Advice on Bards...and starting at levels higher than 3

[Crosswinds]

So, long story short, I'm looking to join a game that starts off at 8th Level. Now, having never started anywhere above 3rd, and having never had a free pass to magic-mart handed to me, I'm having trouble with the plethora of options available to my on which to spend my hard-earned 30,000 GP.

In addition, I decided to try something new in the form of a bard this time around. Now, I'm used to playing sneaky characters, (Rogue, Factotum, scout, etc), and the bard is totally lost on me. Since the campaign promises to have lots of combat, I need a bard build that will help me be decent in combat, if not spectacular.

So, playground, I pose these questions to you:

What's a decent bard build starting at level 8, and progressing toward level 20? All books are allowed, but no homebrew. Any PrC is fair game. I'd like to focus on buffing the party, as well as bardic music.

In a similar vein, what would be good items to spend my shiny 30k GP on?

Thanks in advance.

[CirclesAllOver]

If you are planning on using Inspire Courage, the Badge of Valor from Magic Item Compendium is great. Also, a +x Charisma item as well.

[Eldariel]

With a Bard, you need to make a choice: What combat aspect do you focus on? You can build a Bard to be:
- A respectable spellcaster
- A superb buffer (Bardic Music)
- A respectable combatant (melee or range)

But not all of the above, especially due to the sparsity of feats (and the fact that they generally want different prestige classes).


Your focus of course determines what items you'll want too (beyond the obvious Charisma-booster), though they do enable you to dabble a bit more; you can get some Inspire Courage-boosts there, some stat boosts, some martial boosts and some casting bonuses along with a Wand here or there (Use Magic Device in class).

[Crosswinds]

Ahh, right.

I amended the op, but I'd like to focus on buffs and bardic music.

[Eldariel]

Alright. A short list of thingies:
- You'll want straight Bard at least up until now. No PrC really advances Bardic Music and casting as well as the core class. On level 10, consider multiclassing to Virtuoso [Complete Adventurer] and then Sublime Chord [Complete Arcane] and continuing Virtuoso (advancing Sublime Chord-casting) after 2 levels of Sublime Chord. But for now, Bard 8. Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 is the gold standard. Inspire Greatness is a very useful song; increases HD cap for spells like Polymorph, makes you more resistant to various HD-based spells that are otherwise extremely brutal and of course, comes with free HP and stuff. That makes Bard 9 a good breakpoint; you get all the songs you want.
- Feats to boost Inspire Courage:

Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings]: It's a must. Improves all songs by 1 point; just take it.
Words of Creation : If you qualify, it's an insane boost [b]doubling your bonuses. It's got high prerequisites (including being Exalted) and costs (non-lethal damage each time you use Music) though.
Dragonfire Inspiration [Dragon Magic]: Now, this requires Dragonblooded race but the book has Dragonblooded versions of most standard races, and any race can become Dragonborn of Bahamut [Races of the Dragon]. This changes your Inspire Courage from +X/+X to +Xd6 energy damage. Best of all, this stacks with normal Inspire so you can get truly superb damage bonuses from the combo.
Lingering Song [Complete Adventurer]: Increases the duration of your song-effects by 5 rounds after you stop singing (normally they only last 5 rounds; this increases that to 10). I'm not a huge fan since generally encounters don't last that long, at least in the "dire trouble"-state. Still, pick for yourself.
Melodic Casting [Complete Mage]: Normally you can't cast while singing. This fixes that little detail.


There's also items:

Vest of Legends [Dungeon Master's Guide II]: Increases all your song bonuses as if you were a Bard of 5 levels higher. Also stuff for Leadership and such if you happen to run with those.
Badge of Valor [Magic Item Compendium]: As covered above, a must.
Mw. Instrument [Complete Adventurer]: Pick one with bonuses to offensive Inspire Courage, preferably.


And then spell called "Inspirational Boost" [Spell Compendium]. Combine all those for truly impressive Inspire Courage (and some nice abilities from Inspire Greatness and Dragonfire Inspiration too). Haunting Melody [Eberron Campaign Settings] makes your songs double as debuffs too if interested.

And then, just pick buffy spells along with some control, boost your Charisma (and Constitution, Dexterity and Intelligence as necessary) with items, consider Circlet of Rapid Casting [Magic Item Compendium] (though to Quicken your spells, you need "Rapid Metamagic"-feat from Complete Arcane; stupid stuff related to spontaneous casting) and definitely pick up a Healing Belt [Magic Item Compendium], along with some Wands of Lesser Vigor [Spell Compendium] and other Wands to taste. Level 1 Wands are only 750gp so you can get a lot. Don't forget essentials like Heward's Handy Haversack and company. Also consider Extend Spell-feat if you using more spell-based buffs.

