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Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-24, 02:26 AM
"Shortsword + buckler would make a good rogue. A MW buckler has no non-proficiency penalty and helps the fragility issue that rogues have. In fact, it yields more damage-before-you-drop than TWF."

This was a reply to one of my questions about making shortswords and bucklers a viable combat option for a Sword of the Arcane Order.

What i would like to know, is whether or not it truly does yield more damage before you drop for a Rogue, as compared to TWF? Does it really increase your survivability that much?

If it does, why is it practically a requirement to have TWF as a Rogue? why do I never see rogue builds with bucklers instead of two shortswords?

How would one build such a Rogue?

As always, thanks in advance everyone!

ffone
2010-09-24, 03:28 AM
I'd take both.

Improved Buckler Defense feat (C Adventurer I think?) Much better than the Two-Weapon Defense path.

Sure the buckler's only +1, but the enhancements are so cheap.

Or Improved Shield Bash and a light mw shield. IBD probably gives you more flexibility, though.

Or just bash with the mw light shield, no feats, and accept losing the armor bonus in rounds you use it. Will still help during rounds you don't (move + one attack rounds). When you're doing a TWF full attack of sneak attacks, hopefully you kill the thing anyway.

Malbordeus
2010-09-24, 06:05 AM
if you got Shield Proficiency with a rogue, then Small/large mithril shield (with spikes) and the shield-bash chain (imp shield back, agile shield fighter et al) could combine to make a pretty awsome rogue.:smallconfused:

Shenanigans
2010-09-24, 09:31 AM
You could also try Shield Ward and the one from Lords of Madness (I forget the name) to up the usefulness of your shield on defense.

jpreem
2010-09-24, 12:00 PM
If a shield is used for bashing, it counts as a martial bludgeoning weapon. So shield bashing is not a good idea for a one classed rogue. He would take a -4 penalty as rogue does not have martial weapon proficiencys.
(also he can't take improved shield bash as that requires shield proficiency)

Hague
2010-09-24, 12:18 PM
EWP Buckler-axe, maybe?

Two-weapon defense works if you make your off-hand weapon into a Defending weapon. Though, there's something to be said of how nice it would be to have a source for shield enchantments.

Jack Zander
2010-09-24, 12:32 PM
Generally its:

1 powerful enemy - TWF
Hordes - Rapier + Buckler (not sure why'd you use a shortsword over the rapier)

When you are facing 1 big bad, TWF gets it down quicker. It likely has a higher AC and so you need multiple attacks just to ensure you hit at least once or twice a round. Your AC hardly matters as it will hit you fairly easily with or without your buckler + enhancements unless you've optimized your AC.

Against hordes its a different story. You are likely to drop each mook with a single sneak attack and their ACs are not difficult to hit so extra attacks aren't necessary. Having a higher AC yourself helps tremendously because you are likely to be on the receiving end of several attacks each round.

If you wanted to build a versatile rogue, forgot what others said about shield bashing. The solution is much simplifier than that. Instead hold a rapier in your main hand, a shortsword in your off hand, and strap a buckler to your off hand as well. When you single attack you don't suffer TWF penalties and keep your buckler's AC bonus. When you do need to TWF you don't have to worry about quick draw and its only a -1 penalty to your off hand attacks.

Keld Denar
2010-09-24, 12:33 PM
Lords of Madness (I forget the name)

Parrying Shield

Shenanigans
2010-09-24, 12:45 PM
Parrying ShieldThank you :)

Parrying Shield doesn't give the bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, etc., but it doesn't have any prerequisites either.

Ruinix
2010-09-24, 12:49 PM
If a shield is used for bashing, it counts as a martial bludgeoning weapon. So shield bashing is not a good idea for a one classed rogue. He would take a -4 penalty as rogue does not have martial weapon proficiencys.
(also he can't take improved shield bash as that requires shield proficiency)

1 dip lev on fighter sneaky variant and done ^^

John Campbell
2010-09-24, 01:32 PM
Or dip a couple levels of Ranger (or Urban Ranger) for the Martial (all) and Shield proficiencies, free TWF feat, favored enemy, extra +3 bumps to your Fort and Reflex saves, extra HP, and access to a spell list that includes cure light wounds, and, if you go Urban Ranger, invisibility. Ranger hurts a lot less than Fighter on the skill-points front, too.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-24, 02:41 PM
Okay. I think everyone who mentioned TWF with Improved Buckler Defense is missing the point, as are people who suggest that bashing with a shield is a good idea.

I am not saying they aren't good ideas, they all seem sound and valid to me. However:

...it yields more damage-before-you-drop than TWF."

(my emphasis)

This implies that a rogue could use solely a finesse sword, and a buckler, without the use of TWF or shield bashing, to achieve more damage to an opponent/foes before dying than a rogue using two weapons, or a rogue using a blade and shield bashing. (which I believe still counts as TWF, it's just thinly disguised as shield use)

So, to the point. A rogue, without TWF, using a rapier or shortsword, or whatever finesse blade you want, and a buckler. How is it better, why is it better, and how would you make one, using primarily rogue levels. (75% or more?)

