Animate Dead Material Component

[Welknair]

If I'm not mistaken, animating dead requires an onyx worth 25 gp per HD of the undead. Not once have I seen Xykon or Redcloak use such an onyx when raising dead nor have they been mentioned. For spellcasters who do a lot of raising, these gems can be quite the nuisance. Xykon probably has enough resources to get as many as he needs, but he'd still have to carry them with him. So does Animate Dead simply not require these onyxes in the OotSverse?

[factotum]

Who knows? Neither Xykon nor Redcloak seem to have a problem animating considerably more undead than they should be able to, and it's also capable of creating things other than Skeletons or Zombies in the OotSverse, so the lack of a material component is the least of the issues...

[Welknair]

Well when they make non-zombie/skeletons I assume they're using Create Undead/Create Greater Undead. As for the number of times they cast... I read an entire thread about how many times V cast Disintegrate in the Siege of Azure City.

[littlekKID]

plot


Does anyone here want to see an entire story arc of Xykon and Redclock fiding gems and fiding a place to keep them?



in OOTS, the plot comes before game rules

[Welknair]

I understand that Plot comes before rules. I'm just saying that they could have mentioned it at least once. Xykon probably could make an epic magic item which acts as the onyx but isn't consumed.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Eschew Materials?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Does anyone here want to see an entire story arc of Xykon and Redclock fiding gems and fiding a place to keep them?
You don’t have to waste panel space showing them tracking it down any more than you need to show every single time the Order stops for lunch or goes to the bathroom. (Or do you think they’ve been holding it in since the Dungeon of Dorukan? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)) You just have to see Xykon and Redcloak take it out of a pocket or something similar.


Eschew Materials?
Doesn’t work on materials over 1 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials)



…and it's also capable of creating things other than Skeletons or Zombies in the OotSverse, so the lack of a material component is the least of the issues...
As mentioned, they have been shown using create (greater) undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) for this purpose.

[Dr.Epic]

Wouldn't be the first time Rich has ignored a D&D rule for the sake of the story.

[factotum]

As mentioned, they have been shown using create (greater) undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) for this purpose.

Please show me the reference where it says that Create (Greater) Undead can create an undead dragon. Go ahead, I'll wait. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

BoVD- the Corpse Creature template can be applied to any living creature with the spell Create Greater Undead.

I don't think it says how powerful you have to be to create it though- what happens if it has more Hit Dice than you have Caster Levels?

So, while Create Greater Undead works, GM fiat may also be required to adjudicate it.

This is for V's undead-ifying of Mama Dragon:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html

For Redcloak's use of Animate Dead to animate the Ancient Silver Dragon as a Zombie Dragon- the rules that allow it to work are in Draconomicon.

(strip 300 makes it clear it is Animate Dead he's using):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html

Normally, you can't Animate as a zombie anything with more than 10 HD (since the spell doubles HD, and according to MM zombies max out at 20 HD).

But in Draconomicon, Zombie Dragons do not get doubled HD, and have no HD cap.

[Zaydos]

Ignore Material Components [Epic]
Prerequisites

Eschew Materials, Spellcraft 25 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit

You may cast spells without any material components. This feat does not affect the need for a focus or divine focus.

Xykon could have this.

[whitelaughter]

Yes, another example of an insanely expensive material component is for the Symbol of Insanity: it would be literally insane for Xykon as a sorcerer to take that spell, as he would only be able to use it once in a blue moon.

[Marnath]

Yeah, but it was obviously a great choice, seeing as he killed a whole room of paladins with it.

[Welknair]

Xykon could have this.

But Redcloak couldn't.


Now that I look at 708...
Create Undead and Create Greater Undead not only need more expensive onyxes, but also require two pitchers, one full of grave dirt, the other of brackish water.

...

[Crisis21]

Material components and spellcasting have an interesting relationship in the OotS universe.

It is obvious from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html) that material components are used in this universe, but certain components (such as those that are common or cheap like sulfur and bat guano) are not even required for a character to keep track of.

Also consider that so far there are only two instances where the material components of a spell are shown during the spellcasting. The first is Dorukan's headband which is the focus for the cloister spell, and the second are the diamonds needed for raise dead/resurrection (as they are expensive and the spell takes a long time to cast).

The only other time we have seen physical evidence of material spell components is during V's shopping excursion.