[Crosswinds]

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Many thanks!

[El Dorado]

Bard's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook) has some useful info.

Oh, and this Inspire Courage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization)thread is worth looking at.

As far as items, you can't go wrong with a mithral shirt and a mithral buckler. A crystal echoblade (from the MIC) is one of the best bard melee weapons if you're not committed to Weapon Finesse. Cloak of Charisma is an obligatory purchase. Hat of Disguise and Boots of Striding and Springing can be fun.

Bread and butter spells: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation; Grease, Inspirational Boost, Silent Image; Bladeweave, Invisibility, Mirror Image; Charm Monster, Displacement, Haste.

[Optimator]

In addition, I decided to try something new in the form of a bard this time around. Now, I'm used to playing sneaky characters, (Rogue, Factotum, scout, etc), and the bard is totally lost on me.

Bards get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, as well as being able to learn Silence, Sculpt Sound, Invisibility, the greater version thereof, Mislead, and a host of illusion spells. Though they don't get Hide in Plain Sight or Camouflage, few classes have more sneaking potential.

[Gabe the Bard]

Hi there. It's my first time posting, but I've been playing a Bard for a couple of months, so I'd like to give some input (sorry if this gets a bit long-winded).

You should absolutely get Harmonize. It's a 2nd-level spell from Races of Stone that lets you use bardic music as a move action. It lasts for 1 minute/level, so you can probably cast it before battle.

If you use Words of Creation, you may want Refreshment, a 3rd-level spell in Book of Exalted Deeds that cures ALL nonlethal damage.

There's also Elation in Book of Exalted Deeds, which gives +2 morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity for 1 round/level. It's not essential, but it's nice because it stacks with everything else.

If you're going for an uber buffer, you may want to talk to your group ahead of time about how much buffing you plan to do. If you have just Song of the Heart and Words of Creation, you can give +10 bonus to attack with your bardic music alone by 9th level. Some folks may want to get Power Attack if they don't have it already.

I played an uber buffer for a while. It ate up all of my feats and spells, and I was doing only buffing during combat, but it was still a lot of fun. However, the DM reacted by giving the party less treasure, seeing as how we were getting along without it, and throwing nastier encounters at us.

[KitTheOdd]

While it won't increase bardic music other than IC or casting, a crusader or warblade (ToB) can stack those levels with bard levels for IC with the Song of the White Raven feat. It also allows you to start IC as a swift action rather than a free action. Even a 1 level dip could provide some extra melee options.

At 8th level:

Bard 4/Warblade 4 would have access to 2nd level spells, 3rd level maneuvers, 2 stances, and +2 IC

Bard 7/Warblade 1 would have access to 3rd level spells, 2nd level maneuvers, and +2 IC

If you are focused on spells, and other bardic music you mat still find the ability to start IC as a swift useful. You could even grab the prerequisite White Raven Maneuver with a feat rather than a class level, but that's a lot of feats for the effect.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, if you are optimizing your Inspire Courage, starting it as a swift action is a BAD thing. You need your swift action to cast Inspirational Boost, and you need the swift action of the turn AFTER this one to activate your Badge of Valor as an immediate action. That means that your swift actions for 2 straight rounds are eaten up, but for a VERY good cause.

If you start IC as a swift action, you lose out on the ability to cast Inspirational Boost, a really important part of the standard IC buff routine. This is generally not something you really want.

[tyckspoon]

Somewhere there is a fairly cheap pair of gloves that lets you add your Cha mod as fire damage to your attacks. It's a really obvious item for a melee bard.. unfortunately I can't remember the exact name or which book, so I'm having a hell of a time searching it out. >.<

[Tyger]

Somewhere there is a fairly cheap pair of gloves that lets you add your Cha mod as fire damage to your attacks. It's a really obvious item for a melee bard.. unfortunately I can't remember the exact name or which book, so I'm having a hell of a time searching it out. >.<

OOOoooohhhhh! If anyone knows these, please speak up! My fire themed DFI bard would love to have a pair of these!

[Keld Denar]

Gautlets of Heartfelt Blows. Its fire damage, IIRC, if it matters. They are in some Dragon Magazine or another. You could probably find them with a bit of googling around.

[Tyger]

Gautlets of Heartfelt Blows. Its fire damage, IIRC, if it matters. They are in some Dragon Magazine or another. You could probably find them with a bit of googling around.

