OOTS #748 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Thank you Belkar :smallmad:. Roy is in so much trouble...

And did Gannji (I can never spell it) set it up on purpose? Wouldn't put it past him...

[John Cribati]

Cue theories about Belkar causing the Death of Roy again.

[Shale]

Belkar ain't too swift, is he.

Also, I don't get the level 8/attack rank 6 gag. Anybody care to explain?

[Elhoim]

Number one fights against number two? Or is it like tennis that it's scheduled so the two highest ranked players meet in the final?

[ThreadKiller]

:belkar: I'm helping you! I'm making sure you look mediocre, isn't that what you want?

Awww, poor Roy. Looking forward to strip 750!

[Maximum Zersk]

Nice SWORD SMASH there, Roy.

[Marnath]

Awesome strip. Can we finally stop having the Roy vs. Belkar discussion now? Roy stomped him so hard he reverted editions!

I get the feeling the numbers mean they're fighting each other, Elhoim.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Belkar ain't too swift, is he.

Also, I don't get the level 8/attack rank 6 gag. Anybody care to explain?

It's a Basic D&D rules joke. Races other than humans could only reach certain levels, and I'm guessing the attack rank fits in with that. Bear in mind, this arena seems to mess with people's perception of what edition/century they're in.

I'm worried about Roy now, though. Roy does seem to be a competent high-level (14-15) fighter, but the fact remains that he's just a fighter. This gives Enor an advantage, even with his high LA.

[SmaugTheYounger]

So very cool. And a good answer to all these speculations about the odds in a figth Belkar vs. Roy. Loved it.

[Yendor]

Oh, yes. Damn, that's satisfying.

[Asthix]

I like. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I'll leave all the technicals to others (Attack rating 6? don't get that, must be 1st ed.) loved the mst3k reference though:smallwink:.

Just gotta say kudos to Rich you do so much with the stick figure format. There's such weight to the way this comic comes off considering the underlying power struggle outlined by TOGIP (The Old Guys In Prison- oh yeah!) The way Roy uses a period wheh he smacks down Belkar! I was left with a feeling of warm satisfied fuzziness. Great Job!

[Crisis21]

Poor Roy, he's just too awesome for his own good. I can see Gannji get what's coming to him as well, I highly doubt he's going to get off scot-free after what he pulled with Tarquin.

Would someone also explain Belkar's dazed line at the end there for me please, I'm afraid I haven't played D&D long enough to get it.

[Mando Knight]

I believe we call that a...

HEADSHOT.

[SPoD]

Also, I don't get the level 8/attack rank 6 gag. Anybody care to explain?

It's Attack Rank G, not 6. It's from Basic D&D, the old Red Box edition.

Demihumans could only advance to a certain level at first, but then they introduced higher levels to the game. Rather than undo the level restrictions, they gave demihumans the ability to gain additional "attack ranks" from A to H or something that made them attack almost as well as a human with the same amount of XP.

[theinsulabot]

:belkar: I'm making you look mediocre!

:roy: *thwak* now give me your bread! and your lunch money.

[Mystic Muse]

That was awesome!

[JoeSkull]

Belkar = OWNED

[SPoD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this also mean Belkar's alignment is now Chaotic and his class Fighter?

No, his class would be Halfling. Demihumans were both your class and race in that edition. You would be a 3rd-level Elf or a 5th-level Dwarf - or an 8th-level Fighter (and automatically be human).

However, it is almost certainly a one-panel joke that won't be mentioned again, so it doesn't really matter.

[Marnath]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this also mean Belkar's alignment is now Chaotic and his class Fighter?

Pretty sure it just means he has a concussion. :smallwink:

[Mando Knight]

However, it is almost certainly a one-panel joke that won't be mentioned again, so it doesn't really matter.

Unless, of course, Roy's new attack is "hurt someone, then knock them back 3 editions." :smalltongue:

[Chambers]

I like the sword imprint on Belkars face. Nice.

[Asthix]

Unless, of course, Roy's new attack is "hurt someone, then knock them back 3 editions." :smalltongue:

Yeah, but how much damage would that really do to Xykon?

[MonkeyBusiness]

Oh, Roy. Use your words.

... just your words. :smallannoyed:

:smallbiggrin: "That boy just got his ass knocked back to basic!"
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: The sword print down the front of Belkar's face!

<happy sigh> One more element in a very nice Friday evening. Thanks, Giant!
.

[DukeGod]

That depends,how powerful were sorcerers back in Basic?Did they even existed?Otherwise maybe he'll cause Xykon to lose all his levels

Also,I like the guard saying "That boy got his ass knocked to Basic!"
Oh,and Roy just got higher the number list than a half-dragon

[Swordpriest]

Yeah, but how much damage would that really do to Xykon?

Since he's a sorcerer and they didn't exist three editions ago, wouldn't that cause him to cease to exist? :smallwink:

[Arcane_Secrets]

This seems like a pretty good case for Belkar *really* causing Roy's death.

[RebelRogue]

Loved the BECMI joke! :smallbiggrin:

[MammonAzrael]

Hahaha....nice Power Attack Roy. Sorry you couldn't stand looking mediocre! :smallamused:

[HUMVEE Driver]

Sweet. :smallbiggrin: Very cool. About time we saw some action.

I hope those freaking cold blooded lizards get exactly what they deserve.

[KingFlameHawk]

If you look at the first panel you can see that the dragon Enor has metal bands around his wings. Cool little detail by the author:smallbiggrin:!!!

[Marnath]

If you look at the first panel you can see that the dragon Enor has metal bands around his wings. Cool little detail by the author:smallbiggrin:!!!

He's had them for a while, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0738.html)

[mucat]

I love Gannji sticking his tongue out at Roy after his trick works... :smalltongue:

[choie]

Ah Rich. It's the little things that make this strip so great. Love that most of the sound effects are standard "thwonks" or "thonks," but for the nut shot, we get... thjunk!

[hobbitkniver]

Hope there's a good fight coming up soon.

[Swordpriest]

A random question here -- why are there no female gladiators? :smallconfused:

[FoE]

They're not going to make Roy and Enor fight first, are they?

That's a terrible idea! You don't start out the day with your best fight! You build up to it with a few fights amongst the less-skilled, low-level peons. Perhaps, if you have a surplus of prisoners, you even pit them against a monster they have little hope of defeating so the crowd can work up a good bloodlust for the main event and have a few laughs.

What kind of half-assed slave state that butchers men for entertainment is this?! :smallmad:

[Marnath]

They're not going to make Roy and Enor fight first, are they?

That's a terrible idea! You don't start out the day with your best fight! You build up to it with a few fights amongst the less-skilled, low-level peons. Perhaps, if you have a surplus of prisoners, you even pit them against a monster they have little hope of defeating so the crowd can work up a good bloodlust for the main event.

What kind of half-assed slave state that butchers men for entertainment is this?! :smallmad:

Maybe they start at the bottom of the list and work up?

[CelestialMagpie]

I think it is a bottom up fight system.

Roy and Enor are at the top - the main event. It's a perfect set up for a climactic reunion when everyone goes to watch the games, only to see Roy fighting a half-dragon.

Though, if it's a tournament style fight, then that fight between Belkar and Roy may happen, but only if Belkar somehow works his way up the tournament ranks to Roy.

Poor Roy - being pestered led to one serious situation....:smalleek:

[Marnath]

Poor Roy - being pestered led to one serious situation....:smalleek:

Come to think of it, he's never snapped like this before. I guess getting assaulted in addition to insulted/annoyed is what tips the scale. I guess Elan better just not hit him on purpose, Roy would probably outright kill him with a blow that strong. I doubt that will happen though.

[Assassin89]

I am thinking that this will bite Ganji in the tail vertebrae area if Roy defeats Enor? Because there is a chance that his plan to kill Roy will fail if Roy is annoyed enough.

[Nimrod's Son]

There's a misplaced apostrophe in Belkar's speech bubble, panel eight.

[Crisis21]

A random question here -- why are there no female gladiators? :smallconfused:
It's an Evil Empire. Most of those in power appear to be male. I'm sure they have.... other... uses for female prisoners.

Yes, it is sick, twisted, and wrong. That's what Evil Empires do.

[Marnath]

There's a misplaced apostrophe in Belkar's speech bubble, panel eight.

I'm sure of two things. One, it probably will not be fixed. Two, we'll see this brought up at least eleven more times over the next 2-16 months. :smallsmile:

[Nimrod's Son]

One, it probably will not be fixed.
In the book it will be, as long as it's caught in time.

[FoE]

It's an Evil Empire. Most of those in power appear to be male. I'm sure they have.... other... uses for female prisoners.

Knowing Elan's dad? You are probably correct.

[JonestheSpy]

You know, I've been really looking forward to seeing Belkar go wild in the arena. Hope this doesn't mean that gets mothballed and it's all Roy.

Not that I don't love Roy, but c'mon, Belkar in the arena!

[brionl]

Unless, of course, Roy's new attack is "hurt someone, then knock them back 3 editions." :smalltongue:

Dagnabbit! I was going to say that!

Hmm, if he did it to Xykon. I'm pretty sure Liches weren't in the Red Box/Basic. They were added in Greyhawk, and everybody pretty much mixed everything all in back then, so he'd probably still exist. However, everything used d6 for hit dice so he'd lose a lot of hit points. No Sorcerors probably would just mean he'd become a Wizard. Since IIRC, that was the "official" bafflegab when 3ed was released, that Sorcerors always existed, just nobody bothered to distinguish them from Wizards.

[blunk]

They're not going to make Roy and Enor fight first, are they?May I recommend reading the flyer for a concert, followed by attending said concert?

[Nevitan]

:furious : indeed!

[Crisis21]

You know, I've been really looking forward to seeing Belkar go wild in the arena. Hope this doesn't mean that gets mothballed and it's all Roy.

Not that I don't love Roy, but c'mon, Belkar in the arena!

Belkar will probably get put on the list. Just further down. :smallsmile:

[blunk]

Also, I'm amused that Gannji's strategy (seen in the first panel) appears to go beyond "be noticed as mediocre" to "don't be noticed at all". Nice low-key character development.

[Crisis21]

Also, I'm amused that Gannji's strategy (seen in the first panel) appears to go beyond "be noticed as mediocre" to "don't be noticed at all". Nice low-key character development.
If that is his plan, I have a feeling it won't work too well. Tarquin's note gave a heavy implication that Gannji will be fighting in the arena. I don't think that Tarquin would be above ordering a specific prisoner to be added to the schedule.

[Fargazer]

Nooo! Enor! Not even a half-dragon can take a main character! :smalleek:

[Scarlet Knight]

A random question here -- why are there no female gladiators? :smallconfused:

The brown lizardfolk in panel 5 is obviously a babe. :smallwink:

[lothos]

No, his class would be Halfling. Demihumans were both your class and race in that edition. You would be a 3rd-level Elf or a 5th-level Dwarf - or an 8th-level Fighter (and automatically be human).

