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PrismCat21
2010-09-24, 12:31 PM
I'm currently in a gestalt campaign taking place in the Nine Layers of Hell. Me and 5 others are in a gladiatorial match each session facing stronger and stronger devils/demons purely for the enjoyment of the Nine Lords. Knowing this GM I believe we'll be facing all of the Nine at some point and would like some advice on how to get through their defenses in combat, especially Asmodeus.

We're using Pathfinder rules but anything from regular 3.5 is allowed. This is main'y just for kicks and giggles and aren't concerned with a whole lot of roleplaying or storytelling. - We had no idea what kind of a campaign it was going to be till we started :smallamused:

I'm a Dread Necromancer/Oracle (21 CHA) with the Life Mystery, focusing mainly on keeping eveyone else alive. Don't know yet if we'll be going into epic lvl's but would like to plan as if we aren't. Any suggestions for magic items and spells useful against the Nine would be much appreciated.

Myth
2010-09-24, 01:00 PM
Wish/Miracle, Time Stop, Disjunction, Shapechange. I hope you have a full Arcane caster there.

PrismCat21
2010-09-24, 01:08 PM
I'm pretty much the closet they got to a full arcane caster. The only other 'potential' has always played a barbarian, and honestly won't be able to grasp alot of what a spellcaster can do.

Caliphbubba
2010-09-24, 01:10 PM
I'm pretty much the closet they got to a full arcane caster. The only other 'potential' has always played a barbarian, and honestly won't be able to grasp alot of what a spellcaster can do.

eh. you're either doomed or just probably doomed then.

really depends on what rendition of the Lords of the Nine the DM uses.

what else have you got in the party?

Mando Knight
2010-09-24, 01:11 PM
Asmodeus will rock you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8niNHOs_kU) like a hurricane. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxdmw4tJJ1Y&ob=av3e) Gods don't mess with him. Some people think his promotion to godhood in 4e is just kicking him upstairs (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickedUpstairs)--that he was already powerful enough, and his "promotion" was actually a demotion, partly thanks to the additional restrictions to what he can do with mortals as a deity.

Greymane
2010-09-24, 01:11 PM
Er. Hm. Asmodeus is a nasty opponent. Hope you don't have to fight the Interplanar Archaic version of Dr. Doom.

I highly recommend Time Stop and Celerity (have the caster find a way to make himself immune to being Stunned). Disjunction could be nasty, but if he has his Rod, and you nail THAT, you lose all your arcane power forever.

Can he be level drained? Twinned Empowered Enervations are also good.

Edit: I pretty much echo Mando Knight on this. Hope his terrible vision doesn't fall upon you, because he'll wreck you.

RebelRogue
2010-09-24, 01:14 PM
I highly recommend Time Stop and Celerity (have the caster find a way to make himself immune to being Stunned). Disjunction could be nasty, but if he has his Rod, and you nail THAT, you lose all your arcane power forever.

Can he be level drained? Twinned Empowered Enervations are also good.


I'm pretty much the closet they got to a full arcane caster.

..........

Greymane
2010-09-24, 01:15 PM
..........

Okay, forgive my reading skills. I recommend not fighting him. Ever.

PrismCat21
2010-09-24, 01:21 PM
There is a Sorceror/Rogue. but like I said. The only thing this guy has ever played before is a Barbarian. The reason is, he's comfortable with that, he doesn't much understand anything else. He wanted to try a Rogue and just threw the Sorceror on for fun.

Zaydos
2010-09-24, 01:27 PM
It really matters what rendition of Asmodeus your DM is using. The CR 27 version in FCII is vulnerable to level drain for example, he also has some pretty potent special abilities and Lv 20 Cleric casting but should still be able to be defeated by a well built team of non-epic characters; you just have to be able to reliably make DC 36 Will saves (or mind blank, lots of mind blank).

Other people use much, much stronger stats for him because the fluff for Asmodeus (pretty much the devil as Mary Sue) says he's the most powerful force ever and is just waiting a little longer before bringing down all the gods.

DragonBaneDM
2010-09-24, 02:48 PM
Run dude runnnnn!!!

What are you guys down there to retrieve? Cause if your mission is to kill Asmodeus, I recommend finding whoever sent you on this task, and get revenge on them for almost killing you.

If you get out, that is. And if you do, it's cause Asmodeus planned it.

Xefas
2010-09-24, 03:41 PM
I think your best bet at surviving this is a pretty simple strategy. However, it does assume that your party will be significantly high level (18+). After fighting through the previous eight Archdukes of Hell, I would *hope* you'd be that high a level, but you never know. You'll also probably need some means to win initiative with one of the characters in the party. If you can't get Celerity, or a magic item of Celerity, or something like Nerveskitter, you may want to invest in Improved Initiative at the very least.

Alright, so, this is a big gladiatorial arena. Asmodeus will step out to challenge you, initiative will be rolled.

As you win initiative, you have to yell something to the effect of "Lord Asmodeus, sir. I don't think you want to kill us. We managed to soundly wreck all of your underlings, eight of the layers of your domain sit leaderless, and I think we have more than proven ourselves capable champions. Wouldn't it make more logical sense that, rather than kill us, you just promote us to Archduke status and we rule as your faithful lieutenants for all time?"

And then, Asmodeus should probably say something like "Huh. Well, that was kind of my plan all along. Kudos for catching on so quickly."

And then you both win.

Zaydos
2010-09-24, 03:47 PM
The thing is game mechanically Asmodeus isn't that strong. He has a powerful DC 37 save or lose a turn aura, and a DC 37 save or lose, and then he's a 20th level cleric with better saves, and no DMM. Oh and he has Power Word Kill. 4 on 1 though if you all have good enough Will saves (or Mind Blank to stop the mind-affecting save or lose, and Power Word Kill) he can be defeated by normal strategies. Game mechanically he's weaker than Deity and Demigods deities.

People forget this since most things written about Asmodeus are all about how he's an invincible evil mastermind who never makes mistakes and always has the perfect Xanatos Roulette (a.k.a. a Villain Sue). These don't make sense in setting even, though, as if they were true Asmodeus would have taken over reality as overdeity long ago. You could explain them as biased propaganda from Asmodeus himself which would make them make sense, but also imply that he has succeeded in controlling the lion's share of information about himself that has managed to leak out (strangely in keeping with his established fluff).

Esser-Z
2010-09-24, 03:52 PM
These don't make sense in setting even, though, as if they were true Asmodeus would have taken over reality as overdeity long ago.
I dunno, I don't think Double P, praise His Scaliness, would allow that.

Zaydos
2010-09-24, 03:58 PM
I dunno, I don't think Double P, praise His Scaliness, would allow that.

Ah but if you read half the fluff Pun Pun can only be part of Asmodeus's plan. Which is exactly why I'm saying the fluff is ridiculous, renders Asmodeus unusable in an actual game, and answers of you can't win because Asmodeus always does is based purely on that fluff and not productive to the question at hand.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-24, 04:03 PM
It depends in a large way which Asmodeus you come across. There is a Dicefreaks version that you wouldn't have a prayer to kill unless you were a 4 person party of ultra-cheesed out TO level 30+ wizards with 3.0e Epic Spellcasting in play. Heck, you might need more levels than that.

In that writeup, Asmodeus IS an over-deity. He has a Divine Rank of 18 and, while in Hell, has a Cosmic Rank of 21.

Xefas
2010-09-24, 04:08 PM
People forget this since most things written about Asmodeus are all about how he's an invincible evil mastermind who never makes mistakes and always has the perfect Xanatos Roulette (a.k.a. a Villain Sue). These don't make sense in setting even, though, as if they were true Asmodeus would have taken over reality as overdeity long ago.

Sure they make sense in setting.

Take one of the Good-aligned Paragons. Say, Talisid. Talisid doesn't have to worry about much. A couple demons might show up now and again that he has to handle, and the occasional devil will try to corrupt one of his followers and he deals with that.

Asmodeus is simultaneously fighting the entirety of Good, along with the entirety of Evil that isn't him. He's even fighting against the Lawful Evil folk who all want him dead to take his position.

Talisid doesn't have to worry about the Neutral Goodies, as they all like him and want him to continue his benevolent rule. He doesn't have to worry about open hostility between Elysium and the other Good-aligned Outer Planes, though minor disagreements may arise. AND he doesn't have to worry about most of the Evil-aligned Planes because Asmodeus is already handling them.

Asmodeus has to be the perfect evil mastermind to be able to, at once:
1) Survive when all of his "allies" would like to kill him.
2) Fight a war against an infinite force with a non-infinite force to a stand-still (the Blood War)
3) Keep up his power base by corrupting the mortal souls of the Material Plane despite 5 Upper Planes working simultaneously against him
4) Fight the Forces of Good which all want him dead

And he does this all without divine powers. And he seems to maintain a social life at the same time (he had a wife and daughter, for instance). And he seems to think that, in the end, against these odds, he'll eventually come out on top.

Saying he's not an amazing evil mastermind is like telling someone they're not an amazing martial artist, because they were only able to hold their own against 30 dudes armed with semi-automatic sniper rifle grenade launchers, while naked and hand-cuffed, but eventually "only" got to a stalemate.

Talon Sky
2010-09-24, 04:10 PM
As you win initiative, you have to yell something to the effect of "Lord Asmodeus, sir. I don't think you want to kill us. We managed to soundly wreck all of your underlings, eight of the layers of your domain sit leaderless, and I think we have more than proven ourselves capable champions. Wouldn't it make more logical sense that, rather than kill us, you just promote us to Archduke status and we rule as your faithful lieutenants for all time?"

And then, Asmodeus should probably say something like "Huh. Well, that was kind of my plan all along. Kudos for catching on so quickly."

And then you both win.

This. Simply this.

Zaydos
2010-09-24, 04:18 PM
snip

Except Asmodeus isn't fighting all of the good guys. The archons help him in the Blood War, and the others spend as much time fighting the Tanar'ri as him (and he didn't need to do anything to cause either of these that's just in the nature of celestials). And Asmodeus doesn't handle the Gray Waste at all, in fact the Yugoloths are manipulating both the Baatezu and Tanar'ri into fighting the Blood War and somehow Asmodeus doesn't catch on (although the original explanation was that the Lords of the Nine didn't take part in the Blood War at all). The forces of the Abyss are never verified to be infinite, and flip-flop between "sages say they're infinite and spawn freely from the Abyss" and "they're limited by the number of mortal souls the Abyss gets" (last I knew all Tanar'ri but Succubi fell into the latter category and the Obyriths don't fight in the Blood War). The Tanar'ri are also busy fighting each other so only a finite fraction fights the Blood War.

Of your list of 4 things that say he's an evil mastermind #1 is true, with #2 being something hinted at as possibly true, #3 as patently untrue (the Lords of the Upper Planes actively try to keep the Blood War running to manipulate Asmodeus), and the same is true of #4. The fact that he is fighting in the Blood War at all shows that his plans aren't perfect like the 3.5 fluff likes to say (and 2e he wasn't fighting the Blood War, just let the Pit Fiends have their war to keep them distracted so he could hold his power). And I never said he's not a mastermind, just not "I have planned everything ever" and completely undefeatable like people like saying.

