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View Full Version : If You Could Fix Your RPG... (Any Sytem)



Halna LeGavilk
2010-09-25, 06:41 AM
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I'm going to start designing my own RPG/gaming system. However, I need to know a few things first, and I was hoping you guys in the Playground could help me out.

I'd like know what systems you guys are playing, and what you think could be done to better them. Are they too complex? Too simple? Too much of a learning curve? Etc...

akma
2010-09-25, 06:45 AM
A system with a fast character generation, simple rules, with rules regarding social combat (and maybe mass combat too, would be a nice bonus).That`s all the things I could think about now. I mainly a D&D player, so less focus on combat would be nice.

oxybe
2010-09-25, 08:43 AM
before you do anything, find out what genres you want your game to emulate and which tropes should be followed.

a "generic system" is a fine idea, but these usually require quite a bit of tinkering to get it parsed down to a specific genre, especially by new players and even experienced GMs might want something that works out of the box so they can focus on the storytelling aspect rather then the mechanics.

simply knowing those two things will help you figure out a lot of the methodology on which systems within the game you'll want to focus on and how in-depth.

a more pulp-action game will probably have loose and fast mechanics so you can get back to the awesome. a game about investigation will have less plot-bypasses and probably require a bit more footwork on the player's end, etc...

personally, while i like generic games, i've got mine: GURPS. i would much rather have several games with a focus on different genres and tropes then a bunch of generic ones that i need to tweak and retweak.

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-25, 08:58 AM
Let's see.

Unisystem: I don't need any fixing with Unisystem. It is already as good as it can be, considering what it's used for - it just needs a way to play superheroes and I'm good to go.

Mutants & Masterminds: A lot of things could be fixed with M&M, but fixing them would make the system much less playable. A few things like getting a Blast + Knockback effect cheaper than Blast alone would be good, of course, but mostly just efficiency issues.

Exalted: Where do I begin? It might be necessary to create an entire Third Edition, possibly with a completely revamped Charm and combat system. Hire the Ink Monkeys to do the mechanics and only the mechanics, possibly using Storytelling as a base instead of Storyteller. Make paranoia combat useless, make playing without building an infrastructure more viable, make Sidereals make sense, etc. I play this game only because of the setting, and no other system I know can work with the setting.

Risus: You're joking, right?

GURPS: Make the system more approachable. I don't mean make it less all-encompassing; that's about the only reason GURPS exists. I mean make the 400+ pages of mechanics a fun read. It reads like a physician's study book, and doesn't quite make me go "hey, I can do some pretty sweet stuff with that".

Rad
2010-09-25, 09:24 AM
A system with a fast character generation, simple rules, with rules regarding social combat (and maybe mass combat too, would be a nice bonus).That`s all the things I could think about now. I mainly a D&D player, so less focus on combat would be nice.

Exalted had both a social combat and mass combat system in 2e. I can't really defend the "simple rules", although they look much more complicated than they actually are from the manual.

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-25, 09:28 AM
Exalted had both a social combat and mass combat system in 2e. I can't really defend the "simple rules", although they look much more complicated than they actually are from the manual.

Yes, and neither of them are really very useful unless the players are willing to play along, despite their better judgment. Social combat, especially, suffers from the fact that you can just punch your way out of it. And if you don't, a properly built social combatant can enslave you in four minutes with his awesome Presence attacks.

Yora
2010-09-25, 09:44 AM
I played D&D and other d20 games for 10 years, but I think the systems fundamental flaw is soemething that can't be fixed. It's the core mechanic of making everything level based. All the problems I have with all d20 systems come from this.You begin the game without barely a chance to survive basic encounters and within a relatively short amount of time, the characters power becomes god-like. That's okay for dungeon crawl games, but places great restrictions on what things can happen in the campaign and which not. And you have to get lots of levels to get enough feats, so you can give your character the type of weapon and armor you like, and have a chance to actually hit something.
And as in d20 Hit dice and leves are everything, I don't think this can be fixed. If you want a capaign focused on storytelling in which the characters do what would make the story most exiting, I advice using a different system.

I think Star Wars Saga is by far the best d20 system out there, but it still is based around class levels.

doc*sk
2010-09-25, 10:01 AM
For my group, fantasy seems to be the easiest to run. But I would love to run some other games.