However, it is almost certainly a one-panel joke that won't be mentioned again, so it doesn't really matter.

If I recall correctly from the boxed sets, halflings were based on the human "Thief" class (roughly a modern rouge). So he would only have d6 hit dice and would gain class features of climb walls, hide in shadows, move silently....

In the boxed set (Basic) D&D, as SPoD says, you don't have a class separate from your race. If you were an Elf, you were basically a magic user (Wizard) with a level restriction and some flavouring, plus whenever you built a stronghold it had to be made of wood, which was pretty awful but still cost the same..... If you were a Dwarf, similarly you were basically a fighter with a bit of flavour and again level restrictions. Halflings were basically thieves, again with a level cap and flavourings....

It probably is just a one panel joke, but it would be funny if he suddenly gained class features like climb walls and used it to escape.. (Yes, Climb walls was a class feature of thieves / halflings... other classes couldn't climb walls).

[borg286]

I loved the thjunk with the nut wack.

[The MunchKING]

hah. Fancy other tricks may not work when you're stuck with little toy swords, but a Power Attack is a Power Attack.

[factotum]

In the boxed set (Basic) D&D, as SPoD says, you don't have a class separate from your race. If you were an Elf, you were basically a magic user (Wizard) with a level restriction and some flavouring, plus whenever you built a stronghold it had to be made of wood

Presumably that would be going on to the Expert D&D set, because I'm pretty sure the Basic set only had levels up to 3--4 to 14 were added in Expert. (At least in the editions I played, there may have been an even earlier Basic I don't know about).

[Grendus]

A two handed wooden sword is like a greatclub, no surprise Roy handed Belkar's ass to him. Roy took out an entire bandit camp with one before, plus it's a greatsword which means his weapon feats probably count as well.

I doubt Roy would ever hit Elan, Elan is like his annoying little brother (Elan fantasizes that Roy wants to hang out, Roy thanks he's annoying... sounds like brothers to me). If Roy yelled at Elan he'd cry. Belkar is tougher than Elan, and it takes a good thwack to get things through to him sometimes.

[lothos]

Presumably that would be going on to the Expert D&D set, because I'm pretty sure the Basic set only had levels up to 3--4 to 14 were added in Expert. (At least in the editions I played, there may have been an even earlier Basic I don't know about).

Yes:
Basic - Levels 1 to 3 - Red Box
Expert - Levels 4 to 14 - Dark Blue Box
Companions - Levels 15 to 21 (I think 21) - Cyan Box
Masters - 22 to 30 ? - Black Box
Immortals - 30 - 36 ? - Gold Box.

36 was the highest level you could become.
Poor Belkar though, stuck at level 8 :-)

There was an even earlier edition than these boxed sets, which I never played myself. However the range of boxed sets are often referred to as "Basic D&D". So when I said "basic", I didn't mean just the red boxed set, I actually meant the whole set of boxed sets....

[Faltenin]

Wow... as usual, so much debate over rules and classes and alignment and "who'd beat who"... Gotta love the OOTS forum :smallwink:

In the mean time, no-one commenting on one of the brilliant lines here - Bob Saget's "Nut shots", the crowd loves them!

I think the slots are also the headlines to attract the crowd. "Man vs. Dragon, the Ultimate Showdown" :smallsmile:

[RebelRogue]

If I recall correctly from the boxed sets, halflings were based on the human "Thief" class (roughly a modern rouge). So he would only have d6 hit dice and would gain class features of climb walls, hide in shadows, move silently....

In the boxed set (Basic) D&D, as SPoD says, you don't have a class separate from your race. If you were an Elf, you were basically a magic user (Wizard) with a level restriction and some flavouring, plus whenever you built a stronghold it had to be made of wood, which was pretty awful but still cost the same..... If you were a Dwarf, similarly you were basically a fighter with a bit of flavour and again level restrictions. Halflings were basically thieves, again with a level cap and flavourings....
Halflings were essentially fighters, not thieves, believe it or not (they still had low HD). Elves were fighter/magic-users (they needed double the XP of a regular fighter to reach level 2). Dwarves were plain fighters too. Basic is level 1-3, Expert 4-14, Companion 15-25, Master 26-36.

[the_tick_rules]

Belkar's home now.

[Morgan Wick]

There isn't really much here that couldn't be seen coming from a mile away.

I wouldn't be surprised if Roy and Enor fight first despite being good just for being noobs. You need to put the winner over, get some crowd reaction going for them before they're asked to carry main events.

[mikelibrarian]

Come to think of it, he's never snapped like this before.

He punched the head off an epic level sorceror lich.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html

Granted, I'm guessing that Mr. Burlew hadn't decided on making Xykon an empire beating menace at that point, but still, a lich is a lich.

[SilverLeaf167]

Didn't anyone else notice the most obvious non-core reference in the comic, possibly ever? Belkar talks about a Hexblade. I think this is about the first time when they actually mention something non-core... (Hexblade is from Complete Warrior)

[Locnil]

So... does this mean Belkar will be in the fight, or not? Just for comedy's sake, I hope Roy gets in and not him.

[mistformsquirrl]

Didn't anyone else notice the most obvious non-core reference in the comic, possibly ever? Belkar talks about a Hexblade. I think this is about the first time when they actually mention something non-core... (Hexblade is from Complete Warrior)

Huh? They asked Miko about if she had Samurai levels way back when. No version of Samurai I'm aware of is Core. (There's the Oriental Adventures version and the very very bleh Complete Warrior version, if I remember right.)

[SilverLeaf167]

Oh. Didn't remember that :P
Still, it's pretty rare, right?

[Skaven]

I love Gannji so much! haha, forked tongue out at Roy ftw!

[Kobold-Bard]

Belkar got PWND!!!1! :smallbiggrin:

Gues Roy'll have to work on that temper after beating Xykon if he wants to get into Celestia.

re: non-core. Tsukiko also uses Orb of X spells.

[Mr. Snuggles]

How did Belkar jump around like that without his magic ring?

[whitelaughter]

Many levels of awesome.....

And yes, the level cap of 8 for halflings was in the blue boxed set; Dwarves and Elves had similar limits. (I didn't get the Attack Rank until it was explained, as it isn't in the Expert rules).

However, if Belkar is stuck in Basic, then he's on the right continent - under Basic Rules, as an 8th level Halfling he can found his own little [cough]"kingdom"[cough].

Any time sometime tries to tell you that halflings aren't cribbed straight from LotR, point them at the Basic Rules: the realm a Halfling can/found rule is called a "Shire".

[Twilight Jack]

It would seem to me that Roy got himself upgraded to a Pathfinder Fighter, with some serious critical feats working for him.

[lothos]

Halflings were essentially fighters, not thieves, believe it or not (they still had low HD). Elves were fighter/magic-users (they needed double the XP of a regular fighter to reach level 2). Dwarves were plain fighters too. Basic is level 1-3, Expert 4-14, Companion 15-25, Master 26-36.

Are you sure about those levels ? It's been many years and I don't own them, but I definitely remember there being an "Immortals" set, in a gold box. That fitted in to the 36 levels somehow.... I think Master finished earlier than that but as I said, it's been a long time.

I do remember elves having better fighting capabilities than human wizards, though not anything close to fighter capabilities.

So I guess if Halflings were more fighter-ish than thief-ish, Belkar might still be able to defend himself...

[Killer Angel]

I love Belkar's Wis... :smalltongue:

also, +1 for the reference to the old D&D Boxes! :smallsmile:

[DougTheHead]

I wouldn't be surprised if Roy and Enor fight first despite being good just for being noobs. You need to put the winner over, get some crowd reaction going for them before they're asked to carry main events.

Agreed. Remember, it's only the "new blood" they're scouting here. The Empire doubtless has a group of veteran fighters waiting to take apart the new meat.

Also, did anyone notice that Roy is in the traditional "bad guy" slot? He's going to come in looking like a normal fighter, then tear the giant blue dragon apart in the first round, proving how strong he is right off the bat.

[Kareasint]

Yes:
Basic - Levels 1 to 3 - Red Box
Expert - Levels 4 to 14 - Dark Blue Box
Companions - Levels 15 to 21 (I think 21) - Cyan Box
Masters - 22 to 30 ? - Black Box
Immortals - 30 - 36 ? - Gold Box.

36 was the highest level you could become.
Poor Belkar though, stuck at level 8 :-)

There was an even earlier edition than these boxed sets, which I never played myself. However the range of boxed sets are often referred to as "Basic D&D". So when I said "basic", I didn't mean just the red boxed set, I actually meant the whole set of boxed sets....

Ok. You guys made me go actually pull out the box sets.

Yes, I am that old and they are all first printings. I still have the crayon that was included to color in the plastic dice.

Companions went from level 15 to 25
Masters went from level 26 to 36 which was as high as you could go.
There is a Gold set but I do not have one.

Btw. Level 8 plus Attack level G = Level 15. One more attack level and Belkar only takes half damage from Breath Weapons! (1/4 on a save)

[The Pilgrim]

This pretty much settles the "who would win in a battle between Roy and Belkar" debate.

"Got his butt knocked back to Basic", ROLF.

[Ancalagon]

They probably still will send Belkar to the arena... he's shown to be more competent than the "other guys" around...

[glissle]

Art error (I hope) in panel 5: Belkar managed to chop the redhead's leg off.

[Killer Angel]

This pretty much settles the "who would win in a battle between Roy and Belkar" debate.


Even if I could agree, who knows? it isnt a proof... Roy delivered a huge blow out of frustration, and belkar wasn't really fighting. He was just joking/bullying and provoking Roy, to obtain a reaction (which certainly surpassed what Belkar was expecting).

[LuisDantas]

Eh. Belkar had it coming for a LONG time. Too bad that Roy will suffer the consequences.

I predict that Roy will refuse to make much of a show in the arena, and that will lead the showrunners to pair him against Belkar again, thereby fulfilling the prophecy.

Gannji's attitude made perfect sense. He would certainly jump at any chance to get back at those backstabbing mammals.

Don't the 1st Edition references imply that Belkar was created before 2nd Ed.?

[LuisDantas]

Even if I could agree, who knows? it isnt a proof... Roy delivered a huge blow out of frustration, and belkar wasn't really fighting. He was just joking/bullying and provoking Roy, to obtain a reaction (which certainly surpassed what Belkar was expecting).

Belkar is all too aware that Roy has better stats and better combat feats than him. And he actually claims to want to make Roy look mediocre. He better be "really" fighting, or else there is something weird going on.

[TheBlackShadow]

Wow, Belkar got pwned. I suppose that puts all those "Who Would Win In A Fight" speculation threads to rest. Nice to see Roy being badass, and Belkar getting a beatdown.

