PDA

View Full Version : Factotum and Artificer, where are you? [3.5]



SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 04:51 AM
I keep hearing about the Factotum and Artificer, and they seem quite interesting. I just can't find any info about where (Internet, which book) can I find them.

So, could someone tell me? :smallconfused:

Player3
2010-09-24, 04:56 AM
Factotum is in Dungeonscape
Artificer in the Eberron Campaign Setting

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 05:03 AM
Okay, thanks.

[random comment]
Even though people keep complaining about the over or under-poweredness of some classes (overpowered in this case), they are fine with my group. Nobody's a real optimiser, and party actually spends most of their time saving the Wizard.
[/random comment]

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 05:10 AM
Who complains about Factotum balance?

It is what the Rogue should be and is on par with ToB as the power level sweet spot for the game.

Now we just need a good caster class. Psion works if you modify some of the powers.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 05:31 AM
I recently saw someone complaining about Factotum being broken somehow. Didn't spot an explanation, but I think it was about it being well-designed but badly-made.

I like Psion anyway. It combines three things I like: spontaneous "casting", a mana-like system and being able to kill stuff with your brain.

hamishspence
2010-09-24, 05:33 AM
The Factotum can get a lot of actions via taking the Font of Inspiration feat lots of times (online at the WoTC site). Which can lead to brokenness.

Aside from that, it's pretty good.

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 05:39 AM
Even that doesn't really get broken until you bring in gestalt and start using it to do fun stuff.

I mean it's there but everything pretty much has at least 1 broken combo or ability.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 05:56 AM
When I find an interesting class, I usually make an example character with it. Currently I'm making a gestalt Factotum//Artificer (both benefit from high Int), which I plan to use as a back-up character in a certain gestalt campaign. I don't really optimise much, I just try to make fun/interesting characters.

BTW, what would be a good feat for a flaw? I'm making it 10th level, so I have most item creation feats, and also Font of Inspiration, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Exceptional Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan. Remember, practically no prerequisites, as it's a flaw.

BTW #2, what would be a good Craft skill that allows me to craft as many custom items as possible? I'm thinking about "Mechanics" or "Clockwork", as most standard items can easily be supplied, but anything clockwork-resemblant will probably have to be self-crafted.

HunterOfJello
2010-09-24, 06:07 AM
Font of Inspiration again
and again



Font of Inspiration gets better each time you take it, and is definitely worth it for at least 3-4 times.

~

Factotum//Artificer makes a powerful combo. You'll be able to cast twice per turn and ignore spell resistance by using Inspiration points.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 06:41 AM
Okay, I'm just checking that I got it right with magic item creation.
A quite standard item: Rocket Boots: Wondrous Item, CL 5, Fly, 50 charges. Thus, according to the table on page 285 of the DMG...
CL 5 x spell level 3 x 750 = 11,250 gp. Take away 25% for Extraordinary Artisan, and it's 8437,5 gp. Can probably be raised to 10,000 gp by fiat.

So, is the cost right?

Also, with these rules, the Bag of Holding is far underpriced. It requires a level 5 spell and CL 9th and is a continuous effect, totaling it up at 45,000 gp. However, it is only priced as 2,500-10,000 gp?

ANOTHER thing confuzzling me... where do the XP costs on many magic items come from? Most of the spells used don't even use XP components.

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-24, 08:30 AM
WOTC decided that instead of crafting items being a LEARNING experience, it was actually the exact opposite so now you get dumber if you make pants. Who knew!? You lose 4% of the magic item's market price in XP.

Also, keep in mind that the "MAGIC ITEM VALUE" chart determines MARKET price, not crafting price.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-24, 08:34 AM
Also, with these rules, the Bag of Holding is far underpriced. It requires a level 5 spell and CL 9th and is a continuous effect, totaling it up at 45,000 gp. However, it is only priced as 2,500-10,000 gp?


Some magic items are cheaper or more expensive than rules would dictate. This is on purpose.

They wanted some things less easy to acess (Ring of Regen, even thoigh it has weak abilities fror cost) and others more easy (Bag of holding).

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 09:06 AM
WOTC decided that instead of crafting items being a LEARNING experience, it was actually the exact opposite so now you get dumber if you make pants. Who knew!? You lose 4% of the magic item's market price in XP.

Also, keep in mind that the "MAGIC ITEM VALUE" chart determines MARKET price, not crafting price.
Oh. That explains it. However, isn't 4% a kind of funny number? I think we're looking at a case of false smallness here.
Are we talking about table 7-33? If it determined market price, a +2 weapon would only cost 4000 gp (instead of 8000 gp) and a Gloves of Dexterity +2 would cost 2000 gp (instead of 4000 gp). So, it either isn't market price, or WoTC messed up once again.


Some magic items are cheaper or more expensive than rules would dictate. This is on purpose.

They wanted some things less easy to acess (Ring of Regen, even thoigh it has weak abilities fror cost) and others more easy (Bag of holding).
So, does this mean I should be allowed to create a Bag of Holding for the lower cost? (the one given in the item description)

shadow_archmagi
2010-09-24, 09:17 AM
Oh. That explains it. However, isn't 4% a kind of funny number? I think we're looking at a case of false smallness here.
Are we talking about table 7-33? If it determined market price, a +2 weapon would only cost 4000 gp (instead of 8000 gp) and a Gloves of Dexterity +2 would cost 2000 gp (instead of 4000 gp). So, it either isn't market price, or WoTC messed up once again.


