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View Full Version : Wizard vs. Sorceror [3.5]



crazywolf
2010-09-24, 04:58 AM
same hit die, same spells, same decent saving throws
i would like to fix this but i need help because i have very little time to work on this. one of my players is a sorceror and i would like to fix the class before the adventure starts. i have come up with some details but i need more "profesional" help
* the sorceror is more of an elementalist and they gain their power inately and from the elements around them
* sorcerors cant use divination, or illusion
*wizards get more support spells and the sorceror is more offencive (i'm not sure how to blance them)
thats about it i would like to hear your thoghts and opinions

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 05:14 AM
Just replace the Sorcerer with the Psion, possible with the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

Now they are balanced while actually being different.

EDIT: And the mechanics now actually match the flavor.

crazywolf
2010-09-24, 05:17 AM
I dont have that book :smallfrown: i have the core, complete adventurer, and complete warrior

hamishspence
2010-09-24, 05:20 AM
The SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/

has all the rules needed to play a psion.

Dr.Epic
2010-09-24, 05:21 AM
Variant in Unearthed Arcana: Battle Sorcerer

I can't remember all the things they get, but here's a few:

-1d8 of HD
-They get the BAB of a cleric
-They are now proficient in light armor and do not incur spell failure while wearing light armor
-replace bluff with intimidate for skills
-they learn one less spell per level (I think? someone double check that)
-they cast one less spell for each spell level they can cast

Raendyn
2010-09-24, 05:21 AM
if i get it correctly you wanna boost the sorceror right?

give him new spells every odd lvl. (1-3-5...)

add few wizard skills to sorc class skills,

Don't forget that at low lvls sorcerors are better that wizards so don't overboost him on low lvls.

don't know if it would be too much to increase skill points per lvl, hit dice, spells known.:smallbiggrin:

or,don't touch the class at all and:

show him ultimate magus handbook.

or, forbid tier 1 classes. thatmakes sorc a great one :smallsigh:

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 05:23 AM
Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)

Just have powers known be drawn from the Sor/Wiz spell list. Perhaps have level 0 Spells become once per encounter powers (with 5 a minute recovery time out of combat).

hamishspence
2010-09-24, 05:23 AM
If you haven't got Unearthed Arcana, the aforementioned SRD has a lot of the rules in it.

Myth
2010-09-24, 05:49 AM
Variant in Unearthed Arcana: Battle Sorcerer

I can't remember all the things they get, but here's a few:

-1d8 of HD
-They get the BAB of a cleric
-They are now proficient in light armor and do not incur spell failure while wearing light armor
-replace bluff with intimidate for skills
-they learn one less spell per level (I think? someone double check that)
-they cast one less spell for each spell level they can cast

You! Leave this place and never return!

OP: Sorcerers make good Blasters and Counterspellers. Both are inferior choices to battlefield control/debuff/SOD however. Spell selection is what makes them Tier 2 potential, and there are plenty of arcane spell guides out there.

Malbordeus
2010-09-24, 05:51 AM
or use the pathfinder sorceror?

powers based on bloodline...

BobVosh
2010-09-24, 05:55 AM
or use the pathfinder sorceror?

powers based on bloodline...

This or Psion.

Pathfinder sorc version: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/sorcerer.html#sorcerer

Rad
2010-09-24, 05:57 AM
same hit die, same spells, same decent saving throws
i would like to fix this but i need help because i have very little time to work on this. one of my players is a sorceror and i would like to fix the class before the adventure starts. i have come up with some details but i need more "profesional" help
* the sorceror is more of an elementalist and they gain their power inately and from the elements around them
* sorcerors cant use divination, or illusion
*wizards get more support spells and the sorceror is more offencive (i'm not sure how to blance them)
thats about it i would like to hear your thoghts and opinions
It's not clear what is the problem you want to fix. Is it that they are too similar? Or the fact that the sorcerer is weaker?
Taking the psion from SRD looks like a really good in either case though.

HunterOfJello
2010-09-24, 06:10 AM
Pathfinder would make a nice boost, although they'll never really become equal.

Marnath
2010-09-24, 08:47 AM
You! Leave this place and never return!


Noo! I like battle sorceror too. It's not bad. Makes a decent spellsword.

Shenanigans
2010-09-24, 09:12 AM
Variant in Unearthed Arcana: Battle Sorcerer

I can't remember all the things they get, but here's a few:

-1d8 of HD
-They get the BAB of a cleric
-They are now proficient in light armor and do not incur spell failure while wearing light armor
-replace bluff with intimidate for skills
-they learn one less spell per level (I think? someone double check that)
-they cast one less spell for each spell level they can cast
I think this is almost a better way to have done Warmage, or at least a decent gish base class.

Forged Fury
2010-09-24, 09:48 AM
A number of folks consider Battle Sorcerer a trap. I personally enjoy it, but don't tend to play above Level 10-12.

Marnath
2010-09-24, 09:54 AM
A number of folks consider Battle Sorcerer a trap. I personally enjoy it, but don't tend to play above Level 10-12.

Yes, some people complain about it because "blasters are sub par compared to other arcanes, blah blah blah." Those are the same people who in the next breath ask "how can I stop the wizard from breaking my game with his incredibly broken power?"

If you can't see the correlation there I really can't help you. :smallwink:

Tael
2010-09-24, 10:32 AM
Yes, some people complain about it because "blasters are sub par compared to other arcanes, blah blah blah." Those are the same people who in the next breath ask "how can I stop the wizard from breaking my game with his incredibly broken power?"

