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View Full Version : Building the TriForce Wielders [3.5, Zelda Spoilers]



NineThePuma
2010-09-24, 11:30 PM
First, I added the spoiler bit because I don't want to ruin certain plot points for (admittedly older) games in the series.

Ergo, here's the challenge: Make The Legendary Three.

Link should be using his signature longsword, composite longbow, boomerang, and be particularly adept at soloing. Master Sword stats should probably be something like +5 Holy Axiomatic Bane (Evil Outsider) long sword.

Ganondorf Dragmire should be capable of gishy, mixing spell and sword. If Tenser's Tranformation exists in 3.5, he wants. Note that I don't care what magic he uses so long as he can Gish effectively.

Zelda needs to take into account her magical abilities and either stealth or piracy. Alternately, a combination of stealthy piracy is acceptable.


Home brew is allowed, but should not create new mechanics for the system.

the_archduke
2010-09-24, 11:36 PM
For Link look at Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10.

The spirit guide can be his fairy companion.

Iron Heart has Steel Wind/Mithral Tornado/Adamantine Hurricane to simulate his sword-spin move.

I'm sure there is more, but that is what I'd do.

NineThePuma
2010-09-24, 11:39 PM
What was Eternal Blade again? =\

dgnslyr
2010-09-24, 11:48 PM
I found a build (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Hero_of_Time_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29) some time ago that was supposed to mimic Link; it was a Warblade/Eternal Blade, as suggested previously, with a dip into Factotum and Fighter in it, IIRC. Both Warblade and Eternal Blade are in Tome of Battle, and Factotum is in Dungeonscape, I think. I haven't actually tried using it, but I liked the concept and it's hard to go wrong with Warblade/Eternal Blade.

Thane of Fife
2010-09-25, 12:02 AM
To do it very simply:

Ganondorf: Probably a Fighter/Sorcerer, say 4/4 -ish. His fighter feats are mostly devoted to TWFing, and as far as spells go he notably has Levitate and some homebrew attack spells. The Triforce of Power allows his spell slots to recharge rapidly and give him high DR/good.

Link: Probably a straight-up Fighter. Has some scattered magic items, most notably the Master Sword, which is a Good weapon and pierces Ganondorf's DR, as well as allowing Link to use his Deflect Arrows feat against magical attacks. I'd probably give him level 5-7ish, with a wide range of feats and wealth far beyond his WBL.

Zelda: Bard. She knows at least Disguise Self and Dimension Door, and probably has some Protection from Elements style spells too (she does show up in Death Mountain Crater). Definitely not Dispel Magic. Triforce of Wisdom gives a big bonus to her Bardic Lore checks, which are how she knows all the magic songs.

Does that work?

Prime32
2010-09-25, 07:47 AM
There's a Warlock 20 OoT!Ganondorf build floating around somewhere.
EDIT: Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872510/Hmm,_kind_of_a_humourous_challenge._:P?post_id=338 456954#338456954)


Link is definitely a warblade, maybe with 2 levels of paladin.

Maneuvers off the top of my head:
Desert Wind: Desert Tempest (Hurricane Spin)
Diamond Mind: Diamond Nightmare Blade (or weaker - attack opponent when they give an opening), Quicksilver Motion (roll about in combat)
Iron Heart: Dazing Strike, Finishing Move (Ending Blow), Manticore Parry (can trick foes into hitting each other), Mithral Tornado (Spin Attack), Steel Wind (his attacks can hit multiple foes), Wall of Blades (deflect projectiles with sword)
Stone Dragon: Roots of the Mountain (goat wrestling)
Tiger Claw: Wolf Climbs the Mountain (Helm Splitter, etc.)
White Raven: Shield Counter

Feats: Combat Reflexes
Skills: Concentration, Iaijutsu Focus (Mortal Draw), Jump, Tumble

Equipment: Boots of Mountain Avalanche and swift expeditious retreat (pegasus boots), Holy Avenger (Master Sword)

Heliomance
2010-09-25, 07:57 AM
Would the Giant's Champion class work for Zelda, to mimic the transformation into Sheik? Alternatively, she might just be a Chameleon/Spymaster or something.

