Haley's Dad (More Epileptic Trees)

[FoE]

On the slim chance I'm right about this, Rich, you should turn back now.

I had a crazy notion that Haley's dad might be ...

... the white-haired gladiator that gave Roy advice on how to avoid going into the arena.

I have no proof beyond the fact hat he has a beard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) like Haley's dad and he's really good at
dodging (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html), much like a high-level rogue.

It's a big leap from "good at dodging" to "Haley's dad," but I've got a feeling that was plot-relevant somehow.

Granted, he's a bit unkempt compared to how he looked in Haley's flashback, but he's been a gladiatoral slave for at least several months. Proper grooming ain't an option.

[Maxios]

Bah! He is obviously one of the opponents Roy or Belkar will fight later on! Or will be eaten by the Ollysaurus,

[Ron Miel]

You are not the first person to make that speculation. I think there's about 1 chance in 3 that it's correct. Not totally unlikely.

Evidence for it ...



Use of the phrase [something] is my best skill.

Haley: Hiding is my best skill
old man : Not dying is one of my best skills.

Plus the fact that Ian's hair was beginning to go white last time we saw him.

[blackjack217]

Haley's dad is shown to not trust anyone and being imprisoned after being lured to the southern continent with a fake message would not make him more trusting.

[Crisis21]

Haley's dad is shown to not trust anyone and being imprisoned after being lured to the southern continent with a fake message would not make him more trusting.

Assuming he is Haley's dad, he hasn't told Roy or Belkar this, has he? He hasn't told them anything that they couldn't deduce for themselves so far. This fact does not in any way make him trusting.

[FoE]

Haley's dad is shown to not trust anyone and being imprisoned after being lured to the southern continent with a fake message would not make him more trusting.

How is he acting "trusting"?

All he did was give some young fellow slaves some advice.


Assuming he is Haley's dad, he hasn't told Roy or Belkar this, has he? He hasn't told them anything that they couldn't deduce for themselves so far. This fact does not in any way make him trusting.

Not that I disagree with you, but how would he even know that Roy and Belkar are part of his daughter's adventuring party?

[Heksefatter]

This is actually quite plausible. And the fact that he does share information with Roy does not go against it, as I do believe that Haley's father, while paranoid, is mostly good-hearted.

It's a possibility, at least.

[Crisis21]

Not that I disagree with you, but how would he even know that Roy and Belkar are part of his daughter's adventuring party?

He wouldn't, which is part of my point. If he was going around telling complete strangers about his life and family prior to imprisonment, that would be considered 'trusting'. IF he is Haley's dad, he has nothing to gain by letting others know this, so he wouldn't speak of it.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

It's a fairly plausible theory, but not one that I am a particular supporter of. I don't really have any counter-arguments per se, but something just seems...off.

[ferrodoxin]

I know its hard to tell faces apart in a stick figure, but Ian has less distance between his eyes & mouth as compared to that prison guy. There was nothing to indicate that he was imprisoned in a gladiatoral arena in Haley's letter or Bozzok's words. Bozzok told some friends to keep Ian away, so he was incarcerated for a long time, and the letter said: "a period not to exceed the natural span of his life", I'm sure we can all agree that doesn't sound like a gladiatoral arena. Of course the political climate is quite unstable in the western continet, so he could have easily changed prisons, but he could just as easily have broken out of prison. Also we saw him last when Haley was 19, she is now what? 25? I don't expect him to change that much over a few years, even in bad conditions, seeing as how Haley already said his dad could handle prison.

So the new theory is, Tarquin & Ian are brothers. Why?
- Tarquin had a chaotic good brother and thats why he tried to raise Elan & Nale with the same dramatic tension
- Nothing is as funny as an unintended consanguineous relationship
- Why the hell not?

[FoE]

There was nothing to indicate that he was imprisoned in a gladiatoral arena in Haley's letter or Bozzok's words.

Yes, but Tyrinaria has since fallen and the Empire of Blood has taken its place. Maybe the EoB just inherited Tyrinaria's prison population and decided to put them to work in teh arean.