Clearly a caster is not necessarily required to produce certain spell components when casting, which is fine as I'm sure Rich probably doesn't want to draw them every time he has his characters cast a spell.

[Menarker]

Might be worth mentioning that oynx is also technically not a very valuable gemstone most of the time, even though it was apparently very desirable back in the old days... Which becomes a problem with the particular part of the spell.

Quote from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createundead.htm
"Material Component
A clay pot filled with grave dirt and another filled with brackish water. The spell must be cast on a dead body. You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 50 gp per HD of the undead to be created into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless shells."


So basically, since typical onyx are usually not that valuable for their size, the spell could potentially ask you to put gemstones LARGER THAN YOUR HEAD into their eye socket.

I guess we could do the entire gag of buying a tiny lint's worth of Oynx for 50 GP and claiming you bought 50GP worth of Onyx. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Please show me the reference where it says that Create (Greater) Undead can create an undead dragon. Go ahead, I'll wait. :smallwink:
It’s still a zombie.

Yes, that broke the HD limit, but the dragon is still a zombie dragon, so it is not an example of animate dead creating something other than a skeleton or zombie. It is an example of animate dead creating a more powerful zombie than it normally can.

[Zen Monkey]

Isn't it possible that one or more of these spellcasters has levels in a prestige class that grants certain special features? Has it been explicitly stated that these characters are single-classed?

[Dubious Pie]

It’s still a zombie.

Yes, that broke the HD limit, but the dragon is still a zombie dragon, so it is not an example of animate dead creating something other than a skeleton or zombie. It is an example of animate dead creating a more powerful zombie than it normally can.

No, it is a example of the Zombie Dragon template from Draconomicon.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

No, it is a example of the Zombie Dragon template from Draconomicon.
What in this template is different from the base zombie template, and what marks the dragon in the comic as that particular version over a regular zombie?

[137beth]

How often have you seen material components? They cast spells all the time without The Giant drawing the components. The only time they are shown is if it contributes to the plot/joke (e.g. the diamond). They are so cheap that it's not significant for an epic level sorcerer to get them.

[Welknair]

Well, there haven't been many spells cast that require expensive (over 1gp) material components or focuses. Out of those, we have raise dead, cloister, soul bind, and animate dead. We have seen the components for the other three, but not animate dead. I'm not saying that he should have some elaborate explanation as for his source of onyxes, but I would expect to have seen them or heard the mentioned at least once. Or even a joke about why there AREN'T onyxes ("Inexplicably medium sized sylph...").

[DragonOfUndeath]

or maybe Tusikio, Redcloak and Xykon are using the homebrewed spell: Create Plot Undead (or the more advanced version Create Greater Plot Undead) that doesnt require any materials

[The MunchKING]

Doesn’t work on materials over 1 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials)

The epic one does. I can't remember it's name. Forgo Materials?? I dunno.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The epic one does. I can't remember it's name. Forgo Materials?? I dunno.
As near as anyone can tell, Redcloak’s not epic. So it’s still a problem with him.

And the feat is Ignore Material Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents)

[Kobold-Bard]

Casters aren't shown fiddling with components for any spells. Maybe you just need to possess the components, rather Han do the little ritual for each one.

If so then all they need is a portable hole/Handy Haversack/Time Lord magic pockets full of onyx that slowly diminishes each time they use it.

Or maybe they do what my last IRL group did and as long as you have the gold to cover it you can simply "buy" the components on the go.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Casters aren't shown fiddling with components for any spells.
Except for Resurrection:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html

And the focus for Cloister: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html.

[Kobold-Bard]

Except for Resurrection:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html

And the focus for Cloister: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html.

Both plot spells so to me at least they get a dispensation, and I don't count Cloister because it's a focus not an expended component like Clerics grab their holy symbols.

[hamishspence]

What in this template is different from the base zombie template, and what marks the dragon in the comic as that particular version over a regular zombie?

I answered this:



Normally, you can't Animate as a zombie anything with more than 10 HD (since the spell doubles HD, and according to MM zombies max out at 20 HD).

But in Draconomicon, Zombie Dragons do not get doubled HD, and have no HD cap.

An Ancient Silver Dragon therefore cannot be animated using the MM template (it's called an Ancient Silver Dragon by Redcloak in the Paladin Blues bonus strips). Using the MM, it's impossible to animate as a zombie a dragon with more than 10 HD. Which, in the case of a Silver Dragon, would be Medium sized, and Very Young.