If you can't see the correlation there I really can't help you. :smallwink:

No people consider it trap since is pretty much strictly worse than the standard sorcerer. The fewer spells known is devastating to a sorc who already has way too few spells.

Kylarra
2010-09-24, 10:37 AM
The biggest problem with the battle sorcerer is that if you plan on PrCing out, you lose most of the benefits for those levels and keep all the drawbacks.

WarKitty
2010-09-24, 10:43 AM
Maybe take the battle sorcerer but give them the normal spell progression and spells known?

thompur
2010-09-24, 10:45 AM
I have been working on something similar.
Three things:
1: Give them separate spell lists. This can be time consuming(but I'm currently under-employed, so I have the time) but I think it helps. I go through the lists and pick some spells to be Sorcerer only(mostly elemental types), Some Wizard only(what I call 'book' spells), and some that are shared can be different level for each class. This is also an oppertunity to weed out spells that are broken, or don't fit into your world view.

2: Give Sorcerers 4 skill points/ level

3: Give Sorcerers bonus feats including Eskew Material Components, which I extend to any value, Balanced by not having spells with high(500+gp)value on the sorcerer list.

Now, I have more books, including the Spell Compendium, so it's easier to balance. I like to give Sorcerers bonus heritage feats the way Wizards get Item creation or meta-magic feats. If you don't have access to heritage feats, Make them Meta-magic, and change Wizards to Item creation only.

Telonius
2010-09-24, 11:31 AM
My own houserules for Sorcerers: d6, proficient with rapier, no extra time for Metamagic, free Eschew Materials at level 1 (affects Sorcerer spells only).

I've toyed with the idea of giving them free Improved Familiar at some point and Buckler proficiency from the start. Also considered: something like the Rogue's abilities, but taken from Dragon Disciple goodies.

Marnath
2010-09-24, 12:11 PM
No people consider it trap since is pretty much strictly worse than the standard sorcerer. The fewer spells known is devastating to a sorc who already has way too few spells.

*headdesk*

Yes, worse than the Tier 2 sorceror. Which brings it down to only one or two higher than the typical melee classes. Which brings the power level closer to where the rest of the game is.

Kaje
2010-09-24, 12:13 PM
Now, I have more books, including the Spell Compendium, so it's easier to balance. I like to give Sorcerers bonus heritage feats the way Wizards get Item creation or meta-magic feats. If you don't have access to heritage feats, Make them Meta-magic, and change Wizards to Item creation only.I prefer removing the wizard's bonus feats entirely.

Tael
2010-09-24, 01:36 PM
*headdesk*

Yes, worse than the Tier 2 sorceror. Which brings it down to only one or two higher than the typical melee classes. Which brings the power level closer to where the rest of the game is.

That doesn't change the fact that it's a trap. Just because it's a much needed nerf doesn't change the fact that it is a nerf. I force all druids to be PF druids, or shapeshift, and I do so because I recognize it as a trap.

Nero24200
2010-09-24, 04:23 PM
Give them spells levels on odd levels rather than have them lag behind. It's bad enough that they lag behind wizards for no real reason, but it also applies to classes like druids and clerics that get a little more than just spells.

Esser-Z
2010-09-24, 05:10 PM
Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)

Just have powers known be drawn from the Sor/Wiz spell list. Perhaps have level 0 Spells become once per encounter powers (with 5 a minute recovery time out of combat).

Make the level 0 spells at will, and do the same for everyone else.

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-24, 05:16 PM
Make the level 0 spells at will, and do the same for everyone else.

Nah, that can become broken.

I would actually do ML+Int mod level 0 spells per day, with no spell being usable more often than once per 5 minutes. Would probably make that apply to all casters.

Esser-Z
2010-09-24, 05:19 PM
Nah, that can become broken.

Eh. Not too badly so (this is a lie), and the increase in FUN factor is a much bigger issue, in my mind. Playing as a mage, I want to access magic all day long, at least to some extent.

I don't think that enjoyment of the game should be lost because it's possible to exploit it.

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-24, 05:23 PM
I generally houserule that they get Eschew Material Components as a bonus feat.

Add Intimidate to the class skill list.

(I like the above idea, of boosting skillpoints to 4+int)

Then there are a few campaign specific feats that help, like Bloodline of Fire, and one third party feat, that, IIRC adds the bonus spells, instead of just to the spells per day, also to the spells known.

Endarire
2010-09-24, 06:22 PM
Psionics rules are free in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/). Check the middle column, the second section from the top.

I also recommend treating Sorcerers as one level higher for purposes of spells known and per day. It's a simple fix to Sorcerers lagging behind.

As an aside, Sorcerers are potent, but generally gimped compared to Wizards. A simple fix: Each day when a prepared caster would prepare spells, let all spontaneous casters change one spell they know per spell level. It gives day-to-day versatility with less infringement upon the know-it-all prepared casters.

Marnath
2010-09-25, 12:15 AM
Psionics rules are free in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/). Check the middle column, the second section from the top.

I also recommend treating Sorcerers as one level higher for purposes of spells known and per day. It's a simple fix to Sorcerers lagging behind.

As an aside, Sorcerers are potent, but generally gimped compared to Wizards. A simple fix: Each day when a prepared caster would prepare spells, let all spontaneous casters change one spell they know per spell level. It gives day-to-day versatility with less infringement upon the know-it-all prepared casters.

Hmm, that could work, maybe.