Also we saw him last when Haley was 19, she is now what? 25? I don't expect him to change that much over a few years, even in bad conditions, seeing as how Haley already said his dad could handle prison.

17, and his hair was starting to turn gray. Haley's in mid-twenties, approximately, so it's been nearly a decade.

[zimmerwald1915]

I know its hard to tell faces apart in a stick figure, but Ian has less distance between his eyes & mouth as compared to that prison guy.
The old gladiator's also significantly paler than Haley's dad in FoE's link. If they were the same person, I would have expected the opposite, what with the climate being significantly warmer in the EoB than in Greysky, and what with the compulsory outdoor activity versus long evenings of skulking about in attics and crawlspaces.

[Morquard]

Of course the political climate is quite unstable in the western continet, so he could have easily changed prisons, but he could just as easily have broken out of prison.
Everyone seems to assume that Haley's dad is actually high level enough for that. There's no indication that he is, he might be a 4th level rogue or something, and at his time in the thiefs guild that was maybe one of the high-levels.


Also we saw him last when Haley was 19, she is now what? 25? I don't expect him to change that much over a few years, even in bad conditions, seeing as how Haley already said his dad could handle prison.
Don't forget one thing:
OOtS World is ruled by D&D rules. In D&D there is no gradual aging, but only a handful of age categories.
35 to 52 years is "Middle Age" and from 53 to 69 is "Old". So basicly a 35 and 52 year old would look very much the same then the next day it's their birthday and the now 53 old one has gotten white hair and wrinkles.

Haley's dad could have gone over that threshhold in those 6 years quite easily.

[Dr.Epic]

Good at dodging and has a beard. You just described Durkon fighting giants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html). Could he be Haley's real father?!?!?:smalleek: As we've seen, she does seem to embrace alcohol and Thor very openly and strongly.

[Mr. Snuggles]

If you're holding a prisoner for ransom, the last thing you want to do is put him in the arena to die. :smallannoyed:

"Oh, it's been two years but you finally raised the 2 million GP for the ransom? Great, here's your father...whoops our records say that he lost his first fight in the arena three weeks after we took him prisoner. I guess we'll have to refuse your 2 million GP! Please don't think of using the money to take revenge, like hiring assassins or raising an army."

[whitelaughter]

It's more likely to be "right, you've got the gold? Cough it up then. Your father? Yeah, we've got him, he's behind that assassination team. Honest."

[Themrys]

If you're holding a prisoner for ransom, the last thing you want to do is put him in the arena to die. :smallannoyed:


Unfortunately, no. Reality proves that the opposite is the case. Kidnappers often kill the victim and take the money.
Haley wouldn't normally fall for this, but since her father is held ransom by an evil overlord, not by some petty criminals, there's nothing she can do about it.

[Swordpriest]

If you're holding a prisoner for ransom, the last thing you want to do is put him in the arena to die. :smallannoyed:

"Oh, it's been two years but you finally raised the 2 million GP for the ransom? Great, here's your father...whoops our records say that he lost his first fight in the arena three weeks after we took him prisoner. I guess we'll have to refuse your 2 million GP! Please don't think of using the money to take revenge, like hiring assassins or raising an army."

I can see Tyrinaria not wanting to kill him off, but this isn't the same bunch who held him to ransom.

Never having seen the letter, the EoB wouldn't know he was worth a penny, unless Tyrinaria wrote all correspondence in triplicate and kept a couple of copies (and the letters weren't burned by accident during the takeover, and the EoB read over every bit of stored correspondence carefully when they took over, which is fairly unlikely, since they're probably busy establishing their own tyrannical bureaucratic regime).

So, what I'm saying is, the EoB could easily "inherit" Ian Starshine as a prisoner without realizing he was worth 2 million gold pieces.

[ZeroNumerous]

If you're holding a prisoner for ransom, the last thing you want to do is put him in the arena to die. :smallannoyed:

A) They're Evil. Killing the prisoner means you don't have to feed him and can still take the money from whoever tries to pay up. Plus, it's not like Haley would have any way of knowing he was dead.