So, does this mean I should be allowed to create a Bag of Holding for the lower cost? (the one given in the item description)


1. 1/25th is the number in the books.
2. Whoops! I am the dumb.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 09:23 AM
Whoops! I am the dumb.
Who's a dum-dum? You are! Yes you are, yes you are!
The app is finished and here, if anyone cares:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=242546
Lacks some minor detail, but meh.

The Self-Supplying crossbow is a custom item. It makes it's own ammo out of magic, making it unnecessary to carry ammo and speeding up the reload time to non-existance. However, the ammo deal magical damage and are suspect to SR. Sound fair? Is it +1, like I thought, or maybe +2?

Douglas
2010-09-24, 09:32 AM
Are we talking about table 7-33? If it determined market price, a +2 weapon would only cost 4000 gp (instead of 8000 gp) and a Gloves of Dexterity +2 would cost 2000 gp (instead of 4000 gp). So, it either isn't market price, or WoTC messed up once again.
We're talking about this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues). Which number is assigned to that table in the book, I couldn't tell you right now.

Regardless, crafting a magic item normally costs 1/2 the market price in gp and 1/25 the market price in xp. A +2 weapon has a market price of 8000 gp, and therefore costs 8000/2 = 4000 gp and 8000/25 = 320 xp to craft. Whenever you see crafting prices given in an item description, they will usually match that formula exactly. Any exceptions are almost always due to duplicating the effect of a spell that has either an expensive material component or an xp cost. The material or xp cost of the spell is added once per charge (continuous unlimited use effect counts as 100 charges) directly to both the crafting and market prices, with xp converted into gp at a rate of 1 xp = 5 gp for market price only. This is why crafting a Tome of Clear Thought costs so little gold and so much xp - you have to pay the 5000 xp cost of the Wish it's duplicating, and that xp cost converted to gp accounts for most of the item's market price.


So, does this mean I should be allowed to create a Bag of Holding for the lower cost? (the one given in the item description)
The price given in the specific item description always trumps any formula. Many of those prices are derived from the formulas, many are not.

In the specific case of a Bag of Holding, the item is not, in fact, duplicating any spell's effect. The spell listed there is required in order to make the item and does something similar, but without exact duplication of the spell the "spell effect" formula does not apply. The price is instead based on an estimation of how much the designers think the item's actual precise effect is actually worth. The continuous spell effect formula in particular is known to be spectacularly unreliable in producing prices that correspond to how powerful an item would be, and careful DM judgment and price adjustment is strongly advised for designing new custom items of that type.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 10:31 AM
So, should I be able to make a Bag of Holding type I for 1,250 gp and 100 exp? That's 1/2 and 1/25 of the market price, respectively.

Douglas
2010-09-24, 10:32 AM
Correct...

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 10:35 AM
Okey-dokey. Doesn't matter for this particular character, however. I didn't need to carry anything especially big, so I just took Belt of Many Pockets. It also helped with my limited carrying capacity.

Hague
2010-09-24, 10:43 AM
Belt is a nice item, I'd rather have a Handy Haversack myself, though. Quick draw + Haversack = Bomb Throwing Machine. If you pick up Alchemical Savant, you can make spell vials that let you make potions that act as spell-bombs. Later, you can combine alchemical items or poisons with potions and spell vials for extra bomb-fun action. The Unbound Scroll is a cool PrC for Artificers too, since it lets you recast the same scroll multiple times and reduces the cost for to make scrolls.

Duke of URL
2010-09-24, 10:58 AM
Even that doesn't really get broken until you bring in gestalt and start using it to do fun stuff.

I mean it's there but everything pretty much has at least 1 broken combo or ability.

I automatically roll my eyes when I see Factotum used in gestalt. It's such a crutch, and really not necessary when the rules already let you have so many different options for abilities. One of the whole point of gestalt is to try strange things out, yet almost every INT-based build has Factotum in it.

I'm not overly fond of it in regular play, either, but that's simply personal taste, not because it's overpowered (assuming you reign in Font of Inspiration abuse).

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 11:11 AM
I automatically roll my eyes when I see Factotum used in gestalt. It's such a crutch, and really not necessary when the rules already let you have so many different options for abilities. One of the whole point of gestalt is to try strange things out, yet almost every INT-based build has Factotum in it.

I'm not overly fond of it in regular play, either, but that's simply personal taste, not because it's overpowered (assuming you reign in Font of Inspiration abuse).

It's nice but it's not the best combination.

I probably prefer Warblade//Psion for my non broken gestalt builds.

Draz74
2010-09-24, 11:25 AM
It's nice but it's not the best combination.

I probably prefer Warblade//Psion for my non broken gestalt builds.

I do love me some Factotum 8 / Warblade 12 // Psion 20. But I wouldn't put in any Font of Inspiration at all ... Cunning Surge 1/encounter isn't so terribly broken, especially when not comboed with Synchronicity abuse.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-24, 11:25 AM
Like I said, it's not supposed to be optimized. I'm just trying to make a fun character while simultaneously experimenting with two new classes.