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View Full Version : [d20r, Classes and Magic] The Sorceror and Bladeweaver, v2.0



Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 12:18 PM
NOTE: I did not write this new version: a dedicated fan and occasional adviser for d20r provided this new updated version. I have done some mild editing (mostly clarity and formatting), but it is largely as-is. If the author chooses to come forth, that is up to him: otherwise, he shall remain anonymous, but we will work off of his basis to see if we can come up with a better chassis for the Spellweaving system.


The Sorceror
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Seeds Known
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Spellweaving, Living Spellseed Familiar, Secrets | 1
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Improved Spellweaving | 1
3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | Bonus Feat, Spell Shielding +1 | 1
4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | - | 1
5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | - | 2
6th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Spell Shielding +2 | 2
7th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Bonus Feat | 2
8th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +6 | Improved Channeling | 2
9th | +4 | +3 | +3 | +6 | Spell Shielding +3 | 3
10th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | - | 3
11th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Bonus Feat | 3
12th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8 | Spell Shielding +4 | 3
13th | +6/+1 | +4 | +4 | +8 | - | 4
14th | +7/+2 | +4 | +4 | +9 | Improved Secrets | 4
15th | +7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +9 | Spell Shielding +5, Bonus Feat | 4
16th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 | - | 4
17th | +8/+3 | +5 | +5 | +10 | - | 5
18th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | Spell Shielding +6 | 5
19th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | Bonus Feat | 5
20th | +10/+5 | +6 | +6 | +12 | Unleashed Seed | 5[/table]

HD: d4

Prowess: 2 per level

Skills: A sorceror uses the Mage skill set and chooses one other set.

Proficiencies: A sorceror is proficient with all simple weapons, with one weapon group, and with light armor, but not shields.

Seeds: A first-level sorceror knows one seed from the list below and gains a new seed at fifth level and every four levels after that (at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th). A sorceror uses these seeds to craft spells using the Spellweaving ability, below. Each seed has a number of different abilities available for purchase at a certain point value, as well as having a fundamental saving throw type.

Spellweaving (Su): As a standard action, a sorceror can craft and cast a spell. By activating this ability, the sorceror immediately gains a number of Spellweave Points (SP) equal to 3 plus their sorceror level. These points may be immediately spent upon weaving a spell from the seeds a sorceror knows. Any points left over at the end of the sorceror's turn dissipate harmlessly.

When crafting a spell, a sorcerer must first decide between crafting an Exertion or an Imbuement. Exertions are attack or utility spells that affect the outside world while Imbuements are enhancements the sorcerer gives himself. A sorcerer cannot craft an Imbuement and an Exertion in the same round.

Next, a sorcerer must choose the abilities to cast. These are drawn from the abilities listed under each spell seed. A sorceror may purchase any number of abilities from seeds he knows as long as he can afford their total cost. Any combination is possible, as long as the sorceror knows the correct seeds and has enough SP.

All spells affect a single target within the sorceror's line of effect, up to a distance of 25' plus 5' per caster level. However, spells can be augmented with the shape secrets. (See below.)

A spell can only apply one saving throw. If it applies more than one, the more expensive Seed's save takes precedence. If the costs are equal between multiple Seeds, the sorcerer chooses which save the target(s) has to make. For example, if a sorcerer casts an icy hex cone and targets three gnolls, he decides whether the spell targets the gnolls' Will (from the Hex Seed) or Fortitude (from the Ice Seed) saves. Since gnolls are stupid, he chooses Will and the trio are forced to make a Will save or suffer the full effect of both Seeds.

Casting a spell in this fashion provokes an attack of opportunity. The save DC for a spell cast in this fashion is 10 + 1/2 the sorceror's level + his Charisma modifier. Unless otherwise noted, the range on a sorceror’s spell using this ability is 25’ plus 5’ per sorceror level.

Spellweaving is affected by arcane spell failure chance. A sorceror wearing light armor and not using a shield may ignore his armor's spell failure chance.

As a swift action, a sorcerer may maintain an imbuement cast in the previous round, gaining an additional round of the same effect. Doing so prevents him from using his Spellweaving ability for the round.

Seed Secret (Ex): A sorcerer may augment his exertions with Secrets, additional abilities available to all seeds. By paying the cost associated with the desired Secret (see the list below,) a sorcerer may change a fundamental aspect of their spell, including size, number of targets or potency. For all effects, use the smaller of the two given values.

Living Spellseed Familiar: At first level, a sorceror obtains a living spellseed familiar. This living spellseed familiar is a normal creature of its type (according to the living spellseed familiar template) except that it must be a seed that the sorceror knows. As a sorceror only knows one seed at first level, the living spellseed familiar therefore must utilize that seed.

As a standard action, a sorcerer may subsume their living spellseed familiar, destroying it, to regain half of their total hit points or a number of hit points equal to the familiar's current total (whichever is lower.) A subsumed familiar cannot be re-obtained until the following morning.

The living spellseed familiar also increases in power according to the sorceror's spellweaver level, as shown on the following table:

{table=head]Caster Level | Bonus HD | Deflection AC Bonus | Special
1-3 | +0 | +0 | Alertness, Improved Evasion, Telepathic Link
4-7 | +2 | +1 | Speak With Living Spellseeds
8-10 | +4 | +2 | Bonus Seed
11-13 | +6 | +3 | Spell Resistance
14-16 | +8 | +4 | Bonus Seed
17-19 | +10 | +5 | -
20+ | +12 | +6 | Bonus Seed[/table]

Bonus HD: These are bonus Avatar HD, and as such provide d8 HD, base attack bonus equal to 3/4 their HD (like a cleric), all Medium saves, and training in the Perceptive monstrous skill set and the Mage skill set.

Deflection AC Bonus: This is a deflection bonus to the living spellseed's AC.

Alertness: While a living spellseed familiar is within 5' of its master, both the spellseed and its master gain a +3 bonus on Awareness checks.

Improved Evasion: A living spellseed familiar has the improved evasion ability. See the rogue class feature of the same name.

Telepathic Link: Living spellseed familiars that are within 100' of their master may communicate with them telepathically.

Speak with Living Spellseeds: A living spellseed with this ability can communicate with other living spellseeds within 50' telepathically.

Bonus Seed: Each time a living spellseed gains this ability, it gains access to an additional seed that its master knows. It may utilize this seed while using its spellweaving ability, but does not gain any other properties of the seed (such as subtypes or extra damage on attacks).

Spell Resistance: A spellseed with this ability gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + twice it's HD.

Improved Spellweaving: At 2nd level, a sorcerer's influence over his power intensifies. He may add his Charisma modifier to his SP pool when using his Spellweave ability.

Spell Shielding (Su): A sorceror is well-versed in the inner workings of magic and therefore is better able to defend himself against them. At 3rd level, the sorceror gains a +1 bonus on saves versus arcane spells, cartomancy, and spellwoven spells. This bonus does not apply against spell-like or supernatural abilities that mimic spells, divine magic, or psionics, nor does it apply against items that mimic spells--it does, however, apply against items that cast spells, like a wand. This bonus increases by 1 every three levels thereafter (to +2 at 6th, +3 at 9th, +4 at 12th, +5 at 15th, and +6 at 18th).

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), the sorceror gains a bonus feat chosen from the following list: Dodge, Combat Casting, Extra Seed, Intelligent Targeting , Perceptive Spellweaving , Reflexive Spellweaving, Residual Spellweaving, Seed Focus , Skill Focus, Weapon Focus. He must still meet all of the feat's prerequisites.

Improved Channeling: At 8th level, a sorcerer gains control over a continuous effect. As a swift action, a sorcerer may maintain an imbuement cast in the previous round, gaining an additional round of the same effect.

Improved Secrets: At 14th level, the potency of a sorcerer's secrets increases. When using a Secret, he may choose between either of the two given values.

Unleashed Seed (Su): At 20th level, a sorcerer unlocks the purest essence of one of their chosen seeds. As a standard action, he may subsume his living spellseed familiar in order to gain a temporary boost or ability listed under the selected seed's "Unleashed" heading.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 12:19 PM
The Bladeweaver
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Seeds Known
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +1 | Spellweaving | 1
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +1 | Armored Spellweaving (Light Shields) | 1
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +2 | Improved Spellweaving | 1
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +2 | Spellwoven Strike | 1
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +3 | Spell Shielding +1 | 2
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +3 | Weavespear | 2
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +3 | Secrets | 2
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +4 | Armored Spellweaving (Medium) | 2
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +4 | -| 2
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +5 | Spell Shielding +2 | 3
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +5 | Improved Spellwoven Strike | 3
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +6 | - | 3
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +6 | - |3
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +6 | Armored Spellweaving (Heavy) | 3
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +7 | Spell Shielding +3 | 4
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +7 | Improved Weavespear | 4
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +8 | Greater Spellwoven Strike | 4
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +8 | - | 4
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +9 | - | 4
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +9 | Greater Weavespear, Spell Shielding +4 | 5[/table]

HD: d8

Prowess: 4 per level

Skills: A bladeweaver uses the Adventurer skill set and chooses one other set

Proficiencies: A bladeweaver is proficient with all simple weapons, with two weapon groups, and with all armor and shields (but not tower shields).

Seeds: A first-level bladeweaver knows one seed and gains a new seed at fifth level and every five levels after that (at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). A bladeweaver uses these seeds to craft spells using the Spellweaving ability, below. Each seed has a number of different abilities available for purchase at a certain point value, as well as having a fundamental shape and saving throw type.

Spellweaving (Su): As a standard action, a bladeweaver can craft and cast a spell. By activating this ability, the bladeweaver immediately gains a number of Spellweave Points (SP) equal to 2 plus their bladeweaver level. These points may be immediately spent upon weaving a spell from the seeds a bladeweaver knows. Any points left over at the end of the bladeweaver's turn dissipate harmlessly.

When crafting a spell, a bladeweaver must first decide between crafting an Exertion or an Imbuement. Exertions are attack or utility spells that affect the outside world while Imbuements are enhancements the bladeweaver gives himself. A bladeweaver cannot craft an Imbuement and an Exertion in the same round.

Next, a bladeweaver must choose the abilities to cast. These are drawn from the abilities listed under each spell seed. A bladeweaver may purchase any number of abilities from seeds he knows as long as he can afford their total cost. Any combination is possible, as long as the bladeweaver knows the correct seeds and has enough SP.

All Exertions affect a single target within the bladeweaver's line of effect, up to a distance of 25' plus 5' per caster level. However, Exertions can be augmented with the shape secrets. (See below.)

A spell can only apply one saving throw. If it applies more than one, the more expensive Seed's save takes precedence. If the costs are equal between multiple Seeds, the bladeweaver chooses which save the target(s) has to make. For example, if a bladeweaver casts an icy hex cone and targets three gnolls, he decides whether the spell targets the gnolls' Will (from the Hex Seed) or Fortitude (from the Ice Seed) saves. Since gnolls are stupid, he chooses Will and the trio are forced to make a Will save or suffer the full effect of both Seeds.

Casting a spell in this fashion provokes an attack of opportunity. The save DC for a spell cast in this fashion is 10 + 1/2 the bladeweaver's level + his Charisma modifier.

Spellweaving is affected by arcane spell failure chance. A bladeweaver wearing light armor and not using a shield may ignore his armor's spell failure chance.

As a swift action, a bladeweaver may maintain an imbuement cast in the previous round, gaining an additional round of the same effect. Doing so prevents him from using his Spellweaving ability for the round.

Armored Spellweaving (Ex): Starting at second level, a bladeweaver begins to ignore the effects of armor on his spellweaving. He may use light shields without chance of spell failure. At 8th level, this ability improves to include medium armor. At 14th level, this ability improves further to include heavy armor and heavy shields. A bladeweaver never gains the ability to ignore the spell failure chance from a tower shield.

Improved Spellweaving (Ex): At 3rd level, a bladeweaver expands his control over magic. When determining his SP, he adds his Charisma modifier to the total.

Spellwoven Strike (Su): At fourth level, a bladeweaver can channel his spells through his melee attacks, allowing him the ability to damage a foe with his weapon and cast a spell at the same time. When activating this ability (a standard action), the bladeweaver gains SP as if he had activated his spellweaving class feature and casts a spell as normal. However, if he casts an Exertion, he changes the shape of the spell to "melee attack with weapon". Should this attack miss, the Exertion is wasted. Should the attack land, the target is damaged from the weapon as normal and also suffers the effects of the exertion. If the spell normally has a save against damage, attacking in this fashion removes it. Saves against non-damage effects are unchanged. This ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Spell Shielding (Su): A bladeweaver is well-versed in the inner workings of magic and therefore is better able to defend himself against them. At 5th level, the bladeweaver gains a +1 bonus on saves versus arcane spells, cartomancy, and spellwoven spells. This bonus does not apply against spell-like or supernatural abilities that mimic spells, divine magic, or psionics, nor does it apply against items that mimic spells--it does, however, apply against items that cast spells, like a wand. This bonus increases by 1 every five levels thereafter (to +2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th).

Weavespear (Su): At sixth level, a bladeweaver can channel his spells through a melee attack and also use them to cause his weapon to attack with a mind of its own. He flings his weapon forth, imbued with woven energies, and it flies out and returns to his grasp.

When activating this ability (a full-round action), the bladeweaver gains SP as if he had activated his spellweaving class feature and casts a spell as normal. However, if he chooses to cast an Exertion, he changes the shape of the spell to "30' line". All creatures within the area of effect must make a saving throw. If they fail the save, they are affected as if they were struck by the weapon and the spell.

Seed Secret (Ex): A bladeweaver may augment his Exertions with Secrets, additional abilities available to all seeds. By paying the cost associated with the desired Secret (see the list below,) a bladeweaver may change a fundamental aspect of their spell, including size, number of targets or potency. For all effects, use the smaller of the two given values.

Improved Spellwoven Strike: This ability functions as the Spellwoven Strike ability, except that the bladeweaver can cast a spell as an attack action. Only one spell may be cast this way per round, but if used as part of a full attack action, an Exertion's effects apply to all subsequent attacks.

Improved Weavespear: This ability functions as the Weavespear ability, but can be used as a standard action and creates a 45' line.

Greater Spellwoven Strike: This ability functions as the Spellwoven Strike and Improved Spellwoven Strike abilities, except that all spell effects last until your next turn. As such, they inflict their effects on targets you strike with an attack of opportunity. The bladeweaver also improves the size of damage dice from their spell effects while using their Spellwoven Strike, Improved Spellwoven Strike, or Greater Spellwoven Strike abilities by 1 (from 1d4 to 1d6, from 1d6 to 1d8, etc).