Using Draconomicon- no limit.

Draconomicon zombie dragons also retain a breath weapon, and have more of the base creature's Extraordinary special abilities, like Spell Resistance- normally, zombies only retain extraordinary qualities that improve their melee or ranged attacks.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I answered this:
Okay, I missed that.

From the wording in your post, it appears that Draconomicon actually allows you to apply this template with animate dead, yes?

If not, then there is still a rule being broken. It’s just a matter of which rule.


An Ancient Silver Dragon therefore cannot be animated using the MM template (it's called an Ancient Silver Dragon by Redcloak in the Paladin Blues bonus strips). Using the MM, it's impossible to animate as a zombie a dragon with more than 10 HD. Which, in the case of a Silver Dragon, would be Medium sized, and Very Young.
The rules state is impossible to zombify a target with more than 10 HD using animate dead. There is no limit for zombies in general. If some other effect creates the zombies, then the limit could be much higher, or even nonexistent.


Draconomicon zombie dragons also retain a breath weapon, and have more of the base creature's Extraordinary special abilities, like Spell Resistance- normally, zombies only retain extraordinary qualities that improve their melee or ranged attacks.
I don’t recall the zombie actually exhibiting any of that.

[Claudius Maximus]

The zombie dragon is completely possible with the Draconomicon template. No rule is being broken. There is no HD limit for Zombie Dragons - you can animate a Great Wyrm with it if you want. And yes, the spell used to make it is Animate Dead.

[John Cribati]

We don't see V with bat guano and sulfur in his hand when he casts a fireball even though he mentions that he uses it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html). Neither do we see Copper Wire in Durkon's hand when he casts Sending. Just assume that the person has the components for the spell, they're just not drawn.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

And yes, the spell used to make it is Animate Dead.
All I needed to know. Issue resolved, then. :smallcool:

Seems like that gives quite a power boost to the spell, though since it doesn’t have an HD-limit. (But I suppose that’s a discussion for another forum. :smalltongue:)

[Acero]

We don't see V with bat guano and sulfur in his hand when he casts a fireball even though he mentions that he uses it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html). Neither do we see Copper Wire in Durkon's hand when he casts Sending. Just assume that the person has the components for the spell, they're just not drawn.

Does it actuall say anywhere that the compnents need to be in hand? They could just dissapear from the pouch or something.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm pretty sure it does say that somewhere. For example, you need to have material components "in hand" to cast while grappling.

[Welknair]

I know that generally spell components aren't shown, however think about the cost of the diamonds, and the cost of these onyxes. HOW MANY zombies have redcloak, tsukiko and Xykon raised? You'd have to imagine that they run out eventually or at least say something about the cost.

As for the lack of pitchers for create undead, there's a reason why those are included. You need the pitchers so you CAN'T randomly kill people and make undead out of them on the spot. You need to bring the body to where you have the materials set up. Without this precaution, we end up with kill-and-creates such as Tsukiko does, which makes the spell a deal more powerful.

That reminds me, how does Tsukiko control the wights? I know she's part evil cleric, but chances are that part is only 3 levels. Her Rebuke/command can't be THAT strong, nor do we notice her having to consciously maintain control.

[Crisis21]

I know that generally spell components aren't shown, however think about the cost of the diamonds, and the cost of these onyxes. HOW MANY zombies have redcloak, tsukiko and Xykon raised? You'd have to imagine that they run out eventually or at least say something about the cost.

Yes, but I personally would not want to be listening to the villains gripe and/or worry about the cost of their most frequently cast spells. It is pointless and drops their villainous potential.


As for the lack of pitchers for create undead, there's a reason why those are included. You need the pitchers so you CAN'T randomly kill people and make undead out of them on the spot. You need to bring the body to where you have the materials set up. Without this precaution, we end up with kill-and-creates such as Tsukiko does, which makes the spell a deal more powerful.


Which is probably why Rich is ignoring the material component cost. Alot of the rule particulars are put in place to serve as roadblocks to players who would exploit them. As NPCs and the main antagonists, it makes sense to remove those same roadblocks to increase their threat level.


That reminds me, how does Tsukiko control the wights? I know she's part evil cleric, but chances are that part is only 3 levels. Her Rebuke/command can't be THAT strong, nor do we notice her having to consciously maintain control.