Curmudgeon
2010-09-24, 06:16 PM
A rapier is a superior choice over a short sword once you figure Craven into the equation. The non-dice bonus damage from Craven will get multiplied on a critical sneak hit, and thus you want the wide threat range of a keen rapier. But a Rogue can't use dual rapiers for Two-Weapon Fighting and still expect to hit anything; the nonlight off-hand weapon makes your best attacks have a -4 penalty. With 3/4 BAB that's just not going to hit very often.

The main problems with Two-Weapon Fighting are

It's a useless feat unless you're making full attacks, so it encourages you to go for stand-up fights against foes who can kill you.
When you get more primary hand attacks you'll need more feats in the chain to also get off hand attacks, but each subsequent feat gives you an extra attack that's less likely to hit than the one before. Diminishing returns suck.
There are other feat choices that will give you either more flexibility, more damage, or both.
For more damage and more flexibility, clearly Craven is a superior choice. It gives you +1 point of damage per character level to each sneak attack. As I've already noted, that damage gets multiplied on a critical hit. The benefits increase with no additional feats required. And because it's not restricted to Rogue levels, you have more flexibility to multiclass for other useful abilities (like Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight from Shadowdancer).

For more flexibility, Bracers of Striking (which grant Improved Unarmed Strike) plus Snap Kick is a superior alternative to TWF. Snap Kick allows you to add an unarmed attack whenever you make any melee attack. So that's one Snap Kick on all of the following:

full attack
standard action attack
bonus attack (such as from Improved Trip)
attack of opportunity
The penalty (-2 to all attacks) is the same as for TWF, but you're not forced into full attacks. If you dip into Shadowdancer you'll also satisfy all the prerequisites for Spring Attack. You can add a Snap Kick to Spring Attack but TWF won't help you. If you're visually undetectable (because of Hide in Plain Sight) you'll have a lot of enemies provoking AoOs as they move unaware through your threatened area, and Snap Kick will double your attacks on every AoO; again TWF won't help you.

Jack Zander
2010-09-24, 06:36 PM
So, to the point. A rogue, without TWF, using a rapier or shortsword, or whatever finesse blade you want, and a buckler. How is it better, why is it better, and how would you make one, using primarily rogue levels. (75% or more?)

I've already addressed this:


Against hordes its a different story. You are likely to drop each mook with a single sneak attack and their ACs are not difficult to hit so extra attacks aren't necessary. Having a higher AC yourself helps tremendously because you are likely to be on the receiving end of several attacks each round.

In most any other situation, TWF is better.

I'm not sure why you want to know how to build one. Focus Dex, get weapon finesse, everything else is icing. Maybe go into Swashbuckler for a few levels.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-24, 06:44 PM
In most any other situation, TWF is better.
Since I obviously disagree, would you like to try to support that statement?

Starbuck_II
2010-09-24, 06:44 PM
\
[/LIST] For more damage and more flexibility, clearly Craven is a superior choice. It gives you +1 point of damage per character level to each sneak attack. As I've already noted, that damage gets multiplied on a critical hit. The benefits increase with no additional feats required. And because it's not restricted to Rogue levels, you have more flexibility to multiclass for other useful abilities (like Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight from Shadowdancer).


And when you start fighting Dragons, you can't be immune to frightened presence or you lose the benefit of your feat.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-24, 07:29 PM
And when you start fighting Dragons, you can't be immune to frightened presence or you lose the benefit of your feat.
That's not required; you merely "cannot be immune to fear". So picking up Uncanny Bravery (the ACF in Dragon Magic) gives you immunity to draconic presence, but not to fear in general. A dragon that casts Fear could still send your running away even if their draconic presence won't do the trick.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-24, 07:45 PM
Thank you Curmudgeon. I think you have clearly stated that a combination of Craven and a high crit weapon will do wonders. I hadn't really thought that the Craven damage bonus would get multiplied on a critical.

And since you are not TWF, your chance of confirming the critical is even better... and so is your chance of doubling your craven bonus as a result.

Any other methods or ideas as to why this style would be better than TWF?

Greenish
2010-09-24, 07:53 PM
Any other methods or ideas as to why this style would be better than TWF?Well, there is certain old world charm about rapier & buckler.

Buckler, being as it is fixed to one's wrist, frees up one's hand, to draw and use wands and other handy items (or to actually cast spells, if applicable).

Duncan_Ruadrik
2010-09-24, 08:10 PM
"Well, there is certain old world charm about rapier & buckler."

Old world charm... just like my roughly hewn walnut armoire, matching tea table and accompanying tea cozies with imperfect shape, denoting that they were indeed created by European peasants. :smallamused:

The use of wands is an excellent point as well.... no need to draw it out, if its in your hand. Quick way to heal yourself after an enemies lucky blow, especially if your healbot is being mangled by summoned demons.
Guess the healbot shouldn't have played a good character, with his god's holy symbol emblazoned on his armored chest. it kinda screams "all evil things, kill me if you can!"