Greater Weavespear: This ability functions as Improved Weavespear, but is usable as an attack-equivalent action (so that one can perform a full-attack with this ability). The size of the line effect is also increased to 60'

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 12:22 PM
Seeds, Secrets, and Feats
Seeds
Air
Save: Will half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain a +1 shield bonus to AC
8SP: Gain a +2 shield bonus to AC, affected as if by a feather fall spell
16SP: Gain a +4 shield bonus to AC, doubled against ranged attacks, +30' fly speed, average maneuverability
24SP: Gain a +6 shield bonus to AC, doubled against ranged attacks, +60' fly speed, good maneuverability
32SP: Gain a +8 shield bonus to AC, doubled against ranged attacks, +120' fly speed, perfect maneuverability

Exert:
4SP: Mage hand effect
8SP: Gust of wind effect starting in target's square
12SP: 30 foot cone gust of wind effect starting in target's square
18SP: +3d6 nonlethal damage, 30 foot cone-shaped gust of wind effect starting in target's square
24SP: +6d6 nonlethal damage, 60 foot line-shaped gust of wind effect starting in target's square, enemies considered 1 size smaller for effects of spell
32SP: +9d6 nonlethal damage, 60 foot cone-shaped gust of wind effect starting in target's square, enemies considered 2 sizes smaller for effects of spell

Unleashed: You gain an elder air elemental's whirlwind ability for one round per caster level.

Acid
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist acid/5
8SP: Gain resist acid 10, +1d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist acid 20, +2d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to acid, +4d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, emit a cloud of fumes that sickens all creatures within 5 feet who fail their Fort saves
32SP: Gain immunity to acid, +8d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, emit a cloud of fumes that paralyzes all creatures within 5 feet who fail their Fort saves

Exert:
1SP: +1 acid damage
3SP: +1d6 acid damage
12SP: +4d6 acid damage
18SP: +6d6 acid damage, target's acid resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 acid damage, target's acid resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, half of damage splashes to a random enemy within 5 feet of target
32SP: +12d6 acid damage, takes an additional 12d6 on the following round if they fail the Reflex save

Unleashed: All acid spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)


Earth
Save: Fort half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain a +1 natural armor bonus to AC
8SP: Gain a +2 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks
16SP: Gain a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks, +20 burrow speed
24SP: Gain a +6 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks, +40 burrow speed
32SP: Gain a +8 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks, +60 burrow speed, you cannot be unwillingly moved as long as you remain in contact with the earth

Exert:
4SP: Target's square becomes difficult terrain.
8SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage and becoming difficult terrain.
12SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, dealing 2d6 bludgeoning damage and becoming difficult terrain.
16SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, dealing 4d6 bludgeoning damage and all squares within five feet become difficult terrain. Target must make save or fall prone.
24SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, becoming a geyser. The burst deals 6d6 bludgeoning damage and the water shunts the target to an adjacent square (chosen by sorcerer), with all eight squares around the geyser becoming difficult terrain. Target falls prone if they fail their save.
32SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, becoming a small volcano. The burst deals 8d6 bludgeoning damage and the fiery gases deal an additional 4d6 fire damage to all enemies within 5 feet. All squares within 30 feet become difficult terrain. Target falls prone if they fail their save.

Unleashed: As a move action, you can raise or lower the natural terrain beneath one creature by 30 feet for one round per caster level. The target must make a Reflex save or fall/be thrust upward, taking 3d6 damage per 30 feet moved and become trapped in a pit/on a cliff.


Fire
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist fire 5
8SP: Gain resist fire 10, +1d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist fire 20, +3d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to fire, +6d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
32SP: Gain immunity to fire, +9d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, gain firewalk*

Exert:
1SP: +1 fire damage
3SP: +1d6 fire damage
12SP: +4d6 fire damage, target catches fire on failed Reflex save (2d6 fire damage per round until extinguished)
18SP: +6d6 fire damage, target's fire resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 fire damage, target's fire resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, target catches fire if failed save (4d6 fire damage per round until extinguished)
32SP: +12d6 fire damage, target disintegrates if failed Reflex save and below 0 HP

Unleashed: All fire spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)
Firewalk: You become capable of teleporting between any two open flames within 120 feet of each other. (You must have physical contact with one of the flames to use this ability.)


Force
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: +1 deflection bonus
8SP: +2 deflection bonus
16SP: +4 deflection bonus, DR 5/force
24SP: +6 deflection bonus, DR 10/force
32SP: +8 deflection bonus, DR 20/force

Exert:
1SP: +1 force damage
3SP: +1d4 force damage
12SP: +4d4 force damage
18SP: +6d4 force damage, no save
24SP: +8d4 force damage, no save
32SP: +10d4 force damage, no save

Unleashed: For one round per two caster levels, creatures must make saves against any force spell you cast or be affected by a Magic Missile spell cast by a wizard of your level.


Hex
Save: Will half (round down)

Imbue:
4SP: -1 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you
8SP: -2 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you
16SP: -4 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you, death ward (self only)
24SP: -6 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you, death ward (self only)
32SP: -8 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you, death ward (self only), mind blank

Exert:
3SP: -1 to selected save
6SP: -1 to all saves
12SP: -2 to all saves, -1 to all other rolls
18SP: -3 to all saves, -1 to all other rolls
24SP: -4 to all saves, -2 to all other rolls, target is confused on failed save
32SP: -5 to all saves, -2 to all rolls, target is permanently insane on failed save

Unleashed: Target takes a permanent -6 penalty to all attributes and dice rolls (Will halves, reduces duration to 1 round/caster level). If they fail, they must make another Will save or it becomes a family curse, passing down through the bloodlines until removed by a divine caster with a caster level equal to your own.


Ice
Save: Fort half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist cold 5
8SP: Gain resist cold 10, +1d6 cold damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist cold 20, +2d6 cold damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to cold, +4d6 cold damage and -10 move speed to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
32SP: Gain immunity to cold, +8d6 cold damage and -30 move speed to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, Resist fire 10

Exert:
1SP: +1 cold damage
3SP: +1d6 cold damage
12SP: +4d6 cold damage
18SP: +6d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, is slowed for (Cha mod) rounds if failed save
32SP: +12d6 cold damage, target freezes solid (petrified) permanently if fails save

Unleashed: All cold spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)


Light
Save: Will half

Imbue:
1SP: Emit light as a torch
4SP: Creatures that attack you are affected by faerie fire
8SP: Creatures that attack you are affected by faerie fire, see invisible (as the spell)
16SP: Gain invisibility, see invisible
24SP: Gain improved invisibility, see invisible
32SP: Gain improved invisibility, true seeing

Exert:
1SP: +1 radiant damage
3SP: +1d4 radiant damage
12SP: +4d4 radiant damage, target is dazzled on failed save
18SP: +6d4 radiant damage, target is blinded on failed save
24SP: +8d4 radiant damage, target is fascinated on failed save
32SP: +10d4 radiant damage, target is disintegrated on failed save if HP is below 0

Unleashed: All light spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)


Lightning
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist electricity 5
8SP: Gain resist electricity 10, +1d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist electricity 20, +2d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to electricity, +4d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, half of this damage arcs to one enemy within 20 feet
32SP: Gain immunity to electricity, +8d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, half of this damage arcs to all enemies within 30 feet

Exert:
1SP: +1 electricity damage
3SP: +1d6 electricity damage
12SP: +4d6 electricity damage, target is shaken if failed save
18SP: +6d6 electricity damage, target's electricity resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 electricity damage, target's electricity resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, is dazed for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if failed save
32SP: +12d6 electricity damage, target is stunned if fails save

Unleashed: All electricity spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)


Shadow
Save: Will half

Imbue:
4SP: +5% concealment, gain darkvision
8SP: +10% concealment, gain magical darkvision (see in magical darkness)
16SP: +20% concealment, gain magical darkvision, shadowwalk*
24SP: +30% concealment, gain magical darkvision, shadowwalk, etherealness
32SP: +40% concealment, gain magical darkvision, shadowwalk, etherealness

Exert:
1SP: +1 cold damage
3SP: +1d6 cold damage
12SP: +2d6 cold damage, +2d6 damage
18SP: +3d6 cold damage, +3d6 damage
24SP: +4d6 cold damage, +4d6 damage, target blinded on failed save
32SP: +5d6 cold damage, +5d6 damage, target gets permanent amnesia on failed save

Unleashed: Shadows swarm the area and the sun goes dim, as if an eclipse was occurring. All enemies within the normal range of your spells must make Will saves or become panicked. Success means they are merely frightened instead. All enemy attack rolls suffer a 50% miss chance and a -8 penalty.
*Shadowwalk: as Firewalk (see the Fire seed), except utilizing shadows instead of fire.


Sonic
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist sonic 5
8SP: Gain resist sonic 10, +1d6 sonic damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist sonic 20, +2d6 sonic damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to sonic, +4d6 sonic damage and a silence effect on anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
32SP: Gain immunity to sonic, +8d6 sonic damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, silence all enemies within 10 feet

Exert:
1SP: +1 sonic damage
3SP: +1d6 sonic damage
12SP: +4d6 sonic damage, target is deafened for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
18SP: +6d6 sonic damage, target's sonic resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 sonic damage, target's sonic resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
32SP: +12d6 sonic damage, target is unconscious for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save

Unleashed: All sonic spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)


Water
Save: Fort half

Imbue:
1SP: +1 temporary hp
4SP: Gain 5% concealment
8SP: Gain 10% concealment
12SP: Gain 20% concealment, +20 foot swim speed
16SP: Gain 25% concealment, +30 foot swim speed, water breathing
24SP: Gain 40% concealment, +60 foot swim speed, water breathing, fast healing 2 (up to half total hp)
32SP: Gain 50% concealment, +120 foot swim speed, water breathing, regeneration 3 (up to half total hp)

Exert:
1SP: Purify 1 gallon of water
3SP: +1d4 desiccation damage, shape water in target square as per control water spell
12SP: +4d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes)
18SP: +6d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes), target crumbles into dust if it fails five saves in a row
24SP: +8d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes), target crumbles into dust if it fails three saves in a row
32SP: +12d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes), target must make Fort save or drown

Unleashed: A wall of water forms and crashes down on all enemies within 30 feet, dealing 12d6 bludgeoning damage and carrying them away, dragging all enemies 60 feet in any direction the sorcerer chooses.

Secrets

Ray
-Using this Secret requires an attack roll to hit. On a successful hit, the target does not receive a saving throw in order to reduce the damage, but they still receive a save against the spell's non-damage effects.
*4SP

Line
-All damage is done in a 20 foot (30 foot with Improved Secrets) line. Any additional effect of the spell only applies to one target creature hit by the spell.
*8SP

Cone
-All damage is done in a 20 foot (30 foot with Improved Secrets) foot cone. Any additional effect of the spell only applies to one target creature hit by the spell.
*12SP

Sphere
-All damage is done in a 20 foot (30 foot with Improved Secrets) foot sphere. Any additional effect of the spell only applies to one target creature hit by the spell.
*12SP

Potency
-Increase spell's DC by 1 (2 with Improved Secrets).
*8SP

Twinned
-Deal full damage and effect to two enemies.
*12SP


Feats
Extra Seed
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature, access to at least two seeds

Benefit: You gain the knowledge of a new seed and add it to your seeds known.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, you acquire a new seed, and the Charisma prerequisite increases by 2. A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Intelligent Targeting [Investing]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 15, Spellweaving class feature

Benefit: A sorceror who takes this feat adds his Intelligence modifier to his damage rolls when casting an Exertion using his Spellweaving class feature. This feat does not add additional damage to spells that do not already deal damage.

Investiture: For each three points invested in this feat, increase the extra damage by 1.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Perceptive Spellweaving
Prerequisites: Wisdom 15, Improved Spellweaving class feature, at least one seed secret

Benefit: Your ability to call forth your magic is augmented by your ability to perceive raw magic. You add your Wisdom modifier in addition to your Charisma modifier when determining the number of Spellweave Points you receive when activating your Spellweave ability to create an Imbuement.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Reflexive Spellweaving [Investing]
Prerequisites: Spellweaving class feature, Combat Reflexes, Residual Spellweaving

Benefit: If you have Spellweave Points carrying over to your next turn from your Residual Spellweaving feat, you may utilize them to cast a spell in place of making an attack of opportunity. The spell can only use Spellweaving Points that are stored by your Residual Spellweaving feat. Casting a spell in this fashion consumes one of your attacks of opportunity and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Investiture: For each three points you invest in this feat, you gain one temporary Spellweaving Point when casting a spell as an attack of opportunity. A point gained in this fashion may immediately be spent to augment a spell further.

Normal: You may only cast spells when activating your Spellweaving class feature.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Residual Spellweaving
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature

Benefit: When you have Spellweave Points left over after casting a spell, you may choose to have up to three of them carry over until the end of your next turn.

Normal: Spellweave Points disappear at the end of your turn.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Seed Focus
Prerequisites: Charisma 15, Spellweaving class feature, knowledge of at least one seed

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a seed you have access to. When applying secrets to a spell cast solely with this seed, you may halve the SP cost of that secret. Furthermore, the DC of any spell you cast using the chosen seed increases by 1.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-25, 01:11 PM
Oh, I likey!

This has lots and lots of potential, with the only problem being required spells and what not. Though, as long as you have the seeds to cast them, it should be possible to just take them anyway.

May I suggest an additional seed?

Temporal
Imbue: Give bonus to attack and defence due to seeing the future, later on may be able to get bonus to knowledge checks
Exert: Untyped damage as you toss the enemy through the rivers of time, forcing his body to re-live damage he has felt before, can age/de-age targets struck.
Unleash:Dunno, something like time stop but more powerful, actually letting you use abilities in the meantime (but only other temporal abilities).

Dimensional
Imbue: Teleportation, plain and simple
Exert: Untyped damage (yes I know again) because you can more or less cut him to pieces. Secondary effect daze or stun, forcing the poor sap to feel from two seriously different locations.
Unleash: Open an unstable vortex through space and dimension and simply toss people that you don't like inside, forcing them to endure immense damage as you don't actually prevent them from the rigors of dimension-hopping five or six planes at the same time as well as possible elemental damage by letting the elemental plains leak into the vortex.