Prime32
2010-09-25, 08:02 AM
Would the Giant's Champion class work for Zelda, to mimic the transformation into Sheik? Alternatively, she might just be a Chameleon/Spymaster or something.There's a spell called nightstalker's transformation which is to rogues what Tenser's transformation is to fighters. Maybe she could be a cloistered cleric and persist it?

Could have sworn I made a build that emulated her Super Smash Bros. incarnation pretty well.

Fizban
2010-09-25, 08:22 AM
You can build Link in any number of ways since he can be duplicated through feats, maneuvers, and possibly even wands if you really try at it. The easiest build is going to be the aforementioned (mulitple times even) Warblade/Eternal Blade. A Rod of Ropes could very well have been written to be a hookshot and does the job well. Boomerangs are an exotic weapon and there's a Boomerang Daze feat, but Link's is more of a tool so you might stat it up as a sort of Mage Hand/Daze Monster item. Devoted Spirit maneuvers will let you heal up in combat so you can solo easier, and for Heart Containers you can use any re-usable healing item you like, such as Healing Belts or Amulets of Tears. The Master Sword could just be a powerful weapon, could be an artifact, or could be powered by the Ancestral Relic feat or Legacy Weapon rules.

Gannondorf really depends on what game and what you want him to do. I saw that warlock build and it was pretty cool, but I don't think a warlock would stand up to a martial adept very well (although with Fell Flight and Link's lack of Winged Boots...). I kinda like the idea of making him a refluffed Jade Pheonix Mage: he seems to be reincarnated every so often, just as a new hero always arises, and the JPMs do that. An endless struggle between the dark sorcerer who always returns and the spirits of hero's down the ages training their successors to fight him.

Zelda is even less represented than the other two since she's usually on the sidelines, which means you can pretty much make her whatever you want. Bard has been suggested and could work for the master of disguise/pirate angles, but I'd be more inclined to make her some sort of cleric since she's supposed to have major light magic. You might take inspiration from Super Smash Brothers and make her a Sacred Fist for a cleric with flashy magic powered unarmed combat.

NineThePuma
2010-09-25, 12:47 PM
Ganon's SSBB incarnation, plus sword fighting abilities and magical ass kickery. Warlock was one of my thoughts, and I'd use it. I just don't want to cheese through the Link/Ganon fights that way. (What is jade Phoenix Mage from?)

Zelda's combat representation is very low, I know, which is why I mentioned the Shiek and Tetra aspects. I could see her as a cloistered cleric with some Rogue levels. I don't know where sacred fist is from off the top of my head.

Fayd
2010-09-25, 01:04 PM
Now, WHICH Link, Ganon, or Zelda? Ocarina of Time? Wind Waker? Twilight Princess? Something older (though that'll be Ganon and not Ganondorf...)?

Each one's a little different. For example, OoT and TP Ganon don't have TWF, while Wind Waker Ganon does. My thought for Ganon, actually, is that the Triforce of Power merely gestalts him with a caster class. So, Fighter or some ToB class//Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock.

NineThePuma
2010-09-25, 01:12 PM
Twilight Princess, except Zelda, who gets to be a bizarre mix of Wind Waker and OoT

Prime32
2010-09-25, 01:33 PM
Twilight Princess has the most detailed swordplay of any Zelda game so far, while LTTP has the most items.

There's a psionic power in CompPsi called telekinetic boomerang which mimics the behaviour of the boomerang in post-WW games. Either that or bloodstorm blade levels, but that cuts into his build too much (and would let him throw his sword just as easily).

DeltaEmil
2010-09-25, 01:36 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage is a prestige class detailed in Tome of Battle, which introduces the warblade, the swordsage and the crusader.

Oslecamo
2010-09-25, 02:49 PM
There's a psionic power in CompPsi called telekinetic boomerang which mimics the behaviour of the boomerang in post-WW games. Either that or bloodstorm blade levels, but that cuts into his build too much (and would let him throw his sword just as easily).

You still need to fill in mounted combat and archery wich demands moar fighter levels for feats, and wild cohort for a pimped mount.