B) The people who were actually holding him for ransom were conquered and replaced by the new administration. Said administration put him in the gladiatorial arena.

[Kish]

If you're holding a prisoner for ransom, the last thing you want to do is put him in the arena to die. :smallannoyed:

"Oh, it's been two years but you finally raised the 2 million GP for the ransom? Great, here's your father...whoops our records say that he lost his first fight in the arena three weeks after we took him prisoner. I guess we'll have to refuse your 2 million GP! Please don't think of using the money to take revenge, like hiring assassins or raising an army."
Well before there are any indicated ambiguity about Tyrinaria being a powerful and going concern, I thought it was astoundingly stupid of Haley to think that "give them the money they want to consider granting clemency" was actually more likely to get her father back than "break him out."

[Nimrod's Son]

17, and his hair was starting to turn gray. Haley's in mid-twenties, approximately, so it's been nearly a decade.
No, Haley was 19 when we last saw Ian, and he had a hint of white hair around his temples. To think that his hair has gone completely white (beard and all) AND he's developed wrinkles in just six years seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

[Swordpriest]

No, Haley was 19 when we last saw Ian, and he had a hint of white hair around his temples. To think that his hair has gone completely white (beard and all) AND he's developed wrinkles in just six years seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

Going white is no problem -- according to historical accounts, at least, the British commander Charles George Gordon had his hair go completely white during the siege of Khartoum by the Mahdi's forces.

The wrinkles are harder to explain, though -- I agree it's probably not him. Maybe 80% no, 20% yes? :smallwink:

[Xykeb Zraliv]

I think the main problem I have with this (apart from the aforementioned age/appearance debate) is that the guy just doesn't seem like Ian. He's just too eccentric and weird, particularly the bit about the leeches. I would expect that, if the Giant were to pull something like that, he would at least act plausibly similar to Ian.

[Prospekt]

Stress could do it. People tend to age faster when they live in poor conditions and are under a lot of stress.

I don't think it would be her dad, though. It's plausible, but... you can't go thinking that any random character who comes along is important every time. Rich probably put them in just to explain that you need to appear mediocre to survive, because somebody had to tell Roy.

[Nimrod's Son]

It's plausible, but... you can't go thinking that any random character who comes along is important every time.
Pfft. It's a white guy with a beard, what more proof do you need?

[Lord Bingo]

On the slim chance I'm right about this, Rich, you should turn back now.[/SPOILER]

If you are right, Rich already knows:smallwink:

As it is I don't think you are right. Here's why:

First of all the two prisoners seem to have been there for significantly longer than Haley's father could have been -as indicated by the severely dated pop culture reference.
Also, they are way too old for one of them to be Haley's father, as is indicated by the wrinkles/bags around their eyes. As an example, when we saw Xykon at the age of around 60 the only indication of his age was the whitening of his hair. When first we saw Xykon with wrinkles (and sunken cheeks) he was around 80-85 years old. I'd estimate that the two geezers are around 70.

[vitorgas]

i made a quick comparisson of the two characters and they look VERY similar to each other
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6026/sdadfh.jpg

it looks that rich even used the same base model for the two characters, look at the vector detail at the top of the bear and the style (and the position) of the feets

[Swordpriest]

i made a quick comparisson of the two characters and they look VERY similar to each other

[Image omitted for space considerations]

it looks that rich even used the same base model for the two characters, look at the vector detail at the top of the bear and the style (and the position) of the feets

Dang -- you've almost got me convinced. :smalleek:

[runekiri]

I've read that people age faster if they live in high temperatures, and since it's probably very warm there, the increase in aging could have something to do with him already having wrinkles.

[Nimrod's Son]

Loads of characters have their feet positioned like that (Elan, to pick just one example), and their faces look plenty different to me - the beard has only passing similarities and the distance between the eyes and the beard is much greater on the gladiator.