Well, these are ideas anyway, it's up to you to see if and how you implement them. Good job in making a nice alternate casting system that's actually usable and logical. Only other system like this is wordcasting, but that's both highly complicated and unreliable. Anyway, good luck to see how to do this.

NineThePuma
2010-09-25, 01:36 PM
Blade weaver has copy-paste error in spell secrets. Weapon proficiencies have a typo for BW.

Could you link to the Spell Seed Familiar template?

Aside from all that jazz, looks good, though I wish Sorc got its abilities to last longer. Ah well.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 01:38 PM
Could you link to the Spell Seed Familiar template?

Look here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104101)

NineThePuma
2010-09-25, 01:42 PM
Is there any way to deal Positive (or negative) energy damage, for use with that ability?

Also, that ability allows the familiar to cast spells as well?

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 01:43 PM
Is there any way to deal Positive (or negative) energy damage, for use with that ability?

Also, that ability allows the familiar to cast spells as well?

There is no positive or negative energy damage in d20r. It's replaced with radiant and entropic damage.

The familiar can weave its own spells, yes, but they are weaker than the sorceror's. Note that the living spellseed needs a revamp to fully match this new version.

NineThePuma
2010-09-25, 02:02 PM
Oh, noticing: Shadow deals extra damage of cold and untyped values. Unless I misread, is there any way to get Entropic Damage?

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 02:03 PM
Not for spellweavers at this time.

IcarusWings
2010-09-25, 02:04 PM
I'd say they get too few seeds known, but I'm not too good on balancing.

Draz74
2010-09-25, 02:52 PM
Imbue effects only last for a round, right? I have a hard time seeing most of them ever getting much use in combat. (Some are obviously not useless, like Air for all-day out-of-combat flight ability for a mid/high-level Sorcerer. But in combat ... are they really worth it, ever?)

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 02:56 PM
You can maintain an Imbuement as a move action, or at high levels as a swift action. Honestly, I'm thinking about making it swift to maintain, high-levels swift to maintain retain spellweaving.

Draz74
2010-09-25, 03:04 PM
You can maintain an Imbuement as a move action, or at high levels as a swift action. Honestly, I'm thinking about making it swift to maintain, high-levels swift to maintain retain spellweaving.

Now you're talking! Though you should run it by the skilled powergamers to make sure it won't break anything.

I would also wish for a way to affect one's party with Imbuements, even if spending a Feat (in addition to extra SP) was required.

Fako
2010-09-25, 03:34 PM
Spellweaving (Su): As a standard action, a sorceror can craft and cast a spell. By activating this ability, the sorceror immediately gains a number of Spellweave Points (SP) equal to 3 plus their sorceror level. These points may be immediately spent upon weaving a spell from the seeds a sorceror knows. Any points left over at the end of the sorceror's turn dissipate harmlessly.



Spellweaving (Su): As a standard action, a bladeweaver can craft and cast a spell. By activating this ability, the bladeweaver immediately gains a number of Spellweave Points (SP) equal to 2 plus their bladeweaver level. These points may be immediately spent upon weaving a spell from the seeds a bladeweaver knows. Any points left over at the end of the bladeweaver's turn dissipate harmlessly.


Perceptive Spellweaving
Prerequisites: Wisdom 15, Spellweaving class feature, at least one seed secret

Benefit: Your ability to call forth your magic is augmented by your ability to perceive raw magic. You add your Wisdom modifier in addition to your Charisma modifier when determining the number of Spellweave Points you receive when activating your Spellweave ability to create an Imbuement.

Special: A sorceror may choose this feat as one of his sorceror bonus feats.

The spellweaving ability descriptions only list a flat amount plus class level for SP, but Perceptive Spellweaving gives you your Wisdom modifier in addition to your Charisma modifier. Do you still get your Charisma modifier to your SP by default, or was it removed in the new version? If not, how are you planning to have a character get 32 SP to spend on a spell?

thegurullamen
2010-09-25, 03:49 PM
The spellweaving ability descriptions only list a flat amount plus class level for SP, but Perceptive Spellweaving gives you your Wisdom modifier in addition to your Charisma modifier. Do you still get your Charisma modifier to your SP by default, or was it removed in the new version? If not, how are you planning to have a character get 32 SP to spend on a spell?

Improved Spellweaving takes care of that for both classes at early levels.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-25, 03:57 PM
Improved Spellweaving takes care of that for both classes at early levels.

Should still probably fix the feat text a little. Hold on.

*FIX'D*

Fako
2010-09-25, 05:10 PM
Improved Spellweaving takes care of that for both classes at early levels.

Ah, missed that X_x;

I also can't seem to figure out how to get to 32 SP by level 20 without a pretty impressive ability modifier. Best I've come up with is 3 (class) + 20 (levels) + 3 (residual) + 6 (charisma). Are they meant as epic effects?

Finally, can you use SP to purchase the same ability on a seed multiple times? (Such as spending 6 SP to deal 2d6 fire damage...)

thegurullamen
2010-09-25, 05:16 PM
I suppose for clarity's sake I'll just come out and say I wrote this class. (Glad to see it's getting a warm reception, by the way.) If you have any questions behind the underlying logic of the classes or want to know why something is the way it is, go ahead and ask. I'll try to be as informative and forthcoming as possible.

Alright. Onto the new!

New Seeds
Time
Save: Will half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain a + 1 dodge bonus to AC.
8SP: Gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC, OR a +2 insight bonus to attack rolls.
16SP: Gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC, OR a +4 insight bonus to attack rolls.
24SP: Gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC, OR a +6 insight bonus to attack rolls and acts as if affected by Haste.
32SP: Gain a +8 dodge bonus to AC, OR a +8 insight bonus to attack rolls and act as if affected by Haste. If a time-related spell or effect (Haste, Slow, Time Stop, etc.) is cast within this spell's range, you may choose whether or not to be affected by it as well.

Exert:
3SP: +1d6 nonlethal damage
6SP: +2d6 nonlethal damage
12SP: Target retakes the last instance of damage inflicted to them
18SP: Target retakes the last instance of damage inflicted to them, is slowed on a failed save
24SP: Target retakes all damage done to him in previous round
32SP: Target retakes all damage done to him in previous round, becomes decrepit, taking a -4 penalty to all physical attributes.

Unleashed: You rend the fabric of time in the area, rippping causality a new one. Targets of your spells must make Will saves each time they are affected or take 1/2 of the damage again the following round. Your imbuements last a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier and do not need to be channeled. This ability lasts one round per caster level.


Teleport
Save: Will half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain ability to teleport as a move action. +5' teleport range
8SP: +10' teleport range
16SP: +20' teleport range
24SP: +30' teleport range, as a standard action, you may cast Plane Shift or Teleport
32SP: +60' teleport range, as a full round action, you may cast Greater Teleportation

Exert:
1SP: +1 damage
3SP: +1d4 damage
6SP: +2d4 damage
12SP: +4d4 damage
18SP: +6d4 damage, target is shaken on a failed save.
24SP: +8d4 damage, target is dazed on a failed save.
32SP: +10d4 damage, target stunned on failed save. For every 2 points by which they fail their save, they can be teleported 5 feet in any direction the caster wishes. Creatures moved in this way may not be teleported into solid matter.

Unleashed: You rend the interdimensional boundary in the immediate area, letting every dimension bleed into your current position. Every round, each enemy within normal casting range takes 1d6 damage of each acid, anarchic, axiomatic, cold, electricity, entropic, fire, radiant, and sonic damage. This effect lasts for one round per caster level. As a standard action, the sorcerer may force one target in the spell's range to make a Will save or fall into the void, taking 10d6 damage and being shunted out of existence for 1d4 rounds. After that time, they reappear in their original spot with no recollection of the lost time. Performing this action ends the spell.

Two new seeds based on Soulblazer87's suggestions. I'd intended to get them onto the original list but had trouble figuring out a way to do it. Hit these two with the hammers of logic and criticism and see how well they stand up.

I'm still working on a couple of different seeds, but I'm low on ideas. What do you guys think would go well with each of the following:

Law
Chaos
Holy
Unholy
Drain
Dispel
Speed

Keep in mind that imbuements need to be powerful but short lived and self-only buffs. Exertions have to be scalable; it's easy to come up with high powered ideas for each of these, but figuring out useful low-level (and at-will) purposes for each is where I'm having the most trouble. Ideas?


I also can't seem to figure out how to get to 32 SP by level 20 without a pretty impressive ability modifier. Best I've come up with is 3 (class) + 20 (levels) + 3 (residual) + 6 (charisma). Are they meant as epic effects?

Finally, can you use SP to purchase the same ability on a seed multiple times? (Such as spending 6 SP to deal 2d6 fire damage...)

A) Not really. Early on in the design, I went with the most tweaked out ability modifier ranges to show me where the boundaries of the class would be. Ideally, 32SP should be possible at 19th level, 18th for ubertwinks. However, the reality of the game is probably not going to reflect this, so the numbers might need an adjustment or two before all is said and done.

B) Yes.

Fako
2010-09-25, 05:36 PM
A) Makes sense, just thought I'd ask. I have a player looking at a Phoe-Kun, and I showed her the first Bladeweaver, which she liked... hoping to know this one before she starts asking questions.

B) Thought so, but just wanted to make sure...

Found another question... why do the Spellweaver and the Sorceror have the same amount of Seeds known? You'd think the pure casting class would get more options than the hybrid, rather than just getting them at earlier levels.

I have a few ideas for the list, kept with the spoiler style:
Law
Chaos

-For imbuements, a deflection bonus might work, changing to a miss chance at higher levels.
-Exertions could cause random elemental damage, providing a percentage chance of either losing their next action or Insanity effects at higher levels.
Holy

-Protection against spells from Evil casters might be in order, but I know that Fax is trying to remove alignment from most of the crunch, so that might be out of place. Perhaps sacred bonuses against effects from Devils or Undead, but that might make it too "niche-worthy" for most players.
-Exertions could generate healing. I know that provides unlimited out-of-combat healing, but any party with a d20r Cleric has access to it as well. This one would just be faster.
Unholy

-I can't think of much for the Imbuements, other than protection from Radiant damage, or a profane bonus to abilities...
-For Exertions, I'd suggest temporary animation rather than damage, allowing them to create "allies" on the fly. Perhaps add a feat allowing them to siphon off some of their SP each turn to fuel the undead, while they still cast (reduced power) spells?
Drain

-Imbuements for this one could cause a penalty to attacks due to siphoned strength, with the Sorceror gaining a bonus (maxed by amount of SP spent) to attack rolls.
-Exertions for this... probably siphoning off health at low levels, with the option of temporary ability damage/boost at higher levels?
Dispel
Speed

-Imbuements could provide bonuses to AC, extra attacks, or extra movement, depending on the cost...
-For Exertions though, I can't help but think it might be fun to have the ability to mess with initiative. Allow them to spend SP to slide someone up or down the initiative list a certain number of ticks... Effects like this are already in d20r last I checked (see Ranger's Combat Rhythm)... key words being "last I checked"... might've changed.


Personally, I like it and want to see it in action. If we do use it, I'll let you know how it goes...

thegurullamen
2010-09-25, 05:53 PM
A) Makes sense, just thought I'd ask. I have a player looking at a Phoe-Kun, and I showed her the first Bladeweaver, which she liked... hoping to know this one before she starts asking questions.

B) Thought so, but just wanted to make sure...

Found another question... why do the Spellweaver and the Sorceror have the same amount of Seeds known? You'd think the pure casting class would get more options than the hybrid, rather than just getting them at earlier levels.

Personally, I like it and want to see it in action. If we do use it, I'll let you know how it goes...

My idea for the bladeweaver was to grant them access to the penultimate abilities (24SP or so around level 18) and keep the 32SP abilities for the sorcs alone.

The seeds known thing is because of the very small pool of seeds written at the moment. If/when the pool of seeds grows, expect the sorcerer's Seeds Known to grow as well. (Of course, this probably means I should remove that self-stacking portion of the Extra Seed feat.)

Can't wait to hear about the classes' playstyles!

Tael
2010-09-25, 06:22 PM
Ah, missed that X_x;

I also can't seem to figure out how to get to 32 SP by level 20 without a pretty impressive ability modifier. Best I've come up with is 3 (class) + 20 (levels) + 3 (residual) + 6 (charisma). Are they meant as epic effects?

Finally, can you use SP to purchase the same ability on a seed multiple times? (Such as spending 6 SP to deal 2d6 fire damage...)

Wait, your 20th level characters have 22 in their only important stat? :smallconfused:

I mean, it's expected that you optimize much, but my casters normally have a 22 at 4th level. I would expect a mildly optimized 20th level character to have 32, with a modifier of +11, giving you a total of 37.

EDIT: Also, sorcerers really can't do enough damage at high levels to be dedicated blasters. I would give the ability to separate the pure damage from the debilitating/utility effects, so that they can specialize in something at high levels, and actually do more than blast at low levels.

Fako
2010-09-25, 07:07 PM
Wait, your 20th level characters have 22 in their only important stat? :smallconfused:

I mean, it's expected that you optimize much, but my casters normally have a 22 at 4th level. I would expect a mildly optimized 20th level character to have 32, with a modifier of +11, giving you a total of 37.


I was assuming no magic items, as a class should be able to use its primary feature without them (see Truenamer). Also, being d20r, I don't know how readily available a Charisma increasing item will be. If they're readily available, then you're right; that 32 isn't so bad after including them.

Just going from base, we can assume that the player put 18 in Cha at creation, chose Satyr for race, and then put a point at each opportunity. Even with that, we only have 18 + 2 + 5 = 25. A +7 modifier, leaving the 32 SP ability useable at level 19, assuming you take Residual Spellweaving.

thegurullamen
2010-09-25, 08:02 PM
EDIT: Also, sorcerers really can't do enough damage at high levels to be dedicated blasters. I would give the ability to separate the pure damage from the debilitating/utility effects, so that they can specialize in something at high levels, and actually do more than blast at low levels.

Numbers are maleable. I had no idea what damage a dedicated blaster should be capable of at-will, so I went with my gut. If you've got some ideas about what the numbers should look like, go ahead and post them.

Separating the damage from the effects seems good on paper, but when you're looking at a system this modular, what you end up with is nine Save-or-Sucks hitting the same target at once with nary a damage point in sight. From my experience, it's too hard to keep everything in check so that you don't end up with unplayably dull or unplayable ubergod sorcerers, so the effects are tied down to a level-dependent variable.