The problems that we ran into:

Mutants & Masterminds: Because of the nature of superpowers, it is difficult to give out rewards other than experience points. I couldn't allow the pcs to pick up a machine gun from their foes, because it would unbalance the party. So, a good rewards system would be nice.

I would love to see how someone else solved this problem.

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-25, 10:06 AM
For my group, fantasy seems to be the easiest to run. But I would love to run some other games.

The problems that we ran into:

Mutants & Masterminds: Because of the nature of superpowers, it is difficult to give out rewards other than experience points. I couldn't allow the pcs to pick up a machine gun from their foes, because it would unbalance the party. So, a good rewards system would be nice.

I would love to see how someone else solved this problem.

They can pick up a machine gun... which will get irreparably jammed, damaged or stolen by a minor enemy by the next session. They can buy a car with their wealth... which will constantly get stuck in traffic when on the way to ADVENTURE!

Basically, they can get rewards that help them with daily life (a sports car, a mundane luxury house, a membership in that golf club, a fridge to keep your food cold), but unless you spend power points on them, they won't help you on your heroics.

Glimbur
2010-09-25, 10:49 AM
A system with a fast character generation, simple rules, with rules regarding social combat (and maybe mass combat too, would be a nice bonus).That`s all the things I could think about now. I mainly a D&D player, so less focus on combat would be nice.

RISUS (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm). All combat is combat, which in some ways is incredibly insane... but that's part of the charm. Mass combat rules are simple if you treat a mob of enemies as one enemy mechanically. RISUS is about as simple as a system can get, which is great for a pickup game or for first timers, but the optimizer in me is disappointed at the lack of mechanical differentiation possible.

Wuthering Heights (http://www.unseelie.org/rpg/wh/index.html) needs a better problem table. In games I run, the large number of physical problems are just not interesting. So, I changed it. Better definition on what Despair checks are good for would be helpful also. The basic rules are effective for enforcing how the game should work: if you decide to just start gunning people down in the street you are fairly easy to take down but plotting and scheming can get results. The other major problem is that it requires a level of buy-in from players: their characters are not always under their control, sometimes you have to act a certain way due to rage and/or despair.

Dairun Cates
2010-09-25, 01:18 PM
Alright. As someone who's also developing a system (linked in signature), I can give you a few pointers on this from my experience.

1. There are complex RPGs and simple ones. They're both equally valid. Getting data from people on this is really only going to reveal what kind of gamer they are. I really suggest you go with what feels right for your system on this. If you're going fast and furious and wacky, you'll want to streamline things as much as possible. If you're going more serious and realistic and tactical, it's bound to need to be a bit more complex. A simple system is a lot more fast-paced and newbie-friendly, but lack certain options at times and requires some GM ruling. Complex systems have the rules and options for a lot of things, but they can be hard to learn and not everybody always remembers them. It's a trade-off. So, yeah. I think it's more important to decide the TONE of your system rather than determining complexity first. You'll have an audience either way. Fair warning though. It's easy to overdo it on complexity, but it's hard to overdo simplicity to the point of unplayability. Because of that, I'd recommend erring on the side of simplicity if you haven't made up your mind. Worst case scenario, you put too much in and come up with a reasonably complex system instead of a clustered hodge podge.

2. Avoid going generic. A lot of people try to create generic setting systems like GURPS, FUDGE, and Risus. Arguments about whether you like those aside, it's been done, and it's been done better. Unless you just have the whiz-bang, can't-believe-no-one's-thought-of-it mechanic idea of the century, it's usually a lot better to start with a specific setting in mind and build a system around that. Even then, having a more specific and flavored setting can pull in lots of players. After all, even most Exalted fans will admit that Exalted is a mostly broken system, but they love the setting and keep playing because of it.

3. Read RPG and game theory books. LOTS of them. I have a tub of tabletop books that's something around 50 books. I've read each of them cover to cover. I have another group of books from my college classes on game theory. I've read those mostly cover to cover as well. I'm still not done learning. However, reading up and know where others have succeeded and failed and know the exact phrases for common problems and design philosophies helps a LOT.

4. Kill Your Darlings. It's a common phrase in software, film, and game development. What it means, is no matter how cool a given mechanic or thing is, if it doesn't fit in with the rest of the project, you need to ax it from the project and potentially save it for later projects or ideas. A lot of people have trouble with this and it can cause horrible feature creep in their system where it has a hodge podge of mechanics for a bunch of little things. When a mechanic isn't working, no matter how cool it is, you need to get rid of it.

