Confused about sneak attack and HiPS

[randomhero00]

1. Say its a surprise round, they're flat footed and you can somehow make a full attack. Does every attack gain sneak attack?

2. Say you're using hide in plain sight, you make a full attack, does every attack get SA or just the first?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

1. Say its a surprise round, they're flat footed and you can somehow make a full attack. Does every attack gain sneak attack?
Yes. You get Sneak Attack for every attack that qualifies. And a flat-footed opponent is denied their AC bonus against each attack until they get to act.


2. Say you're using hide in plain sight, you make a full attack, does every attack get SA or just the first?
Just the first. Hide In Plain Sight only lets you hide while being observed. It does not keep you from revealing yourself with an attack.

The closest you get to being able to remain hidden after an attack is using the rule on Sniping with ranged attacks. However, this requires a move action, which prevents you from taking a full attack.

(Note that the “None” action for using the Hide skill is qualified as being folded into some other move action. This does not indicate an ability to make multiple Hide checks in a round.)

[DragoonWraith]

There's definitely a way to make a Hide check to avoid being seen after attacking... You take a ridiculous penalty, but it does exist.

Plus things like being invisible obviate the need for Hiding to get Sneak Attack - even if they know you're there, not being able to see you prevents them from defending against it.

[Greenish]

Plus things like being invisible obviate the need for Hiding to get Sneak Attack - even if they know you're there, not being able to see you prevents them from defending against it.Unless they happen to have See Invisibility or the like. Part of the charm of HiPS and hiding is that there isn't a hard counter for them (that is, assuming you have Darkstalker from LoM, otherwise there're quite a few counters for it).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

There's definitely a way to make a Hide check to avoid being seen after attacking... You take a ridiculous penalty, but it does exist.
The sniping rule only applies to ranged attacks at least 10 ft. away and requires a move action. Can’t full attack with sniping.

[randomhero00]

So wait, with normal invisibility can I make a full attack with SA?

Basically what's the most reliable way (outside of flanking and surprise rounds) to get a full attack/SA? Improved Invis is the only thing I can think of but that's not till higher levels (but I've never played a rogue.)

[DragoonWraith]

So wait, with normal invisibility can I make a full attack with SA?
No, sorry if that was confusing. I meant the "invisible" condition, not the spell "Invisibility" - since Invisibility ends immediately after making an attack, you can only get Sneak Attack once that way.


Basically what's the most reliable way (outside of flanking and surprise rounds) to get a full attack/SA? Improved Invis is the only thing I can think of but that's not till higher levels (but I've never played a rogue.)
Grease and Marbles both cause anyone standing on them to be balancing, and if you check the Balance skill description, anyone with 5 or fewer ranks in Balance loses their Dex to AC while balancing, so that's a very good way to get Sneak Attack.

[Greenish]

So wait, with normal invisibility can I make a full attack with SA?No, you'd need Greater Invis.


Basically what's the most reliable way (outside of flanking and surprise rounds) to get a full attack/SA? Improved Invis is the only thing I can think of but that's not till higher levels (but I've never played a rogue.)Ring of Blinking is often voiced suggestion. Marbles or anything else that causes the enemy to balance works on enemies with less than 5 ranks in the skill.

[Edit]:
anyone with 5 or fewer ranks in Balance loses their Dex to AC while balancing, so that's a very good way to get Sneak Attack.No, 5 ranks is enough, and otherwise they're considered flat footed (so valid for Iaijutsu Focus), but if they have Uncanny Dodge they don't lose dex to AC and thus can't be Sneak Attacked.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So wait, with normal invisibility can I make a full attack with SA?
If by “Normal Invisibility” you mean the spell, invisibility, no. You lose your invisibility on your first attack.

Invisibility is a condition/special ability, not just a spell. Only the 2nd-level spell invisibility or anything that says it works as that spell has the attack limit on its duration.


