PDA

View Full Version : Ways to turn into a dragon for a long time



Analytica
2010-09-23, 07:38 PM
Under D&D 3.5, are there any good ways for spellcasters of level 10-12 or so to be able to transform into large or bigger dragons for extended periods of time (being able, for instance, to fly long distances)?

Dragon wildshape is limited in size. Persisting Dragonshape through some Incantatrixy trickery maybe? Or are there better spells for this?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-23, 07:42 PM
Polymorph any object into a dragon, then cast it again, the change now is permanent, oh and you get the int score so change into a gold dragon:smallamused:


Note: Don't do this, it breaks the game and is cheesy beyond baator

137ben
2010-09-23, 07:45 PM
Plus it doesn't work if you DM is using any remotely effective polymorph rules.

Mystic Muse
2010-09-23, 07:52 PM
Don't use incantatrix. It's all kinds of wrong.

Is this a character that already exists or one that you're making? because if it's one that you're making I know of a homebrew dragon class or ten that aren't gamebreaking. At least nowhere near as gamebreaking as Incantatrix or Polymorph cheese.

Analytica
2010-09-23, 07:59 PM
Thus far it's just a thought experiment. I am mainly curious if it can be done without homebrew, I'm afraid.

Polymorph any object was one idea, but that ties off of Polymorph, with a 15 HD limit, right?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-23, 08:03 PM
Here is the relevant text, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)apparently it does have the HD limit, but I think that 15 HD are enough for a good form

Analytica
2010-09-23, 08:13 PM
Well, there are some Large dragons at 15 HD, but their Intelligence scores are relatively limited.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-23, 08:16 PM
hmmm I am stumpted....maybe using that feat of dragonlance that breaks the CL limitation....reserves of strength IRRC

Marnath
2010-09-23, 08:28 PM
For the purposes of this thought experiment, is it not worth mentioning that actual dragons are technically playable, having a listed LA?

Flickerdart
2010-09-23, 08:30 PM
For the purposes of this thought experiment, is it not worth mentioning that actual dragons are technically playable, having a listed LA?
The listed LA of dragons is awful (most LAs also don't let you grow Large), and their abilities also suck for their hit dice.

Marnath
2010-09-23, 08:33 PM
The listed LA of dragons is awful (most LAs also don't let you grow Large), and their abilities also suck for their hit dice.

Well, yeah, I never said it would be a good idea. :smalltongue:


For the purposes of this thought experiment, is it not worth mentioning that actual dragons are technically playable, having a listed LA?

I suppose I didn't emphasize this part of my point properly, sorry. :smallfrown:

mobdrazhar
2010-09-23, 08:33 PM
Druid into Planar Shepherd :smallwink:

Volos
2010-09-23, 08:44 PM
Why be a dragon when you can control them? Use roleplay to force a dragon to do you bidding.

Analytica
2010-09-23, 08:50 PM
Why be a dragon when you can control them? Use roleplay to force a dragon to do you bidding.

Flavor thing. :smallsmile:

MachineWraith
2010-09-23, 09:04 PM
Why be a dragon when you can control them? Use roleplay to force a dragon to do you bidding.

Why anger an ancient and immensely powerful being by blackmailing it when you can get its powers by transforming into one?

Jack_Simth
2010-09-23, 09:10 PM
Under D&D 3.5, are there any good ways for spellcasters of level 10-12 or so to be able to transform into large or bigger dragons for extended periods of time (being able, for instance, to fly long distances)?

Dragon wildshape is limited in size. Persisting Dragonshape through some Incantatrixy trickery maybe? Or are there better spells for this?

Let's see...

Persisting Dragonshape: Bad idea. Really. Doable, and will work, but is rather cheesy (due primarily to the meta-magic reducers that will be crazy-useful for other things, too), and thus, not 'good'. Could work, though.

Anything that nets you the Dragon type lets Alter Self do the job (is 10 minutes/level sufficient?).

A Druid-5/Master of Many Forms-10 (Complete Adventurer) can use Wild Shape to become a Dragon... but that's higher level than you wanted.

Edit:
Oh, hey - if you can find a dragon, push the Dragon's will save down far enough (Will DC 23 negates this strategy... trivial, for a standard Dragon), you're a Psion(Telepath), and you can afford a powerstone of True Mind Switch (which costs 53,825 gp, market), and you can make the manifester level check (or push your manifester level high enough that it doesn't matter) you've got it made.