Esser-Z
2010-09-24, 04:32 PM
Ah but if you read half the fluff Pun Pun can only be part of Asmodeus's plan.
This is true. Right up until the point where Double P does his thing and grants himself the ability to NOT be part of Asmodeus' plan. Alternatively, alters said plan to his own will.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-24, 04:53 PM
Why can't there be a discussion of this nature without Pun-Pun coming up? It gets old.

Esser-Z
2010-09-24, 04:54 PM
Because 'X is fluffed as perfect at stuff' naturally leads into the thing that actually IS perfect at stuff. :smalltongue:

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-24, 04:57 PM
Not really. Pun-Pun is a theoretical exercise, and lacks fluff altogether. I don't see how the two coincide, at all.

Esser-Z
2010-09-24, 04:59 PM
Asmodeus is said to be a perfect planner.

Pun Pun can grant himself the ability to be a perfect planner.

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-24, 05:02 PM
All I know is that my version of Asmodeus has a +89 modifier to Perform (Dance).

Xefas
2010-09-24, 05:28 PM
All I know is that my version of Asmodeus has a +89 modifier to Perform (Dance).

Would anyone be surprised if Asmodeus and David Bowie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0paUlhI2wts&p=804C1E4726EAD9B4&playnext=1&index=22) were the same person?

The facts:
Both are heavily musically inclined.
Both are sexy enough to make otherwise heterosexual men question their sexuality.
Both rule their own Outer Plane with an iron fist.
Both are often confused with deities.
Both are Goblin King.

Dralnu
2010-09-24, 05:36 PM
Asmodeus is said to be a perfect planner.

Pun Pun can grant himself the ability to be a perfect planner.

Except if Asmodeus is a perfect planner and comes before Pun Pun, he would have a plan to stop Pun Pun from ever happening, or at least ever allow Pun Pun to reach a point where he can stop him.

A perfect planner who comes ahead of other perfect planners is the winner.

Thalnawr
2010-09-24, 05:46 PM
Perhaps Asmodeus is PunPun Prime?

Lord_Gareth
2010-09-24, 05:48 PM
Question - why is it assumed that Asmodeus is dumb enough to want to run all of reality? He's got enough problems with one plane, and what I've read of the Lord of the Ninth indicates that he is not only highly philosophical, but extremely practical. He understands what the Upper Planes do not; that without a balance, not only will nothing ever get done, but the whole system falls apart.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-24, 05:56 PM
This (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH4.pdf) pdf is a good explanation of how I, personally, see Asmodeus.

I hope it's not copywritten, the pdf is accessible online for free, after all.

Coidzor
2010-09-24, 06:25 PM
Run away... Run away, and never return.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-24, 06:57 PM
People forget this since most things written about Asmodeus are all about how he's an invincible evil mastermind who never makes mistakes and always has the perfect Xanatos Roulette (a.k.a. a Villain Sue). These don't make sense in setting even, though, as if they were true Asmodeus would have taken over reality as overdeity long ago. You could explain them as biased propaganda from Asmodeus himself which would make them make sense, but also imply that he has succeeded in controlling the lion's share of information about himself that has managed to leak out (strangely in keeping with his established fluff).

There are several simple reasons Asmodeus hasn't taken over reality, ended the Blood War, etc. already, before getting into what his actual plans are. First off, he's stuck at the bottom of Nessus. The Asmodeus the Lords of the Nine and others see is an avatar or projection of the real thing. He himself can't leave Nessus, and his avatar can't leave the Hells. Thus, he has to work through others, who aren't nearly as powerful as he is in terms of intellect, cunning, magic, and so forth.

Also, any argument using his "official" stats is misguided at best and laughable at worst. Anyone who pits the PCs against the Lords of the Nine, Demon Princes, deities, or other powerful figures and actually uses the stats that were made by those WotC devs who couldn't build competent characters if their life depended on it and that could be steamrolled by an optimized party of 4 ~17th level characters but for the Hand of Death and Alter Reality SDAs deserves any mockery heaped upon them. If you give him stats commensurate with the original Planescape background most use (where he's a creator-type supreme being tied in power with Jazirian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazirian#Myths_and_legends); see also the document BeholderSlayer linked, though some of the non-creation non-Asmodeus stuff in there is not pure canon) then no, his reputation as a master planner and tyrant is not exaggerated.


Except Asmodeus isn't fighting all of the good guys. The archons help him in the Blood War, and the others spend as much time fighting the Tanar'ri as him (and he didn't need to do anything to cause either of these that's just in the nature of celestials).

Saying the archons "help him" makes it sound like they're allied. They're not; the archons simply fight against the demons because they're diametrically opposed, and given the choice between attacking a balor or a pit fiend they'd choose the balor every time, but they fight devils just as much. The fact that the Upper Planes are split in their attention between the Abyss and Baator doesn't mean that he doesn't have five planes to contend with.


And Asmodeus doesn't handle the Gray Waste at all, in fact the Yugoloths are manipulating both the Baatezu and Tanar'ri into fighting the Blood War and somehow Asmodeus doesn't catch on (although the original explanation was that the Lords of the Nine didn't take part in the Blood War at all).

The yugoloth definitely claim that they started the whole thing, but every side has its own opinions and propaganda. The facts remain, though, that Asmodeus is ultimately running the diabolical side of things (if in a very laissez faire manner operating mostly through occasional orders to the other Lords) and the devils do employ yugoloth mercenaries just like the demons.


The forces of the Abyss are never verified to be infinite, and flip-flop between "sages say they're infinite and spawn freely from the Abyss" and "they're limited by the number of mortal souls the Abyss gets" (last I knew all Tanar'ri but Succubi fell into the latter category and the Obyriths don't fight in the Blood War). The Tanar'ri are also busy fighting each other so only a finite fraction fights the Blood War.

The finite vs. infinite disparity being a mistake I'll grant you; the devils are merely extremely outnumbered, not a finite force fighting an infinite one. However, the sources claiming infinite demons also claim infinite devils because both planes are infinite, and the sources claiming finite demons also claim finite devils because finite fiends arise in each plane.


Of your list of 4 things that say he's an evil mastermind #1 is true, with #2 being something hinted at as possibly true, #3 as patently untrue (the Lords of the Upper Planes actively try to keep the Blood War running to manipulate Asmodeus), and the same is true of #4. The fact that he is fighting in the Blood War at all shows that his plans aren't perfect like the 3.5 fluff likes to say

The Upper Planes aren't manipulating Asmodeus in particular toward any goal (or attempting to), they're just encouraging all sides to continue it because fiends fighting other fiends means fewer for the aasimon to deal with.


(and 2e he wasn't fighting the Blood War, just let the Pit Fiends have their war to keep them distracted so he could hold his power). And I never said he's not a mastermind, just not "I have planned everything ever" and completely undefeatable like people like saying.

He isn't omniscient, true, but he's definitely a lot more powerful than you're giving him credit for. Aside from the fact that he's a primordial being of the multiverse (albeit weakened and bound to the Hells), the fact that he has never been seriously personally threatened by any force to come against him up to and including the other eight Lords of the Nine and his primordial opposite speak to a great deal of personal power.

137beth
2010-09-24, 07:14 PM
If you don't go into epic levels, there is no way you will face Asmodeus. Going by the stats in the book of vile darkness, he is CR 32, an appropriate challenge for a non-boss encounter with a party of 4 32nd level PCs. If he is the final battle of this campaign, then you would probably encounter him at a lower level--but still epic.

Coidzor
2010-09-24, 07:23 PM
The thing about fighting Asmodeus is... There's no reason to do so.

If you want to stop one of his plans for the time frame within which you'll be around for, you take out the underling responsible for it.

If he wants you dead, he can't come himself, he has to send a proxy.

If Asmodeus puts out a hit on you, well, odds are you're mucking far too much with the lower planes in the first place.

The scenario set up in the OP seems more of one of escape from hell or gaining a comfortable and reasonably secure place in the hierarchy than destroying the nine hells.

Eldan
2010-09-24, 08:27 PM
Oh, but some Archons do help Asmodeus. There are alliances in place: after all, better Asmodeus than the Tanar'ri. For the lawful factions, he's the lesser of two evils.

Da Beast
2010-09-24, 08:42 PM
Why can't the players take out Asmodeus? If you weren't intended to ever use him then why include information in the fluff and full stats in the crunch if the players can never go against him because he's too perfect? At high levels the players are supposed to be taking on impossible challenges like squaring off against the lords of hell. At level 20 or higher you're the greatest heroes the world has to offer and when the lords of hell need to be dealt with you're the go to guys to do it. Really, the idea that Asmodeus is just too damn good for the players to ever content with is pretty bad story telling.

Xefas
2010-09-24, 08:53 PM
Really, the idea that Asmodeus is just too damn good for the players to ever content with is pretty bad story telling.

I lol'd.

So, whenever there's a story featuring, say, a normal human - we'll use Casablanca as an example. So Casablanca is bad storytelling because the main character couldn't single-handedly defeat every single other entity in the entirety of the setting in a small skirmish-based manner?

I'd go the exact opposite direction. If a story does not have at least one insurmountable obstacle for the main characters that they cannot possibly overcome, then it is a bad story.

Not being able to kill the incarnation of evil is *not* bad storytelling.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-24, 09:37 PM
Oh, but some Archons do help Asmodeus. There are alliances in place: after all, better Asmodeus than the Tanar'ri. For the lawful factions, he's the lesser of two evils.

Granted. I just objected to the notion that all of the archons were allied with the devils in the Blood War; some of them have alliances, yes, but archons as a whole and devils as a whole are still enemies as much as archons and demons or eladrin and demons.


Why can't the players take out Asmodeus? If you weren't intended to ever use him then why include information in the fluff and full stats in the crunch if the players can never go against him because he's too perfect? At high levels the players are supposed to be taking on impossible challenges like squaring off against the lords of hell. At level 20 or higher you're the greatest heroes the world has to offer and when the lords of hell need to be dealt with you're the go to guys to do it. Really, the idea that Asmodeus is just too damn good for the players to ever content with is pretty bad story telling.

Here's the thing: as the being of primordial evil and one of the two beings of primordial law, Asmodeus should be more of a challenge than pretty much everything else out there. If there are epic-level threats in the campaign, Asmodeus should not be able to be defeated by 20th-level characters (and if there are CR 30 threats he should be CR 40+, and so forth), if only because he's a major target and if he could be taken out by weaker creatures, he would have been by now. You aren't the first group of 20th level upstarts deciding to take on the legions of the Hells, and if it were possible for a bunch of 20th level people to take him out, they would have. (If in your world you are the first epic-level threats for whatever reason, that makes it more likely he'd be near your level, but that cuts out a lot of higher-level and Planescape stuff anyway.)

Da Beast
2010-09-25, 06:17 PM
I lol'd.

So, whenever there's a story featuring, say, a normal human - we'll use Casablanca as an example. So Casablanca is bad storytelling because the main character couldn't single-handedly defeat every single other entity in the entirety of the setting in a small skirmish-based manner?