[SoC175]

This pretty much settles the "who would win in a battle between Roy and Belkar" debate.

"Got his butt knocked back to Basic", ROLF.
Wow, Belkar got pwned. I suppose that puts all those "Who Would Win In A Fight" speculation threads to rest. Nice to see Roy being badass, and Belkar getting a beatdown.

Well, it could either a crit with full strength power attack (which is something Roy can only try because both are without their AC improving armors, rings, ...) or the dreaded "power of plot attack"

[maxon]

I like the way Gannji is sticking his tongue out at Roy in the last panel. Doesn't that mean he's savouring the smell of chagrin?

[Oslecamo]

And that's why Belkar respects/fears Roy!:smallbiggrin:

FULL POWER ATTACK FTW!

[AlfredAmeoba]

Heh. Anyone notice the sound effect on Belkars "nut shot"

Great comic!

[Athaniar]

:belkar:"Everyone, follow the bouncing halfling!"

Belkar is a good gladiator, sure, but he's no Roy. The real fight is going to be interesting indeed.

[Killer Angel]

Belkar is all too aware that Roy has better stats and better combat feats than him. And he actually claims to want to make Roy look mediocre. He better be "really" fighting, or else there is something weird going on.

I agree that on open ground, Belkar stands no chance agains Roy; to have some possibility, he should have a ground with cover and places to hide (as with the fight with Miko).
Also, i think that probably Belkar is of level higher then Roy, given the long absence of our favourite fighter from the battlefield...

[Gerrtt]

I love the wooden sword shaped mark on Belkar's face in the last panel! Fantastic!

[Asthix]

Art error (I hope) in panel 5: Belkar managed to chop the redhead's leg off.

Woah you're right! Looks like that guy won't be fighting in the arena.

[luxgladius]

I'm surprised that Roy was able to knock Belkar down so decidedly. They were presumably around the same level when Roy went splat and Belkar had that whole time in the resistance to gain XP, not to mention the Thieves' Guild Massacre. Hasn't Roy only had that one fight with the slavers to gain XP since losing a level from being raised? Stats guys, what's the over-under on his level now?

[MarkusWolfe]

Belkar should consider himself lucky Roy is not a Barbarian, else that Power Attack combined with Rage would not only have knocked him back to Basic Edition. Indeed, it may have knocked him back so hard he actually ended up jumping forward to 4th edition.....whether or not that is bad depends on a lot of things actually.

[Geno9999]

:smalleek:Holy crap, Roy smashed the munchkin in the group. Probably underleveled. In one blow.:smalleek:

[Tobimaro]

:belkar: "Crowds love nut shots. Sagat was on the air for like 8 years."

And once again the fourth wall takes another nut shot. :smallbiggrin:

[MarkusWolfe]

Belkar? A munchkin? Nah, he's just a harmless old Slayer, who only has enough Powergamer in him to play his role competently.

[blackjack217]

Maybe this gladiator fight is Roy's chance to level up again.

[Swordpriest]

:belkar: "Crowds love nut shots. Sagat was on the air for like 8 years."

And once again the fourth wall takes another nut shot. :smallbiggrin:

While it's funny, it also makes me wince a little, because we're sure to get ten pages of pointless speculation from people who assume it isn't supposed to be funny, but think that saying it's funny is some sort of "intellect-deprived copout from people who have nothing constructive to say" and that there's a deep, significant, mysterious meaning to Belkar's mentioning such a thing, that just needs sufficiently intellectual analysis to figure out some wondrous key to why it's in the comic -- because nothing in OotS can ever be just a joke. :smallsigh:

[seraine]

I lol'ed so hard when I saw that.Great comic!

[Willis888]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who lol'd at the sound effects of panel 4.

[silvadel]

"Hey -- this is even better. Thanks reptilian guy!"

Belkar FLOPPED like a soccer player.

He considered it more "funny" to screw Roy than to actually be considered first and fighting.

[Mordokai]

Oh how I wish that was a real sword...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oh dear me...oh dear me...

[Ethdred]

:belkar: "Crowds love nut shots. Sagat was on the air for like 8 years."

And once again the fourth wall takes another nut shot. :smallbiggrin:

Any chance you could explain this for those who don't have an exhaustive knowledge of US stand ups?

But great to see a bit of edition comedy back in here

[Aldrakan]

How did Belkar jump around like that without his magic ring?

Barring that it's just artistic exaggeration, I'd guess he still has the ring. He concealed it in Azure City, he may have done the same here.

[Lycar]

Hehe, just as someone else two three people before me noted, Gannji sticking his forky lizard tongue out at Roy is just sooo cute! :smalltongue:

Well okay not so much cute as a basket full of kittens but... well you know what I mean.

And good catch: Do lizardmen smell with their tongues? I believe the Monster Manual is silent on the issue.

Lycar

[Burner28]

hmm. Guess Gannji's a little bit vindictive though. I wonder how long it would be before someone tries to guess his alignment again.:smallamused:

[Somewhere]

Any chance you could explain this for those who don't have an exhaustive knowledge of US stand ups?

But great to see a bit of edition comedy back in here

America's Funniest Home Videos; the first 8 years were hosted by Bob Saget. It's mainly remembered for the videos of people getting hit in the groin one way or another.

[Kish]

Don't the 1st Edition references imply that Belkar was created before 2nd Ed.?
There are no 1st Edition references. The 0ed references imply that Belkar got "knocked back to Basic," which the guards comment on.

[Crisis21]

Art error (I hope) in panel 5: Belkar managed to chop the redhead's leg off.

*checks* HOLY BOOP, you're right! MEDIC!:smalltongue:

[Mordokai]

I'm fairly sure what you meant to say was, in fact, CLERIC!

:smalltongue:

[Crisis21]

I'm fairly sure what you meant to say was, in fact, CLERIC!

:smalltongue:

Oh, right, thanks! CLERIC!:smalltongue:

[SnowballMan]

Now I'm feeling nostalgic for some Basic D&D.

Sadly, all that I have left are the dice and the cover to the red book.

[Marnath]

Even if I could agree, who knows? it isnt a proof... Roy delivered a huge blow out of frustration, and belkar wasn't really fighting. He was just joking/bullying and provoking Roy, to obtain a reaction (which certainly surpassed what Belkar was expecting).

If he's not really fighting, why is everyone else he hit laying on the ground, eh? Looks to me like he's really hitting Roy as hard as he can. If he wasn't, why would Roy snap now in the face of all the other times Belkar has merely annoyed him instead of actually hitting him?

[Crisis21]

Heh, I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned this yet. Roy's angry all-caps sentence has a period instead of an exclamation mark.

For those who don't think it makes a difference, compare and contrast the following:

"I SAID STOP IT."

"I SAID STOP IT!"


Personally, I'm willing to chalk it up to an artistic choice on Rich's part. The period makes Roy sound like he's still trying to keep his temper under control even though he's raised his voice (and power attacked Belkar of course). He's angry, but he hasn't completely lost it yet.

[Juron Pilo]

Prediction: Roy has some sort of counter attack feat.

[Particle_Man]

Are you sure about those levels ? It's been many years and I don't own them, but I definitely remember there being an "Immortals" set, in a gold box. That fitted in to the 36 levels somehow.... I think Master finished earlier than that but as I said, it's been a long time.

The Gold Box Immortals rules are for post-level 36 (becoming Immortals - Gods, effectively, so numbered levels are meaningless and thus there is no "level 37"). You pick a sphere to back (Time, Matter, Thought, Energy) and fight for position and power and especially against the "5th sphere" Entropy. Basically (I pun!) it becomes a different sort of game altogether.

Note, becoming an Immortal is hard. One of the paths to immortality requires you to get to level 36 in one of the 4 human classes (fighter, magic-user, cleric or thief) and then start over and do it three more times in the other 3 classes! Hands up anyone here who has taken the same character through 144 levels of adventure (especially since advancement slows down a lot for each class around "name level", or about 9-11).

Oh and a lich exists in the Rules Cyclopedia (which compiles Basic, Expert, Companion and Master rules) as a cleric or magic-user (usually of levels 27-36, which is jaw-droppingly powerful in the RC ruleset).

And for Belkar fans, I note that Belkar did not activate his barbarian rage. Might that have tipped the scales vs. Roy? Just wondering. :)

[Crisis21]

And for Belkar fans, I note that Belkar did not activate his barbarian rage. Might that have tipped the scales vs. Roy? Just wondering. :)

Of course he didn't rage! Belkar was thrilled at the prospect of competing in a bloody to-the-death tournament where he can't be held accountable for whatever he does to his opponents. It shouldn't be possible for him to rage in that state.

Have you ever tried getting truly angry (raging, in effect) when you're so happy that it's like you won the lottery (or any other pleasant event analogy, pick your favorite)? Simply not possible. :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

There are no 1st Edition references. The 0ed references imply that Belkar got "knocked back to Basic," which the guards comment on.

If that's 0th edition then what was the original game? Which came out YEARS earlier and was in a WHITE, not red box? -1th edition? Would that make the original Chainmail miniatures rules the -2nd edition?

Seriously, if you're going to call something 0th edition it should be the old Men and Magic, Monster's and Treasure, and Wilderness Adventure's game.

You can throw in all four suplements if you like.

[Grimly Feendish]

Belkar should consider himself lucky Roy is not a Barbarian, else that Power Attack combined with Rage would not only have knocked him back to Basic Edition. Indeed, it may have knocked him back so hard he actually ended up jumping forward to 4th edition.....whether or not that is bad depends on a lot of things actually.

Is that the very first mention of the 4th edition? Considering the joke that strip 1 was about I was wondering when it would come up.

[shadowkiller]

Would that count as defeating Belkar? Because if it did Roy just got a ton of XP for it.

[factotum]

If that's 0th edition then what was the original game? Which came out YEARS earlier and was in a WHITE, not red box? -1th edition? Would that make the original Chainmail miniatures rules the -2nd edition?


0th edition is definitely incorrect--as I recall the Basic D&D that everyone is referring to came out in 1980 or thereabouts, several years after 1st edition AD&D. It was essentially a different game with similar, albeit simplified, rules.

[Marnath]

Is that the very first mention of the 4th edition? Considering the joke that strip 1 was about I was wondering when it would come up.

It has come up literally thousands of times since 4e was announced. They are not converting to 4e. Ever.

[Kareasint]

I'm surprised that Roy was able to knock Belkar down so decidedly. They were presumably around the same level when Roy went splat and Belkar had that whole time in the resistance to gain XP, not to mention the Thieves' Guild Massacre. Hasn't Roy only had that one fight with the slavers to gain XP since losing a level from being raised? Stats guys, what's the over-under on his level now?

Belkar likely flunked his Fort save to remove that negative level from the Wight's attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html).

I would not call Basic D&D 0 edition. It is completely separate from AD&D and works a lot differently. I have played both systems. Demi-humans are not treated all that well in basic.