And in any case, if Rich did use Ian as a base template (and I don't believe he did), that doesn't prove anything. After all, Thog is a straight-up recolouring of Roy, with a set of added fangs.

[Mordaenor]

Well, aside from the fact that really poor jail conditions could easily make a man look a lot older in just a few years, I'd also assert that "age" and "time" are kind of arbitrary in this comic, and things only take as long as the Giant needs them to.

As evidence, I point out the tale of Lord Shojo:

We know Soon started his quest 66 years ago.
We know Shojo has ruled for 47 years.
66-47 = 19

This means in just 19 Years:
Soon's quest, culminating in the forming of the Sapphire Guard
Soon grew to Old Age and passed on command of the guard to Shojo's father
Shojo's FATHER grew to Old Age and passed on command to Shojo.

Does this seem like a very short amount of time to anyone else?
Against that, Ian Starshine becoming an old man in just 6 years doesn't seem like such a stretch.

[vitorgas]

Loads of characters have their feet positioned like that (Elan, to pick just one example), and their faces look plenty different to me - the beard has only passing similarities and the distance between the eyes and the beard is much greater on the gladiator.

Yeah, but the line dividing the two parts of the hair and the line that brings the beard to the back of the head are the same, to me, it looks like it was did purposely.
And for me, it looks like the distance between the mouth and the eyes is greater because the mouth is open.

But even myself aren't 100% convinced that de Gladiator and Ian are the same person

[Nimrod's Son]

the line that brings the beard to the back of the head are the same
The angle of that line is massively different, though.


And for me, it looks like the distance between the mouth and the eyes is greater because the mouth is open.
I didn't say anything about the mouth, I said the distance between the eyes and the beard. If you're claiming the shape of his moustache is the same, how has it managed to move several inches down his face?


But even myself aren't 100% convinced that de Gladiator and Ian are the same person
Until we get any kind of clue that isn't based on superficial physical similarities, I'm not even 1% convinced. :smallsmile: People are seeing Ian Starshine all over the place at the moment.

[Rebarth]

I don't know, it seems possible to be Ian, from what we know. Hairstyle(hair and beard) is the a bit longer, although matching. The body square's sides look the same. Maybe The OfB was once Tyrinaria, nothing says against it. I think it is him, but I can understand anyone who thinks otherwise.

[Lord Bingo]

They are STICK FIGURES! Of course they'll look similar.

[Rebarth]

They are STICK FIGURES! Of course they'll look similar.

Yeah? Well, for a stick figure comic, there is a huge amount of depth between main characters. For example: Celia and Haley. You can't honestly disavow from the fact that they look, by this comic's standards, similar. Plus the fact this this is as likely a place for her father to be at, rather than just some random place. There are plenty of reasons to believe that it's him. Anyone who believes that is justified. I just wanted to make this clear. I'm not saying it's him, I just don't think anyone who believes it is him is a fool.
...
Compared to you guys :smallmad:

[Lord Bingo]

I, for one, at no point in any way intended to imply that those who believe that one of the geezers is Ian are foolish and nor do I believe it was the intended objective of those who, like me, has argued against the idea.

[blunk]

I like to think that Oldbeard is the guy running away from the Ollysaurus in panel ten, as a throwaway in-reference.

[Luizeu]

On another note, I think Haley could be more effective. If her father is still alive she could easily buy a Sending scroll and contact him.

[Swordpriest]

On another note, I think Haley could be more effective. If her father is still alive she could easily buy a Sending scroll and contact him.

Ah, but then she'd have to trust someone enough to buy a Sending scroll. After all, who knows what that scroll seller might do with the information that a random redhead bought a Sending scroll? *Cue ominous music* :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

Ah, but then she'd have to trust someone enough to buy a Sending scroll. After all, who knows what that scroll seller might do with the information that a random redhead bought a Sending scroll? *Cue ominous music* :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:
Surely you know of the Prophecy?