Considering that Xykon never (even when alive) had any trouble controlling his undead creations, despite having zero cleric levels, I do not find this odd.




One more thing. Am I the only one who gets weird thoughts about the thread's title? The way I'm reading 'Animate Dead Material Component', it sounds less like 'The Material Component for the Animate Dead Spell' and more like 'The Spell to Animate Material Components that are Dead.'

[Gray Mage]

That reminds me, how does Tsukiko control the wights? I know she's part evil cleric, but chances are that part is only 3 levels. Her Rebuke/command can't be THAT strong, nor do we notice her having to consciously maintain control.

She doesn't need to control all of them. She could control one and the others were created by that one, and so she controls by proxy.

[Welknair]

Considering that Xykon never (even when alive) had any trouble controlling his undead creations, despite having zero cleric levels, I do not find this odd.


Has Xykon ever made undead that weren't zombies or skeletons? Because it says in Animate Dead that created undead are under your control and you can command them with free actions. Create Undead, however requires you to control them by other means. I don't recall Xykon ever using Create Undead, whereas Tsukiko uses it multiple times to make her wights.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Recall also that wights and ghouls are free-willed and intelligent. She doesn’t need to control them with magic as long as she treats them well and wins their loyalty through more traditional methods.

[Gift Jeraff]

MANY zombies have redcloak, tsukiko and Xykon raised? You'd have to imagine that they run out eventually or at least say something about the cost.
They (or at least Tsukiko) seem to be relying mostly on wights now. All that requires is one Enervation or Energy Drain (or taking control of some random wight) to create the original wight, and then that single wight can create an entire army of wights. :smallsmile:

[Crisis21]

Recall also that wights and ghouls are free-willed and intelligent. She doesn’t need to control them with magic as long as she treats them well and wins their loyalty through more traditional methods.

Honestly, the less I think about Tsukiko's possible 'methods' of winning loyalty, the better.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Honestly, the less I think about Tsukiko's possible 'methods' of winning loyalty, the better.
Heh! Fair enough. :smallbiggrin:

[suszterpatt]

I know that generally spell components aren't shown, however think about the cost of the diamonds, and the cost of these onyxes. HOW MANY zombies have redcloak, tsukiko and Xykon raised? You'd have to imagine that they run out eventually or at least say something about the cost.I bet that pawning off the gear and possessions of your recently deceased followers provides a considerable income when you're the evil overlord of a hobgoblin population of tens of thousands.


:xykon: Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it CAN'T solve?

[Crisis21]

Am I still the only one who looks at the thread title of 'Animate Dead Material Component' and find themselves thinking of a spell to animate the material components that are dead instead of the material components for the animate dead spell?

[Kish]

Am I still the only one who looks at the thread title of 'Animate Dead Material Component' and find themselves thinking of a spell to animate the material components that are dead instead of the material components for the animate dead spell?
No, I do, too.

[Ancalagon]

Material Components have two purposes:

A) Give a hint how to describe a spell to uncreative players.
B) Balance the spell so *players* don't abuse them.

Both reasons can slide for a narrative. So it's no surprise they are ignored in all but special cases.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Honestly, the less I think about Tsukiko's possible 'methods' of winning loyalty, the better.
Shame on you! She's their mother!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Shame on you! She's their mother!
Given her other state proclivities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), that just makes it worse! :smalleek:

[zimmerwald1915]

Shame on you! She's their mother!
Does that make her Jocasta?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Does that make her Jocasta?
Only if she hangs herself.

[Sharkman1231]

This might seem off topic at first, but bear with me. The MC of animate dead is an onyx gem, right? Many people on these forums debate about what the MITD is. One of the qualifiers is based off of what RC said to him about providing materials for the spell. Couldn't that mean that the MITD is a type of creature made with or from gemstones? Like an earth elemental or something? I know elementals don't sleep and stuff, but couldn't this open up a few other possibilities? Just a thought, I'm not sure if it has been suggested before. I might post this on the MITD thread too. What do you guys think?

[the_tick_rules]

Read start of darkness and ask yourself how he

got a gem strong enough to hold 2 epic people

it's OOTS,this stuff happens. Ever seen any spell caster use the common spell ingredients like a pinch of hair and all that minor stuff?

[suszterpatt]

Stars of webcomics don't go carrying bat guano around, dang it!