I'd go the exact opposite direction. If a story does not have at least one insurmountable obstacle for the main characters that they cannot possibly overcome, then it is a bad story.

Not being able to kill the incarnation of evil is *not* bad storytelling.

If the main character of Casablanca was a demigod superhero who could swim through lava and freeze time then yes, I'd say it's bad storytelling for him not to be able to take a bunch of nazi foot soldiers in a fight. I'm also not suggesting that Asmodeus should be a random monster defeated in a small skirmish, but rather that it should be possible at some point in their careers for epic fantasy heroes to take on the threats facing their world.


Here's the thing: as the being of primordial evil and one of the two beings of primordial law, Asmodeus should be more of a challenge than pretty much everything else out there. If there are epic-level threats in the campaign, Asmodeus should not be able to be defeated by 20th-level characters (and if there are CR 30 threats he should be CR 40+, and so forth), if only because he's a major target and if he could be taken out by weaker creatures, he would have been by now. You aren't the first group of 20th level upstarts deciding to take on the legions of the Hells, and if it were possible for a bunch of 20th level people to take him out, they would have. (If in your world you are the first epic-level threats for whatever reason, that makes it more likely he'd be near your level, but that cuts out a lot of higher-level and Planescape stuff anyway.)

Perhaps in his weakened condition Asmodeus can be killed. Maybe the CR 32 monster is all of his power he can use right now and killing him is as simple as killing the Archdevil before venturing down into the Serpent's Coils and finishing off the bleeding body of Ahriman (probably with some sort of artifact or ritual). Just because nobody's killed Asmodeus yet doesn't mean it's not possible, just that nobody's done it yet. Even if his reputation is overblown, he's still really damn good and hasn't been defeated yet. Defeating the lord of evil by teaming up with the forces of good and his forgotten, benevolent creator deity twin sister to lead the multiverse into a new age of peace and understanding sounds like a pretty cool ending for a campaign.

All of that aside, when someone asks for advice on fighting Asmodeus, "you lose" is hardly constructive. As for the OP's question, it would really help to know more about the builds and optimization levels of your group.

Eldan
2010-09-25, 06:59 PM
The problem is this: assume that every creature ever stated exists somewhere in DnD, on one of the many material planes, perhaps.
Asmodeus is CR 32. Looking at epic creatures in the SRD? The Hecantoncheires is CR 57. The Phaeton is 34. The Xixecal is 36. Prismatic Great Wyrms are 66. Primal Elementals are 35. And so on. There are plenty of things statted here which are stronger than Asmodeus. (Or at least, their given CR is higher, let's not go into that too much.)
Should all these things be so much stronger than Asmodeus? Over the many, many thousands of years hell has existed, why hasn't some ambitious wyrm killed him, or Demogorgon, or the General of Gehenna and made himself ruler of a plane?
Of course, not in every game these creatures exist. But I think that in any given game, Asmodeus should be absolute top tier. He's not undefeatable. But he should be about as strong as things can possibly get in a given setting. And not only in power, but also in amounts of ridiculous contingency planning.

Da Beast
2010-09-25, 07:24 PM
Who says he isn't? We know Asmodeus exists in the campaign world, we don't know about any of those other things. Saying you can't kill Asmodeus because he needs to be stronger than printed to keep up his position in the multiverse is presumptuous.

Or perhaps a sufficiently epic campaign has several multiverses each with their own prime evil and so on. Asmodeus is still kicking around at CR 32 because he's only a threat one multiverse and creatures like prismatic dragons and primal elementals exist outside anyone multiverse and have their own things to deal with there. All we really know is that PrismCat will at some point be going up against Asmodeus, probably a printed version of him, and could use some advice for that particular fight. Speculation on how no one can fight Asmodeus ever because he's too super special awesome isn't helpful and isn't true. In PrismCat's campaign world Asmodeus will be getting into a fight with the PCs and is thus obviously not so perfect he can't ever be caught with his pants down.

Eldan
2010-09-25, 07:47 PM
True. However, over time, several versions of Asmodeus have been printed, and they were all pretty different. And his greatest strength has always been planning. I don't know the DM in question, but if he plays him as the fluff indicates him, there probably shouldn't be a direct fight at all...

Anyway, my position above was this:
IF Asmodeus is a primal evil in the multiverse, and IF he holds his position at the top of hell, he should be one of the strongest creatures around, or either the good guys would have hired something stronger to kill him or someone would have taken over his position. So IF the world has prismatic dragons, which of course it doesn't have to, then Asmodeus should be stronger.
That doesn't mean you can't fight him. Just that he should be made stronger or weaker, depending on the world he is in and what the story requires.

Mikeavelli
2010-09-25, 09:09 PM
Asmodeus will rock you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8niNHOs_kU) like a hurricane. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxdmw4tJJ1Y&ob=av3e) Gods don't mess with him. Some people think his promotion to godhood in 4e is just kicking him upstairs (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickedUpstairs)--that he was already powerful enough, and his "promotion" was actually a demotion, partly thanks to the additional restrictions to what he can do with mortals as a deity.

Challenge Asmodeus to a Rock-off. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJTYp1tvd3Q) The demon code prevents him from declining.

Alternatively, a fiddle-challenge might pique his fancy.

Da Beast
2010-09-25, 09:09 PM
Perhaps we should just agree that without more information we can't really help the OP much beyond "do broken arcanist stuff."

Coidzor
2010-09-25, 09:23 PM
Eh, I still say it's better to get out of dodge than try to take out all of the Lords of the Nine.

Granted, we don't know what level they're playing at, but starting as gladiators for their amusement suggests... Not at the level where that's anywhere near a good idea.

Myth
2010-09-25, 10:42 PM
Which books hold all those aforementioned different versions of Asmo? His BOVD version is quite nukable by a nice cheezed up Wizard. Not at level 20 probably if we want to stay away from Wish abuse and CL250 stuff but still doable in early Epic.

A group of 4 optimized level 20 casters will definitely be able to take him on, but I have doubts about the hordes of other Devils on his home turf that will be around.

I can post the BOVD stats but I don't want to get attacked by a Fiendish Feral Dire Mod.

However, OP you should note that HP damage will be impossible below lvl 20 for things other then uberchargers - DR 20/7, 15 regen and 500 HP. He has very nasty at-will SLAs and even nastier Cleric spells prepared. He also has 45 SR so you'd have to rule out spells below level 8 and definitely use Assay SR or the Spellcasting Rod (or whatever it was called)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-26, 12:02 AM
Perhaps in his weakened condition Asmodeus can be killed. Maybe the CR 32 monster is all of his power he can use right now and killing him is as simple as killing the Archdevil before venturing down into the Serpent's Coils and finishing off the bleeding body of Ahriman (probably with some sort of artifact or ritual). Just because nobody's killed Asmodeus yet doesn't mean it's not possible, just that nobody's done it yet. Even if his reputation is overblown, he's still really damn good and hasn't been defeated yet. Defeating the lord of evil by teaming up with the forces of good and his forgotten, benevolent creator deity twin sister to lead the multiverse into a new age of peace and understanding sounds like a pretty cool ending for a campaign.

My perspective is basically what Eldan said: If you accept the given Planescape background, he should be the top-tier evil bar none, he should be impossible to defeat in his home plane without Jazirian's help, and so forth. If you introduce the idea that harming his avatar harms him somehow, that there are alternate universes with different prime evils, and so forth, then you're not talking about the Planescape Asmodeus and all the advice we're going to give is going to be useless because the DM is doing his own thing anyway.


Which books hold all those aforementioned different versions of Asmo? His BOVD version is quite nukable by a nice cheezed up Wizard. Not at level 20 probably if we want to stay away from Wish abuse and CL250 stuff but still doable in early Epic.

BoVD and FC2...but again, using WotC's stats for anything CR 20+ when the ELH is a joke and the devs can't optimize their way out of a paper bag is a recipe for failure.

Zhalath
2010-09-26, 12:23 AM
Challenge Asmodeus to a Rock-off. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJTYp1tvd3Q) The demon code prevents him from declining.

Alternatively, a fiddle-challenge might pique his fancy.

This is how you defeat archdevils.

Also, why would Asmodeus come himself to your arena fight? Doesn't he have more important things to do, like not get usurped by all of his underlings? I have a feeling he'd just send someone to congratulate the party for getting this far, and offer his apologies for not being able to make it. Follow up with weird. Sure, you'll probably survive, but it's the thought that counts. He's Affably Evil, it seems up his alley.

JBento
2010-09-26, 05:02 AM
I think most people are forgetting two things:

1) Asmodeus' stats are actually Asmodeus', merely his manifestation's. No-one has even SEEN Asmodeus in the last few millenia (except, presumably, the maximum HD'd Pit Fiends that spawn from each drop of his blood whenver his wounded).

2) Asmodeus might be the only creature in D&D that has LITERAL plot protection, in the form of the Pact Primeval, the exact, as-written contents of which no-one except Asmodeus remembers any more. Steal or destroy the plaque that contains the Pact (which is VERY well protected in Nessus), or break it in some other way and the entire fabric of the Universe... unravels. This includes giving free reins to Slaadi, Demons, and maybe the Far Realmsians. Obviously, this is not something any non-nihilistic creature would like to happen.

Of course, the Pact Primeval may or may not unravel at Asmodeus' death - Mephistopheles is certainly wagering it DOESN'T. :smallwink:

drakir_nosslin
2010-09-26, 05:02 AM
BoVD and FC2...but again, using WotC's stats for anything CR 20+ when the ELH is a joke and the devs can't optimize their way out of a paper bag is a recipe for failure.

True, and remember that the stats in FC2 are for the aspects of the arch-devils, so if the PC:s face these they never see the true faces of the rulers of hell.

As for why Asmodeus hasn't conquered the material realm yet and charged towards the upper planes depends on many things, remember that he was an angel originally and that he became what he is because of the Pact Primeval. According to the pact he is entitled to the ownership of Baator, the souls of those who do not follow the law and the power within those souls. However, should he break the pact, he will lose that right, and I think that attacking the upper planes directly would be considered breaking it.

No, Asmodeus continues to battle the demons, as he was created to do, while he plots the destruction of the upper planes by turning all mortals to worship him, or becoming atheists instead. At least that's what I would guess. The lawful celestials should according to all reason never attack Baator directly, because the devils fill an important role in the battle against chaos, but on the material plane there are no such restrictions.

EDIT: Swordsaged, but remember that there is a copy of the pact on Mechanus and one on Celestia as well, and removing them is a BAD idea...

Eldan
2010-09-26, 07:59 AM
Also, at least in Planescape fluff, the fiends can't leave the lower planes without being summoned.

LOTRfan
2010-09-26, 08:24 AM
Also, at least in Planescape fluff, the fiends can't leave the lower planes without being summoned.

Forgive me for my ignorance, but why (besides giving an explanation as to why demons haven't overrun the Material Plane) are fiends restrained to the lower planes in Planescape?

Eldan
2010-09-26, 08:28 AM
For pretty much exactly that reason. In the fluff, it's never really explained, as far as I know, but all outsiders have different conditions on where they can nor can not go. Eladrin can go everywhere, but have to be veiled. Aasimon can go to the upper and transitive planes, but pretty much no where else. And so on.