[mootoall]

And in any case, if Rich did use Ian as a base template (and I don't believe he did), that doesn't prove anything. After all, Thog is a straight-up recolouring of Roy, with a set of added fangs. Well, to be fair, the Linear Guild is meant to mirror the OOTS. So that similarity was very intentional.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, to be fair, the Linear Guild is meant to mirror the OOTS. So that similarity was very intentional.
I'm too lazy to check: did Thog get a boot upgrade after strip 200?

[Xykeb Zraliv]

I'm too lazy to check: did Thog get a boot upgrade after strip 200?

Yes, he did.

[Nimrod's Son]

Well, to be fair, the Linear Guild is meant to mirror the OOTS. So that similarity was very intentional.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsSWJvlojgc

[headmonkeyboy]

And now for something totally different:

Did Haley Have a mom? (to lazy to check.)

(p.s. anyone who guesses the reference gets a cookie.)

[hamishspence]

Yes- or at least, she had someone she referred to as "Mommy":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html

I've seen the

"did he even have a mom?"
"didn't you know? Sergeants reproduce by fission- like all bacteria"

reference in the Starship Troopers novel- is that it?

[shumoko]

you guys really have nothing better to do here do you? :smalleek:

on a side note, i'm not putting my money down on anything yet but heck, the gladiator makes as much sense as just about anything else, i mean for one thing i could go completely far out there and say "belkar (being the halfling that he is) pissed off a powerful (insert magic user of choice here) who used some random spells to turn him into a human that resembles Haley's father and sent him back in time where it was found he actually becomes Haley's father and dies later in the series as event changed causing the previously mentioned magic user to not cast such spells on belkar but instead killing haley's father, thats two prophecies with one stone."

[Nimrod's Son]

you guys really have nothing better to do here do you? :smalleek:
Whereas you're here making enlightening statements like that one for The Wellbeing and Betterment of Mankind, presumably. :smallsigh:

[shumoko]

Whereas you're here making enlightening statements like that one for The Wellbeing and Betterment of Mankind, presumably. :smallsigh:

no comment :tongue: but as far as i see in this we might as well be talking magical time paradox, until the answer is known all we can do is speculate and at the rate this is going well, i'm convinced it will be either off the wall (such as my hypothetical theory) or may as well be someone we've already seen.

[ZakRenning]

And now for something totally different:


Monty Python's Flying Circus :smallbiggrin:

[Gd8908]

Well, not that I'm totally thinking a single-minded "YES", but, just throwing it out there, it would be SERIOUSLY typical if the Giant made a random, nameless NPC Haley's dad. Not typical as in he does it all the time, typical as in it would really tick me off.
EDIT: Not to say he changed the plot just to tick us off, which he's sworn not to do, but that he'd planned to do it in advance.

[shumoko]

EDIT: Not to say he changed the plot just to tick us off, which he's sworn not to do, but that he'd planned to do it in advance.

is there even a set plot to this? O_o? aside from the rift?

[Kish]

...Uh, yeah. Rich has planned out the story like any author with a story.

I don't even know what "aside from the rift" means, though I can take a semi-educated guess that what you're getting at is, "Doesn't Rich just generally improvise all his plots, except that they have something to do with the Gates?" To which the answer is an emphatic "no" combined with a, "Why would you think that?"

[shumoko]

meh, i blame my own stupidity/ignorance =/

[binyamin20]

[QUOTE=Mr. Snuggles;9427307]If you're holding a prisoner for ransom, the last thing you want to do is put him in the arena to die. :smallannoyed:
QUOTE]


Yes but the empire of blood doesn't necessarily know that he is being held for ransom. to them he could be just some shmuck that was in jail and that there is a shortage of gladiators.

[kyoryu]

i made a quick comparisson of the two characters and they look VERY similar to each other

it looks that rich even used the same base model for the two characters, look at the vector detail at the top of the bear and the style (and the position) of the feets

Definitely could be. The hair and beard styles look very similar, just more grown out.

[Rob Roy]

They are STICK FIGURES! Of course they'll look similar.