Zhalath
2010-09-24, 10:15 PM
"Well, there is certain old world charm about rapier & buckler."

Old world charm... just like my roughly hewn walnut armoire, matching tea table and accompanying tea cozies with imperfect shape, denoting that they were indeed created by European peasants. :smallamused:

The use of wands is an excellent point as well.... no need to draw it out, if its in your hand. Quick way to heal yourself after an enemies lucky blow, especially if your healbot is being mangled by summoned demons.
Guess the healbot shouldn't have played a good character, with his god's holy symbol emblazoned on his armored chest. it kinda screams "all evil things, kill me if you can!"
Like a big target...

Considering that sneak attack only applies to your first attack, isn't your extra weapon just another d6 or so of damage, plus your mediocre Str, in exchange for reduced accuracy? Plus, you can't jump people and full-attack them, unless they happen to stand within 5 feet of you, or you're invisible. I love the idea of two-weapon fighting, but the rules don't seem to support it, not as well as two-handed charging.
I mean, other games give people dual-wielding an extra attack all the time...

John Campbell
2010-09-24, 11:01 PM
Since when does sneak attack only apply to your first attack?

Curmudgeon
2010-09-25, 12:19 AM
Since when does sneak attack only apply to your first attack?
Maybe Zhalath has been in too many games where nobody wanted to be a flanking partner. I've been in games like that, and it's pretty annoying. You get sneak attack against flat-footed foes, and thereafter only when you attack from hiding: one sneak attack and then you're not hidden any more. Which is why I often dip into Shadowdancer so I won't be dependent on such support.

ffone
2010-09-25, 02:25 AM
If a shield is used for bashing, it counts as a martial bludgeoning weapon. So shield bashing is not a good idea for a one classed rogue. He would take a -4 penalty as rogue does not have martial weapon proficiencys.
(also he can't take improved shield bash as that requires shield proficiency)

Multiclass. Swash with Daring Outlaw or something.

Greenish
2010-09-25, 03:49 AM
The use of wands is an excellent point as well.... no need to draw it out, if its in your hand.Of course, a TWFer can have a wand chambered to his each of her weapons. Still, a free hand offers more flexibility.

Considering that sneak attack only applies to your first attackThat seems like a surprisingly common houserule. Maybe all those d6's really are so intimidating…

Jack Zander
2010-09-25, 09:59 AM
Since I obviously disagree, would you like to try to support that statement?

I have nothing to say about snap kick. I've never heard of it and from how you described it looks in all ways like it is an overpowered feat (as in, any martial character will want to grab it with almost no exceptions). However the mechanics of the feat work so similar to TWF that it essentially is a TWF build, just with a weapon limitation but usable on single attacks.

As for craven, it's clearly superior in a TWF build than it is in a sword and board build. More attacks = more bonus damage AND more criticals which, like you said, = more bonus damage.

Again, sometimes you don't need bonus damage, such as against mooks. This is when sword and board comes out on top. Most any other situations though, TWF is a rogue's best friend.

Greenish
2010-09-25, 10:08 AM
I have nothing to say about snap kick. I've never heard of it and from how you described it looks in all ways like it is an overpowered feat (as in, any martial character will want to grab it with almost no exceptions).Well, it works like TWF should have, but limits you to using unarmed strike (and costs two feats). Without precision damage (or perhaps beefed PA), it's kind of a low priority feat.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-25, 10:17 AM
More attacks = more bonus damage AND more criticals which, like you said, = more bonus damage.
There are two problems with that statement:

There's no indication that Two-Weapon Fighting will give you more attacks than some other feat choice, such as Snap Kick. As I noted, TWF has zero value unless you're making full attacks.
More hits = more bonus damage, but you've got to demonstrate that TWF will give you more hits. It penalizes all your attacks, and you're only starting with 3/4 BAB.
You can't just make simplistic pronouncements; you've got to back them up.

ericgrau
2010-09-25, 10:53 AM
What i would like to know, is whether or not it truly does yield more damage before you drop for a Rogue, as compared to TWF? Does it really increase your survivability that much?
Hi I'm the one who made the comment. It's based on simple computer simulations I did versus assumed monster stats. The difference is huge once you get your dex high enough to have a decent AC. I now have a table of average monster stats by CR so I can redo the simulations if you really want to make sure. Based on other builds I've redone I suspect I'll get the same answer, but sometimes low level builds that can't manage a good starting AC (dex too low) do slightly worse with a shield. Basically everyone's hitting 10ish times out of 20 not 20 out of 20, so each +1 AC and -1 AB is a 10% increase/decrease to damage not 5%. At higher levels TWF gets even worse as you have to pay to enchant 2 weapons and the extra attacks get diluted by haste... each of which is eating -2 AB. ITWF and GTWF barely even count given the -5 and -10 to hit. So not only are you hit a lot more you're not actually landing that many more hits nor dealing much more damage. Past 5 attacks at -20% each... you're actually losing hits.