IcarusWings
2010-09-26, 03:59 AM
Numbers are maleable. I had no idea what damage a dedicated blaster should be capable of at-will, so I went with my gut. If you've got some ideas about what the numbers should look like, go ahead and post them.

Separating the damage from the effects seems good on paper, but when you're looking at a system this modular, what you end up with is nine Save-or-Sucks hitting the same target at once with nary a damage point in sight. From my experience, it's too hard to keep everything in check so that you don't end up with unplayably dull or unplayable ubergod sorcerers, so the effects are tied down to a level-dependent variable.

I would suggest dividing things up into some-sort of path type thing. Where instead of learning the Fire Seed, you learn the Fire Path, which has various seeds inside it, such as maybe the Blaze Seed which deals damage, the Smoke Seed which makes targets nauseated or sickened, or the Burn Seed which makes targets catch alight, lose fire resistance or be disintegrated depending on the amount of SP. This would give the Sorcerer/Bladeweaver more versatility than to just blast.

Tael
2010-09-26, 10:32 AM
Numbers are maleable. I had no idea what damage a dedicated blaster should be capable of at-will, so I went with my gut. If you've got some ideas about what the numbers should look like, go ahead and post them.

Separating the damage from the effects seems good on paper, but when you're looking at a system this modular, what you end up with is nine Save-or-Sucks hitting the same target at once with nary a damage point in sight. From my experience, it's too hard to keep everything in check so that you don't end up with unplayably dull or unplayable ubergod sorcerers, so the effects are tied down to a level-dependent variable.

A dedicated blaster should be able to fire off 20d6 rays at level, minimum. The only seed that you actually do decent damage with is Acid, and then only when you get the ability to use the 32 ability. Also, Sorcerers need a LOT more versatility.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-26, 11:43 AM
I have an idea for your dispel seed, but in this case, it's more of a disruption seed.

Imbue: Gain bonuses to saves against harmful effects at first, progressing to getting re-try and even completely cutting out the damage in a successful save (a la Evasion). Then, the last one should give Spell Resistance, just to piss off those annoying mages.
Exert: As normal Dispelling (minor range and/or with penalties at low levels), moving to Disjunction effects. Also, instead of dispelling it could deal damage to magical constructs/beasts by disrupting the magic continuity inside them.
Unleashed would be the ability to boost or penalize any spell in a short area, cutting off spells as they enter or pass through.

There's also the possiblity of an Allies seed that makes you some friends to fight with, but I doubt you'd do that, it's too complicated. Unless you go like

Imbue: Borrow a template. Which ones you can choose is up to spell points. Maybe even acquire two later on (not conflicting ones like Celestial-Fiendish though).
Exert: Summon monster, as the spell of same name.
Unleashed: Possibly take control of summons around you or summon an insanely powerful being for a single attack (think FF's summons, gotta love Giga Flare).

For a Law seed I have a suggestion:
Imbue: I'd say a bonus against emotion-affecting and other enchantment effects (such as fear, dominate etc).
Exert: Axiomatic damage with possible knock-back effects or other penalties like daze or stun.
Unleashed would probably create a small zone where your word is law and can mimic several things like 'no lethal damage', 'no magic', 'no healing' or even 'no necromancy'. Could be used to seriously control the battlefield and provide a strong advantage against, say an Illithid, by declaring that psionics doesn't work or that it's impossible to affect the minds of others. Of course, what goes for enemies goes for you, so be careful when declaring no magic, because magic weapons would loose thier bonuses. No sound could severely hamper a wizard without stilled spells, while a no cold law could deal damage to cold subtype creatures, prevent cold spells and dispel cold summons.

Also, how long would an Imbuement last? If it's one round, then it's more or less pointless. I'd give it one round per level or, at the very least, one round per two levels. Ten rounds at level 20 can make a bit of a difference, because one round is more or less pointless; you can't attack and defend at the same time, something that any other class can very easily do.

TheAmishPirate
2010-09-26, 12:57 PM
For the Sphere Shape Secret, are the dimensions given for the radius or the diameter?

Also, is there any limit to how many spells can be cast in one day?

Overall, I'm liking the new system. Adaptable, and a lower level of power without being useless.

NineThePuma
2010-09-26, 01:04 PM
Can you build a spell with more than one seed?

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 01:08 PM
Can you build a spell with more than one seed?

Yes, you can.

NineThePuma
2010-09-26, 01:12 PM
Then why is everyone talking about how blasting with this class is hard?

Soulblazer87
2010-09-26, 01:15 PM
Armored Spellweaving (Ex): Starting at second level, a bladeweaver begins to ignore the effects of armor on his spellweaving. He may use light shields without chance of spell failure. At 8th level, this ability improves to include medium armor. At 14th level, this ability improves further to include heavy armor and heavy shields. A bladeweaver never gains the ability to ignore the spell failure chance from a tower shield.


I take it you mean that you also use light armor without penalty as well. Also, what is the penalty in spellweaving compared to the sorcreror? One less spell point per level and lack of Unleashed or familiar? In exchange he can use heavy armor, more weapons and enhance his mellee strikes with his spells, which helps a lot. Which is why you should give the sorceror more seeds known as well as more spell points. A Wizard reaches his top usually as soon as he gains the last spell level at 17. So should a sorcreror, gaining a few more spell points per level, or at least get a feat or two that increases how much he can generate. Also, isn't the Will save off or is it just D20r? If so, where can I find the rules for it? Just so I know what the heck I'm talking about.

thegurullamen
2010-09-26, 01:25 PM
I would suggest dividing things up into some-sort of path type thing. Where instead of learning the Fire Seed, you learn the Fire Path, which has various seeds inside it, such as maybe the Blaze Seed which deals damage, the Smoke Seed which makes targets nauseated or sickened, or the Burn Seed which makes targets catch alight, lose fire resistance or be disintegrated depending on the amount of SP. This would give the Sorcerer/Bladeweaver more versatility than to just blast.

I like this idea. On paper, at least, it sounds good. I might tinker with it later on and see what comes of it.


A dedicated blaster should be able to fire off 20d6 rays at level, minimum. The only seed that you actually do decent damage with is Acid, and then only when you get the ability to use the 32 ability. Also, Sorcerers need a LOT more versatility.

Define versatility, here. Are we talking more seeds, more effects or what? And I'll check in with Fax on the damage numbers; he's got a better head for the micro balance issues than I do, especially for high levels.


Also, how long would an Imbuement last? If it's one round, then it's more or less pointless. I'd give it one round per level or, at the very least, one round per two levels. Ten rounds at level 20 can make a bit of a difference, because one round is more or less pointless; you can't attack and defend at the same time, something that any other class can very easily do.

It's one round, sustainable as a move action (swift action after 8th.) The offense-or-defense thing might change for higher levels.


For the Sphere Shape Secret, are the dimensions given for the radius or the diameter?

Also, is there any limit to how many spells can be cast in one day?

Diameter. And no, spells are at-will.


Can you build a spell with more than one seed?

Yes.


I take it you mean that you also use light armor without penalty as well. Also, what is the penalty in spellweaving compared to the sorcreror? One less spell point per level and lack of Unleashed or familiar? In exchange he can use heavy armor, more weapons and enhance his mellee strikes with his spells, which helps a lot. Which is why you should give the sorceror more seeds known as well as more spell points. A Wizard reaches his top usually as soon as he gains the last spell level at 17. So should a sorcreror, gaining a few more spell points per level, or at least get a feat or two that increases how much he can generate. Also, isn't the Will save off or is it just D20r? If so, where can I find the rules for it? Just so I know what the heck I'm talking about.

I'm pretty sure light armors in d20r don't have arcane spell failure chances, so all casters can use them, but I might be wrong about that. If so, I'll change it later.

There's also the bonus feats and increased MAD as mitigating factors, but I see your point. Originally, I went with a 2 + 1/2CL system, but that didn't work out very well. More seeds are on the way and with them, a rise in the number of sorceror's seeds known.

Fax said he wants a low, medium and high progression of saves for d20r. The Will is the medium progression. I'm not sure where you can find the original mention of it, but the save progression shows up in his other classes as well.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-26, 01:43 PM
Well, with the ability to maintain imbuements and be able to attack, I can see this working past level eight. Maybe even make a feat to allow to maintain two imbuements at the same time rather than one. As has been suggested already, a feat that adds a +4 SP cost to imbuements should allow the caster to buff someone else in the group, maybe even multiple by paying it again and again.

Anyway, I'm giving you a link to DnD wikia's Wordcasting (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Wordcasting)variant. It's very nice, but a little bit complicated and not for new players, it may give you an idea for balancing. It's got a couple non-wordcasting things as well (alchemists), but all in all, it should give you a nice idea on how it works and maybe even inspire a seed or two.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-26, 02:10 PM
Well, with the ability to maintain imbuements and be able to attack, I can see this working past level eight. Maybe even make a feat to allow to maintain two imbuements at the same time rather than one. As has been suggested already, a feat that adds a +4 SP cost to imbuements should allow the caster to buff someone else in the group, maybe even multiple by paying it again and again.
Let's do what I said earlier: maintain an imbuement as a swift action, and Improved Imbuements maintains it as a swift without locking your spellweaving ability.


I take it you mean that you also use light armor without penalty as well.Read the bladeweaver's proficiencies.


Also, isn't the Will save off or is it just D20r? If so, where can I find the rules for it? Just so I know what the heck I'm talking about.

It's a medium save.

{table=head]Good | Med | Bad
+2 | +1 | +0
+3 | +1 | +0
+3 | +2 | +1
+4 | +2 | +1
+4 | +3 | +1
+5 | +3 | +2
+5 | +3 | +2
+6 | +4 | +2
+6 | +4 | +3
+7 | +5 | +3
+7 | +5 | +3
+8 | +6 | +4
+8 | +6 | +4
+9 | +6 | +4
+9 | +7 | +5
+10 | +7 | +5
+10 | +8 | +5
+11 | +8 | +6
+11 | +9 | +6
+12 | +9 | +6
[/table]

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 03:33 PM
Anyway, let's get cracking here.

First off: The bladeweaver is... flat out better than the sorcerer. Better chassis, effectively getting four spells a round through full attacks, free line attacks, increased spell damage, and the same spellcasting ability... the sorcerer needs to be buffed a ton or the bladeweaver needs to be nerfed. I'm actually pretty sure the "no save for damage, apply the effects four times total" thing should just flat out be removed; let it apply the spell to one attack, not four; at higher levels, that's four save or loses, effectively.

Second: Imbuements are... worthless. They take your only action (that you can use offensively) for the round, and since they only last a single round... it's just not worth using them. The bladeweaver can sort of make them work by casting an imbuement, swift action keeping it up, and just full attacking (though that is inefficient) but the sorcerer gets no benefit from imbuements at all because their time is better spent actually casting; even if you got an 80% miss chance, it's still better to have 100% offensive power and take 100% damage than to take 20% damage and have 0% offensive power.

Anyway, on to the seeds; all imbuements will be ignored because, with the mechanics as they are, they are essentially never going to be used except in incredibly dire circumstances or, in a few cases, for temporary mobility. Also, I am assuming the duration on everything is 1 round because that is the (implied) duration of the imbuements; if the durations were intended to be something else (which I have to assume they were, because so much makes no sense with a one round duration, again, including every imbuement), then it should be listed.


Air
Save: Will half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain a +1 shield bonus to AC
8SP: Gain a +2 shield bonus to AC, affected as if by a feather fall spell
16SP: Gain a +4 shield bonus to AC, doubled against ranged attacks, +30' fly speed, average maneuverability
24SP: Gain a +6 shield bonus to AC, doubled against ranged attacks, +60' fly speed, good maneuverability
32SP: Gain a +8 shield bonus to AC, doubled against ranged attacks, +120' fly speed, perfect maneuverability

Exert:
4SP: Mage hand effect
8SP: Gust of wind effect starting in target's square
12SP: 30 foot cone gust of wind effect starting in target's square
18SP: +3d6 nonlethal damage, 30 foot cone-shaped gust of wind effect starting in target's square
24SP: +6d6 nonlethal damage, 60 foot line-shaped gust of wind effect starting in target's square, enemies considered 1 size smaller for effects of spell
32SP: +9d6 nonlethal damage, 60 foot cone-shaped gust of wind effect starting in target's square, enemies considered 2 sizes smaller for effects of spell

Unleashed: You gain an elder air elemental's whirlwind ability for one round per caster level.

Not bad, though it's pretty unclear how the save affects the gust of wind effect; I assume it just doesn't get one for that part?


Acid
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist acid/5
8SP: Gain resist acid 10, +1d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist acid 20, +2d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to acid, +4d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, emit a cloud of fumes that sickens all creatures within 5 feet who fail their Fort saves
32SP: Gain immunity to acid, +8d6 acid damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, emit a cloud of fumes that paralyzes all creatures within 5 feet who fail their Fort saves

Exert:
1SP: +1 acid damage
3SP: +1d6 acid damage
12SP: +4d6 acid damage
18SP: +6d6 acid damage, target's acid resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 acid damage, target's acid resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, half of damage splashes to a random enemy within 5 feet of target
32SP: +12d6 acid damage, takes an additional 12d6 on the following round if they fail the Reflex save

Pretty weak; pure damage with no really useful effect isn't all that great.


Earth
Save: Fort half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain a +1 natural armor bonus to AC
8SP: Gain a +2 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks
16SP: Gain a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks, +20 burrow speed
24SP: Gain a +6 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks, +40 burrow speed
32SP: Gain a +8 natural armor bonus to AC, doubled against melee attacks, +60 burrow speed, you cannot be unwillingly moved as long as you remain in contact with the earth

Exert:
4SP: Target's square becomes difficult terrain.
8SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage and becoming difficult terrain.
12SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, dealing 2d6 bludgeoning damage and becoming difficult terrain.
16SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, dealing 4d6 bludgeoning damage and all squares within five feet become difficult terrain. Target must make save or fall prone.
24SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, becoming a geyser. The burst deals 6d6 bludgeoning damage and the water shunts the target to an adjacent square (chosen by sorcerer), with all eight squares around the geyser becoming difficult terrain. Target falls prone if they fail their save.
32SP: Earth beneath target's feet bursts, becoming a small volcano. The burst deals 8d6 bludgeoning damage and the fiery gases deal an additional 4d6 fire damage to all enemies within 5 feet. All squares within 30 feet become difficult terrain. Target falls prone if they fail their save.