At least fighter 6 for dungeon crasher since Link does knock back his oponents a lot, specially handy for making them fall into pits inside dungeons.

dgnslyr
2010-09-25, 03:51 PM
If we're going to use TP Link, are we going to find a way for him to transform into a wolf? My first guess would be Wildshape ranger, but TBH, I don't think it will be very practical to explain all his abilities. Which of his abilities are we going to attempt to stat out? Warblade is a great class for nearly any swordsman, though it doesn't explain much else.

Prime32
2010-09-25, 03:53 PM
If we're going to use TP Link, are we going to find a way for him to transform into a wolf? My first guess would be Wildshape ranger, but TBH, I don't think it will be very practical to explain all his abilities.He uses an item to transform, remember? There's probably a spell in Spell Compendium which could be crafted into something.

Most of his abilities apart from "fighting" come from items.


EDIT: Or you could try basing it on polymorph.
Lv4 spell, CL 2 = 4 * 2 * 1800 = 14,400
1 min/level -> unlimited = x2
Wolf only = -30%?
20,160gp

Nero24200
2010-09-25, 04:23 PM
It would vary from game to game. Twilight princess link should almost certanly be a warblade given his fighting style, but in other games it can chagne quite a bit.

Orcarina of Time link could easily be done as a bard for instance (moderate combat skill, lots of non-combat skill such as stealth, uses various magical items and even has some spells and magical songs).

Link to the past link could very well just be a fighter or rogue with lots of magical items.

Majora's Mask could easily be a bard/fighter/master of masks

Zaydos
2010-09-25, 04:28 PM
Hey in Link to the Past you did learn 3 spells: Quake, Aether, and Bombos.

NineThePuma
2010-09-25, 04:29 PM
Pmidna changes him with an item. She's probably casting Polymorph Other.

Prime32
2010-09-25, 04:52 PM
Hey in Link to the Past you did learn 3 spells: Quake, Aether, and Bombos.They come from medallions though.

You should have brought up Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, where you were a gish. :smallwink:

Murdim
2010-09-25, 05:45 PM
Link can't be a straight Warblade. He's a skilled archer, while Warblades don't even get proficiency with bows.

TP!Link in particular has a very ranger-y feel that can't be duplicated very well except by having at least his first few levels in Ranger. The ideal for him would probably be a Martial Adept variant of the ranger, but an Archer Ranger 4-ish/Warblade x build works fine enough. In gestalt, Spell-less, Archer Ranger//Warblade is pretty much a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

Prime32
2010-09-25, 06:05 PM
Link can't be a straight Warblade. He's a skilled archer, while Warblades don't even get proficiency with bows.Three levels of paladin then, which also gives him immunity to fear and lets him use holy avengers. Or cleric 1/prestige paladin 3 for a special mount. While he's good with a bow, he doesn't have any special techniques with it like he does with a sword - just the standard benefits of a high BAB. He's good with every weapon he gets his hands on, really, it's just that the bow is useful more often and can be enhanced with magic arrows.


TP!Link in particular has a very ranger-y feel that can't be duplicated very well except by having at least his first few levels in Ranger. The ideal for him would probably be a Martial Adept variant of the ranger, but an Archer Ranger 4-ish/Warblade x build works fine enough. In gestalt, Spell-less, Archer Ranger//Warblade is pretty much a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.Most people who work on ranches are commoners or experts, not rangers, and Link isn't even the best animal handler in his village (riding is another thing). That stuff can be covered with some cross-class ranks in Handle Animal.

NineThePuma
2010-09-25, 09:45 PM
TP link as a Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 sounds fun. Still haven't gotten back to my books, but Jade Phoenix Mage sounds interesting. Could someone explain why it would need to be refluffed and if a Paladin could qualify?

I'm thinking Ganon as either a Paladin of Tyranny/Warlock or PoT/Sorc. Of course, Paladin of Destruction is an option...


Zelda's spell casting is really hard to figure for me. Is there a Divine Blaster? I like the concept of a Divine Blaster/Ninja; alternatively, just having her be a straight up Rogue or Bard is possible. Remember, Link's magic songs came from Shiek.