Ya, as mentioned a rapier is a hair better than a shortsword, but only a hair. I was looking for a build where a shortsword is better to fit the OP's request. I came up with shortsword+buckler transitioning to TWF shortsword + shortsword + greater invisibility or blinking for safety (to replace the buckler). Medium BAB rogues really need the AB and weapon focus shouldn't be ignored. The ring is expensive and the wizard won't use his highest level spell slot to buff you, so you should expect to hold on to the buckler for at least half the game. Ideally you'd switch back and forth mid-combat even, depending whether or not your enemy can melee you.

Volos
2010-09-25, 01:02 PM
Main Hand - +X Defending Shortsword
Off-Hand - +X Light Wooden Shield with +X Defending Shield Spikes

The Shield Spikes count as a light weapon for two weapon fighting so you don't lose out on being able to lay the smack down. The magic bonus from both the shield and the spikes can go to your armor any given turn if you can only make one attack with you shortsword. And if anything, you can give your foe a hell of a time with a comination of shield bashing and sword slashing. Assuming that +X is +5, you can have a +15 bonus to your AC any given round.

true_shinken
2010-09-25, 01:03 PM
No reason not to use both TWF and Snap Kick.
Core melee feats, except for Power Attack and Improved Trip, are mostly bad. That's old news. TWF, however, gets a lot of support - extra attacks are very, very good. Getting free movement is not that hard, even. Quicksilver Boots are very cheap; between them and Tempo Bloodspikes, you should be able to move as you see fit.
When you are getting bonus damage from insightful strike, glove of heartfelt blows, dragonfire inspiration and the like plus Craven, an extra attack becomes more and more important than a +2 to hit. If you are striking from hiding or invisible, attack bonus matters a lot less. If you are targetting touch AC (say, with a lightsaber) and invisible, attack bonus hardly matters at all.
TL;DR TWF is not that bad if you build around it.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-25, 05:28 PM
I came up with shortsword+buckler transitioning to TWF shortsword + shortsword + greater invisibility or blinking for safety (to replace the buckler). Medium BAB rogues really need the AB and weapon focus shouldn't be ignored.
Those statements don't fit together. Two-Weapon Fighting imposes a minimum penalty of -2 to your AB. Weapon Focus provides only a +1 bonus to your AB. Either you've got enough AB that you can afford to sacrifice some of it to try to get extra hits, or it's a bad idea to reduce your chance of hitting and a worse one to waste feats in that pursuit.

By choosing Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus (short sword) and splitting your weapon enhancement budget on two swords you're locking yourself into an underperforming niche strategy.

Let's say the combat starts with a surprise round: you turn a corner/enter a room and there are some foes within one move (30' away or less). Well, Two-Weapon Fighting and short swords aren't going to do you any good. You can try to close that round, but you won't get any sneak attack against those flat-footed foes. You may incur an AoO if one of those foes has reach and either isn't surprised or has Combat Reflexes.

The next round you've still got some flat-footed enemies, but maybe not the one you closed to in the surprise round. If they weren't surprised then they could take a 5' step back and hit you with a missile weapon, or withdraw on the surprise round so that you'll have nobody in range for a full attack. Or maybe they've rolled a higher initiative and make a full attack against you before you have a chance to attack. In the best of circumstances you're still playing a guessing game as to whether you'll have a flat-footed foe to attack in the first round of combat.

Here's my suggestion for a better approach, with rapier + buckler instead of two short swords. You start off with a shortbow ready to fire. In the surprise round you fire at any enemy who hasn't acted, and add sneak attack damage. In the first regular round of combat you make a full arrow attack, picking foes who haven't acted yet and add sneak attack on every hit. You make 5' adjustments after attacking each round to try to put obstacles or difficult terrain between you and potential chargers. You've got your cheap Bracers of Striking (which grant Improved Unarmed Strike) so you still threaten while you've got the bow out, and if anyone provokes an AoO you get to hit them twice thanks to Snap Kick. On the second regular round of combat you draw your rapier as part of your movement to close to a flanking position with an ally; your bow is now merely held, not wielded, in your off hand so you get your buckler's AC bonus. You get two attacks: one with your rapier and one Snap Kick, both at -2, but you get to add sneak attack damage each hit. Because you've got a wider threat range you've got a better chance of doubling your Craven bonus with your rapier than if you were wielding a short sword.

My approach picks Craven and Snap Kick over Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus (short sword). The rapier and shortbow are already on the Rogue's weapon proficiency list. Two +1 short swords cost about the same as a +1 rapier and Bracers of Defense.

Greenish
2010-09-25, 07:27 PM
The fellow with twin short swords could use a shortbow, too (and threaten with armour spikes while doing it).

Curmudgeon
2010-09-25, 09:36 PM
The fellow with twin short swords could use a shortbow, too (and threaten with armour spikes while doing it).
What's going to happen to the bow when they want to use both swords? If they drop it, I'd expect half the time the bow is either going to get taken or stomped on. And if the foes try to run away, they can't quickly switch to ranged attacks, whereas the Rogue with the rapier still has their shortbow in hand and can immediately start firing arrows because nobody's around to grab the rapier when they drop that.

true_shinken
2010-09-25, 09:37 PM
What's going to happen to the bow when they want to use both swords? If they drop it, I'd expect half the time the bow is either going to get taken or stomped on. And if the foes try to run away, they can't quickly switch to ranged attacks, whereas the Rogue with the rapier still has their shortbow in hand and can immediately start firing arrows because nobody's around to grab the rapier when they drop that.

