its been advertised that we're 2-3 games away from "finishing up the campaign" for ever now. Sorry, but I actually want to see my guy ride off into the sunset or die heroicly. Been waiting on that for the better part of a year now.

So I guess I'm just old and new things frighten and anger me.

Mando Knight
2010-09-23, 10:27 PM
In my opinion, Dwarves and Half-elves both make very good Warlords, but really any race can be effective at any class (another thing that I feel 4E does much better than 3.5, but not everyone feels this way)

Eladrin are better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter). Racial +Int and Eladrin Soldier (as well as +Cha as an option if playing with access to the Essentials series' racial modifiers) are both sweet deals for the Tactical Warlord, as well as an Eladrin TacLord exclusive feat that allows them to add their Int modifier to the healing granted by Inspiring Word.

Guancyto
2010-09-23, 10:43 PM
The demo for the Character Builder is available for free on WotC's site. If you're starting at level 1 (and you probably are), this is your best bet for getting away with not having books.

That said. It's possible to (mechanically) blindside your DM in 4e, but you sure as **** aren't going to be doing it at level 1. Or on your own, especially with a Leader class whose biggest and best weapon is his party.

Edit: Download link (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/tool/characterbuilder). Enjoy!

Abies
2010-09-23, 10:53 PM
Thank those who have offered useful advice thus far. Apparently I'll be teaming with an Eladin Wizard and a Dragonborn Paladin. At least one more PC to be determined (though if my brother is keeps in character it will be a less than optimal choice. Love the guy, but he plays the worst characters, even RP-wise)

Sorry for the negative vibe early on, the more I read, the more excited I am to play 4e at least in the short term. Looks like I'll do whatever I can to enhance the defence and healing of my team (like I ususally do) while looking for those abilities/opportunities to disable enemies. Just wish I knew what feats or skills to pick up (if those terms even still mean anything).

mobdrazhar
2010-09-23, 10:59 PM
feats i'm not too sure about however skill wise just train yourself in whichever you wish... you could fill gaps on what the rest of that party isn't trained in or you could just go whatever looks most appealing to you.

Grynning
2010-09-23, 11:01 PM
Skill choice is super-simple in 4th; you're kind of limited by your class but it's easy to pick which ones you want most of the time.
As far as feats go, one you should always grab is Weapon Expertise with your chosen weapon group (for warlords that's usually Heavy Blades or Polearms). After that, stick with Racial or Class-only feats. Narrows your pool to pick from (since there are a TON of feats in 4th and it can be overwhelming) and most of them are pretty good. The guide I linked earlier gives you a rundown on the most optimal feats to grab as well as some combos that can be set up.

WitchSlayer
2010-09-23, 11:21 PM
Thank those who have offered useful advice thus far. Apparently I'll be teaming with an Eladin Wizard and a Dragonborn Paladin. At least one more PC to be determined (though if my brother is keeps in character it will be a less than optimal choice. Love the guy, but he plays the worst characters, even RP-wise)

Sorry for the negative vibe early on, the more I read, the more excited I am to play 4e at least in the short term. Looks like I'll do whatever I can to enhance the defence and healing of my team (like I ususally do) while looking for those abilities/opportunities to disable enemies. Just wish I knew what feats or skills to pick up (if those terms even still mean anything).

Eh, you can afford to take less than optimal choices for flavor reasons, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Katana_Geldar
2010-09-23, 11:24 PM
Even better, you could get everyone to chip in for a DDI subscription, because it allows 5 people for a single account, aka a group of four and a DM. Don't worry too much about effectiveness, just look through the powers that jump out to you and that you like and get those.

Just don't buy one until the start of October, Wizards hasn't upated this month.

Mando Knight
2010-09-23, 11:27 PM
Just don't buy one until the start of October, Wizards hasn't upated this month.

It does in four days, I've heard...

WitchSlayer
2010-09-23, 11:33 PM
It does in four days, I've heard...

They better

OR SO HELP ME

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-09-23, 11:41 PM
Here's a fun (albeit atypical) build I like to call David Xanatos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttB3neLvNCo):

Human
Hybrid Psion/Warlord
Discipline Focus (Hybrid) Telepathy
Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord Fortitude
Hybrid Power Point Option

Attributes: (Human +2 went to Int)
10 Str
12 Con
10 Dex
18 Int
10 Wis
16 Cha

Skills:
Bluff
Diplomacy
Intimidate
Insight/Perception

Feats:
(Human) Superior Implement Training (Crystal Orb)
(lvl 1) Implement Expertise (Orbs)

Powers:
At Will:
Commander's Strike
Direct the Strike
Mind Thrust
Daily:
Destructive Surprise

Gear:
The only vital piece of gear I push for this silly build is the Crystal Orb. It ups your potential DPR, and helps quite a bit in the event that you switch out Mind Thrust for Betrayal at level three.