The Pirate aspects (via Tetra) are a bit confuszling for me to work in. Unless we just consider Zelda a straight up Skill Character and have her be a jack of all trades or something.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 01:21 AM
What're the thoughts on Playing Zelda as a Divine Bard with later levels in a variant on Arcane Archer to allow Divine Archery?

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 07:46 AM
Three levels of paladin then, which also gives him immunity to fear and lets him use holy avengers.

He's not immune to fear though. Can't tell you how many times I died to those nasty re-deads.

Prime32
2010-09-29, 07:49 AM
He's not immune to fear though. Can't tell you how many times I died to those nasty re-deads.That seems more of a paralysis effect.

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 07:58 AM
That seems more of a paralysis effect.

Mechanically it probably is a gaze attack that paralyzes the target, but with the scream and everything it seems to be flavored as a fear effect.

Telonius
2010-09-29, 08:03 AM
Link will need some sort of ability similar to Soulknife/Soulbow, but only active when he has full HP. UMD as a class skill, for the Magic Wand. Proficiency in Boomerangs. No Open Lock skill, or he'd never need to find all those keys. At least a few ranks in Perform (woodwind) in order to use the flute.

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 08:56 AM
What're the thoughts on Playing Zelda as a Divine Bard with later levels in a variant on Arcane Archer to allow Divine Archery?

I'm pretty solid with Link and Ganon, even if Ganon needs tweaking a bit. But Zelda needs work.

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 08:58 AM
I'm pretty solid with Link and Ganon, even if Ganon needs tweaking a bit. But Zelda needs work.

Level 3-6 Aristocrat. Done.

Gametime
2010-09-29, 09:06 AM
Ganondorf should almost certainly have access to Polymorph for when he wants to turn into a monstrous pig-beast.

Although it feels like a cop-out to say it, Link probably needs to be gestalt in order to fit in all of his iconic abilities without making the build a mess of unrelated class features.

Also, Leap Attack to simulate the Down-Thrust. (Zelda II is one of the only games where he gets new abilities instead of new items, might as well make use of it!)

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 09:11 AM
Level 3-6 Aristocrat. Done.

And this, naturally, accounts for her musical abilities, magical skills, ninja skills, piracy, kickass archery, and others... Right?

There's a lot more to Zelda (lately) than being a distressed damsel.


Never played Zelda 2. I think I was about eight when I could have and I sucked at gaming when I was 8.

Prime32
2010-09-29, 09:36 AM
You don't really need a "divine archer" PrC - clerics make great archers anyway, especially with the Zen Archery feat (Wis replaces Dex for attack rolls)

And this, naturally, accounts for her musical abilities, magical skills, ninja skills, piracy, kickass archery, and others... Right?I sense a great disturbance in the force. :smalltongue:

DeltaEmil
2010-09-29, 09:47 AM
What about Zelda's ghost powers?

Imagine it. A spell-casting ghost-ninja-pirate-princess in heavy fullplate armor wrestling a hook-shot-handed spirit ninja and kicking the dark lord's face at the same time.

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 10:18 AM
While the aristocrat comment was partially sarcasm, it can actually be used to represent most, if not all, of Zelda's abilities. Firstly, just like Link, Zelda has very different abilities depending on the game you are looking at. Yes, she knows some songs and whatnot, but the songs themselves (and the instruments they are played on) are magical, not the player of the music. Simply having ranks in perform could represent this. Also, some versions have Zelda casting spells, others don't. Whether she has any innate magical abilities could be purely up to interpretation. Since ninja skills and piracy are completely up to flavor and maybe 1 or 2 skills, aristocrat could easily cover these as well. And archery is very easy to optimize, even at low levels.

boj0
2010-09-29, 10:46 AM
He's not immune to fear though. Can't tell you how many times I died to those nasty re-deads.

I would certainly hope that the bearer of the Triforce of Courage would be immune to fear; the simple fact that he goes out of his way to fight half the stuff he does is testimony to an iron will.

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 11:15 AM
I would certainly hope that the bearer of the Triforce of Courage would be immune to fear; the simple fact that he goes out of his way to fight half the stuff he does is testimony to an iron will.