How about shuriken?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-25, 09:50 PM
Just a comment on how to shore UP TWF, Law Devotion is a great option in that regard, since the Bonus is substantial and in case things go south you can instead gain AC.

But if you are NOT dipping cleric try to get your DM to agree that you can use turn atempts gained throug feats, items etc to power them more times per day

Curmudgeon
2010-09-25, 09:58 PM
How about shuriken?
An exotic weapon that the Rogue doesn't have proficiency in, and with guaranteed range penalties? That seems to be on the same order of combat effectiveness as harsh language. :smallfrown:

ericgrau
2010-09-25, 10:00 PM
Analysis in post #32
Ya, now your ideas are making the strategy even better. Though I think once you eliminate the need for defense TWF stays viable longer even with the AB hit and split enchantments. I mean you don't have a serious magic weapon budget until level 12 or so. And hopefully the campaign ends shortly after that :smallbiggrin:. Regardless of strategy I'd still get weapon focus on the medium BAB rogue.

true_shinken
2010-09-25, 10:02 PM
An exotic weapon that the Rogue doesn't have proficiency in, and with guaranteed range penalties? That seems to be on the same order of combat effectiveness as harsh language. :smallfrown:

Somehow I thought Rogues were proficient with shuriken. There was a shuriken throwing rogue in my party once... he probably got proficiency from other source. Shadowdancer, maybe?
How about Skillful Shuriken?

John Campbell
2010-09-25, 11:25 PM
An exotic weapon that the Rogue doesn't have proficiency in, and with guaranteed range penalties? That seems to be on the same order of combat effectiveness as harsh language. :smallfrown:

Nah.



A social Rogue can be pretty effective with harsh language.

Zhalath
2010-09-26, 12:30 AM
.
That seems like a surprisingly common houserule. Maybe all those d6's really are so intimidating…


Maybe Zhalath has been in too many games where nobody wanted to be a flanking partner. I've been in games like that, and it's pretty annoying. You get sneak attack against flat-footed foes, and thereafter only when you attack from hiding: one sneak attack and then you're not hidden any more. Which is why I often dip into Shadowdancer so I won't be dependent on such support.

I meant the first attack in an action. You don't get sneak attack damage added to every attack that connects when you're in a position to get sneak attack.
Like, if I'm flanking, and I get 2d6 sneak attack, it only applies to the first attack I make, not the next one for having higher BAB or another weapon or whatever.

This is how I've interpreted the rule, every time I see it. If this assumption is wrong, someone in my D&D group is going to get smacked. It may even be me.

John Campbell
2010-09-26, 12:59 AM
That assumption is wrong. You get sneak attack whenever the necessary conditions (target denied Dex, or flanked by you) are met. In some situations, you lose the element of surprise or whatever that denied your target Dex and thus gave you sneak attack after the first hit, but in other situations you don't, and you can just keep on smacking them with that sock full of d6es. Flanking will (barring strange circumstances) give you sneak attack on every attack you land.

Greenish
2010-09-26, 02:38 AM
I meant the first attack in an action. You don't get sneak attack damage added to every attack that connects when you're in a position to get sneak attack.What denies you SA for the rest of the attacks? You still fulfill all conditions, and the ability doesn't say anything about being limited to 1/round.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-26, 03:59 AM
Somehow I thought Rogues were proficient with shuriken. There was a shuriken throwing rogue in my party once... he probably got proficiency from other source. Shadowdancer, maybe? Not Shadowdancer. Only the Monk of all the SRD classes has shuriken proficiency. Maybe went the Ascetic Rogue route?

How about Skillful Shuriken? That would be fairly expensive. As ammunition, shuriken are destroyed on impact, and 50% of the time if you miss. Since Skillful is a +2 enhancement, even dividing by 50 you're talking 366.2 gp each. And still after taking Point Blank Shot and Far Shot you'd only get to throw at targets 10' and 15' away before the range penalties kick in at 20'.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

ffone
2010-09-26, 05:28 AM
Because of the 'projectile' free-action-to-draw status, my rogue uses shuriken in the situational cases where she is doing a full attack and runs out of things to hit in melee, and was holding weapons that there's no downside to dropping (or which themselves can be and were thrown first). Or when she starts a full attack at range - hopefully with two 'proficient' thrown weapons or hand crossbows) held beforehand.

The penalties are indeed terrible - TWF + nonproficiency + range increments (but at least it's a 'daring outlaw' build so only 1 point behind full bab).