Basically what's the most reliable way (outside of flanking and surprise rounds) to get a full attack/SA? Improved Invis is the only thing I can think of but that's not till higher levels (but I've never played a rogue.)
A Ninja’s (Complete Adventurer) Ghost Step ability grants invisibility for one round and is usable as a swift action. They also have Sudden Strike, which behaves as sneak attack, only it doesn’t work with flanking. So you get full attack from concealment quite a bit, but you lose out on the option to deal that damage with flanking.

[DragoonWraith]

Ah, good catch. I knew 5 was enough, that was just poor wording, but I didn't realize that it made one Flat-Footed; that's pretty sweet.

[Greenish]

Ah, good catch. I knew 5 was enough, that was just poor wording, but I didn't realize that it made one Flat-Footed; that's pretty sweet.Indeed, it has a few amusing if less than obvious consequences. Namely, flat footed prevents from using Attacks of Opportunity (without Combat Reflexes) and from using Immediate Actions. An interesting way to counter counters, eh?

[Edit]: Shadow Hand has a maneuver to become invisible (as Greater Invisibility) for a round with a swift action. Level 6 non-initiator can pick it up as a feat for 1/encounter, though a swordsage dip is probably better (even if their maneuver replenishment method will most likely not see much use).

[DragoonWraith]

That's only on your turn, though - something that caught me recently in a game. Works perfectly well for using Sneak Attack, but not for general sneaking. Worth being aware of.

[randomhero00]

What's Iaijutsu Focus? I'm AFB

[Greenish]

What's Iaijutsu Focus? I'm AFBA skill from OA. Not terribly relevant for the topic (basically, when you draw a weapon and immediately attack a flat footed opponent, you get to roll a skill check to deal some extra damage).

[Edit]:
That's only on your turn, though - something that caught me recently in a game. Works perfectly well for using Sneak Attack, but not for general sneaking. Worth being aware of.Well, that depends on how far one has to sneak. :smallwink:

But yeah, that's a bit of a bummer.

[Yuki Akuma]

What's Iaijutsu Focus? I'm AFB

It's a skill that lets you add extra damage when attacking a flat-footed opponent, as long as you draw your weapon directly before attacking.

It's from Oriental Adventures. I don't think it was ever updated to 3.5, which means the OA version is still usable. Except only the Factotum and Expert have it as a class skill.

[DragoonWraith]

Human Paragon could too.

[Greenish]

It's from Oriental Adventures. I don't think it was ever updated to 3.5, which means the OA version is still usable. Except only the Factotum and Expert have it as a class skill.Well, factotum has it as a class skill, Expert (and human paragon, and noble, and others who get to set their own skill lists) can take it.

[lsfreak]

You take a -20 to your Hide checks while attacking. Given high enough Hide modifiers, you can attack while hiding and still get SA off. Iirc, you move up (hide check while moving), attack (hide check after attacking), attack (hide check after attacking), etc. If your target sees you, your next attack doesn't get SA, but you can continue trying to hide after each attack.

About the earliest I've found you can reasonably do this is around level 10. At that point in time, you should have:
- 13 ranks
- +6 Dex
- +10 competence bonus (via shadow armor or something else)
- +2 circumstance bonus (masterwork item of hiding)
That there is relatively simple and gives you a +11 to hide while attacking (+31 normally), which certainly isn't foolproof but can be useful. The 1st-level PsyWarrior power chameleon gets you a +10 enhancement bonus to Hide (potentially available on a dorje). Hat of anonymity is an untyped +5 bonus, and by level 10 you can potentially afford more like a +15 competence bonus to Hide. Various templates (Dark, Shadow) also grant bonuses.

EDIT: Another method of getting sneak attack is via a 2-level dip in monk, depending on how you're wanting to build your character. Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, but doesn't require and evil alignment) lets you go invisible once every 3 rounds. Since it's the condition, not the spell, it's effectively 1/3rnd greater invisibility as an immediate action.