It's basically done for an explanation on why fiends actually let mortals summon them (it's described as degrading): they can't leave the lower planes otherwise.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-26, 02:58 PM
Isn't the pact primeval or whatever it is called a Castle Greyhawk-setting-only explanation anyway? I thought the Baator in the Forgotten Realms-campaign would be a different Baator than the one for Oerth, where the deities really don't do much physically by decree of the overgod Io, wheras on Toril, the gods there walk around playing pranks to commoners for their amusement, till Ao bitchslaps them.
And planescape would once again have a completely different explanation why things are like that as it is.

Eldan
2010-09-26, 03:01 PM
Technically, Planescape includes both the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. And the Pact Primeval is mentioned in the Fiendish Codices now, so it's part of Generic D&D.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-26, 03:14 PM
But Forgotten Realms is not "generic" D&D as Castle Greyhawk would be, I presume, just as Eberron isn't "generic". Both Forgotten Realms 3rd edition and Eberron have a different cosmology. And in the Forgotten Realms, the devils had to make a contract specifically with Kelemvor, the recent god of death for the continent Faerun, which does not extend to Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zhakara and whatever else there is, at least in my opinion.

Oracai
2010-09-26, 03:51 PM
If u wanna do something to make u smile
Get the Rules for Lucifer (CR 39) from Tome of Horrors

SoC175
2010-09-26, 05:47 PM
If you give him stats commensurate with the original Planescape background most use (where he's a creator-type supreme being tied in power with Jazirian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazirian#Myths_and_legends)
Note however that this is not the original PS fluff. This fluff is from the Guide to Hell supplement that did not carry the PS logo.

Even more, it's a fan-elevated version of the GtH fluff. Because GtH, despite all his "truly an titanic snake who fell from above and created the nine hells with his impact" glory, still doesn't make him an overdeity. GtH is quite clear that "in truth however Ahriman is a greater power*, just like Jazirian" (GtH, page 48).

*(In 2e deities were called powers, thus a demigod was demipower, a lesser deity was a lesser power, ....)

That's the most power he officially got in a D&D supplement, the power of a greater deity. The whole secretly being an overdeity thing is a fanmade extension from people who were not satisfied with their favored cosmic entity being not the most powerful being ever.

My perspective is basically what Eldan said: If you accept the given Planescape background, he should be the top-tier evil bar none, Except that he doesn't really face more competition that Orcus, Demorgorgon or Graz'zt face to hold to their current positions. All four of them have certainly to deal with more than the other 8 archdevils.

he should be impossible to defeat in his home plane without Jazirian's help, and so forth. Or another greater deity. GtH introduced the Jazirian/Ahriman story and it labled both as greater deities

If you make him into an overdeity you are not talking about the PS Asmodeus anymore.


True, and remember that the stats in FC2 are for the aspects of the arch-devils, so if the PC:s face these they never see the true faces of the rulers of hell. However they're already pretty high powered aspects, almost at full strenght. FC1 gave the aspects of the demonlords (although it failed to explicitly name them as aspects, one of the designers clarified that at the enworld message board some years ago and even speculated that the sentence proclaiming these stats to be aspect seemed to have been cut during final editing. Long story short the true stats were later printed from some of them in Dragon Magazine, culminating in CR36 Demorgorgon and this article stated that no other demon should be >= CR36 as this power level is reserved for the current prince of demons.). So if Asmo in FC2 is already CR32 his true form shouldn't be much higher than CR36 eother.

because of the Pact Primeval. Note that the PE was created in FC2 and then forced into the PS background that had gone before. And after they ended the unified D&D history with 4e, the PE wasn't mentioned again anywhere else but stays limited to just FC2

Isn't the pact primeval or whatever it is called a Castle Greyhawk-setting-only explanation anyway? See above. It's basically a "FC2-only" explanation and while it thus become part of 3.x core D&D, which kept the history of pre-3.x D&D history it's a foreign body.

Also if one actually goes by the FC2-PE-explanation, this would override the GtH-Jazirian/Ahriman explanation.


PS: Just by the way. Even earlier incarnations of D&D had Asmo being a lesser deity. Set, as a greater deity at this time who also resided in the nine hells, was said to be kept from enslaving all 9 archdevils as his servants only by them forming a united front against him. Greenwood wrote in one Dragon article that he chose Acheron as Bane's homeplane to avoid placing annother LE greater deity in Baator that could just curpstomp Asmodeus.

Basically in 1e all archfiends also were lesser deities, then 2e stripped them of their universal divinity but restored a few of them (e.g. Demogorgon and Orcus were lesser deities, Kostchie was a demideity)

The status of the LotN was left unclear during this time. Maybe they were deities, maybe they were just among the most powerful fiend until GtH finally declared Asmodeus a greater deity (which was the most power he ever officially received)

Myth
2010-09-26, 06:31 PM
Until i see Salient Divine Abilites in a 3.5 book, Asmo is nowhere near deity level. I'm sorry but having a glowing stick and some SLAs is nowhere near Supreme Initative, Life and Death and Alter Reality.

I don't know why people wank Asmodeus's chain so much. In a n earlier thread here someone asked how can his party of lvl 20s kill Boccob, and right there on the first page some genius was like "hurr get Asmodeus to do it durr" Newsflash guys, Asmodeus is a glorified Pit Fiend. At least in 3.5.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-26, 07:54 PM
Note however that this is not the original PS fluff. This fluff is from the Guide to Hell supplement that did not carry the PS logo.

Even more, it's a fan-elevated version of the GtH fluff. Because GtH, despite all his "truly an titanic snake who fell from above and created the nine hells with his impact" glory, still doesn't make him an overdeity. GtH is quite clear that "in truth however Ahriman is a greater power*, just like Jazirian" (GtH, page 48).

While it doesn't have the PS imprint, it is an official product printed after PS that takes all the PS fluff into account; since it talks about Jazirian and Ahriman creating the Wheel, the Rule of Threes, etc. and there was no "default setting" for 2e incorporating PS fluff that it would be referring to instead, there's no reason to exclude that from PS canon.


*(In 2e deities were called powers, thus a demigod was demipower, a lesser deity was a lesser power, ....)

That's the most power he officially got in a D&D supplement, the power of a greater deity. The whole secretly being an overdeity thing is a fanmade extension from people who were not satisfied with their favored cosmic entity being not the most powerful being ever.

I'm aware of what they're called in 2e, and I'm also aware that "greater power" is the highest designation, used for deific and non-deific powers alike. There's a gradient within greater power (hence why Legends & Lore introduced the idea of "intermediate" powers), so being a greater power doesn't mean he can't be more powerful than any or all of the others. Plus, "the Twin Serpents predate the rule of belief in the planes. They neither gain power from the adoration of mortals, nor lose it from lack of worship." That, combined with the many mentions of Asmodeus convincing the gods that he's a weak power or not one at all, combined with the fact that he helped create the entire multiverse, means that he doesn't have to be officially classed an Ao-esque overdeity to be the most powerful of them all.

Granted, that doesn't mean he then is by default the most powerful of all, just that the "he's only a greater deity" argument doesn't imply that he isn't.


However they're already pretty high powered aspects, almost at full strenght. FC1 gave the aspects of the demonlords (although it failed to explicitly name them as aspects, one of the designers clarified that at the enworld message board some years ago and even speculated that the sentence proclaiming these stats to be aspect seemed to have been cut during final editing. Long story short the true stats were later printed from some of them in Dragon Magazine, culminating in CR36 Demorgorgon and this article stated that no other demon should be >= CR36 as this power level is reserved for the current prince of demons.). So if Asmo in FC2 is already CR32 his true form shouldn't be much higher than CR36 eother.


Until i see Salient Divine Abilites in a 3.5 book, Asmo is nowhere near deity level. I'm sorry but having a glowing stick and some SLAs is nowhere near Supreme Initative, Life and Death and Alter Reality.

I don't know why people wank Asmodeus's chain so much. In a n earlier thread here someone asked how can his party of lvl 20s kill Boccob, and right there on the first page some genius was like "hurr get Asmodeus to do it durr" Newsflash guys, Asmodeus is a glorified Pit Fiend. At least in 3.5.

Once again: I do not grant any credibility to any arguments saying "But if you look at Asmodeus's [or Demogorgon's etc.] official 3.5 stats...."

The devs can't write good Power stats. The stats are far too weak to match their fluff, and they're far too weak to stand up to a well-optimized non-epic party. The only thing that prevents any D&DG deity from being curbstomped by a party of low- to mid-epic levels is the Alter Reality SDA. Supreme Initiative can be overcome by one of the half-dozen ways to take a turn out of order. Hand of Death's DC can be made with good reliability by 30th level or so; it's only DC 40+Cha for the highest-rank deity, and I'm running a 30th-level game where most everyone has a +35 to +38 Fort mod before buffs, and then only because I asked them to tone it down so there wouldn't be too much variance in the party. Life and Death can be stopped by SR, which--given that few if any deities have any sort of CL boosters--is quite effective even before bringing spell immunity into things. Alter Reality is just a miracle on steroids that's guaranteed to be granted exactly as desired, so in theory a mortal could get the same benefits with wish or miracle abuse.

I mean, really, let's take a look at Demogorgon's CR 33 version in Dragon 357. At first glance, he's pretty impressive, but if you take a closer look you'll see that your basic lich is immune to most of his tricks. He doesn't take rotting damage or energy drain from Big D's tentacles, he's immune to Big D's gaze and several SLAs because they're mind-affecting, and the ace-in-the-hole CL 25 blasphemy doesn't affect evil creatures. A vanilla lich cleric can buff up with a delay death spell and sit there laughing for a dozen or more rounds as Big D flails away ineffectually, unable to do any lasting harm.

Defensively speaking, Big D doesn't have many of the immunities you'd expect on a high-level critter--no mind-affecting and death immunity? For shame. A vanilla gray elf wizard 10/Red Wizard 10 with a 36 Int has better than a 50-50 chance to dominate Demogorgon (use Circle Magic to Heighten a dominate monster to 20th for a DC of 43, raising your base CL to 40 to basically auto-pass the SR check in conjunction with Arcane Mastery or other check-boosters), which can increase to an automatic success if you invest in DC-increasers or save debuffers, and that's not anywhere near the best build you can do before you start getting into real cheese territory. Heck, the same guy could pull the ol' delayed-blast-fireballs-in-a-time-stop trick to drop 6 maximized empowered delayed blast fireballs in a maximized empowered time stop, for a total of 1080 damage on average, easily beating Big D's 869 HP even after fire resistance.

That's one single ECL 20 character (and there are many possible ECL 20 characters that can do this) beating a monster that's supposed to be a boss fight for 4 ECL 29 characters together. I hope you can see why I give the official stats no weight whatsoever. If you want an appropriate threat, whose power level does not immediately break all verisimilitude by being low enough to let him be bumped off by any 20th-level caster with a grudge, you have to build it yourself, and that's where all this fluff backing comes in.