It's just a 'nothing to lose' gimmick when she has nothing else to do with remaining iterative attacks, or when it's the only way to get a full attack against flat-footed foes on a surprise round. All based around the fact that they're a free action to draw.

jpreem
2010-09-26, 06:18 AM
You don't get a full attack on a surprise round.
And that is just terrible. ( I hate that rule so much :D)

Curmudgeon
2010-09-26, 06:47 AM
You don't get a full attack on a surprise round.
And that is just terrible. ( I hate that rule so much :D)
Would you like it better if you were surprised and your enemies all got to make full attacks against you?

jpreem
2010-09-26, 07:01 AM
It makes the same - some times I'm the ambusher, sone times I'm the guy falling into an ambush. So all and all it doesn't make a difference in this department. (Except it makes you wanna play more intelligently (set ambushes, avoid them, not just kick the door in.)
What is worse that this rule hugely favors casters, who can cast a spell (there are lot of kickass spells that use a standard action), but a ranged guy can only make one attack ( unless he uses manyshot or some feat/magical item etc). And a melee guy? AS usually melee guy can't do a thing.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-26, 07:51 AM
And a melee guy? AS usually melee guy can't do a thing.
If you've got pounce you can make a short-distance charge and full attack. Activate Boots of Speed for a Haste effect. And add a Snap Kick for one more attack, for a total of up to 6 attacks on the surprise round.

There's nothing wrong with the rule; you've just got to build your character intelligently to take the rule into account. And that's a lot better than changing the rule so every mook archer can let loose a full attack on you when you're flat-footed and kill you with no chance to act.

jpreem
2010-09-26, 08:21 AM
Charge is not a standard attack.
So a melee guy has spend feats and get magical items, (probably from out of core) To attack someone. Spellcaster well just attacks.
AS for now enemy spellcasters can ray or orb your flat-footed ass, ( for a flat-footed touch ac) so why couldn't an enemy archer be able to lay some smack.

Greenish
2010-09-26, 08:24 AM
Charge is not a standard attack.You can charge as a standard action on any round you're limited to just a standard action. Pounce allows you to full attack after the charge, and really, most non-ToB melee is going to want it from somewhere anyhow.

jpreem
2010-09-26, 08:27 AM
Ah ok that makes it a bit less sucky for a meleer. ( Pounce is still a thing that is not easy to get in core - doenst matter before 6th level though :smallamused:)

tyckspoon
2010-09-26, 08:29 AM
Charge is not a standard attack.


Partial charge is a standard action. It is explicitly something you are allowed to do when you are not allowed to take a full round action, such as when you are Slowed or in a surprise round.

true_shinken
2010-09-26, 12:49 PM
Not Shadowdancer. Only the Monk of all the SRD classes has shuriken proficiency. Maybe went the Ascetic Rogue route?
That would be fairly expensive. As ammunition, shuriken are destroyed on impact, and 50% of the time if you miss. Since Skillful is a +2 enhancement, even dividing by 50 you're talking 366.2 gp each. And still after taking Point Blank Shot and Far Shot you'd only get to throw at targets 10' and 15' away before the range penalties kick in at 20'.
You could just use daggers with the crystal that gives Quick Draw, I guess.
The Rogue/Shadowdancer in my party never ever punched anyone, so I guess he took EWP for the shuriken, then.

Thespianus
2010-09-26, 03:02 PM
You can't just make simplistic pronouncements; you've got to back them up.
Only way I can see TWF being statistically a lot better than any other alternative is if you take a few levels of arcane caster and go with Wraithstrike.

But, yeah, that's pretty much cheating. :)

Greenish
2010-09-26, 03:20 PM
Only way I can see TWF being statistically a lot better than any other alternative is if you take a few levels of arcane caster and go with Wraithstrike.UMD + Wraithstrike wand(s) wand chambered in your weapons. It's a bit expensive on lower levels though.

Zhalath
2010-09-26, 04:24 PM
That assumption is wrong. You get sneak attack whenever the necessary conditions (target denied Dex, or flanked by you) are met. In some situations, you lose the element of surprise or whatever that denied your target Dex and thus gave you sneak attack after the first hit, but in other situations you don't, and you can just keep on smacking them with that sock full of d6es. Flanking will (barring strange circumstances) give you sneak attack on every attack you land.

I owe my party's rogue PC an apology, then. This should make him and his whip-dagger slinging self very happy.

ffone
2010-09-26, 04:55 PM
You don't get a full attack on a surprise round.
And that is just terrible. ( I hate that rule so much :D)

Oops, I meant 'first round, when she wins initiative' (which rogues of Dex-bonused races often do).

ffone
2010-09-26, 04:59 PM
You could just use daggers with the crystal that gives Quick Draw, I guess.
The Rogue/Shadowdancer in my party never ever punched anyone, so I guess he took EWP for the shuriken, then.

Yes, good advice - those 'least crystals of return' (300 gp, MiC, free action draw for the weapon, 'least' crystals can be put on even non-masterwork weapons) are great, she has them for her 'regular' weapons, and sooner or later may get a bunch more at Magic Items R Us for a few volleys per encounter with better thrown weapons.

Renegade Paladin
2010-09-26, 05:21 PM
Well, there is certain old world charm about rapier & buckler.