This is a pretty good answer for seeing him everywhere with the only evidence being appearance. It's not that I think you're foolish for thinking that the old man is Ian, they do kinda look similar. In fact I could see that gladiator being Ian who's aged under stress and hasn't shaved his beard. It's just that I won't believe you until you get more evidence.
On the subject of epileptic trees about Haley's dad, I theorize that in between Mr. Starshire being taken by Lord Tyrinar and the Formation of the EoB, he escaped, presumably when Tyrinar's was crushed by some other Empire. Haley will eventually get fed up with Elan being either in denial of Tarquins evil or being oblivious to it and leave to go free slaves or anything else to be away from him. During this trip she'll meat her Dad. This will lead to this subplot and the stuff with Tarquin being resolved just a bit before, or even during the Battle for Girards Gate. I also posit that Tyrinar is an alias of Tarquin's and that Tyrinaria is Tarquins original empire that he had before he got his scam he's had going for a good 15 years was started up (though that last bit is actually a rather old theory that hasn't been mentioned in a while. If it was disproved by something, can you please post a link to what disproved it).

[Raposa]

So the new theory is, Tarquin & Ian are brothers. Why?
- Tarquin had a chaotic good brother and thats why he tried to raise Elan & Nale with the same dramatic tension
- Nothing is as funny as an unintended consanguineous relationship
- Why the hell not?

Well, God did create cousins so we didn't have to make out with our sisters, so...

[martianmister]

He looks so old to be Haley's father...I think.

[doodthedud]

I've read that people age faster if they live in high temperatures, and since it's probably very warm there, the increase in aging could have something to do with him already having wrinkles.


I'd argue that they are extremely similar pictures. The beard space is likely cuz he's talking and/or his wrinkles.

HOWEVER, the gladiator lacks sideburns.

[Toper]

Wow. Uh, well done, guys.
What be the chances of that? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0740.html)

[Maximum Zersk]

Indeed. Nice one, guys.

[Cizak]

Wow. Well, a round of applause and a bag of cookies to FoE!

[Bedinsis]

The epileptic tree that has been suspected ever since Haley's ransom letter was revealed... finally revealed as true.

Good work, mate.

[Lord Bingo]

On the slim chance I'm right about this, Rich, you should turn back now.

I had a crazy notion that Haley's dad might be ...

... the white-haired gladiator that gave Roy advice on how to avoid going into the arena.

I have no proof beyond the fact hat he has a beard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) like Haley's dad and he's really good at
dodging (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html), much like a high-level rogue.

It's a big leap from "good at dodging" to "Haley's dad," but I've got a feeling that was plot-relevant somehow.

Granted, he's a bit unkempt compared to how he looked in Haley's flashback, but he's been a gladiatoral slave for at least several months. Proper grooming ain't an option.

You win an Internet!:smallbiggrin:

[Worlok]

You know, Lord Bingo, given the evidence, I think we could just make that two. :smallbiggrin:

[NegativeFifteen]

Well, its official now, the white haired gladiator is Ian Starshine. Good job everyone. Here's a cookie.

[Souhiro]

Well, sometimes we have fantasy, sometimes we have "The rule of drama" and sometimes we have The Okham Razor..

Haley's daddy, being a high level roge with enough WIS and CHA managed to survive a lot.


And Elan's Dad IS the quintaessential Lawful Evil now! Darn! That's a really GOOD character!

[shumoko]

And Elan's Dad IS the quintaessential Lawful Evil now! Darn! That's a really GOOD character!

rather deal with lawful evil than chaotic or neutral.


also congrates, though i still want to see my affor-mentioned time paradox involving belkar =/ probly wont happen.... >_> stupid good for nothing wizards....

[FoE]

You win an Internet!

I won! I WON! :smallbiggrin:

[kyoryu]

rather deal with lawful evil than chaotic or neutral.


also congrates, though i still want to see my affor-mentioned time paradox involving belkar =/ probly wont happen.... >_> stupid good for nothing wizards....

I politely disagree. Chaotic and Neutral Evil tend to be more limited in resources. Lawful Evil often can bring vast resources and organizations to bear in their quest for power and lulz.

