Heavy Thrown Weapons in 4e

[GNUsNotUnix]

What's the point of the heavy thrown modifier?

According to the PHB, a heavy thrown weapon uses Strength instead of Dexterity for ranged basic attacks. Sounds intuitive; throwing a javelin requires a lot of upper body strength and, within effective range, usually doesn't have much to do with finesse.

But suppose you want to make javelins your shtick (as a peltast, say). You could take a class with Strength as its key ability (e.g. fighter), but then you can pretty much guarantee that all your powers will be melee based, which isn't what you're going for. You could play a class that specializes in ranged attacks (e.g. ranger), but then you can bet that all of your powers will rely on Dexterity, instead. In either case, you can still use ranged basic attacks to exercise strength, but chances are your at-wills are a better investment, anyway.

Even if you wait for Wizards to come up with a new class or build that uses Strength for ranged attacks, the heavy thrown modifier becomes irrelevant; now it's the class and not the weapon that makes strength key.

You could try to house-rule the problem by letting rangers use Strength instead of Dexterity for weapon powers when applied to a heavy thrown weapon, but then you invite all kinds of broken builds; suddenly you have a character that excels at melee and ranged just as much as someone who'd specialized in either.

What gives? Is there a way to make a strength-based build around heavy thrown weapons? If not, is there a use for heavy thrown weapons at all?

[Mando Knight]

Heavy Thrown is for characters who need a ranged weapon but don't have ranged powers or good Dex scores. This includes Str-Paladins, Not-Dex Fighters, Barbarians, Wardens, and pre-MP2 Warlords (who, if they need a ranged power, can grab some of the ones from MP2). They also double as melee weapons, making them useful for Rangers and MP2 Warlords.

Personally, I never make a Paladin who doesn't carry at least one Javelin (or Hand Axe) just because there are some creatures you just can't get at in 10 squares of movement. I prefer good-Dex Fighters, so it can be a toss-up between a Javelin or a Bow for the ranged weapon. Eladrin Soldier grants access to the Tratnyr, which is a good ranged weapon for Eladrin TacLords if they didn't swap out their chain proficiency for bow proficiency (though it's possible, since Hide is the Taclord's best friend).

In short, they're backup weapons. Their low damage dice and/or proficiency compared to melee-only or ranged-only weapons (as well as shorter range than most, if not all ranged-only weapons) means that they're weak choices for primary weapons, but their versatility makes them good utility belt-type items.

[DragonBaneDM]

I think that's what the Marauder Fighting Style in Martial Power 2 is based around though, right?

That would be your peltast build in 4E, my friend, not fighter.

[GNUsNotUnix]

In short, they're backup weapons.

I agree with you that they're useful as backup weapons by the RAW, but that kinda blows for the "javelins are my shtick" character.


I think that's what the Marauder Fighting Style in Martial Power 2 is based around though, right?

That was my thought, too, at first. The Marauder and Hunter both seem like unconventional ranged weapon junkies, until you realize that they, too require Dexterity to pull off their ranged powers.

[1of3]

Warlords have Str based ranged attacks... since MP2, I think.

[Blackfang108]

I agree with you that they're useful as backup weapons by the RAW, but that kinda blows for the "javelins are my shtick" character.



That was my thought, too, at first. The Marauder and Hunter both seem like unconventional ranged weapon junkies, until you realize that they, too require Dexterity to pull off their ranged powers.

Um...

Throw and Stab: Marauder at will: STR based, Ranged.

Read MPII if you want STR based Ranged powers for heavy thrown weapons.

[GNUsNotUnix]

Throw and Stab: Marauder at will: STR based, Ranged.

My apologies. I did see this power, but seems like most of the Marauder Strength-based ranged powers also include charging the enemy, which is less desirable if you want to focus on ranged attacks.

In any case, this is still a property of the class and not the weapon; you could accomplish the same effect with a sling or dagger.


1of3, a the same applies to the Warlord.



In light of the replies thus far, it seems like the heavy thrown modifier is really only meant to apply to secondary attacks. I agree that a Strength-based ranged attacker could be built, but the heavy thrown modifier is incidental to such builds.

[Kurald Galain]

What's the point of the heavy thrown modifier?
It's already been said - basically, it is to give non-dex based and non-caster classes a viable ranged attack. For balance, basically.

Once you can afford it, it is common procedure for any melee character to carry a +1 heavy thrown weapon (the +1 is so that it automatically returns to your hand).

[Blackfang108]

My apologies. I did see this power, but seems like most of the Marauder Strength-based ranged powers also include charging the enemy, which is less desirable if you want to focus on ranged attacks.

In any case, this is still a property of the class and not the weapon; you could accomplish the same effect with a sling or dagger.

You, um, don't charge an enemy. Errata changed that. you move and make a basic attack against a second enemy.

And the point of the Marauder build seems to be a twGish, holding at least one thrown weapon, and using STR for all attacks.

And you can't use a sling for these attacks, as a sling is not a thrown weapon.

Besides: you're missing the point (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompletelyMissingThePoint). The point of the Heavy Thrown keyword depends on your class.

Seeker: some seeker attacks can be used at melee range, but only if you are wielding a HEAVY THROWN

STR-Based class: sometimes, you need to make an attack at range. Heavy Thrown lets you use your USEFUL stat for that, even if you're just making a Ranged Basic Attack.

[Draz74]

I agree with you that they're useful as backup weapons by the RAW, but that kinda blows for the "javelins are my shtick" character.

Not really. The "heavy thrown" keyword doesn't help the "javelins are my schtick" character (unless he has e.g. one of those Seeker powers that references heavy thrown weapons specifically), but that doesn't stop him from existing and being decent. A dedicated Javelin wielder is pretty easy to make out of a MP2 Warlord, or any class that has a lot of Ranged Weapon powers and has Strength as one of its two main stats. (That might mean just the Ranger and Seeker.)