Buckler, being as it is fixed to one's wrist, frees up one's hand, to draw and use wands and other handy items (or to actually cast spells, if applicable).
In the game, yeah, for some stupid reason. In reality, bucklers are gripped in the hand. :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-09-26, 08:14 PM
In the game, yeah, for some stupid reason. In reality, bucklers are gripped in the hand. :smalltongue:
http://www.chaobell.net/newgallery/d/1633-2/2dui42b.jpg

Zhalath
2010-09-26, 08:28 PM
http://www.chaobell.net/newgallery/d/1633-2/2dui42b.jpg

That is quite the quantity of caring people.

Is Oversized Two Weapon Fighting worth it at all, or is it just worthless? Am I better off taking Monkey Grip?

Curmudgeon
2010-09-26, 09:28 PM
Yes, good advice - those 'least crystals of return' (300 gp, MiC, free action draw for the weapon, 'least' crystals can be put on even non-masterwork weapons) are great
I think re-reading page 221 of Magic Item Compendium would be a good idea, because your memory is wrong on that point.
A least augment crystal functions whenever attached to an object of at least masterwork quality, even if the object itself has no magical properties.

VirOath
2010-09-26, 09:42 PM
That is quite the quantity of caring people.

Is Oversized Two Weapon Fighting worth it at all, or is it just worthless? Am I better off taking Monkey Grip?

Both of these feats really aren't that good. The gain in damage from the Monkey-Grip feat can easily be covered and surpassed by Power Attack (even assuming a 1 handed weapon) as you take a -2 to hit. Taking with Power Attack is bad, as you lose 2 off of your to hit that could be used for powerattack instead.

And TWF rarely has any gains from the weapon damage dice, it's about modifiers to attacks and alternate sources of damage dice with methods of stacking them. So very rarely will it matter whether you use a Shortsword or a Rapier. Now if you are TWFing with a specific weapon that has a desired effect in both hands (Rapiers of Wounding come to mind) then Oversized TWF can be worthwhile to lessen the penalties and increase your output.

Jack Zander
2010-09-26, 10:15 PM
There are two problems with that statement:

There's no indication that Two-Weapon Fighting will give you more attacks than some other feat choice, such as Snap Kick. As I noted, TWF has zero value unless you're making full attacks.
More hits = more bonus damage, but you've got to demonstrate that TWF will give you more hits. It penalizes all your attacks, and you're only starting with 3/4 BAB.
You can't just make simplistic pronouncements; you've got to back them up.

As I stated before, I have no experience with snap kick so there isn't much I can say about it. It looks to me like it is in all ways far superior to TWF. I personally don't think it fits the flavor the OP was going for, but I concede Snap Kick to be a better mechanical option than TWF in almost all circumstances.

As for TWF giving you more hits per round than a single weapon:
Assume our theoretical rogue is a human with a 15 starting Dex and 10 Str. We will also assume that he is always flanking for the method of sneak attack. His weapons are enchanted to a minimum of the sample NPCs found in the DMG.

CR 3 Average AC: 16
Both rogues grab Weapon Finesse at this level, no question.
TWF chance to hit on each attack (+2 BAB +2 Dex +2 Flanking +1 MW Weapon -2 TWF): 50% / 50%
TWF chance to hit at S&B max possible hits: 75%
S&B chance to hit on each attack (+2 BAB +2 Dex +2 Flanking +1 MW Weapon): 60%

CR 6 Average AC: 19
Our rogues have each increased their Dex at 4th level. In addition, they both can easily afford Gloves of Dex +2.
TWF chance to hit on each attack: (+4 BAB +4 Dex +2 Flanking +1 MW Weapon -2 TWF): 55% / 55%
TWF chance to hit at S&B max possible hits: 79.75%
S&B chance to hit on each attack (+4 BAB +4 Dex +2 Flanking +1 MW Weapon): 65%

CR 9 Average AC: 21
Our Rogues have again increased their DEX at level 8. TWF spends his feat on Improved TWF but stops there (I don't think I'm going to try to make the argument that an extra attack at -10 is worth it).
TWF chance to hit on each attack (+6 BAB +4 Dex +2 Flanking +1 Weapon -2 TWF): 55% / 55% / 30% / 30%
Chance to hit at S&B max possible hits: 79.75% / 51%
S&B chance to hit on each attack (+6 BAB +4 Dex +2 Flanking +1 Weapon): 65% / 40%

CR 12 Average AC: 24
Our Rogues have increased Dex yet again and can now afford Gloves of Dex +4.
TWF chance to hit on each attack (+9 BAB +6 Dex +2 Flanking +1 Weapon -2 TWF): 65% / 65% / 40% / 40%
TWF chance to hit at S&B max possible hits: 87.75% / 64%
S&B chance to hit on each attack (+9 BAB +6 Dex +2 Flanking +1 Weapon): 75% / 50%

CR 15 Average AC: 31
Our rogues have each purchased Gloves of Dex +6. Greater TWF is not worth the feat as an extra 5% chance to hit is ... foolish.
TWF chance to hit on each attack (+11 BAB +7 Dex +2 Flanking +2 Weapon -2 TWF): 50% / 50% / 25% / 25% / 5%
TWF chance to hit at S&B max possible hits: 75% / 43.75% / 5%
S&B chance to hit on each attack (+11 BAB +7 Dex +2 Flanking +2 Weapon): 60% / 35% / 10%