Marnath
2010-09-23, 09:14 PM
Half dragon gives the Dragon type. So a human half dragon could use alter self that way. Or you could skip the middle man and use something like ogre with that template and have your own wings. Although the combined LA from ogre and template would suck, +3 with human is bad enough. Although I reduce the LA from halfdragon. My reasoning is, that if it makes them suck so bad no one ever uses the template, then the cost is obviously too high.

Lysander
2010-09-23, 11:10 PM
Not transform per se and not quite as good, but if you capture a dragon you can possess its body with Magic Jar.

And this is higher level than you want and its psionics, but True Mind Switch will let you permanently occupy a dragon's body. Theoretically you don't need to be a Telepath yourself though, Just play musical body chairs. Telepath switches body with a dragon. Then Dragon Telepath switches bodies with you. Then Telepath In Your Body exchanges bodies with Dragon in Telepath's Body. Final result, you're permanently a dragon and the dragon is permanently in your body.

Mando Knight
2010-09-24, 12:38 AM
Well, there are some Large dragons at 15 HD, but their Intelligence scores are relatively limited.

Not a problem if you're a Sorcerer or Cleric (Trickery 8), since you gain only the Intelligence score of the new form... and your spellcasting is based off of Cha or Wis. Unfortunately, if you use PaO, your new form lacks a particularly important set of abilities: nothing listed as (Ex) that's not an attack (the only (Ex) attacks that any of the True Dragons have are limited to Huge and larger anyway) or any (Su) and (Sp) abilities are gained through PaO.

Alleran
2010-09-24, 12:48 AM
Oh, hey - if you can find a dragon, push the Dragon's will save down far enough (Will DC 23 negates this strategy... trivial, for a standard Dragon), you're a Psion(Telepath), and you can afford a powerstone of True Mind Switch (which costs 53,825 gp, market), and you can make the manifester level check (or push your manifester level high enough that it doesn't matter) you've got it made.
The problem with True Mind Switch is that you don't get any of the supernatural abilities of the new form (though you do get all the extraordinary ones, as well as STR, DEX and CON and various other things), so if you want Alternate Form, Breath Weapons, or stuff like Cloudwalking (or Luck Bonus, or Detect Gems, etc.) then you'll need to use the Assume Supernatural Ability feat from Savage Species. Just a minor flaw in what is otherwise... supremely awesomely powerful. Provided you can find, say, a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon to swap bodies with (or, to go one better, a Great Wyrm Prismatic/Time Dragon, but getting their Will saves down to manageable numbers is nigh-impossible to do pre-epic, let alone finding one and suckering them in the first place).

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 02:42 AM
Gate, you can order a gated character to fail their will save.

So just gate in a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

JeminiZero
2010-09-24, 03:19 AM
Anything that nets you the Dragon type lets Alter Self do the job (is 10 minutes/level sufficient?).

Dragonwrought Kobold?

Not sure if Alter Self would work though, since its limited to 5 HD. Not even enough for a Wyrmling, I think.

Actually, the following might work:
1) Take a Kobold
2) Take Dragonwrought + Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings.
3) At 12 HD you have 30 ft overland fly speed.

You are for all intents and purposes, a true Dragon that can fly long distances. You are still stuck with Kobold's small size, but you have 12 class levels to sort that out. PsyWay can give you Augmented Expansion to increase yourself to large size.

Malbordeus
2010-09-24, 03:48 AM
Dragon wildshape?

low level I cant see any easy ways... oooh! Magic Jar! make a permanent items of this to swap your soul into a dragon! you may have to do somehting really nasty first in order to get its saves down...

hamishspence
2010-09-24, 03:59 AM
Gate, you can order a gated character to fail their will save.

So just gate in a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

In Tome of Fiends, this issue is raised, and "failing their will save" is treated as something no being is willing to do- they are fully aware of that potential consequence. That said, it's a homebrew source on D&Dwiki that was probably created in response to this sort of thing.

I think there's a polymorph spell that specifically turns you into a red dragon only, in Complete Mage.

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 04:08 AM
They don't have to be willing. If an action can be accomplished in under rounds/CL then they will obey. You can order them to die, to attack themselves, to sell their soul, to do anything and so long as they can accomplish it under the immediate service time limit then by RAW they do it.