PS: Just by the way. Even earlier incarnations of D&D had Asmo being a lesser deity. Set, as a greater deity at this time who also resided in the nine hells, was said to be kept from enslaving all 9 archdevils as his servants only by them forming a united front against him. Greenwood wrote in one Dragon article that he chose Acheron as Bane's homeplane to avoid placing annother LE greater deity in Baator that could just curpstomp Asmodeus.

Basically in 1e all archfiends also were lesser deities, then 2e stripped them of their universal divinity but restored a few of them (e.g. Demogorgon and Orcus were lesser deities, Kostchie was a demideity)

The status of the LotN was left unclear during this time. Maybe they were deities, maybe they were just among the most powerful fiend until GtH finally declared Asmodeus a greater deity (which was the most power he ever officially received)

Oh, granted, the 1e versions were basically big bags of XP meant to be killed by high-level adventurers. You could fairly easily dispose of many of the big name characters; the almighty Demogorgon had a -8 AC and 200 HP and was right in the Monster Manual, for Pelor's sake! PS as a setting, however, changed those assumptions. The multiverse is no longer one big playground where Prime natives level up, kill things, take their stuff, repeat. Primes are Clueless, the multiverse runs on belief, the Powers have been around for a lot longer than you have and they'll be around long after you're gone. If they could have been taken down by the likes of you as easily as you think, they'd have been taken down already.


Of course, this whole argument is focused around Asmodeus, so it's easy to get the impression that PS fans love Asmodeus and Asmodeus only. Demogorgon may not be a primordial evil, but in my campaigns he's no more a low-epic pushover than Asmodeus is--and he's actually more feared by many of those in the know, because he's been cunning enough to protect himself against plots for many years while not having his true self sequestered at the bottom of Hell, and he can and will go after you if you piss him off instead of being relegated to acting through an avatar or proxy demons.

I, and many others I'm sure, put most of the planar rulers on the same footing as those two; Asmodeus just happens to be a special case because of his circumstances, so his planning powers and nigh-invulnerability are played up because he can't take much personal offensive action (and it's not in his nature anyway) and thus people take that as an indication that Asmodeus is being put on a pedestal rather than simply having his durability and cunning emphasized and personal offensive power downplayed.

SoC175
2010-09-27, 02:06 AM
combined with the fact that he helped create the entire multiverse, He didn't create the multiverse with Jazirian, they two simply took the planes and put them into the current wheel form.

Once again: I do not grant any credibility to any arguments saying "But if you look at Asmodeus's [or Demogorgon's etc.] official 3.5 stats...."

The devs can't write good Power stats. It's less the stats in their technical details, but their placement in the power-structure. Sure, the CR36 Demogorgon could have been done better with feat X instead of Y and power A instead of B, but of more importance is their intended power structure. The most powerfull demon is intended to cap at CR 36, that's how they define the powerlevel of the multiverse.


Life and Death can be stopped by SR, SDAs are not subject to SR, they also have no caster level either.

I mean, really, let's take a look at Demogorgon's CR 33 version in Dragon 357 33? The I misremembered, I thought it was 36.

At first glance, he's pretty impressive, but if you take a closer look you'll see that your basic lich is immune to most of his tricks. I don't mean his actual stat block, but the place in the hierarchy his stat block tried to place him.

The multiverse is no longer one big playground where Prime natives level up, kill things, take their stuff, repeat. Primes are Clueless, the multiverse runs on belief, the Powers have been around for a lot longer than you have and they'll be around long after you're gone. If they could have been taken down by the likes of you as easily as you think, they'd have been taken down already. Actually poor old Graz'zt still had such a statblock during 2e

Eldan
2010-09-27, 03:29 AM
The thing for me that makes Asmodeus a top tier, as are many others of the highest outsiders and exemplars, is a simple one, and explained from the fluff:
He rules the entire Nine Hells, one of only seventeen Outer Planes, and his legions are very busy on at least four or five others. Compare that to your average god, who has a comparably tiny realm.
Add to that that Asmodeus is, as this thread proves, a prime target for all manner of upstart adventurers, and you see why him being alive after a few thousand years is impressive.
Gods get killed all the time, Asmodeus doesn't.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 06:44 AM
Depends on the setting. Forgotten Realms-gods die all the time because they're being forced to fight a battle royal by the whims of Ao (and they're stupid anyway), Greyhawk-gods hold together to fight the insane Tharizdun, who could overthrow Io and reshape his part of the multiverse, in Eberron, the uber-deities became heaven, world and underdark, and there's perhaps no god at all.
In Oerth, Asmodeus might be a supersmart cunning diplomat who convinced the gods that he and his crownies are needed. On Toril, he can only plead to the newest death god of the continent Faerun to get the naughty souls in exchange for his service, as he must promise to wage a war against the demons who steal souls from the wall of the damned, and in another homebrew, Asmodeus is only a bigger pit fiend who is fighting a useless war against equally stupid demons waiting to be killed by adventurers.

It's up to the game moderator if Asmodeus can be killed, and if the players want their character to do that at all.

Eldan
2010-09-27, 06:46 AM
Well, sure. But if we discuss homebrew settings, the discussion becomes mostly moot anyway, because then it's entirely up to that DM and we can't help much.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 06:51 AM
We could look at his stats that make him killable, and use that for discussing this helllish gladiatorial campaign.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 06:56 AM
Well, sure. But if we discuss homebrew settings, the discussion becomes mostly moot anyway, because then it's entirely up to that DM and we can't help much.


We could look at his stats that make him killable, and use that for discussing this helllish gladiatorial campaign.

The OP makes the assumption that they are using stats for Asmodeus so that he can be fought and defeated; which is why saying his fluff makes him unkillable ignore the stats doesn't make sense.

Myth
2010-09-27, 07:04 AM
Well then it has been established that:

Both printed versions of Asmo are pretty much crap and are thus very defeatable.

OP's party is not so hot on the whole "magic" thing and will actually have a hard time with Asmo even with the laughable abilities listed. The only thing he can do is list his entire party and the resources available, and then maybe we can think of something. Although that would be severe metagaming if his party used whatever we think of, since we will be looking at Asmo's printed stats and planning accordingly.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 07:09 AM
And even if a DM wants you to fight a demon lord they (or at least I know I would) end up tweaking the stats.

Traditionally Asmodeus is good at enchantment style effects and mind control, be prepared for that. Also expect high level casting and/or sorcerer.

Eldan
2010-09-27, 07:15 AM
Yup. Standard precautions for any high-level caster, really: get True Seeing, Mind Blank, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement. That takes care of a lot of nasty stuff.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 07:32 AM
Also Assay Spell Resistance because unlike most full-casters Asmodeus has SR. And be careful he can fight in melee using his rod.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 07:55 AM
And be careful he can fight in melee using his rod.A potent weapon indeed. :smallwink:

It can be used as a great club (:smallamused:), it shoots lightning, acid and cold (:smallbiggrin:), and makes Asmodeus feel better after starting a reverie. :smallredface:

I just couldn't resist to that opportunity.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-27, 08:11 AM
I can't quite remember if the Asmodeus from BoVD is a lot better.
But if you're the only true fullcaster, I'd run. Run like hell.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 09:15 AM
Looking at BoVD and FCII Asmodeus and FCII Asmodeus is 5 CR lower, has DCs 1 lower, a -4 to hit, and +1 AC, more feats and more damage per hit. CR 27 Asmodeus also has much higher DCs on the (item enforced) save to attack him (which is not listed as Mind-Affecting) and might end up stronger than the CR 32 one because of that. Besides his Aura of Submission the most dangerous thing Asmodeus has it probably his ability to summon 1 pit fiend or any 2 other devils (including Archfiends) to his side 3/day. So it won't be you versus Asmodeus it will be you versus 7 of the 9.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-27, 09:21 AM
Looking at BoVD and FCII Asmodeus and FCII Asmodeus is 5 CR lower, has DCs 1 lower, a -4 to hit, and +1 AC, more feats and more damage per hit. CR 27 Asmodeus also has much higher DCs on the (item enforced) save to attack him (which is not listed as Mind-Affecting) and might end up stronger than the CR 32 one because of that. Besides his Aura of Submission the most dangerous thing Asmodeus has it probably his ability to summon 1 pit fiend or any 2 other devils (including Archfiends) to his side 3/day. So it won't be you versus Asmodeus it will be you versus 7 of the 9.

Well, it really depends on what level they fight him, but since it's them vs. 7 of the 9, then they are pretty much dead right from the get-go.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 09:25 AM
If summons take 1 full round action in the same way as Summon Monster spells:

(SLA's take 1 standard action unless otherwise stated, and the spell description otherwise states)

then it may be possible during that full round, to disrupt his attempts to summon allies.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-27, 09:31 AM
If summons take 1 full round action in the same way as Summon Monster spells:

(SLA's take 1 standard action unless otherwise stated, and the spell description otherwise states)

then it may be possible during that full round, to disrupt his attempts to summon allies.

Hmmm... well, in his description he also has a group of mortal hunters and other badies guarding him. Let them distract the party for a couple rounds, and now the party's chances are shot down.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 09:36 AM
True- using 1 round action summoning is slightly weaker than the

"All SLAs take a maximum of 1 standard action- even if the spell takes much longer"

interpretation- but it's not exactly weak.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 09:43 AM
He only has a +44 to concentration so a charger could make him lose the ability, if they made the DC 36 Will save (not marked as Mind-Affecting) to attack him thanks to his mighty rod. So even if it is a 1 Full Round ability it will be tough. Optimize your Will power before fighting one of the most powerful manipulators in all D&D. You don't even need to metagame to know that one.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-27, 09:45 AM
He only has a +44 to concentration so a charger could make him lose the ability, if they made the DC 36 Will save (not marked as Mind-Affecting) to attack him thanks to his mighty rod. So even if it is a 1 Full Round ability it will be tough. Optimize your Will power before fighting one of the most powerful manipulators in all D&D. You don't even need to metagame to know that one.

Does Asmodeus have diplomacy? :smallwink:

DeltaEmil
2010-09-27, 09:51 AM
He can't use it against player characters. :smalltongue:

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 09:55 AM
Does Asmodeus have diplomacy? :smallwink:

Only +49 so not too high.

White Blade
2010-09-27, 10:04 AM
I've always taken the "Asmodeus is the Lex Luthor of the Multiverse" methodology. Sure, there are bigger, badder, stronger beasties out there. There always are, there are foes the Gods themselves shy from fighting. But Asmodeus is smart. He doesn't fight you because that's dumb. He'd rather abandon Hell and let you rule it, than actually place himself in combat with someone of similar power-level. Because he'd lose. And Asmodeus, for all of it, doesn't want to die. If he fights you in a gladitorial arena, he can. Because, I mean, if Lex Luthor wants to brawl Superman he can... He'll just lose.