But courage does not mean you are immune to fear. It simply means that you press on despite your fears.

Gametime
2010-09-29, 11:15 AM
"Courage" isn't the same thing as "immunity to fear." Magical fear, in particular, is something Link's never shown any special resistance to. A character can be brave without being completely fearless.

It's never really made clear what the Triforces do. Does the Triforce make Link brave, or does he get it because he's already brave, or both?

DeltaEmil
2010-09-29, 11:16 AM
Being courageous doesn't necessarily mean being immune to fear.

boj0
2010-09-29, 11:22 AM
Immune to fear as in he doesn't show it, I've never seen Link run away from any of his fights. He faces his opponents regardless of any danger he's in. Or to get into the metaphysical, Link is controlled by the player, he can't feel fear because his reactions are in the hands of someone else.

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 11:25 AM
Immune to fear as in he doesn't show it, I've never seen Link run away from any of his fights. He faces his opponents regardless of any danger he's in.

Heh, I've seen Link run like Hell from many monsters. Especially those damn flying things in Hyrule Field.


Or to get into the metaphysical, Link is controlled by the player, he can't feel fear because his reactions are in the hands of someone else.

By that logic, every single video game character ever is immune to fear.

Mordaenor
2010-09-29, 12:03 PM
First of all let me say, I love this idea. Let me also say, I never upgraded to 3.5 so my entire knowledge is still in 3.0. That said, here we go.

Link: I'm pretty sure Link is a straight fighter, with MAYBE a couple levels of Ranger to give him the Archery feats. And a few ranks in Perform skill, because has there been any game where he wasn't given SOME sort of musical instrument? BTW, am I the only one who was upset when Nintendo decided to eliminate the Sword Beam? My Mastersword would definitely have that power, as well the ability to reflect Magic Missiles, as we've seen it do in every game since Link to the Past.
Tri-Force of Courage probably gives him a Will-save bonus, and would provide acces to a few extra Fighter Feats.

Ganon: This one REALLY comes down to which version we are trying to craft. In some games, he comes out swinging, in others he just stands back and hurls spells, but I think best portrayal would be a multiclass Sorceror/Fighter, heavier on the Sorcery side, so Sor13/Ftr7 or something like that. Heavy concentration on Evocations and Transmutations.
Tri-Force of Power raises his effective Caster level AND gives him an increase on his Attack Bonus

Zelda: After thinking this one over for a while, I finally settled on Monk, with some Cleric levels. This wouldn't work for Tetra unfortunately, but I never was a big fan of that incarnation of Zelda anyway. It would give us a fairly accurate Zelda/Sheik. Let's even go a step further and say the Tri-Force of Wisdom allows her acces to higher level Cleric spells than her class levels would normally allow (but does not raise her actual caster level)

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 12:27 PM
Link: I'm pretty sure Link is a straight fighter, with MAYBE a couple levels of Ranger to give him the Archery feats. And a few ranks in Perform skill, because has there been any game where he wasn't given SOME sort of musical instrument? BTW, am I the only one who was upset when Nintendo decided to eliminate the Sword Beam? My Mastersword would definitely have that power, as well the ability to reflect Magic Missiles, as we've seen it do in every game since Link to the Past.
Tri-Force of Courage probably gives him a Will-save bonus, and would provide acces to a few extra Fighter Feats.

Yes. Link doesn't have any innate magical abilities on his own. Straight fighter would fit best, and maybe a touch of ranger (favored enemy: pottery) for the ability to use divine wands and scrolls (though we don't really see him use these either). I'd say straight fighter would probably be fine. For a more Twilight Princess version, add 1-3 levels of rogue for some sneak attack that comes from pulling off sword skills correctly (improved feint).


Ganon: This one REALLY comes down to which version we are trying to craft. In some games, he comes out swinging, in others he just stands back and hurls spells, but I think best portrayal would be a multiclass Sorceror/Fighter, heavier on the Sorcery side, so Sor13/Ftr7 or something like that. Heavy concentration on Evocations and Transmutations.
Tri-Force of Power raises his effective Caster level AND gives him an increase on his Attack Bonus

I don't think I'd make Ganon level 20. All three of them can probably be represented with no more than 10 character levels. I'd give Ganon an even number of sorcerer and fighter levels (having an odd number in either is kinda pointless). He needs to be able to fly and maybe polymorph so level 6-8 sorcerer, level 2-4 fighter.