[Stickthief]

Boom! Good job roy.

[Marnath]

Belkar likely flunked his Fort save to remove that negative level from the Wight's attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html).


Also, at the time of his death Roy was the highest level good PC on the battlefield. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)
So, he could be two or more levels above Belkar, since Belkar takes a substantial xp penalty from his barbarian level(s?)

[Koretsu]

It's Attack Rank G, not 6. It's from Basic D&D, the old Red Box edition.

Demihumans could only advance to a certain level at first, but then they introduced higher levels to the game. Rather than undo the level restrictions, they gave demihumans the ability to gain additional "attack ranks" from A to H or something that made them attack almost as well as a human with the same amount of XP.


...Unless I'm quite mistaken, wouldn't that mean that Belkar just gave a small nod to indicate their character levels to be around 15?

[Kish]

...Unless I'm quite mistaken, wouldn't that mean that Belkar just gave a small nod to indicate their character levels to be around 15?
Didn't Vaarsuvius do that when s/he cast Power Word Stun?

[silvadel]

Would that count as defeating Belkar? Because if it did Roy just got a ton of XP for it.

I think it counts more as belkar defeating roy. By flopping and feigning defeat he managed to get roy into the battle roy was wholeheartedly trying to avoid.

[Crisis21]

I think it counts more as belkar defeating roy. By flopping and feigning defeat he managed to get roy into the battle roy was wholeheartedly trying to avoid.

That doesn't look feigned to me.

[silvadel]

That doesn't look feigned to me.

Ok -- tell me ONE way that Roy could one-shot belkar the ranger/barbarian with a wooden sword. It just is not possible to do that much damage.

PLUS -- He thanked the reptilian guy. Up until that moment the plan was to get in the ring -- once he saw he could provoke Roy he took the shot.

All he needed to do was to get hit ONCE then he could play the act and in goes Roy.

[Marnath]

That doesn't look feigned to me.

I agree that doesn't look like he is faking it. I think he's seriously injured.

[Da'Shain]

Ok -- tell me ONE way that Roy could one-shot belkar the ranger/barbarian with a wooden sword. It just is not possible to do that much damage.Full power attack critical hit on someone who's been in gladiator practice for days and forced to rely only on natural healing? That's all I can think of, anyway.

Not that I'm saying Belkar definitely isn't faking, but I think it's at least remotely possible Roy just got in that powerful a hit -- and also that this might have been one of those situations where rules took a backseat to plot/funny.

[Drascin]

Prediction: Roy has some sort of counter attack feat.

Rather, I think it might be one feat Grandpa taught him. Remember how Roy drew attention to how Grandpa Greenhilt "took the guy down in one hit?" while Roy simply Full-Attacked?

But eh, all this is pointless speculation. Today's strip's point was the funny - and it certainly delivered. "I got attack rank G". Heh :smallamused:.

[JoeSkull]

Ok -- tell me ONE way that Roy could one-shot belkar the ranger/barbarian with a wooden sword.


Plot damage.

[Marnath]

Full power attack critical hit on someone who's been in gladiator practice for days and forced to rely only on natural healing? That's all I can think of, anyway.

Not that I'm saying Belkar definitely isn't faking, but I think it's at least remotely possible Roy just got in that powerful a hit -- and also that this might have been one of those situations where rules took a backseat to plot/funny.

You have that backwards. Normally Belkar has plot awesomeness, but for this instance Roy's plot awesomeness passes Belkar's DR/plot, and lets face it, Belkar's build sucks hard in actual practice.

[Crisis21]

Ok -- tell me ONE way that Roy could one-shot belkar the ranger/barbarian with a wooden sword. It just is not possible to do that much damage.

PLUS -- He thanked the reptilian guy. Up until that moment the plan was to get in the ring -- once he saw he could provoke Roy he took the shot.

All he needed to do was to get hit ONCE then he could play the act and in goes Roy.

I never said that Belkar didn't provoke Roy. I said that he didn't seem to be faking. It's hard to fake being knocked silly after enduring something that might actually knock you silly. Belkar was obviously in a 'how many fingers am I holding up' (or, 'what edition are we playing' as the case may be) state after Roy's attack.

I'm pretty sure that Belkar would have provoked Roy into showing his battle ability for the sole purpose of getting Roy into the games, where Belkar knows Roy doesn't want to be, because Belkar would find that amusing. Belkar would totally do that.

However, Roy clearly did a major attack, likely power attack or related feat, against Belkar and dealt significant damage. Note that Roy also hit Belkar with a bashing weapon to the face and Roy probably has a significantly higher STR than Belkar does even without his magic items.

Yes, Belkar survived it no problem. He's even conscious. It was still clearly enough to daze him which means that what Roy did was no play hit and would have posed a potent threat to Belkar's life had it been done with a bladed weapon.

I can honestly see this comic, once the jokes have been put aside, as Rich reestablishing Roy's 'badass' potential in the minds of his readers.

[Arrowstorm122]

anyone else than me thinks that Roys smash hit on Belkar are going to be more than just a hit? maybe Belkar gets some respect for Roy for beating him, Belkar gets furious on Roy or something? :smalleek:

[Crisis21]

anyone else than me thinks that Roys smash hit on Belkar are going to be more than just a hit? maybe Belkar gets some respect for Roy for beating him, Belkar gets furious on Roy or something? :smalleek:

I believe that Belkar has had (grudging) respect for Roy for a long time. The evidence I can give for this is that Belkar is Chaotic Evil, but he listens to orders from Roy who is Lawful Good. While Roy's influence over Belkar has never been perfect (or anything resembling it) it has been very real as evidenced by the graph in this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) I'm pretty sure that it has been backed up numerous times by physical violence (or at least the threat of it) both on and off panel. I highly doubt that this one action by Roy will change his relationship with Belkar that much.

[JonestheSpy]

Ok -- tell me ONE way that Roy could one-shot belkar the ranger/barbarian with a wooden sword. It just is not possible to do that much damage.


Tell you what - go find a very strong, highly trained SCA fighter to slam you in the face with a baseball bat, then get back to us.

Seriously, the strip quite often reflects real fighting more than DnD rules. People are often dazed, stunned, knocked down, etc after taking a big hit (whether via melee or spells) in a way that is in keeping with what happens to someone if they're thwacked hard in real life but has absolutely no parallel in the DnD combat. And I'm just fine with that.

[elonin]

I don't think that Belkar has much in the way of forethought. My guess is that Belkar was trying to provoke Roy into trying to get him to show off his ability. And didn't expect to get smacked that hard.

Would the chainmail series count as edition 0? Think those are the first books that counted as dnd. I've heard basic dnd referred to as 1st ed and adnd as 2nd edition. Don't remember the ranks comment though I've played in all of the editions I listed here, though the level max that Belkar mentioned is a 2e reference.

[MarkusWolfe]

I never said that Belkar didn't provoke Roy. I said that he didn't seem to be faking. It's hard to fake being knocked silly after enduring something that might actually knock you silly. Belkar was obviously in a 'how many fingers am I holding up' (or, 'what edition are we playing' as the case may be) state after Roy's attack.

I'm pretty sure that Belkar would have provoked Roy into showing his battle ability for the sole purpose of getting Roy into the games, where Belkar knows Roy doesn't want to be, because Belkar would find that amusing. Belkar would totally do that.

However, Roy clearly did a major attack, likely power attack or related feat, against Belkar and dealt significant damage. Note that Roy also hit Belkar with a bashing weapon to the face and Roy probably has a significantly higher STR than Belkar does even without his magic items.

Yes, Belkar survived it no problem. He's even conscious. It was still clearly enough to daze him which means that what Roy did was no play hit and would have posed a potent threat to Belkar's life had it been done with a bladed weapon.

I can honestly see this comic, once the jokes have been put aside, as Rich reestablishing Roy's 'badass' potential in the minds of his readers.

Truth be told, if he was wielding the Greenhilt, Belkar's skull would've split and Roy would have performed a crude....ahh....what's that word for when they seperate the 2 halves of your brain? Ah, whatever, you see my point.

[Marnath]

Lobotomy? Is that the word you mean? Yeah, that would be messy.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Lobotomy? Is that the word you mean? Yeah, that would be messy.

No, not a lobotomy. It's literally called a split-brain operation; cutting the corpus callosum.

[Marnath]

No, not a lobotomy. It's literally called a split-brain operation; cutting the corpus callosum.

Oh. What's a lobotomy then? Full brain removal?

[Crisis21]

Oh. What's a lobotomy then? Full brain removal?

No, it's something to do with the connections in the front area of your brain, but I never really learned exactly what the procedure involved. I do know that it is highly controversial for a great many good reasons.

Here's a link to the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy) if anyone is so inclined.

Edit: I've heard of the split brain operation. It is possible because the right and left halves of the brain are in fact two seperate organs with very little connecting tissue and can be seperated without lasting injury. It is a pretty severe operation nonetheless and only done in the case of a patient suffering from repeated seizures when no other treatment works. One of the lasting effects is that the two halves of the brain from that point onward operate independently of each other. I heard about one lady who had undergone this operation who repeatedly found herself getting dressed in two different outfits (her right hand dressing her one way while her left dressing her another essentially) at the same time without being fully aware that it was happening. It's a really freaky operation.

[herrhauptmann]

Didn't anyone else notice the most obvious non-core reference in the comic, possibly ever? Belkar talks about a Hexblade. I think this is about the first time when they actually mention something non-core... (Hexblade is from Complete Warrior)
During the O-chul interrogation they make reference to a magic 8 ball, and an 18th incarnum user.

You have that backwards. Normally Belkar has plot awesomeness, but for this instance Roy's plot awesomeness passes Belkar's DR/plot, and lets face it, Belkar's build sucks hard in actual practice.
Has it ever really been stated how many levels in ranger and barbarian Belkar has? If he's keeping them about equal he won't take any xp penalties. However, Belkar did get 7 attacks on Roy in that one panel. Back when he tried to fight MitD, he only had 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html). Perhaps they're getting story XP for progressing through the search, with bonus XP for good choices and plans, like heading to the city to find someone who just won 10k in a bet.

I think it was an art error with the severed leg. Previous panel the guy was already on the ground, but with closed eyes rather than X's. Trying to find where Belkar fought a ninja in the first book, but I'd swear the goblin died as soon as he took a limb.


Thjunk, hahahah

[brionl]

0th edition is definitely incorrect--as I recall the Basic D&D that everyone is referring to came out in 1980 or thereabouts, several years after 1st edition AD&D. It was essentially a different game with similar, albeit simplified, rules.

The Red Box Basic edition D&D came out in '76 or '77, since I'd been playing it for a couple years before I joined the US Navy in '79. Actually a combination of Collector's Edition (white box), Greyhawk, Blackmoore, Eldritch Wizardy and Basic D&D.
There was a collected/revised Basic D&D Omnibus published in 1980, with all the Red/Blue/etc colors previously mentioned in this thread.