Of course, in a mostly for-fun game, where no major metaphysical arguments are needed, Asmodeus can be fought and killed. But from a story perspective, Asmodeus will never, ever leave his pit at the bottom of Nessus where his blood drips from his hideous, mangled body and his eyes burn with hellfire till he has the power to actually win The Fight (The real one, the one that finishes everything, where all the host of heaven, all the sons of hell, every clockwork being on mechanus, every slaad in limbo, and all the heroes of earth march out to determine just what form the final world takes). If he doesn't have that power, he won't leave, and you have to fight the whole of the host of the Nine to get to him (or be a god... But Asmodeus is useful to the gods of evil, as he corrupts righteous soul after righteous soul, so they keep him around and safe, and live at his place free of charge.).

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 10:11 AM
But from a story perspective, Asmodeus will never, ever leave his pit at the bottom of Nessus where his blood drips from his hideous, mangled body and his eyes burn with hellfire till he has the power to actually win The Fight (The real one, the one that finishes everything, where all the host of heaven, all the sons of hell, every clockwork being on mechanus, every slaad in limbo, and all the heroes of earth march out to determine just what form the final world takes).

Sounds about right. Whether the real form that's in the pit is miles long, or just a Large humanoid, can be up to the DM though. Manual of the Planes implied a miles-long serpent- but FC2 provided an explanation for the rift being called Serpent's Coil that didn't require an immense body- and says his true form is in the palace (Fortress Nessus) at the end of the rift.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 10:24 AM
I like the Dicefreaks portrayal of Asmodeus that I linked on the first or second page more than any portrayal in WotC material.

In that portrayal, Asmodeus is more than a god. Asmodeus is the avatar of the lawful evil overdeity that was cast down to Nessus after the separation of the trinity of law (Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil) where each facet became an overdeity. He is the Prime Evil. He does not require worshippers, as any action performed by an individual of any alignment which follows the lawful evil philosophy gives him power. He seeks to twist all beings to selfishness, as each act grants him more power. While in Hell, he has the powers of an overdeity at cosmic rank 21, but while outside he has divine rank 18.

He does not actively attempt to war against other deities yet, as he bides his time twisting more beings to selfish, evil acts. He is penultimately patient, and waits for his power to grow to a point to where he will be able to overcome all other deities and overdeities at the same time. He believes this is an inevitability.

He is The Devil who lives in Hell (note the capitalizations).

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 10:35 AM
But placing Asmodeus as the Prime Evil demeans the entire Blood War and the whole Law/Chaos axis of Evil. If the Prime Evil is LE than evil is skewed towards it and it undermines and demeans both the philosophy behind Planescape and the purpose of Abyssal Lords, the obyriths (primal evil creatures with no creators but the lovecraftian spawn of the Abyss), and the existence of every evil aligned plane other than Baator.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-27, 10:37 AM
It's less the stats in their technical details, but their placement in the power-structure. Sure, the CR36 Demogorgon could have been done better with feat X instead of Y and power A instead of B, but of more importance is their intended power structure. The most powerfull demon is intended to cap at CR 36, that's how they define the powerlevel of the multiverse.

That's all fine and dandy, but regardless of what's intended, their given stats don't work. Yes, theoretically Big D is more powerful than Grazzt is more powerful than Juiblex and so on...but if you look at their actual capabilities the order might be reversed, and in any case a nonepic party can still steamroll them all.

Whether you think Asmo should be more powerful than Big D or the reverse, all I'm saying here is that you shouldn't point to official stats to back up your position.


SDAs are not subject to SR, they also have no caster level either.

My bad. So I guess you need spell immunity vs. destruction, then.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 10:43 AM
But placing Asmodeus as the Prime Evil demeans the entire Blood War and the whole Law/Chaos axis of Evil. If the Prime Evil is LE than evil is skewed towards it and it undermines and demeans both the philosophy behind Planescape and the purpose of Abyssal Lords, the obyriths (primal evil creatures with no creators but the lovecraftian spawn of the Abyss), and the existence of every evil aligned plane other than Baator.

I would say it demeans it a little, but I don't see how this is necessarily a bad thing. Technically, lawful evil is well known to be "the mostest evil." The D&D multiverse is not a very chaotic place in general, there is order imposed even in the most chaotic of places. Even the Abyss and chaotic-aligned planes follow rules: the rule of chaos. As such, they abide by order and law.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 10:43 AM
My bad. So I guess you need spell immunity vs. destruction, then.

The spell Spell Immunity only functions against effects that allow SR, although other forms of immunity to destruction might work (I am not familiar with SDAs).


I would say it demeans it a little, but I don't see how this is necessarily a bad thing. Technically, lawful evil is well known to be "the mostest evil." The D&D multiverse is not a very chaotic place in general, there is order imposed even in the most chaotic of places. Even the Abyss and chaotic-aligned planes follow rules: the rule of chaos. As such, they abide by order and law.

It also demeans all the other evil gods and doesn't fit in with D&D fluff in general. It is a great concept, and works very well for a "Battle against Hell" campaign where you are fighting the Prime Evil and doomed to fail because it is impossible (or succeed because you are the protagonist), but it does require a reworking of the fluff for the game and cannot be taken as assumed.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 10:53 AM
It also demeans all the other evil gods and doesn't fit in with D&D fluff in general. It is a great concept, and works very well for a "Battle against Hell" campaign where you are fighting the Prime Evil and doomed to fail because it is impossible (or succeed because you are the protagonist), but it does require a reworking of the fluff for the game and cannot be taken as assumed.

I would argue that it does fit, but this is highly into the realm of opinion and as such don't expect to convince anybody. Even the BoVD mentions that some believe Asmodeus is the Prime Evil, and as such one would expect him to be more powerful than the writeup in that book (BoVD CR 32 vs. TGoH9 CR 81).

The other evil gods are merely gods, not nearly as powerful as the Prime Evil. While they toil to further their goals, they grant more and more power to the Prime Evil as they do so. The only way to "defeat" the Prime Evil would be to eradicate selfish acts of decadence from the multiverse entirely. To me, at least, this makes logical sense and fits in well with the fluff.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 10:58 AM
There is a difference between "some believe this to be the case" and "this is the case".

Especially given that FC2 gives a different backstory for Asmodeus, which very much downplays his power- he was a servant of the gods when he fell, not an overdeity.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 11:02 AM
There is a difference between "some believe this to be the case" and "this is the case".

Especially given that FC2 gives a different backstory for Asmodeus, which very much downplays his power- he was a servant of the gods when he fell, not an overdeity.

I am aware, I just don't like that backstory (just as you don't like mine ;)). I didn't say it was absolutely the case, just that it was mentioned as a possibility. It's really for each DM or group to determine within their own minds.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 11:41 AM
As a more on-topic comment:

Take Irresistable Spell and just toss Save-or-Die's. For a measly +4 level adjustment you can cast a spell that entitles a saving throw such that it disallows a saving throw. Either DMM the metamagic or buy some metamagic reduction feats.

With a little initiative optimization you could probably just wipe out anything from Hell in the first round.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 11:49 AM
I am aware, I just don't like that backstory (just as you don't like mine ;)).

Even with sources that can be taken as suggesting Jarizian and Asmodeus fought, and that's how Asmodeus fell, that doesn't guarantee that he was an overdeity before falling.

In Serpent Kingdoms, Jazirian is described as a fragment of the deity The World Serpent, on page 27.

And on page 55, Jazirian is said to have been killed by Merrshaulk. The deity Qotal, followed by couatls, is revered as Jazirian reborn.

So, if Jazirian is merely a fragment of an older deity (itself not an overdeity)- Asmodeus could be another fragment, rather than "Prime Evil".

The World Serpent is also called Amphisbaena in other sources- a name for a two headed snake. Asmodeus and Jazirian could have been the heads when the World Serpent fractured.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 11:59 AM
Even with sources that can be taken as suggesting Jarizian and Asmodeus fought, and that's how Asmodeus fell, that doesn't guarantee that he was an overdeity before falling.

In Serpent Kingdoms, Jazirian is described as a fragment of the deity The World Serpent, on page 27.

And on page 55, Jazirian is said to have been killed by Merrshaulk. The deity Qotal, followed by couatls, is revered as Jazirian reborn.

So, if Jazirian is merely a fragment of an older deity (itself not an overdeity)- Asmodeus could be another fragment, rather than "Prime Evil".

The World Serpent is also called Amphisbaena in other sources- a name for a two headed snake. Asmodeus and Jazirian could have been the heads when the World Serpent fractured.

I believe we are technically arguing from the standpoint of two entirely different "multiverses," and as such will never reach a point where we can say "X is the truth based on resources available."

I am really just pointing to the one I like better.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 12:11 PM
Thing is, Greyhawk seems to have replaced Twin Serpents with Pact Primeval (what with St Cuthbert and the like appearing in the Pact Primeval story) and Faerun, while possibly keeping the Twin Serpents story, has downgraded Jazirian to minor deity.

So, what sphere has Asmodeus as "the primal force of all evil"?

Maybe Mystara?

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 12:13 PM
This (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH4.pdf) pdf is a good explanation of how I, personally, see Asmodeus.

I hope it's not copywritten, the pdf is accessible online for free, after all.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sphere," but this pdf is what I have been talking about.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 12:15 PM
Mystara is way back in basic where Asmodeus didn't even have deity level powers at all. The World Serpent is 2e and while you could update Mystara's fluff for that one, it'd be just as valid to up it to 3.5's Pact Primeval.

Edit: Sphere could reference Crystal Sphere which hold various campaign settings, but that would still leave Asmodeus demoted in the Planar scale of things.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 12:16 PM
What universe? (each of the universes in the multiverse are called "spheres" in Planescape).

Dicefreaks plays a lot with the original info.

The World Serpent is referenced in 3e- but the "Twin Serpents of Law" concept is 2e or earlier.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 12:18 PM
What universe? (each of the universes in the multiverse are called "spheres" in Planescape).

Dicefreaks plays a lot with the original info.

The World Serpent is referenced in 3e- but the "Twin Serpents of Law" concept is 2e or earlier.

I'm a little confused, are you asking me to prove something?

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 12:21 PM
I'm asking where the idea that the "Twin Serpents of Law" are overdeities came from- and if it's possible that they were using the term in a different sense that 3.5 was using it.

The Greyhawk wiki:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Asmodeus

does mention the Twin Serpents myth- but doesn't call them overdeities- and mentioned that even in 2nd ed there were alternate takes on it.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 12:37 PM
I'm asking where the idea that the "Twin Serpents of Law" are overdeities came from- and if it's possible that they were using the term in a different sense that 3.5 was using it.

The pdf I linked has a little bit of that info in the Asmodeus section, but never *technically* uses the word "overdeity" necessarily. It describes Asmodeus as the personification of Tyranny and Oppression. It also states:

Asmodeus is the Prime Evil, the intellectual center of
all that is unholy.
and

Asmodeus, The Devil, is Hell.

Asmodeus was a part of the Circle of Three, the three facets of law which sought to implement order throughout the cosmos.

I more ascribed the word "overdeity" through interpretation of the narrative. Technically, it describes Asmodeus as the avatar of the Prime Evil. It also describes him as having Cosmic Rank 21 while in Hell, which qualifies him for overdeity status (having Cosmic Rank).

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-27, 12:59 PM
The spell Spell Immunity only functions against effects that allow SR, although other forms of immunity to destruction might work (I am not familiar with SDAs).