It's one of the reasons that Gate is unarguably the most broken spell in the entire game.

Accersitus
2010-09-24, 04:31 AM
Scroll of Shapechange, (to become a Dragon with up to 17HD, would
suggest Juvenile Gold/silver Dragon if int is important)
Scroll of Polymorph any object, (To become essentially the same dragon,
and this should be permanent since Shapechange actually changes your type).

Depends a lot on how your DM rules it though. What hapens to the PaO casting
when the duration of Shapechange runs out. Is the duration effected
after casting?
You would lose the supernatural abilities granted by Shapechange when the
duration ran out, but you would regain your own. Any fun supernatural abilities
to have as a Dragon? :D

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 04:51 AM
Duration and conditions are only checked upon initial casting.

Otherwise getting hit with something that dropped your CL would reduce all of your currently active buffs, etc.

That's also why you can die, have Symbol of Death (with an immunity password) cast on your forehead, have SoD made permanent, be ressed, used the SoD immunity password, and now have a death Aura. :D

Shrink Item is also fun, but that requires funky shenanigans to cast it on your own body while dead. The best way to do it is use clone, cast it on the Clone body, and then die. :smallwink:

FelixG
2010-09-24, 04:53 AM
The problem with True Mind Switch is that you don't get any of the supernatural abilities of the new form (though you do get all the extraordinary ones, as well as STR, DEX and CON and various other things), so if you want Alternate Form, Breath Weapons, or stuff like Cloudwalking (or Luck Bonus, or Detect Gems, etc.) then you'll need to use the Assume Supernatural Ability feat from Savage Species. Just a minor flaw in what is otherwise... supremely awesomely powerful. Provided you can find, say, a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon to swap bodies with (or, to go one better, a Great Wyrm Prismatic/Time Dragon, but getting their Will saves down to manageable numbers is nigh-impossible to do pre-epic, let alone finding one and suckering them in the first place).

Well, if you can find a way to immobilize it, cast it a few dozen times, it will sooner or later roll a 1 :P

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 05:03 AM
Well, if you can find a way to immobilize it, cast it a few dozen times, it will sooner or later roll a 1 :P

The easiest way, and the way that the DM will probably have the least problem with, is to beat one down to negative HP without actually killing it. Then you stabilize it.

Now you have all day to work on True Mind Switching it before it begins to heal.

It also fits thematically, the individual defeating the great and powerful dragon in combat to steal it's power.

Kristoss
2010-09-24, 08:56 AM
The easiest way, and the way that the DM will probably have the least problem with, is to beat one down to negative HP without actually killing it. Then you stabilize it.

Now you have all day to work on True Mind Switching it before it begins to heal.

It also fits thematically, the individual defeating the great and powerful dragon in combat to steal it's power.

The problem here is TMS costs 10,000 xp per cast. So even a 20th level character won't have the spare XP to cast the 10 or so times it takes to roll a 1. Probably the gated dragon is the best bet so far.

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 09:44 AM
The problem here is TMS costs 10,000 xp per cast. So even a 20th level character won't have the spare XP to cast the 10 or so times it takes to roll a 1. Probably the gated dragon is the best bet so far.
Meh, that's what Thought Bottles are for.

Besides, an unconscious character is automatically considered willing and thus gets no saving throw.

Kristoss
2010-09-25, 04:08 AM
Meh, that's what Thought Bottles are for.

Besides, an unconscious character is automatically considered willing and thus gets no saving throw.

I think your mixing up "Voluntarily giving up a Saving throw" and automatically being considered willing when Unconscious and the target of a spell that specifies willing targets only.
See here Target or Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets) and here Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow).

On the other hand thought bottles would be effective in offsetting the XP lost.

FelixG
2010-09-25, 04:46 AM
Could also buy an item with say 20 charges or so on it with the desired spell so you can just spam it that way until something rolls a 1

WinWin
2010-09-25, 05:22 PM
I think there is the assume supernatural ability feat.

Polymorph into an Intellect Devourer. Crawl into the dragons brain. The duration of Body Thief should supercede the duration of polymorph.

Now all you need is a helpless dragon...

true_shinken
2010-09-25, 08:08 PM
Dragon Wildshape was already mentioned. It's the best way to do this.