Gaining XP while dead.

[terenes]

Hi!

Here is my thought which has been harrassing me for a long time so I've created acount to share it with you.

Players get XP for:
- Fights
- Roleplaying
- making reasonable efforts
- having successfull actions
etc

Roy - while being dead - as PC has done most of it.
He has tried everything what he could, more than anyone can expect from ghost unseen and unheard by everyone.

So I think that he could get much XP while being dead.
Roy is resourcefull and more creative than most of Oots.
It is even possible that Roy actually get MORE experience
than some of oots members.
This, ofcourse, doesn't count his level drain from dying.

What do you think?

[SoC175]

Most of the things Roy could have gotten XP should have given some minor roleplaying XP rewards, he did nothing really big. Probably the biggest XP award would have been the evil adventurers, but given how easily they died, they couldn't have had much on an CR.

[terenes]

Most of the things Roy could have gotten XP should have given some minor roleplaying XP rewards, he did nothing really big. Probably the biggest XP award would have been the evil adventurers, but given how easily they died, they couldn't have had much on an CR.

He has gained important informations from Oracle...

[SoC175]

He has gained important informations from Oracle... But not really because of any special action on his part, not even a skill check. Even so that hardly counts as even a single level appropriate encounter. A nice DM may have said "here, 250 XP for your efforts" but that's a trifle at Roy's level and nothing compared to fight scrags, giant devils, negotiating with orc hordes, fighting golems or the leaders of a thieves guild.

[Ron Miel]

Don't you lose a lot of XP for dying, though? I doubt his post-mortal experiences made up for what he lost.

[Gandariel]

But not really because of any special action on his part, not even a skill check. Even so that hardly counts as even a single level appropriate encounter. A nice DM may have said "here, 250 XP for your efforts" but that's a trifle at Roy's level and nothing compared to fight scrags, giant devils, negotiating with orc hordes, fighting golems or the leaders of a thieves guild.

but considering that you don't want to have a party of 6 people with 5 guys at lvl 15 and one guy at lvl 12, a reasonable GM would have allowed that, just to make sure everyone is somehow balanced...

[Ancalagon]

Roy did "plot" as everyone else, so he should gain plot-XP as everyone else.

[Lecan]

He also set up whatever it was with Roy's Archon.

[Maxios]

Good thinking. He could've gotten enough XP from roleplaying equal to the party's from battling and questing.

[the_tick_rules]

Hmm, I've never thought of that. I wonder if you can gain xp while dead, any rules on that?

[Crisis21]

Hmm, I've never thought of that. I wonder if you can gain xp while dead, any rules on that?

I'm guessing that it depends on two factors: If the player/character is still involved in the game while dead, and if the GM will allow it.

Roy was clearly still involved in the game, even if his interactions were severely limited, the only question now is if the OotS world allows the dead to gain XP based on their actions while dead.

[elonin]

Gaining xp can only happen if there is a chance of failure. Maybe he got xp while actively trying to interact with the real world. The time he spent in the upper level shouldn't count since he was in effect blissed out.

[Marnath]

Also it is important to keep in mind that he was levels ahead of the party prior to his death. Specifically, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) his father mentions he was the highest level good PC on the field. One level lost from dying, and lets say the party gained a level during the seperation. That still would leave him even, even if he didn't get RP xp.

[Acero]

He could have spent time in the Dungeon of Monsters That are Just Strong Enough to Challenge You..

[Dr.Epic]

Depends if Rich says Roy gained XP. Some DMs would say yes, others would disagree with this.

[Morquard]

Also it is important to keep in mind that he was levels ahead of the party prior to his death. Specifically, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) his father mentions he was the highest level good PC on the field. One level lost from dying, and lets say the party gained a level during the seperation. That still would leave him even, even if he didn't get RP xp.

a) Don't take anythign Eugene said to Roy at face value. He twists and mangles the truth when he thinks he can use it to hit Roy over the head with it.

b) Even if all the OOtS were the exact same level, Roy wouldn't get into a nitpicking argument with his father about it. "No I wasn't the highest level! Haley, Durkon and even Elan were the same" - that sounds way too much as blaming someone else, and burdoning the responsibility on them not himself. Roy's the leader, her knows that, and ultimately he's responsible for his group.
Heck, I even doubt he'd have replied with "Wrong! Haley is 2 levels ahead of me", for the same reason. He's the leader, so effectivly the responsibility on how to use the resources of the OOtS fall to him. And his dad knows that he'll just eat it up and blame himself.