I was actually talking about the monster ability spell immunity, since there are still some 3.5 monsters that use the old 3.0 phrasing that can protect against SR: No spells. But you're right, there are several other abilities that just offer immunities regardless of SR.


It also demeans all the other evil gods and doesn't fit in with D&D fluff in general. It is a great concept, and works very well for a "Battle against Hell" campaign where you are fighting the Prime Evil and doomed to fail because it is impossible (or succeed because you are the protagonist), but it does require a reworking of the fluff for the game and cannot be taken as assumed.

Note that you said other gods--Asmodeus, Demogorgon, et al. are not gods, just supremely powerful beings, so that's not really a concern. Also, as mentioned, Law permeates the multiverse; the rule of threes dictates how many things work, the exemplars of chaos come in discrete, predictable forms, and so forth, so it's not that surprising that Law would come out ahead of Chaos.


Re: the "overdeities"/Twin Serpent debate. No source out-and-out says Asmodeus/Ahriman is an overdeity. I don't think even Ao was described as "an overdeity" as opposed to "the unbelievably powerful greater deity in charge of Toril" until 3e where the heropower/demipower/lesser power/greater power scale changed to the quasideity/demigod/lesser deity/intermediate deity/greater deity scale, though my FR lore isn't all that strong. You don't have to be officially termed an overdeity to be a Power so strong as to be invulnerable to mortals and so ancient as to have put the Wheel in its place.

As for the Twin Serpents thing, the Greyhawk and FR mythoi don't use it. FR has a different cosmology now and an official overdeity, so pre-3e material regarding the cosmology doesn't really hold. As for Greyhawk, it has the Pact Primeval and World Serpent instead of the Twin Serpents, which is basically incompatible with the PS model...and after FC2. the Greyhawk story is now the default story, again making 3e material override the 2e material. The cross-setting differences in cosmology are where this whole confusion is coming from.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 03:48 PM
The pdf mentioned, while describing "cosmic rank" doesn't actually have stats for Asmodeus.

This one does though:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 04:03 PM
The pdf mentioned, while describing "cosmic rank" doesn't actually have stats for Asmodeus.

This one does though:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf

That ought to be the exact same pdf I linked. I have it downloaded as well and can find the stats for Asmodeus in it. Not sure why they aren't there for you.

Edit: hmmm, there is a slight difference in URL. Let me see why/how they are different.

Edit 2: Ah, I see why...I have the one you linked downloaded. I googled for the same thing and linked the first closely-named pdf I found, which apparently was not the one you linked (I downloaded the one you linked). Apparently my google-fu wasn't stellar earlier today.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 04:06 PM
When I clicked on yours, all I got was part 4 of the 9 PDFs.

That said- for those who want to go through the whole Gates Of Hell thing:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH1.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH2.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH3.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH4.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH5.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH6.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH7.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH8.pdf
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf

It's pretty interesting- though everything seems to be massively souped-up.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 04:14 PM
Yep, apparently google failed me today and I didn't do my homework to double check it.

Yeah, everything is pretty cranked up, but I actually like it that way. Dispater is a pretty nasty individual in that one.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 04:22 PM
Yup: caster and manifester levels of 68, and a massive array of special powers. Pretty deadly considering he's supposedly only CR 63.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 04:33 PM
Yup: caster and manifester levels of 68, and a massive array of special powers. Pretty deadly considering he's supposedly only CR 63.

Not to mention the insane strength of the Iron Tower, requiring high opposed strength rolls to even just act, and the 76th CL disjunction that will be hitting you every 4th round inside.

To take on these guys it's pretty much assumed you're optimizing CL and various abilities. One day I want to get my group to a point where they can push the envelope on these guys, but I might have to get them through a lot of rocket tag first. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 04:44 PM
Dicefreaks has an interesting take on deities and epic levels- from what I've seen in those PDFs.

Might be worth drawing from those ideas if I ever run an epic game.

Besides The Gates of Hell- are there any other really notable compilations of theirs? Maybe something for The Abyss, or even the Upper Planes? Reading it has definitely drawn my interest.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 04:46 PM
Dicefreaks has an interesting take on deities and epic levels- from what I've seen in those PDFs.

Might be worth drawing from those ideas if I ever run an epic game.

Besides The Gates of Hell- are there any other really notable compilations of theirs? Maybe something for The Abyss, or even the Upper Planes? Reading it has definitely drawn my interest.

To be honest, I've been looking around myself for those exact sources. I haven't had any luck, yet, though. I will PM them to you if I can find any, please do the same if you find one. :)

drakir_nosslin
2010-09-27, 04:56 PM
There's the Dicefreaks Publishing (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=585b767585ab553c71decc7fb65898f3) page. It contains most of what they've done so far, including their deity rules, remakes of old templates and some other stuff.

EDIT:
But placing Asmodeus as the Prime Evil demeans the entire Blood War and the whole Law/Chaos axis of Evil. If the Prime Evil is LE than evil is skewed towards it and it undermines and demeans both the philosophy behind Planescape and the purpose of Abyssal Lords, the obyriths (primal evil creatures with no creators but the lovecraftian spawn of the Abyss), and the existence of every evil aligned plane other than Baator.

He isn't placed as the prime Evil, he's placed as the prime of Organized Evil, i.e Lawful Evil. There's another one in the Abyss that's chief for the UnOrganized Evil (or OUE for short :smalltongue:), though I'm not sure who they've placed in that position. Demorgon perhaps? My knowledge of the Abyss power structure is sketchy at best

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 05:01 PM
Yup- I've had a look and apparently another book-style PDF in the same fashion as Gates of Hell is being put together: Hordes of the Abyss.

So far, only the stats for Orcus are complete- though there appear to be stats for some of the others not as PDFs- work in progress?

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 05:01 PM
Thanks Drakir, awesome. Much gratitude.

drakir_nosslin
2010-09-27, 05:06 PM
Np :smallbiggrin:

One thing you should know is that the 'Hordes of the Abyss' has been under production for a very long time now. I think I found it first around 2007 or 2008, so it might take some time for them to finish it, if they ever do. Until then, there's a lot of other inspiring stuff in there.

Zaydos
2010-09-27, 05:10 PM
He isn't placed as the prime Evil, he's placed as the prime of Organized Evil, i.e Lawful Evil. There's another one in the Abyss that's chief for the UnOrganized Evil (or OUE for short :smalltongue:), though I'm not sure who they've placed in that position. Demorgon perhaps? My knowledge of the Abyss power structure is sketchy at best

Okay; people kept saying he is the Prime Evil and source of all evil and therefore couldn't be killed/defeated. The idea of multiple Prime Evils creating a balance between them is much more workable in normal D&D fluff.

drakir_nosslin
2010-09-27, 05:18 PM
Okay; people kept saying he is the Prime Evil and source of all evil and therefore couldn't be killed/defeated. The idea of multiple Prime Evils creating a balance between them is much more workable in normal D&D fluff.

Well, according to the DF mythology, the true visage of Asmodeus probably can't be killed. He is lawful evil, as long as any hint of tyranny, oppression or anything like it exists in the multiverse, so will the Prime Organized Evil exist. However, his avatar can be killed, but he have several, of which Asmodeus is only one. Lucifer is another, and I think that he has another seven in stasis, ready to be used whenever needed. These are all as powerful as Asmodeus (i.e overdeites if we're in hell), but have different powers, feats etc. So, while the being that people believe is the ruler of hell can be destroyed, the origin of that avatar, the great evil of law can't be killed.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 05:28 PM
It mentions "a score of avatars called Lucifer" but then speaks of a second avatar called Asmodeus which destroyed (or exiled) Lucifer.

So- was Lucifer not one being but 20, all (or maybe, all but 1?) of which were destroyed?

Coidzor
2010-09-27, 05:30 PM
What is meaningfully imparted by the idea of Overdeity? Because it mostly just calls to mind something like Lord Ao that's a creator and can alter everything in existence on a whim.

hamishspence
2010-09-27, 05:34 PM
As written, the Divine (cosmic?) Rank 21 (in Baator) version of Asmodeus, is less an overdeity, and more a slightly more powerful than normal greater deity.

An overdeity like Ao isn't Divine Rank 21- it's divine rank Infinity, so to speak.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 05:34 PM
I see what you mean by a little incomplete, Drak, the only complete pdf's I've found so far are the ones on the gates of hell. There is some useful stuff, but I guess it's not exactly like these guys are paid to stat out stuff.

drakir_nosslin
2010-09-27, 05:38 PM
It mentions "a score of avatars called Lucifer" but then speaks of a second avatar called Asmodeus which destroyed (or exiled) Lucifer.

So- was Lucifer not one being but 20, all (or maybe, all but 1?) of which were destroyed?

Lucifer was never destroyed in the DF setting, if I recall correctly, instead it was all a bluff to convince the rest of the multiverse that the ruler of hell could be destroyed/overthrown. It was really a mock fight/plotting between two avatars of the Prime Organized Evil and it ended with it having secured its position once again.


What is meaningfully imparted by the idea of Overdeity? Because it mostly just calls to mind something like Lord Ao that's a creator and can alter everything in existence on a whim.

I think that in DF overdeity is simply a step above a greater deity or something like that. It's a being of enormous cosmic power, able to destroy other gods through sheer force. Ao is an overdeity in the FR section of the multiverse, there are others like him in other parts of the verse.

EDIT: Take a look here: Deity rules. (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19)

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-27, 05:43 PM
On the numerous avatars, Lucifer is the first avatar, and Asmodeus is the second. Lucifer has been AWOL for a long time, but Asmodeus can maintain 20 avatars throughout all of hell at all times. If one of his avatars leaves Hell, the other avatars disappear until he reenters Hell. For this reason, Asmodeus plots from Hell and never leaves.

I suppose you theoretically could kill Asmodeus if you were able to catch him in a summoning circle, which is outlined in the end of his section. This is assuming, of course, the circle wasn't already in hell. A fat lot of good that would do you, probably, as Lawful Evil would probably spawn another avatar.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 03:45 AM
That said, if one likes both the Pact Primeval story and the Dicefreaks story, one could have them both be true (for a given value of "true")- the angel who led various other angels into corruption during the war against the demons, persuading the gods to sign the Pact Primeval, and then being cast out of Celestia, was actually an avatar of The Serpent of LE- Lucifer, or Asmodeus.

If Lucifer, after "Asmodeus" overthrew him, he erased the name of Lucifer from history and put his own name to the Pact Primeval legend.

Mongoose Publishing & Necromancer Games make Lucifer rather more antagonistic to Asmodeus- maybe, despite both being avatars or aspects of the same being, they grew away from their parent being a bit. Lucifer in the Tome of Horrors books and, I think, the Mongoose Publishing Immortals Handbook, makes his home on a new demiplane- the Plane of Infernus.

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 04:24 AM
Or maybe Evil is inherently self-destructive.

Or maybe it is actually able to increase its power or become more perfectly perfect in its perfection of LE by striving against itself like an athlete striving against the limitations of its body or a philosophy being tested.

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 08:15 AM
Only +49 so not too high.