Zelda: After thinking this one over for a while, I finally settled on Monk, with some Cleric levels. This wouldn't work for Tetra unfortunately, but I never was a big fan of that incarnation of Zelda anyway. It would give us a fairly accurate Zelda/Sheik. Let's even go a step further and say the Tri-Force of Wisdom allows her acces to higher level Cleric spells than her class levels would normally allow (but does not raise her actual caster level)

I guess monk works okay for her. It gives her perform as well as the necessary spells to match her flavor. I'm not so sure she was that skilled in hand-to-hand combat, but her str was probably low so she never bothered and instead used spells and archery. With cleric you could actually flavor many of her ranged attacks as spells (arrows of light = scorching ray).

Mordaenor
2010-09-29, 01:08 PM
With cleric you could actually flavor many of her ranged attacks as spells (arrows of light = scorching ray).

You could do that, but I'm not even sure that's necessary. The game is so heavily tied to gear that you can produce nearly any effect you want through use of magic items. Arrows of Light translates easily to Holy Arrows.

Prime32
2010-09-29, 01:10 PM
Yes. Link doesn't have any innate magical abilities on his own. Straight fighter would fit best, and maybe a touch of ranger (favored enemy: pottery) for the ability to use divine wands and scrolls (though we don't really see him use these either). I'd say straight fighter would probably be fine. For a more Twilight Princess version, add 1-3 levels of rogue for some sneak attack that comes from pulling off sword skills correctly (improved feint).The ToB classes were partly based on Soul Calibur II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=117zWPlO0N8). So... why exactly do you think warblade is inappropriate? :smalltongue:

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 01:24 PM
The ToB classes were partly based on Soul Calibur II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=117zWPlO0N8). So... why exactly do you think warblade is inappropriate? :smalltongue:

I never said warblade was inappropriate. I am completely unfamiliar with ToB so I wouldn't know. But what I do know is that 100% of Link's abilities can be represented with feats and magical gear, and if anything, ToB best represents the Soul Calibur version of Link (which is perfectly fine if that's the version you want).

Mordaenor
2010-09-29, 01:45 PM
Favored enemy: Pottery. HA! I love it! Actually, Rangers can take "Plant Creatures" as a favored enemy right? Would that give the Link the edge he needs over those accursed bushes and tall grass? :smallbiggrin:

Gametime
2010-09-29, 02:36 PM
I never said warblade was inappropriate. I am completely unfamiliar with ToB so I wouldn't know. But what I do know is that 100% of Link's abilities can be represented with feats and magical gear, and if anything, ToB best represents the Soul Calibur version of Link (which is perfectly fine if that's the version you want).

The Soul Calibur version does very few things that can't be replicated in one of the main video-games, and off the top of my head I can't think of any that are overtly more over-the-top than his canon moves.

Especially in the more recent games, Link has shown an ability to spin his blade in a circle and hit multiple enemies; jump and attack an enemy from above, without any sort of running start; and roll to the side to avoid an attack before coming up in an upward jumping slash. That's without even getting into his acrobatics while assisted by the Hook/Clawshots.

All the above moves stretch the boundaries of "realistic" combat, but none of them get into overtly supernatural or seemingly magical territory. Further, none of them are replicated as well by feats as by maneuvers. So, yeah, Warblade seems like the best base for Link.

Jack Zander
2010-09-29, 02:39 PM
The Soul Calibur version does very few things that can't be replicated in one of the main video-games, and off the top of my head I can't think of any that are overtly more over-the-top than his canon moves.

Especially in the more recent games, Link has shown an ability to spin his blade in a circle and hit multiple enemies; jump and attack an enemy from above, without any sort of running start; and roll to the side to avoid an attack before coming up in an upward jumping slash. That's without even getting into his acrobatics while assisted by the Hook/Clawshots.