Unleashed: As a move action, you can raise or lower the natural terrain beneath one creature by 30 feet for one round per caster level. The target must make a Reflex save or fall/be thrust upward, taking 3d6 damage per 30 feet moved and become trapped in a pit/on a cliff.

This is... also pretty meh. Prone isn't bad, but it's not really an amazing thing; difficult terrain for one round and some mediocre blasting just isn't enough to justify taking the seed.



Fire
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist fire 5
8SP: Gain resist fire 10, +1d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist fire 20, +3d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to fire, +6d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
32SP: Gain immunity to fire, +9d6 fire damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, gain firewalk*

Exert:
1SP: +1 fire damage
3SP: +1d6 fire damage
12SP: +4d6 fire damage, target catches fire on failed Reflex save (2d6 fire damage per round until extinguished)
18SP: +6d6 fire damage, target's fire resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 fire damage, target's fire resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, target catches fire if failed save (4d6 fire damage per round until extinguished)
32SP: +12d6 fire damage, target disintegrates if failed Reflex save and below 0 HP

Unleashed: All fire spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)
Firewalk: You become capable of teleporting between any two open flames within 120 feet of each other. (You must have physical contact with one of the flames to use this ability.)

Not so hot. Again, it's just meh blasting with no really useful added effect.


Force
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: +1 deflection bonus
8SP: +2 deflection bonus
16SP: +4 deflection bonus, DR 5/force
24SP: +6 deflection bonus, DR 10/force
32SP: +8 deflection bonus, DR 20/force

Exert:
1SP: +1 force damage
3SP: +1d4 force damage
12SP: +4d4 force damage
18SP: +6d4 force damage, no save
24SP: +8d4 force damage, no save
32SP: +10d4 force damage, no save

Unleashed: For one round per two caster levels, creatures must make saves against any force spell you cast or be affected by a Magic Missile spell cast by a wizard of your level.

Again, meh blasting with no kicker added on just isn't enough to justify taking it.


Hex
Save: Will half (round down)

Imbue:
4SP: -1 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you
8SP: -2 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you
16SP: -4 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you, death ward (self only)
24SP: -6 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you, death ward (self only)
32SP: -8 to attacks and damage to enemies who attack you, death ward (self only), mind blank

Exert:
3SP: -1 to selected save
6SP: -1 to all saves
12SP: -2 to all saves, -1 to all other rolls
18SP: -3 to all saves, -1 to all other rolls
24SP: -4 to all saves, -2 to all other rolls, target is confused on failed save
32SP: -5 to all saves, -2 to all rolls, target is permanently insane on failed save

Unleashed: Target takes a permanent -6 penalty to all attributes and dice rolls (Will halves, reduces duration to 1 round/caster level). If they fail, they must make another Will save or it becomes a family curse, passing down through the bloodlines until removed by a divine caster with a caster level equal to your own.

Permanent means it can be dispelled, so it's not bad. Basically a save or die with high investment on it, but otherwise pretty much worthless. Until 24 SP, it isn't worth using, and then it's only OK, and 32 is the first SoD I've seen on the list. The unleash is one of the few powerful ones listed so far, although the "family curse" thing is essentially irrelevant to the combat you'd be using this in, and is still, in fact, worse than just making them insane.



Ice
Save: Fort half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist cold 5
8SP: Gain resist cold 10, +1d6 cold damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist cold 20, +2d6 cold damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to cold, +4d6 cold damage and -10 move speed to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
32SP: Gain immunity to cold, +8d6 cold damage and -30 move speed to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, Resist fire 10

Exert:
1SP: +1 cold damage
3SP: +1d6 cold damage
12SP: +4d6 cold damage
18SP: +6d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, is slowed for (Cha mod) rounds if failed save
32SP: +12d6 cold damage, target freezes solid (petrified) permanently if fails save

Unleashed: All cold spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)

This is far better than the other blast spells so far, but since it actually has an added effect, I like it. Again, it's only useful at 24 SP or higher; before then, it's low damage with no kicker, again.



Light
Save: Will half

Imbue:
1SP: Emit light as a torch
4SP: Creatures that attack you are affected by faerie fire
8SP: Creatures that attack you are affected by faerie fire, see invisible (as the spell)
16SP: Gain invisibility, see invisible
24SP: Gain improved invisibility, see invisible
32SP: Gain improved invisibility, true seeing

Exert:
1SP: +1 radiant damage
3SP: +1d4 radiant damage
12SP: +4d4 radiant damage, target is dazzled on failed save
18SP: +6d4 radiant damage, target is blinded on failed save
24SP: +8d4 radiant damage, target is fascinated on failed save
32SP: +10d4 radiant damage, target is disintegrated on failed save if HP is below 0

Unleashed: All light spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)

The 24 SP effect is actually far better than the 32 SP effect for exertions. It gives some nice utility with the imbuements, although, again, getting them for only one round make them rather useless.



Lightning
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist electricity 5
8SP: Gain resist electricity 10, +1d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist electricity 20, +2d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to electricity, +4d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, half of this damage arcs to one enemy within 20 feet
32SP: Gain immunity to electricity, +8d6 electricity damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, half of this damage arcs to all enemies within 30 feet

Exert:
1SP: +1 electricity damage
3SP: +1d6 electricity damage
12SP: +4d6 electricity damage, target is shaken if failed save
18SP: +6d6 electricity damage, target's electricity resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 electricity damage, target's electricity resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save, is dazed for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if failed save
32SP: +12d6 electricity damage, target is stunned if fails save

Unleashed: All electricity spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)

Again, it is strangely stronger (and much, much, much moreso) at 24 SP than 32 SP; going up to 32 SP gets you 3d6 more damage, but causes you to inflict a worse status condition (not sure of this in d20r, though, since stun immunity may be gone), but for much less time; instead of one round of stunning, you get at least six rounds of the enemy being dazed if you only pay 24 points. If you pay more, you go from a SoL to a Save-or-Suck.


Shadow
Save: Will half

Imbue:
4SP: +5% concealment, gain darkvision
8SP: +10% concealment, gain magical darkvision (see in magical darkness)
16SP: +20% concealment, gain magical darkvision, shadowwalk*
24SP: +30% concealment, gain magical darkvision, shadowwalk, etherealness
32SP: +40% concealment, gain magical darkvision, shadowwalk, etherealness

Exert:
1SP: +1 cold damage
3SP: +1d6 cold damage
12SP: +2d6 cold damage, +2d6 damage
18SP: +3d6 cold damage, +3d6 damage
24SP: +4d6 cold damage, +4d6 damage, target blinded on failed save
32SP: +5d6 cold damage, +5d6 damage, target gets permanent amnesia on failed save

Unleashed: Shadows swarm the area and the sun goes dim, as if an eclipse was occurring. All enemies within the normal range of your spells must make Will saves or become panicked. Success means they are merely frightened instead. All enemy attack rolls suffer a 50% miss chance and a -8 penalty.
*Shadowwalk: as Firewalk (see the Fire seed), except utilizing shadows instead of fire.

The unleash is good (no save just lose your action for a round), although the 50% miss chance and -8... something penalty don't matter since they're frightened anyway. Shadowwalking is nice, but again, only lasting one round makes it rather useless.

Amnesia isn't really a status condition as defined in D&D, so it should probably be given a definition. Depending on the interpretation, it does nothing, or could essentially be a save or die.

[
size=3]Sonic[/size]
Save: Reflex half

Imbue:
4SP: Gain resist sonic 5
8SP: Gain resist sonic 10, +1d6 sonic damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
16SP: Gain resist sonic 20, +2d6 sonic damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
24SP: Gain immunity to sonic, +4d6 sonic damage and a silence effect on anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee
32SP: Gain immunity to sonic, +8d6 sonic damage to anyone who strikes you in (non-reach) melee, silence all enemies within 10 feet

Exert:
1SP: +1 sonic damage
3SP: +1d6 sonic damage
12SP: +4d6 sonic damage, target is deafened for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
18SP: +6d6 sonic damage, target's sonic resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
24SP: +9d6 sonic damage, target's sonic resistance is reduced by 10 for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save
32SP: +12d6 sonic damage, target is unconscious for rounds equal to your Charisma modifier if they fail the save

Unleashed: All sonic spells you cast have their damage dice increased by one step for one round per caster level. (I.E., d6's become d8's, d8's become d10's, etc.)

Until 12 SP, it's another generic blast spell, and then it's still a boring blast spell at 18 and 24 SP (seriously, why do so many of these lose effects as they level up?) and then it becomes a save or die at 32 SP. Weird, but since it's one of the few spells (so far) with any utility besides dealing damage before 24 SP, it could be taken.



Water
Save: Fort half

Imbue:
1SP: +1 temporary hp
4SP: Gain 5% concealment
8SP: Gain 10% concealment
12SP: Gain 20% concealment, +20 foot swim speed
16SP: Gain 25% concealment, +30 foot swim speed, water breathing
24SP: Gain 40% concealment, +60 foot swim speed, water breathing, fast healing 2 (up to half total hp)
32SP: Gain 50% concealment, +120 foot swim speed, water breathing, regeneration 3 (up to half total hp)

Exert:
1SP: Purify 1 gallon of water
3SP: +1d4 desiccation damage, shape water in target square as per control water spell
12SP: +4d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes)
18SP: +6d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes), target crumbles into dust if it fails five saves in a row
24SP: +8d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes), target crumbles into dust if it fails three saves in a row
32SP: +12d4 desiccation damage to target (doubled against plants and oozes), target must make Fort save or drown

Unleashed: A wall of water forms and crashes down on all enemies within 30 feet, dealing 12d6 bludgeoning damage and carrying them away, dragging all enemies 60 feet in any direction the sorcerer chooses.[/spoiler]


I don't see the point in adding a "five saves or die" to the lower ones, but at least it's more than just blasting. Again, it's still mostly blasting with a save or die tacked on at 32 SP.

The feats are pretty OK and generic, but the "add wis mod to your spell points" is basically a must take for anybody.

Looking at the suggested seeds:

Exert is nuts, since... well, it can double the damage output of the entire party against a certain target, or make it 1.5x on a failed save. It's by far the strongest seed of any of those currently in existence.

Teleport: Again, maybe d20r is different, but putting a worse effect at 32 SP isn't the best idea.

Anyway, overall, here's what I think:

The sorcerer has nothing going for it, at all. What few benefits it gets are by far outclassed by the action economy abuse that the bladeweaver gets.

Every seed is exactly the same. They're all "Deal some damage, at 24/32 SP, add a save or something in"; the only difference is that there are plenty with no effective save or anything effects at all, and some have better unleashes.

It just can't do much. It's just all damage, damage, damage, and it can't even use it's imbuements to buff your allies because they are self only, at least according to the text.

It's... boring. This may just be because all the seeds are the same, but it doesn't have the flexibility of either the original d20r sorcerer or the Penny Dreadful's sorcerer that was suggested for d20r use.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-26, 03:45 PM
Actually... I disagree. Granted, this isn't made to rival Wizards, and shouldn't be judged thusly.

It's a more open, free way of using magic in an at least partially logical and not quadrant way. If we wanted to play OP blasters, there's way for that too. Just open the Player's Guide to Munchkins, get a rapid-fire mini-wand and start blasting Disintegrate rays and Acid-Substituted Fireballs (Acid resistance is rare after all).

I agree, that the Sorceror needs some major buffing, both in terms of SP and number of seeds. But, even as is, he can be very nice to play in a Tier 3 campaign; very good at what he does, but not gamebreaking.

It definitely needs a bit more work, adding more effects and choosing what effects you want (having options with the same SP cost), but even if left alone, it can be good. Just add a few more seeds, maybe the ability to specialize on seeds, a couple PrCs and you're ready.

After all, this IS a new magic system. Of course it's not up to snuff with everything else, but really, is anything perfect? A wizard rip-off would be too strong, but the sorceror is too weak. It's really what you want for your campaign that matters. I'd gladly have played a sorceror over a wizard or SRD sorcerer. It's just so much more fun making your spells each time you cast them!

EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget, you can mix and match seeds. In other words, you can blast and use something else if the damage is too little. Like using Fire-Sonic-Hex blasts or something. Good fun, and with lots of options!

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 03:56 PM
Actually... I disagree. Granted, this isn't made to rival Wizards, and shouldn't be judged thusly.

I did not judge it based on rivaling wizards. I judged it based on rivaling either Fax's original sorcerer, or Doc Roc's remake, both of which aimed for the same power of this one. Fax's sorcerer was far too flexible (leading to too much power) and this really... isn't. All the seeds are very similar and, if you want extra effects on your spells, you can't even really mix and match too much.


It's a more open, free way of using magic in an at least partially logical and not quadrant way. If we wanted to play OP blasters, there's way for that too. Just open the Player's Guide to Munchkins, get a rapid-fire mini-wand and start blasting Disintegrate rays and Acid-Substituted Fireballs (Acid resistance is rare after all).

This... has nothing to do with my post? Honestly, it's less flexible than many systems; while you have a ton of options, anything but investing enough points to get a SoD isn't helpful, and all the spells, save Hex, are simply damage with an occasional kicker at 18 or higher spell points.

Basically, while it has a ton of flexibility in what you, theoretically, could do, it has very limited flexibility in what your actual, usable options are, especially since all of them are "deal some damage and force a save or lose" or, at low levels "deal some damage."

I agree, that the Sorceror needs some major buffing, both in terms of SP and number of seeds. But, even as is, he can be very nice to play in a Tier 3 campaign; very good at what he does, but not gamebreaking.


After all, this IS a new magic system. Of course it's not up to snuff with everything else, but really, is anything perfect? A wizard rip-off would be too strong, but the sorceror is too weak. It's really what you want for your campaign that matters. I'd gladly have played a sorceror over a wizard or SRD sorcerer. It's just so much more fun making your spells each time you cast them!

I'm not asking for it to be perfect, and saying "it's new, it isn't going to be perfect" doesn't make the flaws in this disappear. It's an idea, but it needs to be greatly expanded and reworked in some key aspects. Also, again, I actually liked the previous sorcerer incarnations better; Doc Rocs was complicated but very flexible and balanced, and Fax's was as simple as this and very flexible, but had some serious balance issues. This trades off flexibility and low level balance (since it really can't do much at low levels, it's pretty underpowered) for being balanced at later levels, and winds up feeling boring; all the options just feel like false choices since the end effect is going to be the same.


EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget, you can mix and match seeds. In other words, you can blast and use something else if the damage is too little. Like using Fire-Sonic-Hex blasts or something. Good fun, and with lots of options!

The point is that it's not the damage being too little, it's that all this gets is damage; mixing and matching fire and sonic damage doesn't change the end effect being a certain amount of damage dice, it just (possibly) removes the save or die from it. A good way of making this useful would be if all the exertions had additional effects starting at four SP, so that mixing and matching actually changed up what was going on.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-26, 04:12 PM
Now, with THAT, I do agree.

It's new, it needs more people to contribute to balancing and ideas. I've never seen the other versions, so I'm judging this one as is, blank slate. Everyone's saying that the sorceror needs more SP and seeds, I'm just waiting to see the final formula that's going to come out. It does need some low-level effects and some beefing of its later abilities, the point is figuring when it's too much.

As is, even at low levels, I'd go for it. Later on, it would have problems, obviously. Now, it's down to use helping solve the problems, it's what reviewing is for right?

I'd suggest doubling the amount of seeds and spell points the sorceror gains. Also, the ability to favour certain spell secrets and use them at less SP cost. Finally, the ability to have more spell seed familiars (though only able to enter one unleashed state at a time and with a cooldown to enter the next) as well as having your familiars maintain some Imbuements if they are from the same seed. A Hex-seed familiar should be able to maintain a hex-only imbuement, leaving the user to maintain his own more complicated ones. Finally, combining spell seed familiars so that, even though he has less out, the familiars are more flexible. Comments on this?

thegurullamen
2010-09-26, 04:25 PM
I'd suggest doubling the amount of seeds and spell points the sorceror gains. Also, the ability to favour certain spell secrets and use them at less SP cost. Finally, the ability to have more spell seed familiars (though only able to enter one unleashed state at a time and with a cooldown to enter the next) as well as having your familiars maintain some Imbuements if they are from the same seed. A Hex-seed familiar should be able to maintain a hex-only imbuement, leaving the user to maintain his own more complicated ones. Finally, combining spell seed familiars so that, even though he has less out, the familiars are more flexible. Comments on this?

a) Doubling the amount of SP the sorc has would give them access to 32SP abilities at level 9 or 10. That's too unbalancing a suggestion, though SP values probably need to be reworked for both classes.

b) There's a feat for that. (Seed Focus)

c) I don't see the purpose of having more familiars. Your current familiar gains the spellseeds that you learn at roughly the same pace (or half pace, whenever we boost the seeds known.) Love the idea of a familiar channeling an imbuement for you, though.

Good to see the expansive criticisms. Keep it up guys. Sorry I don't have anything specific to say about your points; I'm going to mull things over first before I address anything/put my foot in my mouth. One thing I did want to address is that imbuements, while taking a standard action to cast, only require a move action (later, a swift action) to channel for both classes. Not sure how well this is reflected in the text, however.

Innis Cabal
2010-09-26, 04:29 PM
After all, this IS a new magic system. Of course it's not up to snuff with everything else, but really, is anything perfect? A wizard rip-off would be too strong, but the sorceror is too weak. It's really what you want for your campaign that matters. I'd gladly have played a sorceror over a wizard or SRD sorcerer. It's just so much more fun making your spells each time you cast them!

Actually...no it's not. This isn't a new spell system. The Chaos Mage (Mongoose Publishing) works with this very same system and does it much much better.

As with the previous D20r classes, while this isn't bad...I honsetly think it could be handled better. The Sorcerer just seems like another chance dropped to the side like the D20r Monk. Sorcerer's should get at least a few more seeds and the seeds should honestly be made to be more distinctive and interesting. As it stands, only a few are worth taking, some are just outright worse then others and some are a little obtuse.

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 04:35 PM
Good to see the expansive criticisms. Keep it up guys. Sorry I don't have anything specific to say about your points; I'm going to mull things over first before I address anything/put my foot in my mouth. One thing I did want to address is that imbuements, while taking a standard action to cast, only require a move action (later, a swift action) to channel for both classes. Not sure how well this is reflected in the text, however.

But it blocks your spellcasting, which, as I said, makes imbuements worthless to use on sorcerers, and better to use on bladeweavers but still worse than just full attacking with a save or die on each attack.

Tael
2010-09-26, 04:36 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Milski has said, but of course, had too little time to say it before. What I would really love is the original d20r Sorcerer toned down a bit, not nerf to high hell in both usefulness and entertainment. Not to discredit this revision, but this sorcerer needs much better, more interesting seeds, with more ways to mix them up. Also more seeds.

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 04:38 PM
I agree with pretty much everything Milski has said, but of course, had too little time to say it before. What I would really love is the original d20r Sorcerer toned down a bit, not nerf to high hell in both usefulness and entertainment. Not to discredit this revision, but this sorcerer needs much better, more interesting seeds, with more ways to mix them up. Also more seeds.

The original d20r sorcerer is nigh unsalvageable.

Caustic Soda
2010-09-26, 04:41 PM
Interesting looking classes you've got here. I think the SP system makes for a good basis of relatively flexible spellcasting, without the often quite specific spells available to 3.5 Wizards/Sorcerers.

However, I have to agree with Milskidasith that the blasting seems rather weak. Have you changed the HP distribution significantly for monsters with d20r?

Assuming a Sorc starts with cha 18, and invests all levelup bonuses in cha, he gets all of 6d6 damage at level 10 without +cha items. That's not very impressive, especially not to a single enemy. This can be remedied by taking Intelligent Targeting or Perceptive Spellweaving, but taking both leavers the Sorc/Bladeweaver spread somewhat thinly, stat-wise. Is this intentional?

Perhaps you might consider introducing some more control-ish effects like the earth Seed exertion, though not as powerful as 3.5 spells. As is, all but two of the Seeds have straight-up blasting for their Exertions. That could get monotonous.

That aside, I have some clarifying questions.

A) The acid Seed states that the Imbue releases a cloud of fumes. Does this happen when the Imbue is cast, or when the character is struck, like the acid damage? Also, given the limited radius, perhaps this effect could be available sooner.

B) Is the shadow Seed supposed to deal untyped damage in addition to the cold damage? I know it isn't meant to be necrotic damage, but it seems somewhat odd.

C)the water Seed states that the target may crumble into dust at an investment of 18/24 SPs, if it fails 5/3 saves in a row. Would those saves all be taken when the target is hit or for every 5/3 attacks? The first seems a bit fiddly, but the second is rather unreliable.

D) Is the water Seed supposed to go from making the enemy dessicate and crumble to making them drown at 32 SPs? That's a pretty sudden reversal, I think.

E) Are the costs of the Secrets meant to be the product of the original cost and the Secret modifier? Having a 4 SP suddenly cost 48 SPS if cast as a sphere (4*12) makes it impossible to deal significant amounts of area damage.

F) I noted that many of the Exertions (sp?) lack an additional ability at 8 SPs. 9-10 SPs are readily available to a level 2 or 3 Sorc/Bladeweaver. This would induce the player towards combining seeds, except that neither class actually gains a second seed until level 5, and Extra Seed isn't available until then either.

Hmn, that came off as rather critical. You've got a good idea going here, but it needs a bit of polishing, I think.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-26, 04:45 PM
Well, sorry to say, but to me, it's new. I've read most of Montgoose books, but I never saw the Chaos mage (and if I did, I forgot which means he really didn't inspire anything in me).

Point is, this class is made for flexibility, not randomization. Sure, it needs more seeds, effects and general flavour. As I said, that's why it's posted here; so all the lads and lasses can review and point out what the problem is. I've given my opinion in five new seeds, two of which were original and have been completed. The rest? It's up to us comparing and fixing the dead levels of the class.

For more SP, if twice is too much and once is too little, go for one and a half. Alternatively, give it a scaling form, few at the begininng, but much more at the end, which however would mess up stuff by again, giving too much. Alternatively, you could also cut down the cost of seeds. There's a nice variant here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Mana-Based_Spellcasting_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)) that does exactly that. May give you an idea.

You could also limit the spell points that you can put in a seed by level. Something like unlocking greater and greater levels of power every now and then. About every 3 levels should do the trick.

Of course, there's also the matter of underwhelming side effects. They need a minor overhaul, giving more stuff, especially the 32 ones. If I'm going to have to wait till level 15 for my spell, well it better be damn strong.

As for more familiars; you could make them weaker, incorporeal things that cannot affect the physical world, something like will'o wisps. Floating around, following the caster, doing their stuff. Then, when needed, re-absorb one of them for an unleash or combine two of them to use two seeds. This kind of familiar would only have access to one seed only, decided at its time of creation and you can't have more familiars than you have seeds or Cha modifier. Additionaly, to make it even more fun, you may rule that you can't use a seed (or you are restrained as if you were 5 levels lower if you go with limiting spellpoints per seed) when it's turned into a familiar and also, when using Unleashed, it depends on the familiar you reabsorbed. Familiars could have up to 1/4th of the caster's SP and their maximum SP to throw in one seed would also be limited at half the user's own. So, a 20 level sorceror could keep up to four familiars out, each being able to weave as a 10 level sorceror but only having 1/4th SP than the caster. Also, the user would use these seeds as if he were 15 level, meaning he could possibly be restrained from using the 32SP ones.

What's your take on this?

Tael
2010-09-26, 04:46 PM
The original d20r sorcerer is nigh unsalvageable.

That doesn't mean that I can't hope for a miracle! By the combined efforts of Fax, DragoonWraith, The Demented One, Krimm, Tribble and Djinn in Tonic, it could be done! :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

thegurullamen
2010-09-26, 04:56 PM
Hmn, that came off as rather critical. You've got a good idea going here, but it needs a bit of polishing, I think.

That's why it's here. I have no illusions that this is a complete and balanced class. It's posted as is just to check if the base mechanic is any more viable than the original d20r sorc's. If we can make a viable go of it, then we're going to, but I assume a B-Weaver/Sorc v 3.0 is inevitable.

Answers!

A) When the imbue is cast.
B) It's untyped. Might change it to entropic (d20r's "negative energy").
C) One save per hit.
D) Yes. Yes it is.
E) No, it's simple addition.
F) From 3-12 SP, the basic mechanic is straight blasting. With the current (not final) set of seeds known, that does mean you're essentially a one-trick pony for a few levels. It's therefore something I'm looking to change.


For more SP, if twice is too much and once is too little, go for one and a half. Alternatively, give it a scaling form, few at the begininng, but much more at the end, which however would mess up stuff by again, giving too much. Alternatively, you could also cut down the cost of seeds. There's a nice variant here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Mana-Based_Spellcasting_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)) that does exactly that. May give you an idea.

The goal for the sorceror was to use a mana-based mechanic without resorting to spells. (I assume that's exactly what the psion's mechanic is.)


You could also limit the spell points that you can put in a seed by level. Something like unlocking greater and greater levels of power every now and then. About every 3 levels should do the trick.

Of course, there's also the matter of underwhelming side effects. They need a minor overhaul, giving more stuff, especially the 32 ones. If I'm going to have to wait till level 15 for my spell, well it better be damn strong.

Alternative level-appropriate limits might work. Possibly a deconstruction of the base effects down to a (significant fraction)xd6/caster level (i.e. 2d6/3CL, 3d6/4CL) with the non-damage effects acting as riders limited by a number of slots limited by level. It might work, but I'll have to mess with it at a later time; it would require an entire rewrite and I want to examine these two classes' bases as much as possible before I have to move on.


(familiar stuff)

What's your take on this?

I still don't see the point of having numerous weaker familiars instead of just the one multi-seed one.

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 05:07 PM
That doesn't mean that I can't hope for a miracle! By the combined efforts of Fax, DragoonWraith, The Demented One, Krimm, Tribble and Djinn in Tonic, it could be done! :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

No, no it could not. The way it was designed was pretty much impossible to balance without... actually, I can't think of a way to balance it; even by adding complex limitations to everything, it would still be very unbalanced and complicated.

Tael
2010-09-26, 05:21 PM
No, no it could not. The way it was designed was pretty much impossible to balance without... actually, I can't think of a way to balance it; even by adding complex limitations to everything, it would still be very unbalanced and complicated.

:smalltongue: Yeah, I know; it was a joke. But still, the flexibility of the original was really cool. I'm considering offering it to a group at 6th level with the stipulation that only one save takes effect, and seeing how broken it actually will be.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-26, 05:24 PM
Well, multiple familiars may act more times per round, adding to the damage without needing to up the damage of an individual blast. Also, it allows you to use Unleashed for more than once per day. Not to mention adds to the cool factor; how cool is a wizard walking around with a lightshow on his back? Hilarious I say!

Fax Celestis
2010-09-26, 06:24 PM
As with the previous D20r classes, while this isn't bad...I honsetly think it could be handled better. The Sorcerer just seems like another chance dropped to the side like the D20r Monk. Sorcerer's should get at least a few more seeds and the seeds should honestly be made to be more distinctive and interesting. As it stands, only a few are worth taking, some are just outright worse then others and some are a little obtuse.

Do you have anything positive to say?

Seriously. I can't fix it if you don't tell me what's wrong, so if you don't like the monk, go post in the thread and tell me what you don't like about it so I can make it better.

This particular class is very much a work in progress--I noted as much at the top of the very first post--so assuming that it is going to be glorious and shining and perfect out the gate is a bit presumptive.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-26, 10:10 PM
From looking over it the Bladeweaver is way too good at magic. It is running a whole one Spellweave Point behind the Sorceror. One. delayed access to Secrets isn't nearly enough of a drawback. Perhaps if it gained 2 + half your Bladeweaver level (minimum 1) + eventually your Charisma.

I really feel like the Sorceror should have more access to more Seeds. I feel like the Bladeweaver's Seed access is decent, but perhaps double the Sorceror's. Perhaps 2 known Seeds at 1st level, then an additional Seed at 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th levels. That leaves you with 8 Seeds, which is a good number more, but doesn't feel like too much. And it will continue to be better as more Seeds are created.