[Marnath]

We can only confirm one level in barbarian for Belkar. He would have had two, but got level drained. They haven't leveled up since.

[The MunchKING]

Any chance you could explain this for those who don't have an exhaustive knowledge of US stand ups?

Carl Sagat hosted American's Funniest Home Videos for most of it's first run. While there were lots of supposeddly funny videos on there, by far the most common was people getting hurt, and nutshots were of course the most "funny" of those.

So it's a reference to everyone on AFHV loving movies about people getting hit in the nuts basically.

EDIT: BOB Sagat. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_funniest_home_videos) Dang it!!

[Kish]

I've heard basic dnd referred to as 1st ed and adnd as 2nd edition.

I find that hard to believe. You are aware that there were two editions of AD&D, as well as D&D-no-A, before 3ed came out, and that the two editions of AD&D were officially called First and Second Editions, aren't you?

Don't remember the ranks comment though I've played in all of the editions I listed here, though the level max that Belkar mentioned is a 2e reference.
It manifestly is not. Halflings were not restricted to a flat 8 levels in all classes in 2ed and, as you note yourself, there were no attack ranks. It's a very clear and unambiguous D&D-no-A reference.

(Just for clarity, I'll stop calling D&D-no-A 0ed, at least for now. Although Rich called (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) it that once; check the title of strip #218, and don't even think about saying the references there are actually to 2ed without looking up what the modules The Keep on the Borderlands and The Palace of the Silver Princess were published for.)

[Marnath]

Apparently I should be grateful I came to D&D in 3.5e, so I missed all this confusing edition nonsense.

[Crisis21]

(Just for clarity, I'll stop calling D&D-no-A 0ed, at least for now. Although Rich called (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) it that once; check the title of strip #218, and don't even think about saying the references there are actually to 2ed without looking up what the modules The Keep on the Borderlands and The Palace of the Silver Princess were published for.)

I always thought that it was an 'O' in the strip title, not a '0'. O standing for Old, making it 'Old Dungeons and Dragons'.

[binyamin20]

I agree that on open ground, Belkar stands no chance agains Roy; to have some possibility, he should have a ground with cover and places to hide (as with the fight with Miko).
Also, i think that probably Belkar is of level higher then Roy, given the long absence of our favourite fighter from the battlefield...

You forget, Killer, the Belkster lost a level to a wight here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html).

[binyamin20]

Hey! I'm no longer a pixie!!! Yay!!!

[Petrocorus]

I always thought that it was an 'O' in the strip title, not a '0'. O standing for Old, making it 'Old Dungeons and Dragons'.

I thought the same.

They were already non-weapon proficiency in D&D-no-A?

[AgentofOdd]

Not all that important, but any ideas who the guy with the fez in the last panel is? He doesn't really fit the armed guardes and loincloth slaves motif.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

Not all that important, but any ideas who the guy with the fez in the last panel is? He doesn't really fit the armed guardes and loincloth slaves motif.

Looks like the Oil Steward from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0736.html).

[Dervag]

Well, now we know what the D&D version of "bombed into the Stone Age" is...

[Cerlis]

has anyone stopped and considered maybe Belkar got stunned and suprised and knocked out cus he got unexpectedly hit in the head at full strength by a well trained warrior?

Can't say specifically but though hit-points do appear to be largely apparent in the comic(Multiple melee characters getting stabbed in the gut and it merely hurting alot) but i'd swear on my gaming thumbs that there has been plenty of people getting knocked out with one hit(without a sneak attack or stunning fist), unconcious, stunned or otherwise

[glowface]

...Unless I'm quite mistaken, wouldn't that mean that Belkar just gave a small nod to indicate their character levels to be around 15?
Checking the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (which was kind of a summary of the basic-expert-companion-master bxoed set series), it looks more like 14. Actually, attack rank A is gained together with level 8. Attack rank G is the 14th hypothetical level. (They are not called levels after the 8th).

But what is still unfair to halflings, that a character would be Attack Rang G if they have XP between 1,800,000 and 2,100,000. Even an elf could be attack rank G or more likely H with that, on the top of 10 real levels. And a dwarf would already be attack rank I or J with that (and that added to 12 actual levels).

Not to mention human characters. A magic-user with that amount of XP would be level 19-20; a fighter would be level 22-24; a thief would be level 22-25; while a cleric would be level 25-27.

Talk about racial discrimination.

[glowface]

I thought the same.

They were already non-weapon proficiency in D&D-no-A?

I think (not sure) oD&D usually refered to the original or old D&D, which was the version BEFORE the red-blue-black boxes. That version I've usually heard referred as basic d&d. (But that got after oD&D).
Actually, I believe, AD&D (later known as 1st edition) and basic D&D were published simultaneouly. Basic with players with a preference for the lighter rules, AD&D for players prefering the advanced rules. (At least, originally. Although with the full color spectrum published, including the immortal rules, basic D&D did not appear very rules-light).

Yup, checked wikipedia.
oD&D was 1974.
AD&D and basic D&D were both 1977.

And as for non-weapon proficiencies... I think they only appeared as such in 2nd edition AD&D (1989).

[Killer Angel]

If he's not really fighting, why is everyone else he hit laying on the ground, eh?

I mean that he wasn't really fighting with Roy, not with the others. It is possible, you know?


If he wasn't, why would Roy snap now in the face of all the other times Belkar has merely annoyed him instead of actually hitting him?

This is a good point, but it is also possible that Roy became angry for the sillyness of Belkar in that particular situation.

BTW: I know Roy is a fighter, etc, but to take down Belkar with a single hit without magic equipment, seems more a nice closing of the strip (from a narrative PoV), more then a believable D&D fight between high level character

[Mr. Snuggles]

We can only confirm one level in barbarian for Belkar. He would have had two, but got level drained. They haven't leveled up since.

We haven't SEEN any level-ups. Certainly they happened when the characters were offscreen, major plot bonus for reuniting the party, raising party leader, etc. I tend to assume OOTS is more like a MMORPG, where level is more tied to the passage of time than anything. Heck, even Xykon is probably gaining levels, to stay ahead of everyone else.

[St Fan]

They were already non-weapon proficiency in D&D-no-A?

Non-weapon proficiencies were introduced in AD&D 1st edition as part of non-core supplementary books, namely in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and the Oriental Adventures. They became part of the core game in AD&D 2nd edition.

Edit: Hey, I'm a Halfling in the Playground, too. Hope I can get past level 8.

[SoC175]

Also, at the time of his death Roy was the highest level good PC on the battlefield. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)
So, he could be two or more levels above Belkar, since Belkar takes a substantial xp penalty from his barbarian level(s?) Note that Belkar isn't a "good" NPC

[Querzis]

This is a good point, but it is also possible that Roy became angry for the sillyness of Belkar in that particular situation.

Its Roy. If he could get that angry at sillyness, he would have killed Elan a long time ago.


BTW: I know Roy is a fighter, etc, but to take down Belkar with a single hit without magic equipment, seems more a nice closing of the strip (from a narrative PoV), more then a believable D&D fight between high level character

Full power attack + critical. Perfectly possible by the rules. You know what isnt possible if we use the rules? That Belkar is a sexy shoeless god of war. He got the crappiest built of all times, its almost as if he tried to only take the worst decision possible. If someone got plot power, its Belkar, not Roy.

But yeah, as its been said before, the comic reflect real fighting more then D&D fighting most of the time. It woudnt even matter if this wasnt possible in D&D, go ask the strongest man you can find to hit you in the face with a baseball bat. I know I'm just repeating what Jonesthespy said here but it seems you havent read it the first time.

[ken-do-nim]

As someone who has an active Rules Cyclopedia campaign, I loved this strip! Clearly, Roy used the smash maneuver, not a power attack.

(Btw, I've turned the attack ranks into levels anyway)

[Blaznak]

Hee hee. I remember those wacky class restriction rules. Too funny.

[Adeptus]

Roy's temper gets the better of him again. :roy:

Also... Teamwork! :belkar:

[Dilvish]

I started with D&D in 7th or 8th grade, so 1979 or 1980? My game was a boxed set with the blue cover rulebook and the Descent into the Unknown adventure. I think Descent into the Unknown was that name. I know it wasn't Keep on the Borderlands, which was the coolest thing in the world to me when I saw it. I don't remember the color of the box, I no longer have the box or the dice.

The rulebook went up to 3rd level for characters. Elves, halflings, and dwarves were their own classes. There was an adventure in the back of the rulebook. I still use that adventure from time to time.

[Killer Angel]

Full power attack + critical. Perfectly possible by the rules.


Without magic, neither charge, you don't deliver so much anyway.



But yeah, as its been said before, the comic reflect real fighting more then D&D fighting most of the time. It woudnt even matter if this wasnt possible in D&D, go ask the strongest man you can find to hit you in the face with a baseball bat. I know I'm just repeating what Jonesthespy said here but it seems you havent read it the first time.

I didn't read it, so thanks.
BTW, in the end I agree with you, and I don't doubt that Roy is a meleer far stronger then Belkar, especially on open field.

[Cvitnef]

Without magic, neither charge, you don't deliver so much anyway.


Well, than i.e. what about the little trick Belkar done in 281?

[Gray Mage]

Well, than i.e. what about the little trick Belkar done in 281?

He hit her non-lethally, and when your non-lethal damage reaches your current HP you fall unconscious.

[SoC175]

Without magic, neither charge, you don't deliver so much anyway. Assuming 2d6 for the wooden sword (generously assuming it does as much as a real greatsword just automatically being non-lethal damage), +7 from Str (20 Str without magical aid, x1.5 for two-handed weapon), +4 from feats (assuming the wooden greatsword counts as a greatsword for feats) and +32 for power attack (assuming a 16th level Roy with all his BAB put into it and x2 for two-handed weapon) that makes 2d6+43 ~ 50 damage.

So x2 because of a crit that's 100 damage.

Assuming a 16th level Belkar, ranger15/barbarian1 (the exact split between ranger and barbarian doesn't matter much, it's just 2hp per level) that's

from HD: 8+14*4.5+6.5 ~ 77 hp just from hit dice

Thus if Belkar has at least 14 Con (+16 * x 2hp) a crit from Roy should not be enough to drop him outright.