All the above moves stretch the boundaries of "realistic" combat, but none of them get into overtly supernatural or seemingly magical territory. Further, none of them are replicated as well by feats as by maneuvers. So, yeah, Warblade seems like the best base for Link.

Then perhaps warblade would be a better fit. All I really know is that Link should be a rather mundane individual once you take away his gear.

Nero24200
2010-09-29, 04:21 PM
Remember that Zelda, like Link, also differs in some games. In Link to the Past Zelda is barely able to protect herself and requires link to escort her to safety in the first few minutes of the game.

On the otherhand, in twilight princess, she not only shows an ability to remain alive in an extremly hostile enviroment (in fact, the only human you see in the twilight realm) but also magical and martial skill, as well as some skill in horse-back riding.

In some games I'd say aristocrat is fine, but for game slike TP I'd say...duskblade/aristocrat with a variant arcane channeling ability that allows ranged channel attacks as well.

It may be worth just picking certain games and statting the characters specifically for that one.

The only exception to this would be Gannondolf since, unlike Link and Zelda, the Gannondorf you see in the games is the same man (rather than a reincarnation), since he is never killed but rather sealed away at the end of each game. *spoiler alert* With the possible exception of Twilight princess where we physically see link wound him while the triforce fades, possibily indicating that he no longer has access to the power from it and could be dying as a result.

This also partly surgests that holding the Triforce of power grants Gannondorf the ability to survive in alternate worlds such as the Twilight Realm (from TP) or the Dark Realm (from Link to the Past). It also seems that, despite reincarnation, Zelda is able to "remember" to a certain extent the events of Hyrule which could be a result of the Triforce of Wisdom since Link seems to need an explaination in every game.

Prime32
2010-09-29, 04:37 PM
Where does Zelda "remember" things like that?

And while Ganondorf is one man, his personality has developed differently on the two timelines that branch from OoT. Wind Waker Ganon succeeded in conquering Hyrule, then was defeated by the gods. Twilight Princess Ganon (who became LTTP Ganon) had his plans pre-empted by Link. The former is portrayed somewhat sympathetically, the latter as a madman.

Gametime
2010-09-29, 06:48 PM
Another note about Ganondorf: Make sure the campaign has a red herring villain. Someone completely unrelated. Then, at the last second, have him bust out and be like "Surprise! It was really me the whole time!"

NineThePuma
2010-09-29, 08:37 PM
Nah, I won't Hijack a villain with Ganon.

... The /players/ on the other hand...

dgnslyr
2010-09-29, 11:06 PM
"Courage" isn't the same thing as "immunity to fear." Magical fear, in particular, is something Link's never shown any special resistance to. A character can be brave without being completely fearless.

It's never really made clear what the Triforces do. Does the Triforce make Link brave, or does he get it because he's already brave, or both?

Well, going by adamwestslapdog's interpretation, it makes jumping in front of a bus a much less terrible idea. In other words, "My Triforce piece makes me stupid?!!?"

Fizban
2010-09-30, 12:32 AM
He uses an item to transform, remember? There's probably a spell in Spell Compendium which could be crafted into something.

Most of his abilities apart from "fighting" come from items.


EDIT: Or you could try basing it on polymorph.
Lv4 spell, CL 2 = 4 * 2 * 1800 = 14,400
1 min/level -> unlimited = x2
Wolf only = -30%?
20,160gp
Aspect of the Wolf is what you're looking for, and it's a bargain: 1st level spell, 10 minute/level duration. In theory an at will item is only 2,000gp. But really, turning into a wolf was all power of plot, I wouldn't make it part of his stats. If it must be done I'd make him cast it through ranger or with a wand as a ranger.

My thought for Ganon, actually, is that the Triforce of Power merely gestalts him with a caster class. So, Fighter or some ToB class//Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock.
Wow, that is an excellent idea. Aside from plot power, each triforce gives a gestalt: something arcane for power, cleric for light, and something for courage. Paladin is pretty lame for gestalt but it makes the most sense.

[Link/Gannon/Zelda]
Hehe, you basically said the same stuff I did. I agree that you can in fact do link with straight fighter, but I think it would also end up a lot less fun than Warblade/Eternal Blade. As for the lack of ranged weapon proficiency, well a lot of people think Link's an elf right? You suggest monk/cleric for Zelda, which coincidentally is the intro to Sacred Fist.