[rewinn]

Maybe OOTS material components are like familiars: sure, you have them, but no-one sees them unless you specifically draw attention to them.:smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

You know, I noticed in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)Xyon is shown holding some onyx in his (dominant) right hand. Since he's very high level and has some slots and XP to burn (since in this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) he says he spends 8 hours a day making magic items) I don't put it above him to do this sequence:
1.Buy gargantuan sized piece of onyx for several thousand/million gp (or steal it though magical means).
2.Use a shrink item spell to reduce it down 4 size categories to medium.
3.Use permanency to keep it that way.
4. keep the onyx on him and use a small peice of it whenever he animates undead. By the time we see it it is tiny because he has been animating a ton of undead.

And on the subject of him animating his dog: Simple. His dog was a 0 HD monster. 500*0=0

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Read start of darkness and ask yourself how he

got a gem strong enough to hold 2 epic people
The question isn’t how he gets the materials. Just that he should have them. But he doesn’t. If he cast that spell without the material, then it would be the same category.


it's OOTS,this stuff happens. Ever seen any spell caster use the common spell ingredients like a pinch of hair and all that minor stuff?
The onyx for animate dead has a cost, and, therefore, is generally note considered minor.


You know, I noticed in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)Xyon is shown holding some onyx in his (dominant) right hand.
Given the context of that strip…
SOD:that gem is almost certainly the gem containing Dorukan’s and Lirian’s souls. Not a component for other spells.


And on the subject of him animating his dog: Simple. His dog was a 0 HD monster. 500*0=0
Unless you are an object, and therefore get hp without HD, you have >0 HD.

And the onyx only costs 25gp * HD.

[Psyren]

You don't hang on to the onyxes while you cast AD, you put them in the corpse's eyes/mouth. So that is why you don't see Redcloak/Tsukiko carrying them. What, you can't see a black gem inside of a stick figure's black eyes or line-shaped mouth? My super-HD monitor shows it just fine! :smallbiggrin:

[Nimrod's Son]

Stars of webcomics don't go carrying bat guano around, dang it!
Actually, in Origins we see V doing exactly that.

[Psyren]

Actually, in Origins we see V doing exactly that.

Nice catch!

[suszterpatt]

Actually, in Origins we see V doing exactly that.That's premium material though. Think of the bonuses V probably got for doing it! But doing it on the internet for free? I think not.

[Nimrod's Son]

It's the bat I feel sorry for. Totally exploited.

[ericgrau]

+1 yes you need the material component in hand when casting any spell, no the comic doesn't bother with this or other minor details.

[Kirgoth]

Perhaps they use animate so much they have used the innate spell feat to make this a spell like ability (3*per day). As a spell like ability it no longer requires material components. Also Xylon could I suppose be spellstiched with animate being one of his tats ( although i haven't seen any they might be somewhere he doesn't show to anyone but his closest friends).

[Souhiro]

About the Dragon-Zombie... You know, as a GM, I allowed a necromancer to raise a Lvl-7 fighter, when he just could afford 4HDs of undead. Just by De-Levelling it to the 4HDs the necromanced had.

"When you casted the Animate Dead, your weakened magic rot most of the fighter's corpse. Large pieces of meat falls and it isn't a pleasant view. The fighter is now at your service, but as a shadow of his old self"


And about the schew the Onix, I think that we NEVER saw the PCs drinking WATER. And only in the first strips, they needed to go to the toilet. The also never blink (They close their eyes in frustration, but never winks)
Nor the Spellcasters do complicated moves and say arcane words (Somatic and Verbal components) but they raise their hands, and say the name of the spell.

So. You want to see Xykon dancing for 1 hour (Casting time of Create Undead) and put him a gem on every corpse he raises, or you just want see jokes, plot, and epic?

[Souhiro]

Perhaps they use animate so much they have used the innate spell feat to make this a spell like ability (3*per day). As a spell like ability it no longer requires material components. Also Xylon could I suppose be spellstiched with animate being one of his tats ( although i haven't seen any they might be somewhere he doesn't show to anyone but his closest friends).

Hi, Kirgoth...
any Spell-Like Ability still requires any expensive material component. You won't need sulphur nor gwano for your fireball, but you still need diamonds for resurrecting.
Basically, those things thar cannot be schewed, aren't covered by SLA