Who's scarier - Greedo, or Palpatine?

[Ron Miel]

i made a quick comparisson of the two characters and they look VERY similar to each other

it looks that rich even used the same base model for the two characters, look at the vector detail at the top of the bear and the style (and the position) of the feets

what bear?

[Swordpriest]

what bear?

Looking at the statement, I believe the word is "beard".

[shumoko]

I politely disagree. Chaotic and Neutral Evil tend to be more limited in resources. Lawful Evil often can bring vast resources and organizations to bear in their quest for power and lulz.

Who's scarier - Greedo, or Palpatine?

i state my opinion on the base that lawful evil at least can be trusted too an extent that while evil, they at least keep their word. while the other two (more to my knowledge chaotic evil as apposed to neutral evil) would do so only until they found something that benefits themselves more.
i do not think that question is very accurate in the context chosen and so i replace it with one that i believe better fits the bill:
who would you rather make a deal with - a devil or a demon?

[kyoryu]

i state my opinion on the base that lawful evil at least can be trusted too an extent that while evil, they at least keep their word. while the other two (more to my knowledge chaotic evil as apposed to neutral evil) would do so only until they found something that benefits themselves more.
i do not think that question is very accurate in the context chosen and so i replace it with one that i believe better fits the bill:
who would you rather make a deal with - a devil or a demon?

Neither. The Demon will likely break his word, and the Devil will twist the agreement around so badly that I'll be worse off than I could ever imagine by the agreement that I thought I was making.

Look at Tarquin. He agreed to send troops to the Free City of Doom. And he kept his word.

[shumoko]

Neither. The Demon will likely break his word, and the Devil will twist the agreement around so badly that I'll be worse off than I could ever imagine by the agreement that I thought I was making.

Look at Tarquin. He agreed to send troops to the Free City of Doom. And he kept his word.

this is why you always read the fine print, as well as in between ALL the lines... but frankly its as you say, "the demon would likely break his word" though the devil twists and turns the agreement against you at least he doesn't break his word. =/ this is why in D&D you can have humans living in hell, by choice, in relative peace (by the standards of hell) but not in the abyss (to my knowledge anyway).

[Qaetar]

“They used to call me Red...”
“When the goat turns red strikes true.”

[Morty]

this is why you always read the fine print, as well as in between ALL the lines... but frankly its as you say, "the demon would likely break his word" though the devil twists and turns the agreement against you at least he doesn't break his word. =/ this is why in D&D you can have humans living in hell, by choice, in relative peace (by the standards of hell) but not in the abyss (to my knowledge anyway).

One can argue that with a demon, you always know where you stand. A devil can get you when you're feeling perfectly safe. Twisting the truth and agreements can be more dangerous and harful than outright lies and breaking promises. Reading the fine print won't help, because devils tend to be much, much better at this sort of thing than mortals.

[shumoko]

One can argue that with a demon, you always know where you stand. A devil can get you when you're feeling perfectly safe. Twisting the truth and agreements can be more dangerous and harful than outright lies and breaking promises. Reading the fine print won't help, because devils tend to be much, much better at this sort of thing than mortals.

to further this discusion and not go anymore off topic here than its already gotten, i have made a new thread: here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176407)

[Skull the Troll]

I just had an interesting thought. I wonder if Red Starshine will be taking Belkar's place in the party if/when he kicks off? I do say if because the oracle only said he'd take his last breath in the next year, not that he would die. Its a world of magic , lots of ways he could stop breathing but still be around.

[shumoko]

I just had an interesting thought. I wonder if Red Starshine will be taking Belkar's place in the party if/when he kicks off? I do say if because the oracle only said he'd take his last breath in the next year, not that he would die. Its a world of magic , lots of ways he could stop breathing but still be around.

in this i would like to go to my prediction, however, i don't think either my prediction or Haley's dad joining the party will happen any time soon =/ more then likely Belkar would become some kind of odd sentient undead thing...

more likely things will turn out that Haley's dad will end up working with Elan's father either fully or just to help keep him in check.