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Elemental_Elf
2010-09-25, 11:47 AM
One of my fellow players has recently started to track all of the damage the players do to all of the enemies in a given encounter. I know some players love to track the AC of enemies but I've never run into players wanting to know the HP of a monster to such a great extent. Personally, I feel its really metagame-y and can be tantamount to cheating (especially in 4E games where the players are alerted when an enemy is bloodied (i.e. at 50% of HP)). But this could just be my knee jerk reaction.

So my question is how do you feel about players tracking Enemy HP independent of the DM?

snoopy13a
2010-09-25, 11:52 AM
One of my fellow players in a campaign I am playing in has recently started to track all of the damage he and his fellow players do to all of the enemies in a given encounter. I know some players love to track the AC of enemies but I've never run into players wanting to know the HP of a monster to such a great extent. Personally, I feel its really metagame-y and can be tantamount to a feeling of cheating (especially in 4E games where the players are alerted when an enemy is bloodied (i.e. at 50% of HP). But this could just be my knee jerk reaction.

So my question is how do you feel about players tracking Enemy HP independent of the DM?

If you are really bothered, you could always roll for damage yourself and not tell the players how much damage they did.

I don't think it that metagamey though. I think an experienced adventurer would get a decent idea of how injured the monster that he or she is fighting if they have had experience fighting this monster in the past. This observation is represented by the player keeping track of how much damage he or she has done.

ericgrau
2010-09-25, 11:56 AM
Ya even though an adventurer wouldn't have an exact number he could at least ballpark it. Heck, to level the playing field for the other PCs you could tell any player who asks "You've done around 40 damage to the guy you just bloodied" when they've done 43. It seems metagamey but it's the best option because there's no better way to describe it that both the character and player would understand.

MoelVermillion
2010-09-25, 11:57 AM
You could always just randomize the HP of the monsters a little bit that way the players will be able to tell that the enemy is really hurt but they won't be able to tell that exactly one more hit will down it or on the opposite side that a monster isn't really hurt but not that it still has 90% of its HP left. I don't think it is an issue if the players can roughly tell whether or not they're close to killing a monster because I'm pretty sure adventurers would be able to do this, but it does become a problem when they have exact figures on how much more punishment the monster can take.

Elemental_Elf
2010-09-25, 12:09 PM
Yeah I think I was just taken aback and had a knee jerk reaction against it.

I suppose what bugged me most is how he tracks it. He writes down how much damage each hit caused (so he has a running total). Then based on that data, and the DM declaring the monster is bloodied, he can fairly accurately estimate how much HP the monster has left. Which then informs his decision on how best to slay the monster...

Yeah I guess it isn't so bad, just different from what I am used to.

jiriku
2010-09-25, 12:44 PM
In real life, a fighter would examine his opponent and judge changes in reaction time, whether his opponent is limping or favoring one side, visible wounds and blood, alertness or glassiness of the gaze, and many other subtle signs to judge how much his attacks have injured his opponent.

In D&D, all you have is hp damage inflicted. I'd let it play.

Volos
2010-09-25, 12:49 PM
I can easily see how you feel this is metagaming. As skilled or experienced as a fighter may be, the character himself would have no idea how much damage was being inflicted by the other characters. That is knowledge that is only on the table because the player happens to write down the declared damage. A veteran of the battlefield would be able to track how much damage he has done to his foe, and would be able to guess as to how much longer a fight would go on, but when fighting in a group he would have next to no idea how much damage was being caused by other attacks or the spells of his fellow adventurers. This is a metagame move by the person you have descirbed. Whether or not it is a problem is up to the DM.

Esser-Z
2010-09-25, 01:08 PM
In real life, a fighter would examine his opponent and judge changes in reaction time, whether his opponent is limping or favoring one side, visible wounds and blood, alertness or glassiness of the gaze, and many other subtle signs to judge how much his attacks have injured his opponent.

In D&D, all you have is hp damage inflicted. I'd let it play.

Yes, exactly.


Not quite, Wolfgang. A good combatant would be able to see how much harm the foe took from other's attacks, too. He should be able to tell 'oh hey, that fireball hurt it a lot' or 'its really limping since the rogue hit it' or similar.

The players do not know the total HP of the monster, especially not if you use randomized HP. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with them knowing how much they have dealt.

AslanCross
2010-09-25, 06:10 PM
It's a bit metagamey, but I don't think it's as bad as "YOU CAN'T DO THAT, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE MONSTER MANUAL SAYS."

I've also had players estimate AC, which was annoying at first, but eventually it helps speed things up when they know their attacks won't hit.

If you want to deter it, rolling for HP might help. (Then again, 4E doesn't have hit dice, so I don't know how you'd do it there.)

herrhauptmann
2010-09-25, 06:38 PM
Perhaps start from the listed base HP, then roll, say a d4 per two levels of monster. Each d4, decided separately whether you're going to add or subtract (evens/odds with a separate dice) the d4 from the total.
A bit of effort, but it's a lot more fair than deciding, "I'm going to give THIS brute 10 less HP, and THAT solo +40."

Tengu_temp
2010-09-25, 06:44 PM
I do that myself for the players already in the single 4e game I DM, actually. I don't see how it hurts the game, and it helps both parties see the combat situation more clearly.

Prime32
2010-09-25, 07:25 PM
I've also had players estimate AC, which was annoying at first, but eventually it helps speed things up when they know their attacks won't hit.Likewise, I don't see how "he's good at blocking attacks with his shield, so I'd better focus on accuracy and avoid wild swings" is metagaming.

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-25, 07:35 PM
My players do this a lot and it doesn't bother me at all. Keep in mind that their calculations can be off because it won't take into account resistances or vulnerabilities to certain damage types, and you don't have to tell them how much hp the monster gets back if it gets healed.

Yahzi
2010-09-25, 09:36 PM
I tell the players in advance how many hit points the monsters have.

/shrug

awa
2010-09-25, 09:42 PM
its not the end of the world besides several powers only work if enemy hit points are under a certain threshold with out making an effort to estimate the enemies hit points they would be mostly useless

Emperor Tippy
2010-09-25, 09:52 PM
Your players don't do this regularly? AC, vulnerabilities, HP, my players (and I, as a player) keep track of all of it to the best of our ability.

When the DM used home brewed monsters regularly, we would capture them, heal them up, and test all kinds of different things on them so that we would know their resistances, immunities, AC, stats, etc. if we ever ran into that type again. It's just smart adventuring.

Although it did get to the point where the DM just created a spell with 10 minute casting time (and touch range) that provided basically the MM entry/character sheet for the target.

Zhalath
2010-09-26, 12:37 AM
My players always track AC, attack accuracy, resistances/immunities, and occasionally damage output. Frankly, I think it's fine, as someone with combat experience (most PCs) should be able to figure out the conditions of a monster.

If it's bothering you, you could always make them bluff being bloodied or change the bloodied threshold. For attack and damage, they can use Power Attack, or stop using Power Attack (or whatever the 4e equivalent is).

When your players start putting the puzzle together, start changing the pieces.

Cerlis
2010-09-26, 12:52 AM
I dont much like it either but it makes sense. A skilled fighter can know if they or another is skilled, quick and experienced enough to injure an enemy (Tracking AC) and overtime figure "ok these huminoids are probably mildly injured(different sets of 1-2 dmg attacks) if they have a few cuts, and can figure someone bleeding all over from deeper cuts might(Several medium sized pieces of dmg) ..say, be as injured as someone who got a sword through the leg(one good crit)

buuuut....i'd just try to randomize it. Pick the kobold in the middle and give him 4 more hp. Maybe this wolf is the same as the others but has 5ft more movement. blah blah.its alot of work but you dont need to plan it. I think in my last campaign if i didnt want someone to get one shotted i treated them ask going to 1 or 2 instead of 0 enough to reward a player with an easy kill and a show of their power but make em not seem like paper bags.

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 12:54 AM
My viewpoint: Any kind of math you can do with publicly available information is not metagaming, and the players have no reason to be prohibited from doing it. If you don't want your players working with the numbers you tell them, then don't tell them the numbers.

Vangor
2010-09-26, 01:12 AM
All of my encounters are unique, generally, meaning the time spent to calculate damage will work for about five enemies, a few of which you're facing right now. Certainly in a few instances you can determine the most effective route or resources to place into finishing an enemy, but in most instances for my campaigns are not gaining much. The only caveat I would say is if you are using a character not too intelligent or perceptive, as in 8s or below in Int or Wis, you are metagaming too heavily. At least a small investment in those would give me reason to say, "You can pay attention to the subtle cues of pain and weariness in your enemies and deduce about how hurt they all are." Otherwise, this is somewhat the party face rolling well to receive an audience only for the 6 Cha Barbarian to dialogue and receive help from someone.

Zaq
2010-09-26, 01:30 AM
I'm not really sure what the issue is here, to be honest. What difference does it make if he keeps track of how much HP a monster has eaten?

BobVosh
2010-09-26, 01:38 AM
I keep a running track mentally to about the nearest 10 of damage we do. It is just something I do now since DMing a lot.

Never really thought of it as metagaming.

FelixG
2010-09-26, 03:46 AM
I keep a running track mentally to about the nearest 10 of damage we do. It is just something I do now since DMing a lot.

Never really thought of it as metagaming.

Thats because its not metagaming, its being tactical :P

I often keep track of enemies HP as well along with allies so i know at a glance how well/badly the battle is going so i can start to edge toward the door :P

Susano-wo
2010-09-26, 03:51 AM
I agree that its a bit metagamey, since you wouldn't be able to tell how with that degree of granularity how beat up the monster does. However, as someone said, in DnD you don't have any of the normal means a combatant would assess the condition of the enemy, so its not a big deal. Though to make things a little more unpredictable, varying the HP would probably serve your purpose.

Incidentally, as far as not knowing when an enemy is bloodied: My 4E DM tells us when they are bloodied, and usually describe really messed up foes as "begging for death." Which seems to work fine

KillianHawkeye
2010-09-26, 04:04 AM
usually describe really messed up foes as "begging for death."

Is that a metaphor? Or are they literally begging for death? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

Susano-wo
2010-09-26, 04:08 AM
no metaphorically, when we ask him if they are pretty messed up, and they are nearly dead, he says "They're begging for death" (sometimes for the sweet release of death ^ ^)

No, the vicious Gnolls are not actually begging for death :D

HunterOfJello
2010-09-26, 04:49 AM
if it really annoys you, start rolling damage yourself behind the screen



otherwise, just randomize your monsters hp between their minimum and maximum all the time so that taking track of damage won't really help much

I allow my players to use Sense Motive to determine how hurt an enemy looks. This, of course, is based on their check and the anatomy of the enemy.

awa
2010-09-26, 11:26 AM
another option is a heal check to determine how badly hurt they are.