Then perhaps warblade would be a better fit. All I really know is that Link should be a rather mundane individual once you take away his gear.
This definitely depends on the game. In most of them Link would be quite mundane without his gear, but in Twilight Princess and from the sounds of it Zelda II as well, he learns advanced swordfighting that he would keep even without his gear. I was actually a bit disappointed in TP when I got the master sword: aside from the standard damage boost (which was needed with ridiculous enemy hp), it didn't really make me any more awesome. Link did the same moves with the epic sword as he did with one made in the village. I favor him as a Warblade/Eternal Blade with Wild Cohort, and since Eternal Blade is Elf only (stupid racial requirements) you'll have bow proficiency no problem. I actually don't think the "triforce gestalt" idea applies to TP, since zelda and gannon display no overt magic themselves, just immunity to the twilight realm and a beast transformation (and a bunch of silly walls of force).

NineThePuma
2010-09-30, 01:11 AM
Zelda as a Monk/Cleric is.. Amusing. (Where is Sacred Fist from?)

Link becoming a wolf with Aspect of the Wolf (where's THAT from?) is kickass. I admit that plot kicked his ass there, but it was really fun to run around as a wolf.

Ganon is REALLY hard to figure. I think that him as a Sorc with Tenser's Transformation and a bunch of linked spells would work. Maybe Battle Sorc? (Also, I'd argue that Triforce of Power boosted his PHYSICAL ability, as he was still a mage Pre-TFoP.

Fiery Diamond
2010-09-30, 01:26 AM
I have to be honest- whenever I think of Ganondorf here, I think Gestalt. One side martial, the other side magic.

Zore
2010-09-30, 01:43 AM
I think Gannondorf would most likely be represented by a gestalt Barbarian//Sorcerer. From the end of Twilight Princess and Wind Waker its pretty clear his approach to swordsmanship and martial combat is to overpower. He didn't have many fancy moves beyond wailing on you with his sword/s as appropriate for someone who is chosen as the avatar of Power. He also has the ability to gain strength from his anger and while in martial combat he doesn't use any of his magical abilities so I think Barbarian fits best here.

Fizban
2010-09-30, 02:30 AM
I think Gannondorf would most likely be represented by a gestalt Barbarian//Sorcerer. From the end of Twilight Princess and Wind Waker its pretty clear his approach to swordsmanship and martial combat is to overpower. He didn't have many fancy moves beyond wailing on you with his sword/s as appropriate for someone who is chosen as the avatar of Power. He also has the ability to gain strength from his anger and while in martial combat he doesn't use any of his magical abilities so I think Barbarian fits best here.

That's perfect! You know what prestige class he has on that barbarian side right? Bear Warrior. Or maybe Boar Warrior. Add some sort of feat to make him even bigger and poof, the Gannon/Beast Gannon transformation is complete with rage.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-30, 07:53 AM
Ganondorf in Wind Waker was able to do quite fancy kung fu-flips to evade dangerous attacks.
There, Link was also able to do crazy-awesome sommersault-attacks and rolling behind enemies and attacking their undefended weak spots as a parry action.

Mordaenor
2010-09-30, 08:18 AM
Hehe, you basically said the same stuff I did. I agree that you can in fact do link with straight fighter, but I think it would also end up a lot less fun than Warblade/Eternal Blade. As for the lack of ranged weapon proficiency, well a lot of people think Link's an elf right? You suggest monk/cleric for Zelda, which coincidentally is the intro to Sacred Fist.


As I said, I never upgraded to 3.5, so my knowledge is limited to the PHB and splat books released for 3.0 (I got a few monster manuals for 3.5, but that's it). As for Sacred Fist, I did consider that, but Zelda's never been enough of a front line, melee combatant to justify taking that class. I gave her Monk because of its association with high Dex and Wis, but I don't think she would get any use out of the unarmed combat feature. Unless Sacred Fist has another benefit that Zelda might have use (I'd have to re-check the class features), I don't see her taking it.