High enough to make the party his bestest friends.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-28, 08:18 AM
If he were a player characters, and these gladiators were non-player characters, yes. :smalltongue:

But nobody will fortunately use the diplomacy rules as written. :smallsmile:

Lhurgyof
2010-09-28, 08:22 AM
If he were a player characters, and these gladiators were non-player characters, yes. :smalltongue:

But nobody will fortunately use the diplomacy rules as written. :smallsmile:

Either that or he can use a bluff check against the party's sense motive +20 to convince them of something that could never be true. :smalltongue:

Myth
2010-09-28, 08:22 AM
High enough to make the party his bestest friends.

Diplomacy does not work on player characters.

Coidzor
2010-09-28, 09:23 AM
Diplomacy does not work on player characters.

12 Gods bless contractual immunity.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-28, 10:20 AM
Mongoose Publishing & Necromancer Games make Lucifer rather more antagonistic to Asmodeus- maybe, despite both being avatars or aspects of the same being, they grew away from their parent being a bit. Lucifer in the Tome of Horrors books and, I think, the Mongoose Publishing Immortals Handbook, makes his home on a new demiplane- the Plane of Infernus.

Following the Dicefreaks story (where "Asmodeus" overthrew "Lucifer" to allay other Powers' fears that he couldn't be beaten), I'd say Lucifer moving out is all part of The PlanTM. Lucifer is obviously upset with the way Hell is being run if he's moving out, right? An enterprising aasimon might be able to redeem the dissatisfied Lucifer and gain a powerful ally for Good, and Lucifer would eventually repent of his wrongdoings and become part of the angelic armies...at which point he'd reveal that you've essentially let Asmodeus 2.0 into the Upper Planes willingly and then all Hell breaks loose.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 10:28 AM
...at which point he'd reveal that you've essentially let Asmodeus 2.0 into the Upper Planes willingly and then all Hell breaks loose.

Shouldn't that be "prototype version of Asmodeus"? :smallamused:

Still- it's an interesting possibility.

As written, if an avatar of Asmodeus leaves the Nine Hells, all the avatars of him in the Nine Hells disappear- which is why he never leaves.

Maybe Lucifer became "a being in his own right" thus allowing him to leave the Nine Hells without causing Asmodeus to disappear.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-28, 10:33 AM
Shouldn't that be "prototype version of Asmodeus"? :smallamused:

Still- it's an interesting possibility.

As written, if an avatar of Asmodeus leaves the Nine Hells, all the avatars of him in the Nine Hells disappear- which is why he never leaves.

Maybe Lucifer became "a being in his own right" thus allowing him to leave the Nine Hells without causing Asmodeus to disappear.

Well, Lucifer and Asmodeus are both Avatars of Prime Lawful Evil, but it does not necessarily follow that Lucifer is an avatar of Asmodeus, or vice versa. There is still a degree of separation, so Lucifer ought to be able to leave Hell without affecting Asmodeus in any way.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 10:40 AM
Didn't it say Lucifer and Asmodeus were 2 of the 20 possible avatars- thus- if either leave, the other disappears?

Unless they were "avatars of the prime evil" and thus- only avatars of Asmodeus are subject to the disappearing problem.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-28, 10:47 AM
Didn't it say Lucifer and Asmodeus were 2 of the 20 possible avatars- thus- if either leave, the other disappears?

Unless they were "avatars of the prime evil" and thus- only avatars of Asmodeus are subject to the disappearing problem.

I'd have to look at it again, and don't have time atm. Will do in a bit.

Tiki Snakes
2010-09-28, 10:50 AM
That said, if one likes both the Pact Primeval story and the Dicefreaks story, one could have them both be true (for a given value of "true")- the angel who led various other angels into corruption during the war against the demons, persuading the gods to sign the Pact Primeval, and then being cast out of Celestia, was actually an avatar of The Serpent of LE- Lucifer, or Asmodeus.


In my own cosmology, I have decided that the nascent gods were greeted by a learned figure, who taught them how to make more 'Angels' like himself to serve them. He became one of the leaders of these Angels, of course. Perhaps this being, who would later go on to fight the Demons of the Elemental Chaos and later betray his 'lord', the god whose name has been whiped from history. The Gods would of course throw this 'Angel' from heaven, but just because they believe that is what he is doesn't make it the case. :smallbiggrin:

Admittedly, I use a different edition and elements of that editions fluff. But it fits nicely, in various ways. Specifically, the Obyriths are claimed to have basically come from outside the universe/existing cosmology, escaping a dying alternate-reality. That'd make them significantly older than most things that existed at the time, including the primordials and the Young Gods themselves. Also, there are suggestions that not only is Pazuzu an Obyrith but that he was instrumental in Asmodeus's plan to overthrow the (at the time) God of Baator.

And at the end of the day, I like the implied visual. There was nothing, and the Gods form into the silvery nothingness, blinking and newborn.
"Good Morning, Gentlemen..."

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-28, 10:52 AM
Shouldn't that be "prototype version of Asmodeus"? :smallamused:

Well, in the ToH version of things, Lucifer wasn't overthrown by Asmodeus but rather Lucifer left to do his own thing, leaving Asmodeus as the main bad guy, hence 2.0.


Still- it's an interesting possibility.

As written, if an avatar of Asmodeus leaves the Nine Hells, all the avatars of him in the Nine Hells disappear- which is why he never leaves.

Maybe Lucifer became "a being in his own right" thus allowing him to leave the Nine Hells without causing Asmodeus to disappear.

The latter would make most sense; maybe they "supercharge" the Asmodeus and Lucifer avatars somehow so he can only have a quarter the normal number active at once but none disappear if the another leaves the Hells. Would be an interesting idea, at least.

hamishspence
2010-09-28, 10:53 AM
Admittedly, I use a different edition and elements of that editions fluff. But it fits nicely, in various ways. Specifically, the Obyriths are claimed to have basically come from outside the universe/existing cosmology, escaping a dying alternate-reality. That'd make them significantly older than most things that existed at the time, including the primordials and the Young Gods themselves. Also, there are suggestions that not only is Pazuzu an Obyrith but that he was instrumental in Asmodeus's plan to overthrow the (at the time) God of Baator.

That is one of my favorite bits of 4E Demonomicon.

After a quick check of book 9 of Gates of Hell:

Avatar:
Asmodeus is the avatar of The Overlord of Hell (Lawful Evil overdeity). As the avatar of an overgod, Asmodeus possesses the power of a true deity rather than those of a conventional avatar. Asmodeus also keeps his malefircarim special abilities, and was given several unique salient abilities to help facilitate his rule over Perdition.
The overlord can generate at least 20 avatars at one time and generally has at least nine (including the "dominant" avatar) available. However, due to the nature of his imprisonment, the Overlord may only maintain one avatar outside of Hell at any one time; if the Overlord sends an avatar beyond Hell, he can neither generate nor maintain other avatars (already created avatars go into "stasis" until the avatar returns to Hell).
It takes 90 days for the Overlord to create a new avatar, unless it is destroyed beyond Hell. In such cases the Overlord loses all other avatars save one, and it will take nine months for him to create a new avatar. It is unknown what would happen if the Overlord lost access to all its avatars.
The Overlord may select different appearances, ability scores, classes, feats salient divine abilities, skills, and so on when creating a new avatar, as was the case with Lucifer and Asmodeus.

So- unless Lucifer ceased to be an Avatar of the Overlord- he could not leave hell without putting Asmodeus into stasis.

Da'Shain
2010-09-28, 11:54 AM
The latter would make most sense; maybe they "supercharge" the Asmodeus and Lucifer avatars somehow so he can only have a quarter the normal number active at once but none disappear if the another leaves the Hells. Would be an interesting idea, at least.Or, all the other Avatars of LE do disappear. "Asmodeus" suddenly winks off the gameboard, possibly even disappearing from the sight of the few powers that could sense him to begin with. Considering his reputation, his sudden disappearance after "Lucifer" leaves Hell would be terrifying in its possible implications, only one of which is that Asmodeus and Lucifer are the same person. The rest of the multiverse would be left to consider whether Asmodeus was finally making his ultimate play, gathering his armies in secret and coming for each of the gods in the growing night ... which, of course, "he" is.

Of course, it hinges on the rest of the powers not realizing the truth behind Lucifer and Asmodeus' kinship, but with the history that's apparently been set up, that seems likely (especially with a Bluff mod like that).

PrismCat21
2010-09-28, 04:43 PM
Thank you to everyone that responded. To clarify, we were all brought down to the abyss against our will and are forced to fight match after match in a gladitorial setting, purely for the amusement of the Nine Lords. No other reason. Eventually, as we lvl up, we'll be fighting all Nine Lords presumibly one at a time. I was just trying to get some tips on how to prepare.

SoC175
2010-09-29, 04:16 PM
Re: the "overdeities"/Twin Serpent debate. No source out-and-out says Asmodeus/Ahriman is an overdeity. Exactly. it's purely a fanon elevation of the one backstory that makes him a greater deity.

I don't think even Ao was described as "an overdeity" as opposed to "the unbelievably powerful greater deity in charge of Toril" until 3e he was in 2e. Both in PS sources (On Hallowed Grounds) and in FR sources (Faiths&Avatars).

where the heropower/demipower/lesser power/greater power scale changed to the quasideity/demigod/lesser deity/intermediate deity/greater deity scale, This change of scale happened in 2e. In 1e the intermediate power level did not exist, it was added in 2e and the overpower level was also added in 2e. Quasi and Hero power levels are also freely interchangeable terms for the same level of divinity.

You don't have to be officially termed an overdeity to be a Power so strong as to be invulnerable to mortals and so ancient as to have put the Wheel in its place. Especially if you and you're pal have been explicitly themed to be greater powers, starting with the very splatbook that gave you the shaper-backstory to begin with.

Besides The Gates of Hell- are there any other really notable compilations of theirs? Maybe something for The Abyss, or even the Upper Planes? Reading it has definitely drawn my interest. Their next plan after completing GtH was to do a Horrors of the Abyss, but then 4e arrived ....

However on their forum archive you can find a lot of deity stats re-done according to their own deity rules (may Greyhawk and FR deities)

As written, the Divine (cosmic?) Rank 21 (in Baator) version of Asmodeus, is less an overdeity, and more a slightly more powerful than normal greater deity.

An overdeity like Ao isn't Divine Rank 21- it's divine rank Infinity, so to speak. It's been a long time, but IIRC that's not their intend. They didn't come around to agree on "official DF stats" for Ao, but they discussed various forms and in each Ao would have simply also had a rank >20 (could have been something like 25 for Ao and then a little above 30 for the true overlord and the Lady of Pain, which they also saw as an overdeity, but I don't remember exactly anymore)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-09-29, 08:30 PM
he was in 2e. Both in PS sources (On Hallowed Grounds) and in FR sources (Faiths&Avatars).

This change of scale happened in 2e. In 1e the intermediate power level did not exist, it was added in 2e and the overpower level was also added in 2e. Quasi and Hero power levels are also freely interchangeable terms for the same level of divinity.

Good to know. As I said, I'm not a big FR buff, so I never really encountered any overdeities or familiarized myself to the overdeity rules in 2e stuff.