With this build, the battlefield becomes your chess board. By level three, you can even determine some of what your enemies do. Off the battle field, you are set up for being the party face. The toss up between the last two skills on the list really boils down to which is more important to your character: enemies physically slipping past you, or verbally pulling the wool over your eyes.

Grynning
2010-09-23, 11:43 PM
That build has a major flaw, in that eventually you will have to take some warlord encounter and daily powers...which all require STRENGTH to hit with. No point in being a hybrid if you're not going to use half of your powers. This is a common mistake people make with hybrid builds, and one reason that they're not recommended for new players.

Jaidu
2010-09-23, 11:43 PM
Warlords are a fun, versatile class that is among the most appreciated party members in the game. I would second Weapon Expertise, but if you can, use the new Expertise feats in Heroes of the Fallen Lands that not only give the +1 to attack, but improve something else that typically relates to the weapons. Axes reroll the first 1 on damage rolls, spears do extra damage when charging, etc. There's also a feat that boosts all weapon attack rolls, in case you don't want to limit yourself to one.

I've seen all manner of warlords played effectively, and I would say they're one of the most usefull teammates in a game that has a lot of useful teammates.

Jaidu
2010-09-23, 11:49 PM
That build has a major flaw, in that eventually you will have to take some warlord encounter and daily powers...which all require STRENGTH to hit with. No point in being a hybrid if you're not going to use half of your powers. This is a common mistake people make with hybrid builds, and one reason that they're not recommended for new players.

This is just not true.

Low level warlord powers that don't require a strength attack:
Level 1, Encounter:
Overwhelming Force Trap
Powerful Warning
Provocative Order
Vengeance is Mine

Level 1, Daily:
Destructive Surprise
Lamb to the Slaughter

Level 5 Daily:
A Rock and a Hard Place
Scent of Victory


By the rules of hybridization, you only need one of your three Encounter or Daily attacks to come from the Warlord side.

Abies
2010-09-23, 11:54 PM
Here's a fun (albeit atypical) build I like to call David Xanatos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttB3neLvNCo):

Cool stuff.

You're my hero. I doubt the game will last past lvl 4-5, and this is just what I was looking for. You have my eternal thanks (or eternal as long as I might live, which might be quite short... I guess "My thanks" would do).

Grynning
2010-09-24, 12:00 AM
Except that build would have to take a Warlord Encounter power at level 3, ALL of which are STR attacks. They'd run into the same issue again eventually.

I guess they could take the level 1 encounter powers, true, it's still limiting the build in kind of a silly way. It'd be better off as a half-elf psion, using the Dilettante ability to pick up Direct the Strike and maybe multiclassing into Warlord.

Grynning
2010-09-24, 12:01 AM
Double post, sorry.

Jaidu
2010-09-24, 12:02 AM
Why would it? It's a hybrid. Take a warlord power at level 1, psion at-will at level 3.

Also, I checked level by level, and ONLY level 3 has all strength attacks. There are options that don't require them for every other level.

Edit: Ah, just saw... THAT particular build would have to. But the psion/warlord without one is still possible.

Grynning
2010-09-24, 12:12 AM
I messed around in CB, and that build can work. I apologize to Hadrian if I sounded over-critical.
However, I do still think it's a bit wacky and complex to suggest to someone trying 4th for the first time. Sticking with a straight Warlord would probably be easier.

DragonBaneDM
2010-09-24, 12:21 AM
Dragonborn Bravura Warlord.

Really pumps out the damage and has a great amount of healing. Buffing's good too, but you'll need something to help with saving throws.

See if you can get a DragonMark from Eberron, or reflavor the feat bonus.

Have fun!

Grynning
2010-09-24, 12:23 AM
Damn, double post again. Is it just me or is the board being wonky tonight?

Abies
2010-09-24, 12:47 AM
Damn, double post again. Is it just me or is the board being wonky tonight?

You're cursed

Forevermore Grynning shall double post... /EvilLaugh Mwahhahhahahahahah

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-09-24, 04:04 AM
Grynning:
:smalltongue:

I have assembled the build from 1-30 and, while pretty shy of optimal, it has been hilarious when put into practice. Allies enjoy the buffs/extra actions and DMs are faced with a strange character that actually engages them on a metagame level. (Besides, you're playing Xanatos for pete's sake!) I take no offense at the critique, and understand that the concept is an unusual one. :smallbiggrin:


Abies:
You're very welcome. If you'd like, I can post up power suggestions for character advancement to level 5 as well. As I confirmed to Grynning, this is not supposed to be a peak performer, but it's not ineffective by any means and was a heck of a lot of fun for my people in play. Given the hostile nature of your first post, I figured you were in need for something distractingly pleasant to turn this scenario around. :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2010-09-24, 04:27 AM
That build has a major flaw, in that eventually you will have to take some warlord encounter and daily powers...which all require STRENGTH to hit with.
That depends on which books are available. If your DM allows Martial Power 2 and Dragon Magazine, then a viable (and hilarious) build is the LazyLord, which is a warlord that never makes an attack roll.

You don't have to fight if you have people that do it for you :smallbiggrin: