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Malos
2010-09-23, 11:32 PM
I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that an initiator can not have the same maneuver readied in two classes simultaneously.

Example: A Crusader 1/Warblade 1 knows Charging Minotaur, a 1st level Stone Dragon maneuver. S/he can not ready Charging Minotaur in both a Crusader slot and Warblade slot. S/he must choose one or the other.

To reiterate, the same character from the example above also can not take Charging Minotaur at first level (Crusader), and then again at 2nd level (Warblade), since it would be a moot point.

My question is, can you ready a maneuver you learned with one initiator class, in another class' slot, as long as that class could use the maneuver?

Example: At 1st level, a player takes a level of Crusader. One of the maneuvers picked is Charging Minotaur. Upon reaching 2nd level, the character takes a level in Warblade, which also can use Stone Dragon maneuvers. Could that character ready Charging Minotaur as a Warblade, instead of Crusader?

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-23, 11:38 PM
Maneuvers known are kept separate. You can't cross-ready them. What's more, if you all ready know that maneuver for a different class, you can't select it again unless you trade out at one of that class' given levels.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-23, 11:50 PM
When you know a maneuver you know it, IIRC. You can't learn it twice.

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-24, 05:14 PM
When you know a maneuver you know it, IIRC. You can't learn it twice.

Same goes for readying maneuvers.

Zhalath
2010-09-24, 10:24 PM
What, isn't there a difference between learning how to charge like a bull-man because the voices in your head told you how, and learning how to charge like a bull-man because you're a ponce?

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-24, 11:19 PM
What, isn't there a difference between learning how to charge like a bull-man because the voices in your head told you how, and learning how to charge like a bull-man because you're a ponce?

Nope.

Its one of the balancing factors of the BoNS. You can't learn the same maneuver more than once even if you multiclass to prevent you from spamming it.

Malos
2010-09-25, 04:45 AM
It is just unfortunate that if you learn a maneuver from one class, you can't ready it for another. (cross-ready?)

Was working on a silly build for kicks and the no cross-readying kills it.

Master_Rahl22
2010-09-25, 08:19 AM
You can still plan to take advantage of the seperate maneuver lists and refresh mechanisms. For example, a Swordsage/Warblade could take mostly Counters, Boosts, and situational maneuvers, and you could put the strikes and maneuvers you'd like to use more often on the Warblade side since the refresh mechanism is much better.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-25, 12:51 PM
Can you ready maneuvers you learn as a Swordsage with your Warblade slots? I think you should - because if you have only one list of maneuvers known (i.e. you can't learn a maneuver twice), then you don't "know" Shadow Clinging Strike "as a Swordsage", you just know it.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-25, 12:53 PM
Can you ready maneuvers you learn as a Swordsage with your Warblade slots? I think you should - because if you have only one list of maneuvers known (i.e. you can't learn a maneuver twice), then you don't "know" Shadow Clinging Strike "as a Swordsage", you just know it.

Manuevers readied are kept separate as well. Just like a Duskblade/Sorcerer can't spontaneously cast his Duskblade spells using Sorcerer spell slots.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-25, 01:00 PM
Source? I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

In addition, a Sorcerer can learn spells he already knows as a Duskblade. A Warblade cannot learn maneuvers he already learned as a Swordsage. I don't think you're correct, and if you are I disagree with that rule.

Otherwise you're saying that someone who learns Wolf Fang Strike as a Swordsage can never learn/ready it as a Warblade, which makes no sense.

Draz74
2010-09-25, 01:26 PM
Source? I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

In addition, a Sorcerer can learn spells he already knows as a Duskblade. A Warblade cannot learn maneuvers he already learned as a Swordsage. I don't think you're correct, and if you are I disagree with that rule.
I don't know what official source I've read it in, but I think he is correct.


Otherwise you're saying that someone who learns Wolf Fang Strike as a Swordsage can never learn/ready it as a Warblade, which makes no sense.

Sure he can: by swapping it out of his Swordsage Maneuvers Known! Then learning it as a Warblade.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-25, 01:59 PM
Source is the FAQ. It's the closest we will get to official errata for the BoNS.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-25, 02:25 PM
Source? I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

In addition, a Sorcerer can learn spells he already knows as a Duskblade. A Warblade cannot learn maneuvers he already learned as a Swordsage. I don't think you're correct, and if you are I disagree with that rule.

Otherwise you're saying that someone who learns Wolf Fang Strike as a Swordsage can never learn/ready it as a Warblade, which makes no sense.

Because manuevers are binary. They are known or not known.
They can be expended or not.
Spells are quaternary. They can be known, not known, deprived, or doubled. If you are deprived one: you can have another.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-25, 03:05 PM
Source is the FAQ. It's the closest we will get to official errata for the BoNS.
FAQ is not RAW, and I strongly disagree with that ruling. Like many others.

Chipp Zanuff
2010-09-25, 03:17 PM
FAQ is not RAW, and I strongly disagree with that ruling. Like many others.

Well tough luck there pal. FAQ's all we got for the BoNS. We almost have to accept it because the errata got so screwed up.

Mongoose87
2010-09-25, 03:43 PM
Well tough luck there pal. FAQ's all we got for the BoNS. We almost have to accept it because the errata got so screwed up.

Not really. I see no reason why not to allow this, and a non-RAW source doesn't mean anything more than an intelligent forum poster's opinion,

DragoonWraith
2010-09-25, 03:44 PM
Well tough luck there pal. FAQ's all we got for the BoNS. We almost have to accept it because the errata got so screwed up.
No, we've also got the book itself (which says nothing even remotely like this), plus, ya know, our brains. Feel free to houserule your games as the FAQ clearly does, but it's not RAW, it's a houserule. Ruling that you can ready a maneuver known as one class from another is probably also a houserule, but it's not as if that's a bad thing.

Pechvarry
2010-09-25, 03:56 PM
On the topic of ToB questions, I have one to add!

How does Ability Focus interact with maneuvers? Would it be Ability Focus (initiation) or Ability Focus (Hand of Death)? See what I'm getting at? Is each maneuver one "Special Attack" for the prereq of Ability Focus? Or is the entire system one big, versatile special attack?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-25, 04:01 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't take Ability Focus for maneuvers the same way you can't take Ability Focus (Spells) or something. But that's definitely an interesting question.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-25, 04:03 PM
On the topic of ToB questions, I have one to add!

How does Ability Focus interact with maneuvers? Would it be Ability Focus (initiation) or Ability Focus (Hand of Death)? See what I'm getting at? Is each maneuver one "Special Attack" for the prereq of Ability Focus? Or is the entire system one big, versatile special attack?

Only works on special attacks.
Is there a source that list maneuvers as special attacks?

Pechvarry
2010-09-25, 04:06 PM
So perhaps we should back up: what the crap is a Special Attack? According to the SRD, it's Disarm, Trip, etc. That's obviously not what Ability Focus is referring to, as we know Warlocks can grab it for their Eldritch Blasts (though I'm not sure they can get Ability Focus (Invocations)).

Draz74
2010-09-25, 04:16 PM
I've always assumed that maneuvers would be valid targets for Ability Focus, but that you would would only get the benefit with one maneuver per feat spent.