5. Learn basic dice probabilities. This one is obvious to a lot of people, but some people just don't understand it. Some systems use 2 or 3d6 for rolls. Some use d20's. Some use d12's. Some use d100's. There's a reason for each of these choices and it's not just because someone liked the numbers. The way that dice roll distribution is done is completely changed.

The obvious one is that a 2d6, while only having 12 real outcomes, has a 1 in 36 chance of rolling a 11 and 1 in 36 chance of rolling a 2 with a heavy emphasis on rolls of 6,7, or 8. This causes a more even distribution and allows for more "averaged rolls". d20 is a straight 1 in 20 shot for any roll. In my own system, I used 2d6 because I put all the stats on a scale from 1 to 10. Among a bunch of other reasons, this means that a perfect stat of 10 can lose to the lowest stat of 1 approximately 1 in 1000 times. It's a low probability, but it keeps characters from getting stats so high its impossible to lose a roll to them. Even a character with 10 precision will miss a character with an average 4 agility and no buffs once in a blue moon (it's about a 2.7% chance).

But yeah. Learn your dice statistics.

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-25, 01:24 PM
The obvious one is that a 2d6, while only having 12 real outcomes...

Learning basic math also helps when learning dice statistics. :smalltongue:

((2d6 only has 11 outcomes.))

Draz74
2010-09-25, 01:34 PM
On 2d6 dice statistics: thank goodness the writers of Settlers of Catan knew what they were doing.

On Risus: I'd really like the rules to be fleshed out with a few more details. What happens if there's a tie on an opposed roll? Is there a system for figuring out what order players take their turns in combat?

On most heavier-rules systems: I'm tired of special abilities that boil down to "add a small bonus to a die roll." Witchcraft (a Unisystem game), for example: I was checking it out and was disappointed, for a system that should be emphasizing its magic system, that the magic system mostly looked like it would play out rather slowly, because the players would constantly be keeping track of "let's see, I have a +1 bonus to my attacks from X effect, a +2 bonus from Y, and another +1 bonus from Z ..." This was the number-one turnoff for me from D&D 4e when it came out.

Dairun Cates
2010-09-25, 01:42 PM
Learning basic math also helps when learning dice statistics. :smalltongue:

((2d6 only has 11 outcomes.))

Right. Had a brain fart. It is 11. The rest of the math is still sound though. Yes. I do know the math, I just slip up occasionally. At least I didn't say the average roll was a 6.

Teln
2010-09-25, 06:45 PM
Exalted: Where do I begin? It might be necessary to create an entire Third Edition, possibly with a completely revamped Charm and combat system. Hire the Ink Monkeys to do the mechanics and only the mechanics, possibly using Storytelling as a base instead of Storyteller. Make paranoia combat useless, make playing without building an infrastructure more viable, make Sidereals make sense, etc. I play this game only because of the setting, and no other system I know can work with the setting.

After the Dawn "fix", I'm not sure the Ink Monkeys are the best choice. Their entire philosophy seems to be "Broken? Buy these Charms and everything's hunky-dory!" From what I've heard, it holds up, but I think you should treat the disease instead of the symptoms. Don't even get me started on Caste-exclusive keywords.

The Rose Dragon
2010-09-25, 06:54 PM
After the Dawn "fix", I'm not sure the Ink Monkeys are the best choice. Their entire philosophy seems to be "Broken? Buy these Charms and everything's hunky-dory!" From what I've heard, it holds up, but I think you should treat the disease instead of the symptoms. Don't even get me started on Caste-exclusive keywords.

Right now, they're trying to keep a brain-dead person alive. There is no disease to cure, as the system is basically dead. It is a mountain of garbage on a pile of manure on a sea of utter mess. Without completely revamping it, it can never be truly fixed. And right now, they don't have the authority to create a new edition, so they cannot completely revamp it.

My opinion on the Ink Monkeys is a two-faced one. On the one hand, they have brought some of the most mechanically sound updates to the game. On the other hand, with every fluff they introduce or reveal, the setting becomes less and less like what I imagined it to be before they became the prime Exalted freelancers.

That is why I said "mechanics and mechanics alone". There is no team I'd rather work on the mechanics of a Third Edition than Goodwin's, but I've disliked or been indifferent to the fluff of almost every book the Ink Monkeys have worked on.