Dang. Thanks Keld, but our group has a long standing rule about Dragon Magazine stuff... we don't allow it. Darn. Would have been nice.

[Fax Celestis]

As far as items, you can't go wrong with a mithral shirt and a mithral buckler. A crystal echoblade (from the MIC) is one of the best bard melee weapons if you're not committed to Weapon Finesse.

Can't you make it feycrafted (DMG-II) to make it finessable?

[Tyger]

Can't you make it feycrafted (DMG-II) to make it finessable?

And to add to Fax's point, where is it written that the Crystal Echoblade has to be a longsword? Why not a Crystal Echoblade in dagger or rapier form?

[El Dorado]

Can't you make it feycrafted (DMG-II) to make it finessable?


And to add to Fax's point, where is it written that the Crystal Echoblade has to be a longsword? Why not a Crystal Echoblade in dagger or rapier form?

I'm sure one or both would be possible. I was just pointing out the item.

[Endarire]

Inspire Courage. Inspire Courage. Inspire Courage.

Ahem.

Let's break down Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8334.0) to show what goodness you can get.

I advise mixing Bard with Crusader (Tome of Battle), Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle), and Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) for some uberness.

Also consider the advice given here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8364.0) about a similar build.

[Starbuck_II]

Gautlets of Heartfelt Blows. Its fire damage, IIRC, if it matters. They are in some Dragon Magazine or another. You could probably find them with a bit of googling around.

They appear to be wrote here at this wiki:
http://www.big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/index.php?title=Memento_Mori

[Doug Lampert]

Ahh, right.

I amended the op, but I'd like to focus on buffs and bardic music.

Bard is CL=class level. This means you can "waste" one feat on Craft Wondrous Item, and get your charisma booster at 1/2 price + less than the XP from one encounter. (Worst case you pay someone else to cast the prerequisite spell. It's allowed and the cost is trivial compared to the savings).

Don't bother with this if anyone else in the party is getting craft feats.

Same idea for arms and armor. If no one in the party can craft them then picking it up for your level 6 feat is worth it in the long run. You do your own gear, and then you offer to do the rest of the party for 70% of nominal cost XP is a river, GP are a long term boost, gear for the rest of the party is often one of the most powerful buffs you can offer. (Remembering that you can upgrade existing gear and can cooperate with others for prerequisites).

You do NOT want to take two crafting feats unless that's a major part of your schtick. You do NOT want to duplicate anyone else's crafting feat.

But a party is far stronger with at least one Arms and Armor guy and at least one Wondrous item guy. I'd guess that by value 70-80% of the magic gear carried by most parties is one of those two categories. Half price on them is wonderful. (Who needs Magicmart?)

[Gabe the Bard]

Here are a few other spells that are worthwhile for a bard.

Improvisation is a 1st-level spell in Spell Compendium. It gives you a pool of luck points you can use to boost attacks and skill checks. You get twice your caster level of points in your pool, and you can use up to half your level on each round. So at 8th level, you can get a +4 luck bonus to an attack, then +4 to a skill check, etc.

Immediate Assistance is another 1st-level spell in Complete Mage. It's an immediate action spell that you can cast on someone else, and it lets them reroll a skill check that they just made. It can be a lifesaver if someone rolls low or fumbles.

[Greenish]

Speaking of lifesavers, Ruins Delver's Fortune (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041022a) is a handy immediate action spell to save your skin. It was also printed in SC, but the only change I recall was making it available to wizards and sorcerers.

[Psyborg]

Skill-wise, you're probably going to want to focus on sneaky-bard or social-bard. Be aware that RAW Diplomacy is broken as hell. All the same, the silver-tongued bard can make good use of his astronomical Charisma and the Glibness spell (+30 on Bluff checks).

Fighter: I can kill a guy in one turn!
Cleric: I can kill a guy in half a turn!
Wizard: I can kill a guy before my turn!
Bard: I can get a dozen idiots to kill guys for me.

[Greenish]

Fighter: I can kill a guy in one turn!
Cleric: I can kill a guy in half a turn!
Wizard: I can kill a guy before my turn!
Bard: I can get a dozen idiots to kill guys for me.That'd work even better if the bard said "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me". :smallcool:

[Oracai]

Hmmmm Well i think That Glory bard is always a good cross class Or Master of the Secret Sound possibly. Sorry i havnt played many bards but this Thread is making me very tempted

[Petrocorus]

That Glory bard is always a good cross class Or Master of the Secret Sound possibly.
"That Glory Bard" and "Master of the Secret Sound"
Are they spell? PrC?