Well, than i.e. what about the little trick Belkar done in 281? She wasn't at full hp anymore

But yeah, as its been said before, the comic reflect real fighting more then D&D fighting most of the time. I have to disagree with this. It's just that most fighting in the last time was done against enemies so much weaker (1 HD azurite soldiers and hobgoblins, low-level rogues, ...) that their quick deaths resembled real fighting. Once two equally leveled opponents meet it's clearly the non-realistic D&D fighting (e.g. the many hits Miko scored against Hinjo, the many hits the ghosts scored against Redcloak and Xykon, .....

go ask the strongest man you can find to hit you in the face with a baseball bat. I know I'm just repeating what Jonesthespy said here but it seems you havent read it the first time. Well, if I could surive only half what Belkar can survice due to having hitpoints, the hit from the strongest man would only be a minor inconvenience either. Unless I asked him to hit me just after I impressed my friend with surviving being imerged in lava for 12 seconds or having just jumped from the empire state building without breaking a single bone (20d6 damage in either case)

[Petrocorus]

And as for non-weapon proficiencies... I think they only appeared as such in 2nd edition AD&D (1989).
That's what i thought, so we have a little inconsistency in the #218 about the rules. Or the rogue played module from basic with AD&D 2ed.

Nevermind, anyway.



Edit: Hey, I'm a Halfling in the Playground, too. Hope I can get past level 8.

No, you'll not level up, you will mutate. Into a dwarf!:smalltongue:


About the level limitation, i personnally never understood why non-humans got them.
Why an Elf cannot become a so good wizard as a Human?
That has always bugged me.

[Shale]

Ah, but even a 50-HP attack (maxed-out rolls, non-crit) hits the massive damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage) threshold. I know I've played with the houserule that 50 HP of nonlethal damage prompts a fort save to stay upright.

[MarkusWolfe]

No, it's something to do with the connections in the front area of your brain, but I never really learned exactly what the procedure involved. I do know that it is highly controversial for a great many good reasons.

Here's a link to the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy) if anyone is so inclined.

Edit: I've heard of the split brain operation. It is possible because the right and left halves of the brain are in fact two seperate organs with very little connecting tissue and can be seperated without lasting injury. It is a pretty severe operation nonetheless and only done in the case of a patient suffering from repeated seizures when no other treatment works. One of the lasting effects is that the two halves of the brain from that point onward operate independently of each other. I heard about one lady who had undergone this operation who repeatedly found herself getting dressed in two different outfits (her right hand dressing her one way while her left dressing her another essentially) at the same time without being fully aware that it was happening. It's a really freaky operation.

But if it increase's Belkar's dual wielding skills, it just might be worth it.

[Mutant Sheep]

Truth be told, if he was wielding the Greenhilt, Belkar's skull would've split and Roy would have performed a crude....ahh....what's that word for when they seperate the 2 halves of your brain? Ah, whatever, you see my point.
If Belkar wasn't wearing sandals, everyone in the area would be dead. :belkar: sexy SHOELESS god of war
it's not fair to make him wear something on his feet.

[Kish]

About the level limitation, i personnally never understood why non-humans got them.
Why an Elf cannot become a so good wizard as a Human?
That has always bugged me.
Because Gary Gygax wanted the demihumans to be supporting characters in a world of human heroes. He was quite up-front about it.

[Crisis21]

But if it increase's Belkar's dual wielding skills, it just might be worth it.

The idea of Belkar with, essentially, two brains that are operating simultaneously and independently without consultation from the other is, frankly, too scary to contemplate.

:haley:: :smalleek: "Belkar! Why did you just stab that guy?"

:belkar:: :smallconfused: "What are you talking about? I didn't stab anyone."

:vaarsuvius:: :smallsigh: "I believe that you should now take the time to look behind you at the actions your left arm is currently engaged in performing."

:belkar:: *Looks over to where his left arm is still stabbing some random dead guy.* :smalleek:


Because Gary Gygax wanted the demihumans to be supporting characters in a world of human heroes. He was quite up-front about it.

My, admittedly limited, understanding of the Basic rules is that they were Arneson's creation where AD&D rules were Gygax's after they went their separate ways.

[Crisis21]

Oops. Please ignore my double post.:smallredface:

[Petrocorus]

Because Gary Gygax wanted the demihumans to be supporting characters in a world of human heroes. He was quite up-front about it.

I didn't know this.
Has never notice that some players wanted to play non-human heroes?
And btw, i never like the word "demihuman" neither.

[Marnath]

We haven't SEEN any level-ups. Certainly they happened when the characters were offscreen, major plot bonus for reuniting the party, raising party leader, etc. I tend to assume OOTS is more like a MMORPG, where level is more tied to the passage of time than anything. Heck, even Xykon is probably gaining levels, to stay ahead of everyone else.

Not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) Quite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html) True. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html)

[Prospekt]

Assuming 2d6 for the wooden sword (generously assuming it does as much as a real greatsword just automatically being non-lethal damage)

I seriously doubt it would be a greatsword just to be convenient... It looks more to be a standard 1d8 longsword instead.

I'm assuming that Roy and half-dragon/orc will fight immediately for that special game in honor of Elan, since it's not the weekend yet.

[sasafrazz]

belkar got owned :) :thog:

[Gd8908]

I seriously believe we've been waiting for that for way too long... oh, yes.... sooo satisfying...:smallbiggrin:

[St Fan]

About the level limitation, i personnally never understood why non-humans got them.
Why an Elf cannot become a so good wizard as a Human?
That has always bugged me.

It was supposed to be an attempt at game balance, to compensate the special advantages demihumans got, especially the possibility to multiclass. Not necessarily a very good balancing, since it mostly depends on the GM whether the campaigns are long enough to reach maximum level, or focus more on low-level game.

Though it makes some modicum of sense that multi-class characters couldn't get as good as a character focused one a single class.

As for elves not mastering the highest levels of magic, I've read some attempted justification about it (in the Complete Book of Elves, I think). To summarize, the most powerful spells are straining for the caster, and with their lower constitution compared to humans, elves are disadvantaged despite their otherwise great affinity to magic. There were some non-core wizard kits that disallowed the use of high-level spells, and generally in turn elves and demi-elves could ignore their race's usual level limitations with those.

[derfenrirwolv]

It would seem to me that Roy got himself upgraded to a Pathfinder Fighter, with some serious critical feats working for him.

It seems like the whole OOTS works on pathfinder. Fighters are useful passed 9th level, and concentration checks can be missed.

[herrhauptmann]

The idea of Belkar with, essentially, two brains that are operating simultaneously and independently without consultation from the other is, frankly, too scary to contemplate.
:haley:: :smalleek: "Belkar! Why did you just stab that guy?"
:belkar:: :smallconfused: "What are you talking about? I didn't stab anyone."
:vaarsuvius:: :smallsigh: "I believe that you should now take the time to look behind you at the actions your left arm is currently engaged in performing."
:belkar:: *Looks over to where his left arm is still stabbing some random dead guy.* :smalleek:


You realize if you split his brain in two, BOTH devils (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) will get to act as they see fit. He doesn't have an angel and a devil like most people.

I've been assuming that everyone has been leveling up offscreen. How many times has it been stated?
-Once in the dungeon. Everyone.
-Once after the dungeon (Belkar barely made it). Everyone
-Elan leveled after the cliffport fiasco to Dashing swordsman (presumably everyone else was close to leveling). But he probably got story XP for the training montage.
-Belkar gets a level fighting wights (possibly made his fort save). He had probably been falling behind because he was only gaining story XP, and sometimes fighting stronger undead. Undead which Haley could barely touch (no sneak attack), so she spent a lot of time with low level goblinoids, and might have been actually leveled slower than Belkar.
-Elan, Durkon and V spent all that time fighting "aquatics all time favorites", so they might've pulled even farther ahead of Haley.
-Elan (and Durkon) leveled right before they met up with Haley (Elan hit bard 13)

[Weiser_Cain]

Good, I was afraid he was going to make Belkar tougher than Roy.

[Knaight]

Art error (I hope) in panel 5: Belkar managed to chop the redhead's leg off.

"If you can't kill someone with a piece of wood, you should get out of the killing business."

[Crisis21]

You realize if you split his brain in two, BOTH devils (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) will get to act as they see fit. He doesn't have an angel and a devil like most people.

Why do you think the idea scares me?

[DragonRook13]

Also, at the time of his death Roy was the highest level good PC on the battlefield. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)


belkar is a chaotic evil character, no?:smallconfused:

[ken-do-nim]

My, admittedly limited, understanding of the Basic rules is that they were Arneson's creation where AD&D rules were Gygax's after they went their separate ways.

Nah, it's just that Arneson got royalties from the D&D line, but not the AD&D line. Arneson published his rules in his own competing system Adventures in Fantasy, but it wasn't very popular. It's an entirely skill-based system from what I understand.

[Marnath]

belkar is a chaotic evil character, no?:smallconfused:

Yeah, so? He got level drained once, and has been taking xp penalties for a while. He'd still be lower level than Roy at this stage of the comic.

[JonestheSpy]

It was supposed to be an attempt at game balance, to compensate the special advantages demihumans got, especially the possibility to multiclass. Not necessarily a very good balancing, since it mostly depends on the GM whether the campaigns are long enough to reach maximum level, or focus more on low-level game.


It's also important to remember that Gygax was specifically attempting to create a simulation of the great heroic fantasy novels and stories that existed up to that time, and in almost all of them the main characters were human (or almost human such as Elric). The obvious exception are Tolkien's works, but even in those the hobbits are nowhere near the most powerful characters, and the uber-powerful Elves are long gone creature of myth and legend.

This makes sense when you think of the nature of classic fantasy - the reader-identification figure/protagonist is like us, and the non-humans are the Other, reflections of the good, bad, and weird in our own collective unconscious. In practical terms, that means the demi-humans tend to be either advisors (Elrond) or sidekicks (Hugi the gnome from Three Hearts and Three Lions, Gimli and Legolas, etc). If the creature of myth becomes the protagonist then you really have to get in their head, make them comprehensible despite being alien, and now you're more in the territory of science fiction than fantasy.

But as St. Fan points out, it wrecks hell with long-term game balance. Demihumans were either loaded up with advantages in early stages, or totally outclassed at the high levels, with a thin margin of evenness the in mid-range.

[factotum]

"Ability to multiclass" doesn't apply to the Basic set, though--as already mentioned, a particular race was always effectively the same class in that (e.g. Elves always being a sort of fighter/mage combo).

[Cerlis]

Yeah, so? He got level drained once, and has been taking xp penalties for a while. He'd still be lower level than Roy at this stage of the comic.


His point is that "You where the highest level good character on the field" doesnt mean Roy was higher level than belkar, since belkar isnt good. Its like saying Orange is a better fruit than apples cus oranges have more orange flesh

Further more, belkar maaaay have lost that lvl do to the wight (assuming he failed his fortitude save, which i belive there is no proof he did), but Roy died, and neglected to gain any Xp till like...now. So hypothetically if Roy and Belkar where the same level they would be the same level if Belkar failed his fort save, Belkar would be higher level if he succeeded. And possibly two levels higher if he succeeded on his fortitude save and gained enough experience to level again.