The way saves are handled seems much more reasonable.

milskidasith had a great review of the current Seeds, nearly all of which I agree with. The Seeds really need to feel more exciting, and offer some blatant differences at lower levels, and Imbuements need a serious workover. Extra points would be:
Force Seed - why would I ever buy the 32 option over the 18 + 12 (and for that matter, why the 12 at all, as it is literall the 3 option times 4)?
Shadow Seed - Why does it deal cold damage and not entropic?
Seeds that offer Save for half should also be more specific as to what saving does when there are added effects (you can't "save for half" against a confusion effect)

I feel Improved Secrets would be simpler if it just doubled the range or DC increase of the original Secret. Or added a third target in the case of Twinned. They feel very much like metamagic...in which case, why no Empower/Maximize Secrets?
Spell Shielding on the Sorceror feels like Trap Sense on the Barbarian...too narrow and randomly added to prevent dead levels, when just adding 1 to your occasional save feels pretty unexciting. Its decent enough on the Bladeweaver.
Perhaps Improved Channeling should be a basic part of the Sorceror, giving it a way to buff and cast, an advantage over the Bladeweaver.
Bladeweaver gaining access to heavy armor feels a little odd for such a gish class.
Weavespear gives you the effect of an Improved Secret Line for free before you even have access to Secrets...seems like it needs to be modified. Additionally, why don't you need to make attack rolls with it?

Aran Banks
2010-09-26, 10:52 PM
32 points is expensive, isn't it?

I mean, a sorcerer at level 17 gets 20 points as a standard action and needs an extra 12. With that 2nd-level ability, he'd need a stat of 34 to successfully pull out 32 points.... and 34 Cha is quite a bit. If you add that one feat that gives WisMod to SP, you could probably make do.

It still seems obnoxiously hard, though.

Milskidasith
2010-09-26, 11:18 PM
32 points is expensive, isn't it?

I mean, a sorcerer at level 17 gets 20 points as a standard action and needs an extra 12. With that 2nd-level ability, he'd need a stat of 34 to successfully pull out 32 points.... and 34 Cha is quite a bit. If you add that one feat that gives WisMod to SP, you could probably make do.

It still seems obnoxiously hard, though.

Why would you assume level 17 instead of level 20? :smallconfused:

Anyway, starting 20 charisma, +5 from levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, gets you a +13 bonus; at level 17, the bonus would be +12, exactly enough to get 32 SP, and since you're so SAD, I don't see why you wouldn't.*

*Note: Not sure how d20r items work, but for levelling, I think I remember it being one point in two stats every four levels. If I'm wrong, tell me.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-26, 11:21 PM
I believe you are correct. The problem I see is that it just isn't worth it. It the 32 point option (or whatever number it eventually is...I think the math needs to be crunched and numbers changed) is the equivalent of 9th level spells. The riders better be worth it, which they really aren't at the moment.

Or rather, maybe they should be 7th to 8th level equivalent, since they're at will once you get them.

Aran Banks
2010-09-26, 11:37 PM
I used level 17 because decent fullcasters get 9th-level spells around that time. So that's when you should be getting your capstone spells.

And are we talking inherent, too? (like... wish? A lot of people put up the middle finger to that).

By the time you're level 20, you should be be able to pull 40-something SP out of your ass as a standard action. I want to see my level 20 characters competing with DreadNecros and their armies of zombies. So d20r sorcerers need to be able to throw 1 around 40d6 damage or an SoL as a standard action at level 20 (of course, the d20r sorcerer seems to use 'spells' at-will... I guess that would be a little much).

Say 25d6 of an obscure damage type or a moderate SoL.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-27, 02:50 AM
I agree with Aran. By level 17, the sorceror should have full access to at least one seed, on his own, without magical stuff. And possibly enough SP to throw in either more effects from other seeds. Some more damage in the seeds would be nice too, not to mention better side-effects.

But, as I said earlier, while it needs a bit of work and buffing, it isn't unplayable. Just don't make the same mistake as warlocks; being able to blast all day long doesn't mean that you'll be alive to do so. Warlocks die off easily against the more hardcore spellcasters becasue, even though they have no limit on how long they can fight, a Wizard simply out-bursts their damage and takes them down in one or two rounds, not nearly long enough to use up a significant amount of resources for a Wizard, more so a prepared one (I'm talking scrolls, wands, the whole deal). Right now, a 10th level wizard can almost out-dps the 32-point damage with generic 3rd level spells, and he gets a free shape and metamagics out of it too.

This IS a nice idea and it's a long way into proper implementation. It just needs the finishing touches, which depend on proper reviewing.

Tael
2010-09-27, 11:42 AM
On the subject of making spells interesting, level 8 and 12 abilities should always be different than just a larger multiplier of the basic 4. Otherwise you can do nothing but blast for the first few levels. Also, seeds should have more than one ability for each point, as in, at least two 4 point exertions.

Soulblazer87
2010-09-27, 03:39 PM
Maybe a damage ability for 2/4/8 SP and a minor non-damaging but otherwise annoying? Something like daze. Nothing as strong as stun until at least 8SP. Cutting your enemy's turns on a per-round basis can quickly lock them down, especially if you can AoE it and not have a limit on how long you can keep it up.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-27, 03:43 PM
For reference, this is the presumption table that was used for the sorceror:

Design Table
{table=head] Level | Charisma/Modifier | SP | Attr. Modifiers
1 | 18/4 | 4 | -
2 | 18/4 | 9 | -
3 | 18/4 | 10 | -
4 | 19/4 | 11 | +1 Attrbute growth
5 | 21/5 | 13 | +2 item
6 | 21/5 | 14 | -
7 | 21/5 | 15 | -
8 | 22/6 | 17 | +1 Attribute growth
9 | 22/6 | 18 | -
10 | 24/7 | 20 | +4 item
11 | 24/7 | 21 | -
12 | 25/7 | 22 | +1 Attribute growth
13 | 25/7 | 23 | -
14 | 25/7 | 24 | -
15 | 27/8 | 26 | +6 item
16 | 29/8 | 27 | +1 tome
17 | 30/9 | 29 | +2 tome
18 | 31/9 | 30 | +3 tome
19 | 32/10 | 32 | +4 tome
20 | 34/11 | 34 | +1 Attribute growth, +5 tome [/table]

thegurullamen
2010-09-27, 03:53 PM
Maybe a damage ability for 2/4/8 SP and a minor non-damaging but otherwise annoying? Something like daze. Nothing as strong as stun until at least 8SP. Cutting your enemy's turns on a per-round basis can quickly lock them down, especially if you can AoE it and not have a limit on how long you can keep it up.

This is the exact problem with the original sorcerer. Cheap SoL/D's are too open to abuse. An 8SP stun move means that whenever you've got 8SP to spend, you're spending it on stun 90% of the time. (The other 10% of the time, you're facing a stun-immune enemy.) Cheaper effects are similarly hard to price. After all, it's not a matter of determining which effects are level appropriate, but if they're still balanced later on when you get access to them on top of other similar abilities (daze+fatigue or entangle+frighten or any other pairing you can think of.)

Soulblazer87
2010-09-27, 04:36 PM
Which is why I said 'at least 8Sp'. Depending on what Tier you want to go for, 8SP may just be the thing. Otherwise? At least 8SP, but more like 16.

By the way, if you look at the total SP on the table provided by Flax, it becomes obvious that you just can't do much at 20. More like, severely underpowered. That's why others suggest increasing SP from levels, one-and-a-half being good but double being better. Earlier access to the heavy guns and enough power to combine seeds later on.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-27, 05:17 PM
Perhaps the the DC for Sorceror spells needs to be changed. alter it so its based on the amount of SP spent on the biggest (or smallest) seed in a given spell. Or equal to the amount of SP spent divided by 2 or 3.

If he can toss out these status effects at will, then they need to have lower DCs than comparable effects tossed out by Wizards.

Tael
2010-09-27, 05:22 PM
I would make really impairing effect only available at higher levels, but SoSucks still available at lower levels. For example: Fatigued and shaken at 8 or 12, Nauseated at 16, and Dazed at 20 or something like that. I also like the idea of SP spent on the condition increasing the DC. If you have 28 SP, you have to spend all 28 to get a decent DC, otherwise it will be lower than a normal caster's.

Aran Banks
2010-09-27, 11:27 PM
Maybe say that you deal 1d6 damage/SP of the common energy types (Fire, Cold, maybe melee types like slashing in here too?)

Then 2d6/3 SP for less common (Elec, Acid)?

1d6/2 SP for rare (Force, sonic, negative)

1d6/3 SP for WTF? (dessication, positive pew-pew, etc.)

All spells always allow for no effects upon a successful save. It should cost just a few spell points to make that a diminished effect on a successful save, and a lot for it to go no-save. Ignoring SR should act similarly.

There should be Lose/Suck/Die effects. Which cost more and more depending on what you choose--starting maybe with demoralization and building up to death.

I believe a level 1 character should have at-will abilities allowing them to demoralize without a save, but subject to SR.

A level 20 character should have a Save v. Death subject to either a save OR spell resistance.

ON SAVES:
I'd prefer all saves to be based off 10 + 1/2 CL + StatMod, but I think saves should be based off of SP in keeping with the tradition of spell saves being based off of spell level (despite the fact that I've totally pitched that idea in my games).

MammonAzrael
2010-09-28, 10:13 PM
Hmm...I think it might help to see the Sorceror in the light of a Warlock. Seeds instead of Invocations, but multiple At-will abilities, and ways to modify their blasts. Warlocks aren't considered absurd even though they can hand out 2 negative levels to multiple opponents at will.

I feel their "ultimate" spells should be around the power of 8th level Wizard spells, and should be accessible at the same time, 17th level.

Since the Sorceror's Seeds naturally have to be more generic than a Wizard or Clerics spells (obviously they can't be super specialized and still be worth taking), damage and status effects and penalties are probably the call of the day, at least offensively speaking. And while endurance is something to take into account, remember that in a normal adventure the Wizard rarely has issues with its resource management after the first couple levels.

So...while damage is dictated by the amount of SP spent on a Seed, DC probably should too. I'm thinking that a proper DC would be easier to manage if it were based on the number of times you purchased an ability.

thegurullamen
2010-09-29, 02:28 AM
By the way, if you look at the total SP on the table provided by Flax, it becomes obvious that you just can't do much at 20. More like, severely underpowered. That's why others suggest increasing SP from levels, one-and-a-half being good but double being better. Earlier access to the heavy guns and enough power to combine seeds later on.

I see the logic here, but at the moment, I'm more concerned with redoing the seeds than rebalancing the current effects.


I would make really impairing effect only available at higher levels, but SoSucks still available at lower levels. For example: Fatigued and shaken at 8 or 12, Nauseated at 16, and Dazed at 20 or something like that. I also like the idea of SP spent on the condition increasing the DC. If you have 28 SP, you have to spend all 28 to get a decent DC, otherwise it will be lower than a normal caster's.

Are those numbers levels or SP? Because there's a huge difference. All in all, this seems like the best way forward, but see below for issues I've encountered/am encountering.


All spells always allow for no effects upon a successful save. It should cost just a few spell points to make that a diminished effect on a successful save, and a lot for it to go no-save. Ignoring SR should act similarly.

There should be Lose/Suck/Die effects. Which cost more and more depending on what you choose--starting maybe with demoralization and building up to death.

We're getting into very, very complicated territory here. Keep in mind that each seed requires a rundown of its particular effects AND that every effect needs to be balanced against every other seed's effects to keep each one viable as an option and balanced. If we use SP to determine every variable of a sorcerer's spells, we risk stretching it too thin and breaking the whole mechanic. Considering how simple a mechanic it is to start with, it wouldn't be hard to do at all.

And again, I agree with scaling effects based on cost/level. Hell, I tried to implement it to mixed (at best) success. The problem is, again, balance. (See below.)

(As for the numbers, 1d6 damage per level is too high. At that rate, you're outdamaging the blaster-wizard for the first 10-12 levels. The ideal rate Fax and I are going for is about 1/2 inching up to 2/3 d6:level ratio around level 15.)


Hmm...I think it might help to see the Sorceror in the light of a Warlock. Seeds instead of Invocations, but multiple At-will abilities, and ways to modify their blasts. Warlocks aren't considered absurd even though they can hand out 2 negative levels to multiple opponents at will.

I hate to admit my own unoriginality here, but that was the tack I took with this new version. Blasts + effects = ice cream.


I feel their "ultimate" spells should be around the power of 8th level Wizard spells, and should be accessible at the same time, 17th level.

Can't say I disagree in spirit, but it's going to be difficult whittling down 8th-level-esque effects into seed-oriented effects. Because it has been and continues to be difficult. The biggest problem is the formatting. Modularity meant I had to fit the abilities into a simpler system of single-target effects to a) keep the abilities consistent, b) keep secrets relevant and c) keep the abilities on the same relative power-standing. (It might not look that way, but I've got a Docs folder full of far, far worse alternatives.) Unfortunately, restricting myself to single-target effects that can also function as area effect spells while ALSO worrying about individuality across approx. 12 seeds meant the appropriate debuffs/status effects got spread thin.

Right now, I'm looking at 2 possibilities for the next iteration: either a long list of debuffs to work with (far more extensive than the current set) or a new system. Advice on either would help a ton.


Since the Sorceror's Seeds naturally have to be more generic than a Wizard or Clerics spells (obviously they can't be super specialized and still be worth taking), damage and status effects and penalties are probably the call of the day, at least offensively speaking. And while endurance is something to take into account, remember that in a normal adventure the Wizard rarely has issues with its resource management after the first couple levels.

So...while damage is dictated by the amount of SP spent on a Seed, DC probably should too. I'm thinking that a proper DC would be easier to manage if it were based on the number of times you purchased an ability.

I like the first part, but the second seems like adding another layer of complexity to a system already plagued with complex issues. Not to say the idea isn't good; I can easily see it fitting into the system down the line. It's just not a primary concern at the moment. I'd like to fix the base SP, damage-to-effects system before moving onto DC concerns.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-29, 04:25 PM
Hmm....I think the first step in reworking the damage to acceptable levels is to determine how much we want to see being handed out at various levels. Since we're talking damage at-will, we should be looking at the expected damage of the various melee classes, and then sliding under that cap (as the Sorceror is ranged and using touch attacks and will have elemental variance). So...how much damage are we expecting to see come out of a reasonably optimized Barbarian, Dreadnought, Fencer, and Warlord? Or perhaps closer to a Rogue? At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20? Are we expecting rocket tag in later levels, or more traded blows like in 4th?

And that doesn't touch the issue of full attacks...should the Sorceror have an option to spend a full round casting something more damaging or debilitating?