So that sentence alone says nothing about the level-structure of the OOtS.

c) Also how and where would Roy have gotten 1 or 2 levels ahead of his teammates? In the Dungeon at the beginning they all leveled up at the same time, and after Xykon was defeated for the first time at the inn they all leveled up again at the same time. So that indicates to me they were all really close together in terms of XP. Since then Roy didn't do anything that would give him bonus XP that the others wouldn't get.
Elan for his solo adventure after the Nale-switch would be a better choice for getting ahead of the group.

d) The way XP is awarded in D&D means that lower level players earn more XP, and as they also need less XP to advance, they catch up relatively fast.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

Don't take anythign Eugene said to Roy at face value. He twists and mangles the truth when he thinks he can use it to hit Roy over the head with it.


Although I don't disagree with your main argument, I don't find that a particularly good point. From a realistic point of view? Yeah, Eugene isn't a particularly truthful guy. However, there is little narrative value in a character skewing the truth about a relatively insignificant fact when the skewing in question is neither pointed out nor elaborated upon. I mean, imagine writing it yourself. Would you think "Well, technically Roy wasn't the highest leveled character, but I'll have Eugene say he is, which Roy won't note the inaccuracy of because he doesn't want to pass the blame"? I mean, obviously you wouldn't actually go through that elongated thought process, but the point's the same. The thought that anybody would write it that way is just weird.

[Ancalagon]

"If there is a plot played, you get xp". Why should it matter, especially on D&D, on what plane you are or how you got there?

It makes no sense you get xp when you planeshift to some afterlife and "play" some plot there but not if you get there being dead and then "play" some plot there.

Even the character loses most of the memories about what happend you still can "learn" something from what happened or have some subconscious memories (see the Fighting Move Roy learned from his grandfather... you CAN learn stuff in the afterlife).

So, yes, Roy should get xp. Him getting those would also be a very elegant way around the fact he should have lost a level (compared to the rest of the order). He lost that level, but he also got xp in the afterlife, so this death was basically "for free". Seems like a pretty good solution to me.

[SoC175]

"If there is a plot played, you get xp". If there is such a thing in the first place. Most of the time the "plot xp" is just a minor adjustment to fill up the rounding errors of the XP you got from defeating the encounters you had to do while you did plot (hm, they need 11,4 encounters to level, the plot has the equivalent of 11 encounters, so they just get the rest as a "plot XP bonus").

Yet Roy's "doing" plot consisted to 90% of him just floating after someone and watching without being able to do anything to influence anything.

[Innis Cabal]

Gaining xp can only happen if there is a chance of failure. Maybe he got xp while actively trying to interact with the real world. The time he spent in the upper level shouldn't count since he was in effect blissed out.

Where does it say that? I don't remember reading that anywhere.

[Deliverance]

It makes no sense you get xp when you planeshift to some afterlife and "play" some plot there but not if you get there being dead and then "play" some plot there.

Even the character loses most of the memories about what happend you still can "learn" something from what happened or have some subconscious memories (see the Fighting Move Roy learned from his grandfather... you CAN learn stuff in the afterlife).

While I would tend to agree in D&D terms, one could just as well ask how "experience" gained while parted from one's body makes one better at doing anything when embodied and, if it does while one is dead, how about things experienced as parts of normal dreams? It isn't as if D&D has any sort of connection between how xp is gained and what skills are improved in the first place.

Experience in D&D and levelgaining is an utterly nonsensical gameplay mechanism, that works quite well in practice; One shouldn't look too close at it and assume "sense" where none exist. It makes just as much sense for a character to gain xp while dead as it makes for the character not to gain xp while dead - it all depends on the rules of the universe. :)

[Tyndmyr]

FYI: You can gain xp while dead in Ghostwalk.

So...it's not like it's that crazy of an idea.

[zalmatra]

if your a good dm.

"Death is only the Beginning"

[amnonian]

If memory serves you can get exp from two things only:
Successfully defeating some kind of challenge with a chance of failure, (So long as failure is dangerous.)
And successfully roleplaying. Some dms don't give exp for that, And some give a very small amount. (While some give more roleplaying exp then the other kind.)

[Ancalagon]

FYI: You can gain xp while dead in Ghostwalk.


Who says that? And who said it also applies to OotS?

[hamishspence]

Ghostwalk works a bit differently- when you die, you become an incorporeal outsider rather than an undead, and start taking levels in ghost-only classes (Eidolon, Eidolancer).

Once your levels in these classes exceed your levels in standard classes- you succumb to "The Calling" and pass on to the afterlife.

So it doesn't really apply to Roy's situation.

[Setra]

From what I could tell, Tyndmyr was merely mentioning it to suggest it's not unheard of, rather than suggesting that exact case applied here.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Normally you don't get to do anything while your dead.Your character is inactive and uninvolved in the campaign. This did not apply to Roy so he got to gain xp training with his fighter granddad.

[blunk]

Normally you don't get to do anything while you're dead.Are we counting "Greatest Hits" albums?

[Southern Cross]

No,as other people actually select the songs that go into the album.