Not saying he is. And it all doesnt matter anyways. Since you'd be crazy to think he'd prevent all the possible actions characters could have if you couldnt daze or knock out someone in the story with a swift blow to the head simply because the character is suppose to have 100 hp and the makeshift weapon does d8 dmg or whatever.

Sorry but I think that if someone thinks it was simply more than a "Roy hit belkar in the head really hard and he's dazed, hit yourself with a baseball bat and you'll see why"then ur nuts.

[Tundar]

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Saget was a sub par comedian nut joke.

[Castamir]

You forget, Killer, the Belkster lost a level to a wight here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html).
He lost the level only if he neither had access to a scroll of restoration (the Resistance has plenty of scrolls) nor made his save 24 hours later. And his Fort saves are pretty good.

[ken-do-nim]

It's also important to remember that Gygax was specifically attempting to create a simulation of the great heroic fantasy novels and stories that existed up to that time, and in almost all of them the main characters were human (or almost human such as Elric). The obvious exception are Tolkien's works, but even in those the hobbits are nowhere near the most powerful characters, and the uber-powerful Elves are long gone creature of myth and legend.

This makes sense when you think of the nature of classic fantasy - the reader-identification figure/protagonist is like us, and the non-humans are the Other, reflections of the good, bad, and weird in our own collective unconscious. In practical terms, that means the demi-humans tend to be either advisors (Elrond) or sidekicks (Hugi the gnome from Three Hearts and Three Lions, Gimli and Legolas, etc). If the creature of myth becomes the protagonist then you really have to get in their head, make them comprehensible despite being alien, and now you're more in the territory of science fiction than fantasy.

But as St. Fan points out, it wrecks hell with long-term game balance. Demihumans were either loaded up with advantages in early stages, or totally outclassed at the high levels, with a thin margin of evenness the in mid-range.

The sad part is that level limits are useful in original D&D and AD&D where race and class are separated, but completely unnecessary in the Basic line because each race has a separate xp chart which already provides the game balance, as well as other different stats (like d6 hit dice for halflings vs d8 hit dice for human fighters).

[The Pilgrim]

About the level limitation, i personnally never understood why non-humans got them.
Why an Elf cannot become a so good wizard as a Human?
That has always bugged me.

The meta-game logic has already been pointed out: It was a sorry attemp at game balance.

Prior to 3rd Edition, only "demihumans" could multiclass. And multiclassing prior to 3rd Edition meant that with the same amount of PX, a 10th Level Human Fighter was more or less equivalent to a 8th Level Fighter-Wizard Elf (I don't have the old PX tables at hand, but it was something like this) so the Elf lagged two levels of fighter behind, but had 8 full wizard levels on.

Humans had some compensation with Dual Classing, but it worked in a different way, and you could do it only once in your character's career. With dual classing your character could no longer level up in it's original class, ever, and it could NOT use ANY SINGLE skill related to it (including magic, combat proficency or rogue skills) until it had won more levels in it's second class than it had in it's first (and if you did, you wouldn't win any PX for that encounter).

...

The "philosophical" logic about the level limitation was something like this: Demihumans were not as focused ans Humans, so they couldn't devote their whole (and longer) life to a single thing. Hence their tendency to spread in multiclassing. So when an Elf has reached a certain level in wizard, he is still young, his mind is bored about it, and he is thinking about trying something new and exciting like swordplay. On the other hand, even the most unfocused human would feel too old to try a new profession by that time; Since they have such short lifespans, humans stick to what they have already learnt. Human Dual-Classing meants that you decide to change your career short after begining it, while still young, but you can only do it once (next time you will be supposed to bee too old to do it) and you have to change ways for real.

...

Finally, the "game concept" logic has been pointed, too. Demihumans were thought as supporting characters, so they are "proficent in many things but the best in nothing". They can cover for a lot of minor gaps, but when time for true heroics arises, they don't shine as much as an human Hero.

[factotum]

Humans had some compensation with Dual Classing, but it worked in a different way, and you could do it only once in your character's career.

As I recall, the method for becoming a Bard in 2e was to level up as a fighter, then dual-class to mage, then dual-class to thief--I may have got the order wrong, but it definitely required you to dual-class to three different classes.

[Swordpriest]

That's quite a process. :smallwink: Elan's lucky that they converted to 3rd edition in the first strip, then.... :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

That's quite a process. :smallwink: Elan's lucky that they converted to 3rd edition in the first strip, then.... :smallbiggrin:

Actually, they converted to 3.5.

The complicated nature of becoming a pre-3rd ed bard is brought up in this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0222.html

[LuisDantas]

That's quite a process. :smallwink: Elan's lucky that they converted to 3rd edition in the first strip, then.... :smallbiggrin:

It's a nitpick, but Elan and the rest of the Order are implied to have converted from 3.0 to 3.5 in the first strip.

But yeah, it seems like quite a lot of trouble to be a Bard by dual-classing.

[Swordpriest]

It's a nitpick, but Elan and the rest of the Order are implied to have converted from 3.0 to 3.5 in the first strip.

But yeah, it seems like quite a lot of trouble to be a Bard by dual-classing.

Especially dual-classing three times. :smallbiggrin:

[St Fan]

As I recall, the method for becoming a Bard in 2e was to level up as a fighter, then dual-class to mage, then dual-class to thief--I may have got the order wrong, but it definitely required you to dual-class to three different classes.

That wasn't in 2nd edition but in the first. Bards in 2nd edition are a regular class of Rogue. The 1st edition bard was an optionnal class, and frankly so complex that I doubt many have attempted it. It is more or less the inspiration for Prestige Classes in 3rd edition, though.

[the_tick_rules]

Hmm who is that avatar st fan, it looks familar. Yeah leveling was a mess back then wasn't it?

[Petrocorus]

That wasn't in 2nd edition but in the first. Bards in 2nd edition are a regular class of Rogue. The 1st edition bard was an optionnal class, and frankly so complex that I doubt many have attempted it. It is more or less the inspiration for Prestige Classes in 3rd edition, though.

The good side of this 1st ed Bard is that they were over-full of HP. And tend to be powerful once the process was done.

[berrew]

The Red Box Basic edition D&D came out in '76 or '77, since I'd been playing it for a couple years before I joined the US Navy in '79. Actually a combination of Collector's Edition (white box), Greyhawk, Blackmoore, Eldritch Wizardy and Basic D&D.
There was a collected/revised Basic D&D Omnibus published in 1980, with all the Red/Blue/etc colors previously mentioned in this thread.

Thanks for that. I was wondering how this all fit in with my white-box/Greyhawk/Blackmoore books that my brother - err... burned in a fit of evangelical Christianity while I was in college (nothing against evangelical Christianity - but lots against burning *my* D&D rules :)). By then I had moved on to the AD&D books released in 1978-9 - but I rather miss losing those mementos from my teenage years.

[Kish]

As I recall, the method for becoming a Bard in 2e was to level up as a fighter, then dual-class to mage, then dual-class to thief--I may have got the order wrong, but it definitely required you to dual-class to three different classes.
Yes, there was actually no limit on the number of times a human could dual-class. The humor module, Castle Greyhawk, had a main villain who was a human magic-user/thief/illusionist, having started his career as a magic-user and dual-classed twice.

(And yes, "magic-user" and "illusionist" were separate classes in 1ed.)

[JonestheSpy]

Thanks for that. I was wondering how this all fit in with my white-box/Greyhawk/Blackmoore books that my brother - err... burned in a fit of evangelical Christianity while I was in college (nothing against evangelical Christianity - but lots against burning *my* D&D rules :)). By then I had moved on to the AD&D books released in 1978-9 - but I rather miss losing those mementos from my teenage years.

At the very least you should find out how much a mint set of the original rules would cost on Ebay or something, and present your brother with a bill for damages.

[St Fan]

Hmm who is that avatar st fan, it looks familar.

Master Happôsai (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=Happosai) from Ranma ½, of course.

[brionl]

-Elan, Durkon and V spent all that time fighting "aquatics all time favorites", so they might've pulled even farther ahead of Haley.


But they weren't getting any exp for most of them, because the challenge rating was too low. Remember Vaarsuvius saying "Do not disturb me for anything with a CR lower than 11" in strip 508?

[malloyd]

Yup, checked wikipedia.
oD&D was 1974.
AD&D and basic D&D were both 1977.

Edition numbers are actually rather scrambled. The earliest version of Dungeons and Dragons (rather than Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) I still have is the sky blue dragon booklet, given on it's title page as Dungeons and Dragons. 3rd Edition, December 1979.



And as for non-weapon proficiencies... I think they only appeared as such in 2nd edition AD&D (1989).

AD&D 1e. In _Official Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (R) Oriental Adventures_ copyright 1985. Skills start showing up in the D&D line about the same time - they were in the Adventurer's Guide for one of the editions around then, but the oldest thing I still have to pull a date from is Minrothad Guilds 1988.

[monomer]

I didn't know this.
Has never notice that some players wanted to play non-human heroes?
And btw, i never like the word "demihuman" neither.

Elves were also a fair bit more powerful than everyone else. I don't have my Basic set anymore, but if I remember correctly, Elves were basically dual-class fighter-mages, who cast arcane spells but could wear light (medium maybe?) armor.

They were penalized in that they required much higher XP per level (Lvl 2 Fighter = 2000 XP, Lvl 2 Mage = 2500 XP, and Lvl 2 Elf = 5000 XP or so).

[DougTheHead]

Hmmm... now that I'm looking at the strip again, I don't think Roy and the half-dragon are fighting in the first round. The way the captain of the guard is talking about "slots" seems to be equivalent to "seeds" in the NCAA tournament- Roy is the top seed, the blue dragon is the second seed, and so they're placed at opposite ends of their quadrant, and won't meet until the quarterfinals, or the finals, if this is one huge bracket with no separate divisions. Of course, this leads me to wonder why two rookies are being placed at the top of the tournament rankings... maybe gladiators in the Empire of Blood that regularly fight generally have very short careers? I can't exactly see Tarquin giving out Freedom Swords to particularly entertaining gladiators when he could just have them fight until they died.

[brionl]

According to the poster, Prisoners and Gladiators are seperate cases. It showed the gladiator as pretty well armored, and the prisoner as mostly un-armored. So if it's P vs G for the first rounds, most of the casualties will probably be on the P side.
Plus, pro G vs pro G fights historically weren't to the death most of the time.

[The Pilgrim]

As I recall, the method for becoming a Bard in 2e was to level up as a fighter, then dual-class to mage, then dual-class to thief--I may have got the order wrong, but it definitely required you to dual-class to three different classes.

Fighter, Thief and Druid, if my memory serves. :smallsmile:

That was in AD&D 1st edition. And now that you mention it, the Dual-Class rules I was citing were those of AD&D 2nd Edition (when the Bard was turned into a regular class). Looks like I'll have to check my old rulebooks.