As for the debuffs...I think scaling penalties should be more populous than straight status effects. Like scaling penalties to various stats or rolls. It would be easier to scale with SP, and offer a decent variety.

thegurullamen
2010-09-30, 12:05 AM
As for the debuffs...I think scaling penalties should be more populous than straight status effects. Like scaling penalties to various stats or rolls. It would be easier to scale with SP, and offer a decent variety.

Good ideas. Fax'll have to check in about the ideal damage point for the classes, but I stand by my original rough estimate (1d6/2CL for levels 1-9, 2d6/3CL after that.) for the time being.

The quoted portion is a little vague. Can you give me a few examples? (-X/Y amount of SP to a single specific saving throw or what?)

MammonAzrael
2010-09-30, 05:28 PM
Well...using the Ice Seed as an example:

Ice
Save: Fort half

Exert:
1SP: +1 cold damage
3SP: +1d6 cold damage and target takes a -2 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
12SP: +4d6 cold damage and the target takes a -4 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
18SP: +6d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 and target takes a -4 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
24SP: +9d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 and target takes a -6 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. If target fails its save it is slowed for (Cha mod) rounds.
30SP: +12d6 cold damage, 4 Dexterity damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 20, and is slowed for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. If target fails its save it is frozen solid (petrified, ice instead of stone) permanently.


So if they make their save, the damage, penalty, and resistance reduction is reduced by half. And using penalties they means they don't stack, so it gives an additional reason to buy a higher point value.

thegurullamen
2010-10-01, 02:34 AM
Well...using the Ice Seed as an example:

Ice
Save: Fort half

Exert:
1SP: +1 cold damage
3SP: +1d6 cold damage and target takes a -2 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
12SP: +4d6 cold damage and the target takes a -4 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
18SP: +6d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 and target takes a -4 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
24SP: +9d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 and target takes a -6 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. If target fails its save it is slowed for (Cha mod) rounds.
30SP: +12d6 cold damage, 4 Dexterity damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 20, and is slowed for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. If target fails its save it is frozen solid (petrified, ice instead of stone) permanently.


So if they make their save, the damage, penalty, and resistance reduction is reduced by half. And using penalties they means they don't stack, so it gives an additional reason to buy a higher point value.

Well, that's impressively elegant. As far as I'm concerned, that's the new Ice seed. I'll try to work on the other seeds to get something similar. If anyone else wants to do the same, that would be great.

MammonAzrael
2010-10-01, 02:39 AM
Well, that's impressively elegant. As far as I'm concerned, that's the new Ice seed. I'll try to work on the other seeds to get something similar. If anyone else wants to do the same, that would be great.

:smallbiggrin: Thanks. I didn't touch the Imbuements because those still have a base problem that needs to be tackled. I'll see what I can come up with for the other seeds in terms of Exerts....though no promises they're ready tonight! :smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2010-10-01, 08:10 AM
Well...using the Ice Seed as an example:

Ice
Save: Fort half

Exert:
1SP: +1 cold damage
3SP: +1d6 cold damage and target takes a -2 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
12SP: +4d6 cold damage and the target takes a -4 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
18SP: +6d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 and target takes a -4 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.
24SP: +9d6 cold damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 10 and target takes a -6 penalty to Dexterity for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. If target fails its save it is slowed for (Cha mod) rounds.
30SP: +12d6 cold damage, 4 Dexterity damage, target's cold resistance is reduced by 20, and is slowed for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. If target fails its save it is frozen solid (petrified, ice instead of stone) permanently.


So if they make their save, the damage, penalty, and resistance reduction is reduced by half. And using penalties they means they don't stack, so it gives an additional reason to buy a higher point value.

Problems with this:

The penalties shouldn't be higher than the damage. Penalties are also better than damage, in that immunity to ability penalties is nigh impossible. It can't drop somebody to zero, but... it's not really likely to do that anyway.

No save slow is actually really, really powerful as an effect tacked on to a save or die.

The dex penalties don't really help this class at all, since the enemies dex doesn't matter.

MammonAzrael
2010-10-01, 12:23 PM
Problems with this:

The penalties shouldn't be higher than the damage. Penalties are also better than damage, in that immunity to ability penalties is nigh impossible. It can't drop somebody to zero, but... it's not really likely to do that anyway.

No save slow is actually really, really powerful as an effect tacked on to a save or die.

The dex penalties don't really help this class at all, since the enemies dex doesn't matter.

Penalties higher than damage? How/what now? Since penalties don't stack, they're never a huge debuff. Admittedly it might be better to move the -2 up to the 12 SP slot. And while immunity to damage is more common, damage is still better since it lasts longer and can stack. It might help if the duration of the effects were lowered.

Yeah, the 30 seed is supposed to be powerful, so the slow as a lv 8-9 equivalent spell I felt was acceptable though. The save or die, I was thinking about last night, and should probably only apply if the target is already slowed. Remember that it is one of their best spells, and that I still feel like the DC system needs to be fixed.

And finally...ok? Other Seeds would dish out other penalties. I went with Dexterity for Ice because it seemed to fit the best. That's like saying Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't make sense because a Wizard doesn't care about a target's strength. :smallconfused:

How would you change the Seeds? What do you suggest?

Aran Banks
2010-10-01, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't say "8-9 level spell" for balance. Remember, these spells are at-will. We should be balancing them to maneuvers of their kind. So drop the dex and nerf the slow on that Ice Seed.

... also, someone said 1d6/SP is too much because it's better than a blaster wizard? The Warmage and his friends, disintegrate and fireball, would like to have a word with you.

EDIT: I'd actually like to see each seed gain 3 categories: Buffs, Blasts, and SoD-style powers, with maybe 3 entries in each.

Say for Fire: (also, how long are durations? I can't remember if there was already something deciding this)
BUFF
SP 1: Fire Resistance 2 (stacks if you take it multiple times)
SP 10: Fire Immunity
SP 15: Immunity to Daze... or maybe Stun? (I always forget the difference. Pick one)

BLAST
SP 1: 1d6 fire damage
SP 1: Ignore 1 (maybe 2. feedback pl0x) point of Fire Resistance on blast target(s)
SP 2: 1d6 hellfire or divine fire

DEBUFF
SP 8: Save v. -2 on 2 of (attack rolls, AC, or saves).
SP 16: Target must make a reflex save to cast spells or attack (10 + .5 class level + StatMod)
SP 24: Mindfire Save v. Insanity for 1 round. Successful save results in SP 8 effect (no save there)

And every capstone ability (the one that costs the most SP) should have a name, because it sounds cool that way.

MammonAzrael
2010-10-01, 12:47 PM
I wouldn't say "8-9 level spell" for balance. Remember, these spells are at-will. We should be balancing them to maneuvers of their kind. So drop the dex and nerf the slow on that Ice Seed.

True, but how often do Wizards run out of prepared spells? Honestly, unless the DM is forcing the issue and trying to make them run out, how often? Regardless you're correct in that top abilities should probably be 7-8th level.


... also, someone said 1d6/SP is too much because it's better than a blaster wizard? The Warmage and his friends, disintegrate and fireball, would like to have a word with you.

Yes, but they are notable limited, and more importantly, a bit boring. A properly built Sorceror will have 45 SP a around to play with at lv 20, so 45d6 elemental ranged damage a round (~157.5 damage) seems more than a little crazy. Even just assuming a straight Charisma Sorcerer, they'll have 34d6, or ~119 damage at will. Pretty crazy.

Aran Banks
2010-10-01, 01:13 PM
a) Well, if that's true, then all ToB classes should get stronger maneuvers (like, a whole level stronger) because wizards don't run out of spells.

The idea is that this is a mechanic made for at-will powers. The closest balance point for at-will powers is ToB. As a result, it makes total sense to apply the balance to ToB. You can disagree with that logic, but I find it to be a valid argument.

b) Let me see... CR 20 monsters... Tarrasque: Immune to Fire (858 HP), Balor: Immune to Fire, Electricity, and Acid (290 HP), Black Wyrm: Immune to Acid (459 HP), Brass Dragon: Immune to Fire (387 HP), Bronze Dragon: Immune to Electricity (375), Copper Dragon: Immune to Acid (362), Pit Fiend: Immune to Acid and Poison with Regeneration 5 (255), Red Dragon: Immune to Fire (378), Silver Dragon: Immune to Acid and Cold (350).

Yeah, I'm fine with 160 damage at level 20, especially since it rides on a save and only hits one target.

MammonAzrael
2010-10-01, 01:48 PM
ToB is a valid argument, but they can ad plenty of riders not including more damage. Hell, Tiger Claw has a literal Save or Die. I'm agreeing that the 30 SP should be toned down a bit, but I think you're underestimating ToB 9ths.
And with just a small reduction in damage it can hit many more targets, or be based on an attack roll. But pure damage gets boring. So why aren't you ok with ~42 damage and some powerful effects based on saves?

thegurullamen
2010-10-01, 01:51 PM
I wouldn't say "8-9 level spell" for balance. Remember, these spells are at-will. We should be balancing them to maneuvers of their kind. So drop the dex and nerf the slow on that Ice Seed.

I'm not following this argument. A non-stacking -2/4/6 Dex penalty at middle-low to mid levels is relatively weak. At first level, a wizard can throw out a harsher penalty to strength with a 1st level spell.

And the slow effect is only guaranteed on the highest level of SP expenditure. The rest are save-or-suck. Furthermore, it's only a 3rd level spell. How in the world is it overpowered to have a non-save Slow effect at level 17?


... also, someone said 1d6/SP is too much because it's better than a blaster wizard? The Warmage and his friends, disintegrate and fireball, would like to have a word with you.

EDIT: I'd actually like to see each seed gain 3 categories: Buffs, Blasts, and SoD-style powers, with maybe 3 entries in each.

And every capstone ability (the one that costs the most SP) should have a name, because it sounds cool that way.

Disintegrate and fireball are limited. The first takes a relatively rare 6th level spot, and the latter maxes out at 10d6, even at level 20.

And again, we're getting too close to the original sorceror. The SP mechanic can only handle so much modularity and cherrypicking which effects plus which damage plus which buffs you can cast each round is too much. If I see a series of seeds where someone can get this to work and the math works out, I'll amend this position, but until then, I cannot see it happening.

Aran Banks
2010-10-01, 02:06 PM
ToB is a valid argument, but they can ad plenty of riders not including more damage. Hell, Tiger Claw has a literal Save or Die. I'm agreeing that the 30 SP should be toned down a bit, but I think you're underestimating ToB 9ths.
And with just a small reduction in damage it can hit many more targets, or be based on an attack roll. But pure damage gets boring. So why aren't you ok with ~42 damage and some powerful effects based on saves?


I'd PREFER ~42 damage and some "Save or Scream and roll around" effect. But if somebody wants to shoot fire out of every pore in his body, he should be allowed to.

Also, if it comes down to a Sorcerer needing to destroy a building via direct damage or something, who would say no to the ability to take it out x3 faster? And turning yourself into an acetylene torch is incredibly awesome for RP.

Just saying it needs to be a possibility. Not the best tactical decision, no, but a possibility.

---

@thegurallamen: Drop the Dex penalty because it's pointless (somebody above said that), and nerf the slow because it's at will. In any combat, winning the initaitve means you've just beat one opponent on the battlefield. You can kite and blast and the opponent can't keep up because there's no way for them to avoid the slow. BBEG potency is suddenly gone.

As for your other argument, I just named 2 spells. The first one has equivalent blasting as to what I've named above (1d6/level) all the way up to level 10, and it's not considered strong on its own by any stretch of the imagination. As soon as you hit level 11, say you can use Disintegrate. That's DOUBLE the suggested damage, and IT ISN'T TYPED.

So the fact that you're saying these spells are weak (I'm not sure if that's actually your argument for the second one) only proves my point that 1d6/level standard energy damage is totally fine.

And then that paragraph where "I don't think this project will work". Well thanks for your support!

thegurullamen
2010-10-01, 02:44 PM
As for your other argument, I just named 2 spells. The first one has equivalent blasting as to what I've named above (1d6/level) all the way up to level 10, and it's not considered strong on its own by any stretch of the imagination. As soon as you hit level 11, say you can use Disintegrate. That's DOUBLE the suggested damage, and IT ISN'T TYPED.

So the fact that you're saying these spells are weak (I'm not sure if that's actually your argument for the second one) only proves my point that 1d6/level standard energy damage is totally fine.

And then that paragraph where "I don't think this project will work". Well thanks for your support!

The first has the equivalent blasting of up to 10d6, true. But that's an insurmountable cap. And the second, though twice as powerful and available at 11th level, is available fewer times per day. That is an important factor. Saying that it's okay for one class to deal 20d6 damage a round because another can do over twice that amount means little when the second class can only do it a few times a day and the first can do it more often than blink.

And look, if you want to try to get the original system to work out, that's fine. Have fun. But from my experience, (and I tinkered with that bastard a lot) it's too much of a mess for anything balanced to come of it. Just thought I'd try to save you some time wandering over the same areas I did.

Soulblazer87
2010-10-12, 02:27 PM
For the record, and just because I do like this class, if you don't mind, I'll try re-forming it. At least in part. Also, I'll gather the seeds and whatever else I think about in one catalogue. Keep in mind, I'm doing this anyway, just because this class is awesome. The whole point of asking is; would you mind if I reposted it here or another site? I was thinking dungeons wikia, since it helps when I edit stuff over there.

Fako
2010-10-16, 01:05 AM
I have a possible idea for Exertions. Since attaching the save-or-suck effects to the damage makes it too restrictive, and keeping them separate makes the class too powerful, why not require a minimum investment on the spell before a save-or-suck can be added? That way, you can mix the save effects you want with different damage types. You could also add 1 SP "visual effects" to allow them to burn SP for the save-or-sucks without using damage.

Note that the example below has all numbers just thrown in on a whim.

Tim the Sorceror wants to Blind an Ogre. Blind costs 2 SP and has a minimum investment (MI) of 5, so he must spend 5 SP on other effects in addition to the 2 SP for Blind, for a total of 7 SP.

Adding more than one save effect would require you to meet the MI of all effects before spending SP on them. So if Blind costs 2 SP with 5 MI, and Deaf costs 1 SP with 3 MI, then using both would require you to spend 8 SP to meet the MI before you spend 3 on the save effects. This would (I think) help prevent stacking of multiple save-or-suck effects on a single spell, due to the rapidly increasing MI value needed to maintain all of them.