CR 18 Average AC: 34
Our rogues have purchased a +2 Manual of Quickness of Action and increased their Dex at level 16.
TWF chance to hit on each attack (+13 BAB +8 Dex +2 Flanking +2 Weapon -2 TWF): 50% / 50% / 25% / 25% / 5%
TWF chance to hit at S&B max possible hits: 75% / 43.75% / 5%
S&B chance to hit on each attack (+13 BAB +8 Dex +2 Flanking +2 Weapon): 60% / 35% / 10%

As you can see, having an extra +2 to hit is not nearly as good as having more rolls of the dice. The TWF is more likely to not miss at all during a round, and is actually more likely to hit just as often as a S&B rogue, if not more.

It should be obvious that two 50% chances are much better than one 60% chance, and more rolls of the dice means more critical threats (which are much harder to score than critical confirmations).

Source of ACs (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/138024-average-ac-hp-core-monsters-cr.html)

VirOath
2010-09-26, 10:51 PM
Jack, now be fair and give the other side comparative feats. Providing one side with combat feats and not the other skews the results.

And the argument is that S&B will yield more hits over time, as the S&B rogue will be up longer. So start comparing average mob To hits vs AC, with attacks per round averaged and see how many more rounds the S&B will be up.

Even better, do the same with Snap Kick on the S&B rogue.

A rogue will not get full attacks in most rounds without pounce so doing a full attack comparison proves little.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-27, 12:10 AM
Jack, now be fair and give the other side comparative feats. Providing one side with combat feats and not the other skews the results.
I've already specified the feats to use for rapier + buckler (Craven at level 6, Snap Kick at level 9), so this should be easy to work into the comparison. You pick up Bracers of Striking and +1 rapier at the same time the TWF option picks up 2 +1 short swords. You add keen to the rapier when you boost just one of the short swords to +2, and also boost the buckler enhancement when you boost the other short sword.

You need to adjust the flanking percentage way down, around 50% instead of 100%; with higher initiative you'll probably get to every enemy a round before your flanking partner. Also reduce the percentage of full attacks down to around 50%. You'll never start a combat with TWF full attacks, and when an enemy drops you'll likely (more likely with TWF) miss out on part of your full attack that round, and then only get one attack the next round as you're required to move.

Jack Zander
2010-09-27, 12:42 AM
Snap Kick always beats out TWF except in maybe rare circumstances. I'm not arguing that. The argument you asked me to make was that a TWF rogue will hit more often than a S&B rogue. I left everything else out because I'm not arguing about damage over time or whether more attacks are better than AC or whatever. Curmudgeon simply asked me to back up my statement that having more attacks a round = more hits a round. I believe I've done that.

The reason I assumed they were flanking all the time was for simplicity in the calculations. Both rogues need a method of sneak attack, otherwise they are next to useless anyway. If you are concerned about full attacks with a TWF, its pretty easy to gain pounce, and remember that if the TWF isn't full attacking, neither is the S&B and the TWF will have the same bonuses as the S&B on a single attack, so nothing is lost.

Now if you want to take my calculations further and factor in feats then I surely encourage you to do so for the purpose of optimization. TWF can also take craven without problem at level 6. As far as equipment goes, a S&B rogue could probably spare a little extra on his weapon, but there is little reason to go past a +1 until higher levels. He'd be better off boosting his AC to play to his strengths (or getting items that give him more options).

To get back to my base argument, I said that a TWF will almost always win out over a S&B against a single enemy, but that a S&B will mow down mooks all day long and never get tired. This is the situation S&B excels at and I doubt (prove me wrong if you think otherwise) that a S&B will have as much staying power against a boss monster, since they are likely to hit anything not optimized for AC fairly easily anyway.

OP, you should take note that in some situations more damage over time is preferred (this is where a higher AC rogue might excel, provided his AC is optimized high enough to compensate for a TWF rogue's damage output). In other situations high burst damage is required. Know your build's strengths and weaknesses. No one style is best for all situations. A high survivability rogue will be good at surviving, but he may not be able to take down the baddie fast enough to prevent his friends from dying.

Greenish
2010-09-27, 03:27 AM
http://www.chaobell.net/newgallery/d/1633-2/2dui42b.jpgI'm the guy waving in the extreme left, behind the short bespectacled one.

ffone
2010-09-27, 03:51 AM
I think re-reading page 221 of Magic Item Compendium would be a good idea, because your memory is wrong on that point.

Thanks!

So 600gp per thrown weapon instead of 300gp. At least that means +1 attack w/ them.

(Are thrown weapons always recovered? Or destroyed like ammunition?)

Greenish
2010-09-27, 04:12 AM
(Are thrown weapons always recovered? Or destroyed like ammunition?)Thrown weapons (other than shuriken) will not break on use, and can thus be recovered.