[ken-do-nim]

As I recall, the method for becoming a Bard in 2e was to level up as a fighter, then dual-class to mage, then dual-class to thief--I may have got the order wrong, but it definitely required you to dual-class to three different classes.

2E bards are a regular start-from-first character class.

1E player's handbook bards start as a fighter, usually go up to 7th level, switch to thief, usually go up to 5th, then start again as a bard.

1E Best of Dragon vol. III offers a start-from-first bard that is great. Their spells are more illusionist then druidic, and are the true progenitor of the 3E bard.

[RobertFisher]

W00t! A classic D&D reference and a fairly obscure one at that. I liked the Bob Saget reference too.


Now I'm feeling nostalgic for some Basic D&D.

Sadly, all that I have left are the dice and the cover to the red book.

Download Labyrinth Lord (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html) or Basic Fantasy (http://www.basicfantasy.org/).


Would the chainmail series count as edition 0? Think those are the first books that counted as dnd. I've heard basic dnd referred to as 1st ed and adnd as 2nd edition. Don't remember the ranks comment though I've played in all of the editions I listed here, though the level max that Belkar mentioned is a 2e reference.

Unfortunately, there is no consistent nomenclature here. Even TSR wasn’t consistent back-in-the-day. Here are the terms I use (http://web.fisher.cx/robert/rpg/dnd-id/) (a bit out-of-date, though) But remember that that is just what I call them. Not to mention that context is important. Sometimes you’re talking about a superset of my divisions; sometimes you need finer divisions.


It was supposed to be an attempt at game balance, to compensate the special advantages demihumans got, especially the possibility to multiclass.

The impression I got from Gary was that—for him—it was more about world balance than game balance. If elves live so much longer and don’t have such limits, then they’d clearly be the ones in control. Gary wanted humans to be dominant.

Personally, I’m not sure that logic holds, and I’ve never cared for the rule, but that is my understanding of why he included it.

[DeepChild]

"How about nut shots?" Thjunk!

LOL

[Sebastrd]

That was amazingly satisfying.

[rewinn]

Great little details in Panel 5 (2nd row right):
* Belkar acquired 2nd weapon from Nutshot Victim
* NV sitting and clutching his injury (?who says stick art can't be expressive?)
* Ganji (in panel 1 on the far side of his big buddy from Roy) has moved up next to Roy, setting up his chance for revenge in Panel 6 (3rd row left)

I also liked Panel 7 (3rd row center): Belkar either doesn't remember or care about Ganji's name.

Panel 8-9: From a martial standpoint (not the same as a game-rules standpoint) the transition makes sense. In panel 8, trusting just a little too much in Roy's good nature, Belkar has unwisely turned his back on Roy's weapon while placing putting both of his weapons in no position to block. Roy has a clear shot to Belkar's head while Roy's body is between Belkar's weapons and Roy's. This may have been "only" for artistic purposes but it also makes sense from a martial standpoint, in that the natural outcome would be a very powerful strike against which Belkar would have little defense.

While Roy defeated his plan by losing his temper, Belkar defeated himself by going farther than he needed to. The actual hit may not be important to him (he's an adventurer, he's been hit before) but losing top spot in the gladitorial contest but really hurt.

[Marnath]

While Roy defeated his plan by losing his temper, Belkar defeated himself by going farther than he needed to. The actual hit may not be important to him (he's an adventurer, he's been hit before) but losing top spot in the gladitorial contest but really hurt.

I agree, I think Belkar did actually mean to make Roy look mediocre, I don't think his plan was to get Roy in a match.

[Red XIV]

I agree, I think Belkar did actually mean to make Roy look mediocre, I don't think his plan was to get Roy in a match.
Of course not. His plan was clearly to get himself in a match, so he could kick more ass (and kill people).

[abbott.e]

And Belkar's clearly not really injured, as we can see from the broad mark on his face that Roy was using the flat of his (wooden) sword, and when I was playing D&D 30 odd years ago, that meant he was subduing him, so Belkar wasn't really losing HP, just temporarily taken from him until he was knocked down and subdued. He would still have his full HP when he came round.

[keybounce]

Alright, with all this talk of 2nd edition, 1st edition, etc, what would you call three books + greyhawk + blackmoor + Eldrich Wizardry?

(I hope I have those names correct; it's been over 20 years ...)

[factotum]

Three books meaning Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual? First edition AD&D, I think. Second edition had the ring binder for the monsters, didn't it?

[Alex Warlorn]

It's a Basic D&D rules joke. Races other than humans could only reach certain levels, and I'm guessing the attack rank fits in with that. Bear in mind, this arena seems to mess with people's perception of what edition/century they're in.

I'm worried about Roy now, though. Roy does seem to be a competent high-level (14-15) fighter, but the fact remains that he's just a fighter. This gives Enor an advantage, even with his high LA.

He's also dumber than mud and clearly relies on lizard boy to tell him what to do in battle, who I doubt will be watching this fight to give instructions. It's time Roy proved that big brain of his wasn't a wasted stat.

[Swordpriest]

Three books meaning Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual? First edition AD&D, I think. Second edition had the ring binder for the monsters, didn't it?

It had just about everything -- Monster Manual books, ring binders, and a big fat compendium as well.

[Red XIV]

He's also dumber than mud and clearly relies on lizard boy to tell him what to do in battle, who I doubt will be watching this fight to give instructions. It's time Roy proved that big brain of his wasn't a wasted stat.
Not to mention, Roy isn't likely to get caught by surprise with the breath attack a second time. And even after the first time when he did get caught off guard, he proceeded to kick Enor's butt bare-handed. Granted, Roy was wearing a Belt of Giant Strength at the time, but in the arena they'll give him a sword. And he'll be up against somebody who was already his enemy, and thus have less reason to hold back than he would if he were fighting a random prisoner.

[pjackson]

Yup, checked wikipedia.
oD&D was 1974.
AD&D and basic D&D were both 1977.

Yes, but that was blue book basic, not the red box version.

[berrew]

Three books meaning Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual? First edition AD&D, I think. Second edition had the ring binder for the monsters, didn't it?

The three books he is referring to came in the white box set. They were "Men & Magic", "Monsters & Treasure" and "Underworld Adventures".

In addition to those 3 books, there were some supplemental books with canned adventures and additional info. Those were "Greyhawk", "Blackmoor" and "Eldritch Wizardry", and "Gods, Demigods and Heroes" (which I seem to remember was hurriedly modified, as it used copyrighted info from some fantasy settings).


EDIT:

Someone has compiled all this info at http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html

and I see that some of my info was a bit off, but I'll leave it alone as I am too lazy to reword the original post :)

And to answer JonesTheSpy - I see on that website that my originals (which must have been 4th ed) would be worth hundreds of dollars, even used as they would be. ugh :).

[The Pilgrim]

And Belkar's clearly not really injured, as we can see from the broad mark on his face that Roy was using the flat of his (wooden) sword, and when I was playing D&D 30 odd years ago, that meant he was subduing him, so Belkar wasn't really losing HP, just temporarily taken from him until he was knocked down and subdued. He would still have his full HP when he came round.

So, when Belkar realizes Roy could kill him, he will willingly become his servant and Roy will be able to sell him for a lot of GP's

(Wasn't that what you were supposed to do with Dragons back then?)

[Silverraptor]

I just want to say, (Even though I'm way late on saying this) that now, I really do want Belkar to die.:smallmad:

[JonestheSpy]

And to answer JonesTheSpy - I see on that website that my originals (which must have been 4th ed) would be worth hundreds of dollars, even used as they would be. ugh :).

I hope your brother has a good job - ka-ching!!

[abbott.e]

So, when Belkar realizes Roy could kill him, he will willingly become his servant and Roy will be able to sell him for a lot of GP's

(Wasn't that what you were supposed to do with Dragons back then?)

We used to fireball them and then eat them.Totally horrified the DM, and set a certain tone for the next few years gaming.

[RobertFisher]

Alright, with all this talk of 2nd edition, 1st edition, etc, what would you call three books + greyhawk + blackmoor + Eldrich Wizardry?

I might call it “oD&D+”. Assuming I want to specifically distinguish it from just the three little booklets without the supplements.

Some people use “OD&D” to mean all non-advanced, pre-2000 D&D, though. (For which I tend to use the term “classic D&D”.) So to a general audience, I’d probably be more long-winded, much like you said it. e.g. The original three booklets plus the supplements.

Some people have taken to calling the original game “0e” (zeroth edition).

[Particle_Man]

The demi human level limits in B/X D&D made more sense when the Basic/Expert rules were just that -- without the addition of significant rules (I think there was a half-page devoted to the idea in the Moldvay/Cook Expert rules, but just "you could try this" stuff) for character play above 14th level, the demi human level limits of 8th, 10th and 12th were fairly close. Ok, halflings still got burned, but not as badly (name level wasn't that far off for the other classes, for example, so the hit point difference wouldn't be as great. As for high level cleric or magic-user spells . . . LOOK OVER THERE A MONKEY).

And one weird note on "Dual Classing" in 1st ed AD&D. There was a way to get half-elves (as well as humans, not instead of them) to do it, if they went the optional Bard route (fighter, then thief, then bard) and they didn't even need as high stats as regular dual-classers. But oh, the hit points! You could really "tank" as a bard. :)

Someday I would like to try a 1st ed AD&D dual-class 13th level Assassin/14th level Illusionist (a deep, deep, *deep* cover agent). But probably that will not happen. Sigh.

Elves in B/X could wear any armour and use any weapon. Their HD was between fighter and magic-user. Their experience point advancement was slow though.

Elven fighter/magic-users in AD&D 1st ed could maybe use elven chain while casting spells, but otherwise could not wear armour, IIRC.

[Maryring]

And from that we've learned that, all in all, the rules are simpler now.

[factotum]

Ok, halflings still got burned, but not as badly (name level wasn't that far off for the other classes, for example, so the hit point difference wouldn't be as great. As for high level cleric or magic-user spells . . . LOOK OVER THERE A MONKEY).


You're still talking like a Basic/Expert halfling could cast spells. They couldn't. Demihumans couldn't have classes in those rules--their race WAS their class, so a Halfling was something similar to a Fighter/Thief and could never be anything else. The only demihuman race for whom spellcasting was an issue were Elves, IIRC.

[St Fan]

And from that we've learned that, all in all, the rules are simpler now.

Some parts of the rules necessarily got simpler as the edition is more recent, since a lot of the old rules, that work badly when thoroughly tried out, are discarded. It's all a matter of learning from experience and natural selection.

Of course, even recent editions seems to suffer from the same problem that plagued the previous ones: too many non-core, supplementary material added bit by bit, with nobody able to agree on which one to use and which to discard.

[an_alien]

Finally read all of the panels.

Can anyone explain to me what is the comic schedule?

[Kish]

Random. In practice, it varies dependent on the author's health, with strips often coming out in clumps.